Ended a 27-year friendship today.

[Deep13]

On FB I posted that quote from Gingrich from 1993 about needing a health care mandate. No comments, just the quote. Well, my friend and unfortunately my mother take such posts as invitations to tag team me with their Randian, fascist crap. And my "friend" is a genuine Randian too. After they bitched about "Obamacare" I mentioned the problems it actually fixed and noted that while flawed it was a lot better than doing nothing. I mentioned preexisting illness specifically. I have several, one of which is asthma which I mentioned. This is the response he gave me.


"Why are exclusions for 'pre-existing' conditions 'onerous'? Do you think it's ok to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money? Maybe it's acceptable to you because the additional cost of your care (or ...someone elses) will be subsidized by everyone else's higher premiums.

"Other businesses charge higher prices for customers that will affect their bottom line. For example, bad drivers pay more for car insurance because of their increased risk of accidents, etc.

"Health care is no different. It's a business. Health care is not a right - it's a product that can be purchased by the consumer."

I told him I was okay with raising his fees if it meant I and others could live without misery or at all and told him I take his opposition personally because it's personal. I defriended him.

He's a funny amusing guy and I liked him a lot in high school. Now all I can think of is his selfish, callous attitude and how he would rather leave me gasping for breathe than pay a few bucks on his premium. And yeah, Obama/Romney Care will actually save him money in the long run.

[Dreamer Tatum]

1. Over a benign-looking political disagreement?

Sounds like you weren't really friends.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. I'm not sure that could be characterized as "benign".

The philosophy of Ayn Rand is about as a malignant a philosophy as has been posited in history.

Selfishness dressed up as a high virtue is still selfishness and it's not exactly a character trait one should encourage.

[pipi_k]

91. Personally, I think that a lot of people appear to hold opinions...

that, if they actually had to deal with in RL, they would not have.

I mean, can anyone really believe someone would want to deny his or her own family member, for example, the health care that person needs?

Talk is cheap.

And I don't think people realize the full consequences of the opinions they hold. People often talk tough. Many times it's all blustery bullshit.

[Mojorabbit]

166. I don't know

I have a friend of 30 years that said some really racist things to me when Obama was elected and holds the same opinion on health care. I really had no idea at all that she held these views. She is mostly liberal on social issues and it just never came up I guess but I have many times almost ended the friendship. I have instead opted for just not hanging out for long periods of time and totally avoiding anything political when we are together. It is really sad.

[chervilant]

178. Malignant

Good description. Also, this is classic sociopathy--and look at how many people jump like fleas on a hot plate to defend it.

[Duer 157099]

9. Benign? This "friend" believes the OP doesn't have a right to health care

I'd say that's damned personal.

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. Looks like a philosophical difference to me.

Like I said, if that was the exchange, they weren't really friends to start with.

[Maru Kitteh]

25. If you think "friends" are people who would watch you suffer and die for the love of money

I don't think you know what friends are.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maru Kitteh]

Asthma kills. This person would clearly watch a person suffer and die for the love of money

"would watch me suffer and die for the love of insurance company profits" does not equal friend. I don't think you know what a friend is if you don't get this.

ETA: There, I added the word "would" for you, in case the meaning of the post was wholly unclear without that one word.

[Raksha]

72. Asthma does kill. My best friend suffered from asthma all her life

and finally died when she had an asthma attack in the bathtub and couldn't call for help soon enough. Not saying this to scare anyone, but it did/does happen.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. That's why I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would take up for this "friend"

A person like that can't truly be a friend to anyone. Being a friend requires giving a damn.

[CreekDog]

90. as a Republican once told me about kids dying of asthma

"you gotta die of something"

:wtf: :banghead:

[Ken Burch]

214. If somebody says that to you

is that a defense that will exonerate you at the murder trial?

[Deep13]

53. The context of the conversation, if you can call it that, made it clear...

...that he did not care who was suffering or who was dying as long as he didn't have to do anything to help. And I had made it clear before that point that I and others I knew personally are covered by the preexisting exclusion ban. Jesus, in the 90s even the Rs agreed with that!

[Egnever]

77. Then there must have been more than what you posted

Cause your quotes dont make that clear at all. It looks to me like an argument over mandates and pre-existing conditions.

[Deep13]

105. Yeah, there was.

Honestly, I was just ruefully sating the fact of dropping a friend to what I thought would be a sympathetic audience. I wasn't really trying to justify it, just provide some background.

[SemperEadem]

218. you know what his karma probably will be?

all of his children are sick and denied health care.

[nxylas]

184. Can a Randian actually *have* a true friend?

Their whole philosophy is based on the idea that selfishness is a virtue and altruism is a sin. The looking out for each other and covering each other's backs that marks genuine friendship would surely be anathema to them.

[Deep13]

38. Nazi-ism could be characterized as a philosophical disagreement.

I pointed out to him that failure to act on insurance reform meant people were going to die and that I might be one of them. He was okay with that and was offended by the idea he might have to contribute to the greater good.

"they weren't really friends to start with."

Well, you may have a point there.

[ZombieHorde]

65. Really? Is your reading comprehension really that bad? nt

[MedicalAdmin]

157. If I may speak based on my limited observations.

Yes - their reading comprehension may indeed be that bad.

[Zoeisright]

115. By "philosophical" do you mean "ability to breathe"?

Denying someone access to lifesaving health care is hardly "philosophical". What a dumb statement. Callous, too.

[LeftishBrit]

142. Philosophical differences can be pretty crucial

Maybe the 'friend' was just arguing for the same of arguing. But I think that anyone who truly thinks that 'healthcare is not a right' has a very questionable ethical viewpoint. It makes you wonder what else he thinks isn't a right. Would he take a harsh attitude to his friends and acquaintances if they need help? Would he tell them (as someone did me once - and it hurt me far more than any swear-words or verbal abuse that I've ever received) 'such help is a gift and not a right'? Would he reject anyone who had any special needs or difficulties, just in case they might one day cost him money or effort?

[HankyDubs]

215. and of course you are qualified

to determine who this person's "real" friends are.

[abelenkpe]

35. Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ukJiBZ8_4k

It's in two parts and well worth watching both.

It's an interview with Ayn Rand where she basically says the weak, infirm, the needy amongst us don't deserve love, don't deserve our care or compassion and certainly not the benefit of social programs that interfere with culling the weakest from the herd. This is what Libertarians/Randians/teaparty fans are into lately if you ever sneak a peek into their websites and blogs or know any personally. They like to say "No Free Lunch" and what they are really saying is they don't want to be burdened with caring for others in any way shape or form and this is why they don't want to pay taxes, attack unions and regulations, talk of limiting the government, etc. It's a dangerous trend. And lately it's infecting many who never would have said or thought such ugly things in the past. I recently heard this same type of tripe from my own mother and it was shocking and heartbreaking. And yeah, I de-friended her. I clearly don't know her anymore and don't want to.

[formercia]

131. The Randians say that as long as it doesn't affect them.

Let them get turned down for Insurance or have to pay extra for being 'High Risk' and see how loud they scream then.

[Carni]

223. Yeah and half of the SOB's are on SS

And medicare.

[MedicalAdmin]

158. Wow. I would NEVER defriend my mother.

Of course she passed away a few years ago so that is a moot point, and she was a strong and outspoken proponent of universal health care. She helped build a community hospital and served on public health boards for decades. And she was Canadian so there is that too.

But I would never had defriended my Mom no matter what. That's just me. I assume you have your reasons - make sure they are valid. Not a day goes by when I don't miss my mom.

[atreides1]

207. Sometimes it happens

My mother and I had a falling out, and for years I didn't talk to her! Then she was diagnosed with terminal cancer and I was sent back home...even then our relationship wasn't getting any better...it wasn't until I got out of the army and we started talking that the rift between us was bridged.

When she finally crossed over, we had settled most of our differences. But for a short period of time I had contemplated not taking the reassignment...I'm glad I didn't, but it ended up costing me my first wife who took her own life several months before my mother died.

[SemperEadem]

222. when they start acting a fool on FB

you have to do something.

I had to de-friend my brother because he went off on fundamentalcase xtian rants on my wall page about things I choose to write on my wall page and he does not have the right to do that to me on my FB page.

My mother followed suit, being a fundamentalcase xtain, and I had to shut her down from posting on my page. I didn't de-friend her, but she cannot write on my wall.

Not everyone will tolerate reproach on a public message board from their mother on some narrow-minded BS. Respect is as respect does once you're grown.

[MedicalAdmin]

238. That makes sense. Your approach seems sensible.

I guess when I think about it I hit the jackpot in the parent lottery. My parents, my mom especially, wouldn't think of doing something like what you describe. I think she would have loved facebook...

Sigh.

[SemperEadem]

240. sorry for your loss

yeah, it's weird watching them because they didn't start out that way. It was back in 1979 that they both took this direction.

[MedicalAdmin]

241. Thanks - and I'm sorry for your loss. N/t

[WinkyDink]

76. Sounds ike you might agree with the "friend."

[Maru Kitteh]

81. +1

[demwing]

93. What a shitty thing for his friend to say...

oh wait, that was you...Sorry, I got a little confused there

[Crunchy Frog]

118. Yeah, it's pretty benign when your friend is okay with you suffocating to death

in order to preserve the rights of insurance companies to make obscene profits.

So what kind of friends do you have, dare I ask?

[olegramps]

140. He sounds like one of those sanctimonious Christian Repuk hypocrite. Who needs a friend like that?

[LeftishBrit]

146. Maybe they weren't - but this isn't a 'benign disagreement'

It's about *life and death matters* to a person with a significant medical problem.

If someone was black, and a 'friend' told them that civil rights are bad and America should return to Jim Crow, would that be a 'benign disagreement'?

If someone was Jewish, and a 'friend' told them that the holocaust really didn't happen and was all invented by Jews to gain sympathy, would that be a 'benign disagreement'?

If someone was Muslim, and a 'friend' told them that all Muslims are terrorists and deserve repressive government measures, would that be a 'benign disagreement'?

If someone had lost their job, and a 'friend' told them that all unemployed people are lazy scroungers and should be allowed to starve to death, would that be a 'benign disagreement'?

If someone really thinks that healthcare isn't a right, and that people with pre-existing conditions should be rightfully rejected for health insurance, then are they really a suitable friend for someone with a pre-existing medical condition (or anyone who might at some point have needs or difficulties)? Their political viewpoint is likely to reflect a generally 'devil take the hindmost' viewpoint, which may make them harsh and self-righteously callous in any situation where a person needs help or special consideration. For example, would they be willing to make adaptations to the OP's asthma if necessary IRL?

[MedicalAdmin]

159. If any of my friends said that to me at a bar....

... they would need the paramedics to get the pool cue out of their butts. Just sayin.

[Enthusiast]

188. PLUS ONE...............nt

[stevenleser]

153. Benign? Casually talking about how a friend w multiple health issues isn't entitled to healtcare?

That's not so benign to me.

[Corruption Winz]

202. Honestly, if my friend had said that it was a smart business move....

to keep me from breathing properly, I might have a problem with him, as well.

Just me, I suppose.

[peace13]

235. Health care issues are never benign.

Usually it is those who already have socialized medical coverage who think such things. There are many who have been priced out of health insurance and have no existing ailments, My husband and I pay 1,800.00 a month. How much longer can this go on? My Medicare friends mock me and my teacher friends found out this winter that they should have joined my fight last year because....they too are discovering the thrill of being hijacked for health care. Can't wait for the Medicare folks to choke on their vouchers. My mom actually thinks that she will get a voucher to COVER her monthly bill. That is too rich!

[TheKentuckian]

243. That's why you can't be friends with the "Die quickly" crowd.

Nothing "benign" about your right to live is not a concern with the wealthy's right to make money.

The modern American attitude about politics is pretty much silly. Of course politics are important, yes important enough to loose sleep and friends over and has always been. We wouldn't even be here if it weren't for the reality that politics can be of paramount importance. Otherwise many of our forefathers would have stayed in the lands of their families for generations on end rather than abandoning all they knew and had to come to a new place where they had the ability to believe and organize as their hearts directed.

I also just flat "don't get it" when someone wants to proactively curtail the rights of others, or destroy our common rights, or to leave us sick or dying, or to cause us to be destitute or to deprive us of our freedom as trivial or something to be "put to the side".

[valerief]

2. He sounds like a real tool anyway. nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

3. You know, it sucks you had to end this friendship over a political opinion.

I'd rather have a nutty friend whom I strongly disagree with on some issues than have this person as an enemy or that awkward former-friend status.

PAtch things up, just don't talk politics with him. The time and place to get pissed about healthcare is when you're watching msnBS or fox or one of those.

[Duer 157099]

7. It wasn't over a political opinion

it was over his opinion that the OP didn't deserve to live if it affected his pocketbook.

I'd defriend such a person too, even if they were family.

[Capitalocracy]

55. It's saddening that a mother would ever think such a thing

that if her own son couldn't afford health insurance and died of asthma, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. (I have asthma, by the way, and not being able to breathe really, really sucks.)

The right-wing is one gigantic cult. Their ideology is not in line with human values. They've twisted people's brains to the breaking point. How else can you explain a mother who's willing to say she'd watch her son die to support the ridiculous, antiquated notion that health care is a commodity for the priveleged?

[juajen]

152. IMHO, I believe it is really more simple than just being right-wing

It appears to me that a lot of people need assurance that they are special and above others. Obviously having health insurance makes them feel better off than many, and they can then feel that they are superior to those people. The minute their circumstances change, they become much more sympathetic than they were previously. I have a dear friend who is a conservative and we have certainly had our differences in the past; but, she became much more aware of the hardships of the poor when she was diagnosed with cancer and became a survivor, but one with a pre-existing condition. She had good insurance, and they continued to serve her with the caveat that they would not cover her for cancer of any kind.

[MedicalAdmin]

161. A mother who would do that doesn't deserve to get a mothers day card.

At the very least. My wife told her mom not to call the house anymore because her mom treated me like shit up to that point. My wife explained that if her mom wated a relationship with her then she needed to treat me with respect and as a member of the family.. It took 6 months but her mom finally grew up.

[Enthusiast]

190. Strange that their ideology is now

in exact opposition to that of Jesus. Who woulda thunk it?

[SemperEadem]

224. there comes a time in many "friendships"

where there no longer is wisdom in remaining friends with someone with whom you no longer have what is necessary for you to maintain a friendship, such a loss of respect--and revulsion--over their true estimation of you necessitates you walking away from the friendship.

It's good Op found out about it now and not when he needed a friend and was then, in his nadir, disabused of his notion about the "goodness" of this person, because there is none.

I'd rather NOT have a nutty friend who believes I should die like a dog in the street because I have no affordable health care.

[poverlay]

4. As painful as it is, I think you did the right thing. n/t

[Egnever]

5. Rather thin skinned of you

and not very friendly at all.

My best friend from high school is a teabaggish type, every time politics comes up we argue. There's a lot of other things we get along on though and politics comes up fairly rarely. I would certainly never give up our 30 year friendship over newt.

[Fumesucker]

15. It was friendly of the person to tell the OP he should die if he can't get insurance?

If someone told me they thought I should die I wouldn't call them my friend either.

[Egnever]

30. Really?

After 27 years as a friend with someone you have never had crappy things to say to them in the heat of a disagreement?

People say stupid things in the heat of an argument. If they are your friend you get over it.

[Fumesucker]

34. Some things you can't get over..

I've never once in my life told a friend they should die..

Have you?

[Egnever]

61. You are misqouting his friend purposefully

So you can pretend it was so heinous it deserves ending a 27 year friendship. There is no such quote in the OP.

His friend never told him he should die. At least not in the OP.

[Maru Kitteh]

66. The intent of the friend is certainly not misrepresented. The "friend" is OK with the OP suffering

and (since people do die from asthma) dying along with millions of others who need care because he loves every single penny of his money.

Good riddance to really rotten eggs.

[Egnever]

70. You are also assigning motives to someones statements that arent clear,

No where in his quote of his friend does his friend say he is ok with his suffering.
I am sure that wont stop you from your hyperbole though.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Why are exclusions for 'pre-existing' conditions 'onerous'? Do you think it's ok to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money? Maybe it's acceptable to you because the additional cost of your care (or ...someone elses) will be subsidized by everyone else's higher premiums.

"Other businesses charge higher prices for customers that will affect their bottom line. For example, bad drivers pay more for car insurance because of their increased risk of accidents, etc.

"Health care is no different. It's a business. Health care is not a right - it's a product that can be purchased by the consumer."

---------------------------------

His friend is absolutely right on a technical sense without the mandate the end to pre existing conditions would destroy the health insurance industry. There have to be mandates to cover the costs of the people that need the care.

Again no where does his friend say he is ok with his friend suffering. At least not in the quotes the OP chose to provide.

[Maru Kitteh]

84. I have bothered to read the thread.

The intent of the rotten egg in question is quite clear.

[Egnever]

85. Then you know this wasnt really his friend to begin with.

[Maru Kitteh]

97. He said he was. I take the OP's word over yours.

[Egnever]

120. If you had bothered to read the thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1130127&mesg_id=1130628

See how that works?

[Maru Kitteh]

122. You have no point and

we are bored

[999998th word]

126. +1

[JuniperLea]

200. Ha! Perfect!

Well done.

[SemperEadem]

228. that's non sequitur

it was a fucked up thing to say to someone who has ongoing health issues.

[olegramps]

144. I think you are in the wrong party.

I can't believe what I am reading would come from a Democrat who is supposed to be for protecting the working class. Health care isn't a right? A working wage in order to provide for your family including health care isn't a right? One of the major accomplishments of unions was getting benefits for their members which included health care, pensions, protection from arbitrary layoffs when you reach retirement age. I don't know what disgusts me more. Republicans who claim to be Christians and are nothing more than racists, greedy bastards or Democrats who don't believe that they aren't their brother's keeper.

[Enthusiast]

193. FUCK THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY!

I mean that. They serve absolutely no purpose. They do not contribute to health care in any way.

[XanaDUer]

211. Thumbsup

+1

[MedicalAdmin]

163. good point. n/t

[SemperEadem]

227. his friend's comment inferred that

don't act brand new. It's not a cute look.

[SemperEadem]

226. you assume that everyone has a right to someone's friendship

and they don't.

one is another's friend at that person's pleasure... and that pleasure can be given and it can be taken back and not given again.

OP's friend has no 'right' to OP's friendship. If OP wanted to end the friendship because dude went one step too far and this time,
it broke the camel's back, then so be it. Dude is a big boy... and if he's so randian, he can go off an be by himself--that's what that
hag teaches.

[Skittles]

233. saying stupid things is one thing

saying something that shows for sure a person is a cold-blooded asshole is another

[Deep13]

41. Maybe, but so what? It is what it is.

This is just one example. He made it clear to me that he is an amoral person and not the kind of person I want to include as a friend.

[Egnever]

62. Must not have been much of a friend to begin with

Sounds more like an acquaintance.

[Maru Kitteh]

69. A person like that would be incapable of real friendship anyways, as doing so requires giving a shit

about the human condition of said friends.

[Egnever]

71. Another hyperbole post

WEEEE!

his friend never in the quotes provided said he didn't care about his friends suffering he was arguing the merits of health care mandates.

[Maru Kitteh]

80. Another tin-eared personal attack from you. His friend made his intent quite clear.

[Egnever]

88. not in the quotes in the OP he didnt

Later after the OP realized what he posted in his OP needed clarification it becomes clear that there was much more to this argument and that this wasnt really a friend.

But that doesnt take away from the fact that still there is no quote of his "friend" Saying he was fine with him suffering and dying despite your hyperbolic garbage.

[Maru Kitteh]

99. I bothered to read the thread. The OP said this was a friend and I take his word over yours.

As nearly all would, over your defense of garbage.

[TheKentuckian]

244. The "friend" doesn't have to directly say "drop dead" for that to be the only plausible outcome

of their "philosophy".

Death and suffering are the most likely outcome and probably the only one.

[MedicalAdmin]

164. *sitting back*

:popcorn:

[Hippo_Tron]

44. The OP's friend should have been way more sympathetic

If this were simply a political discussion it would be one thing, but the OP has a personal experience with pre-existing conditions. A good friend who disagreed with the OP on health care would've probably kept their mouth shut at this point, or at least replied in a manner that suggests that they understand the OP is struggling.

I have two very good friends who are both Republicans. Last cycle I was working on a campaign for a Democrat. On election night they were both obviously thrilled that the Republicans won just about everything and certainly from a political perspective they were happy that the guy I was working for lost. But they both texted me to tell me that they were sorry he lost, because they know how hard I had worked for him and they were sad to see me disappointed.

If your friend's political views somehow cause them indifferent to misery then they are a shitty friend, period.

[Egnever]

67. Wasnt a comment on the quality of his friends

More of a comment on the quality of the op's friendship.

I have had knock down drag outs with my friend from high school, and yet somehow we remain friends. He is a republican tool, yet a very generous person to his friends and family. Mostly he is just misinformed and makes his political decisions based on that misinformation.

It makes me sad that he is so easily manipulated but I would never cut off our friendship over it. Of course he is a Friend not someone i talk to on facebook once in a while.

Maybe the person the OP defriended wasn't really his friend just an acquaintance from high school. In that case I totally understand but if it was a friend of 27 years then i think its pretty petty.

[Dawgs]

167. Then you're DIFFERENT. That doesn't mean the OP is wrong, and you're right.

You should just give up.

[PassingFair]

171. My husband has a friend just like yours.

I could never STAND the asshole, but he was my
husband's friend since grade school, so I kept
my mouth shut most of the time.

I also noticed that he NEVER called my husband
unless he wanted help with something.

They started to get into heated arguments during
the Bush years, and know they RARELY speak to each
other.

The final straw for my husband is when the friend
wanted him to print up some anti-French bumperstickers
and went off on the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"
until my husband reminded him that HIS FATHER WAS FRENCH
and then he hung up the phone on the jerk!

This friend KNEW that my husband's ancestry was French,
but he didn't care.

I'm glad my husband finally called him on his shit.

You must have a paucity of friends to choose from if you'd
put up with someone who believes that people should DIE
from preventable illnesses because our healthcare system
has morphed into a monster that average people can never
expect to pay for in a lifetime.

[SemperEadem]

230. this isn't about you

start your own thread if you want to talk about all the asshole ruffians you choose to remain friends with.

understand that how you do things is how you do things and it's not always the right way when it comes to how others want to do things.

ego much?

[LeftishBrit]

239. It's not just about someone being a Republican.

It's about their saying to, or in the presence of, a person with a chronic and potentially dangerous illness that 'healthcare is not a right'.

It's about their taking a harsh attitude towards an important life-and-death issue in the OP's life.

Would you expect a person from a racial or religious minority to remain friends with someone who expresses open bigotry against their group? This person was essentially expressing open bigotry against people with medical needs.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. People who would hapily watch me suffer and die for the love of money

don't deserve my friendship. YMMV.

[Egnever]

73. One hyperbolic post after another I see

Again no where in the OP's quotes does his friend say he would happily watch him suffer and die.

[Maru Kitteh]

83. Another tin-eared personal attack from you. His friend made his intent quite clear.

again.

[Egnever]

89. Not in the OP he did not

Again

[Maru Kitteh]

98. I bothered to read the thread.

[MedicalAdmin]

194. I agree with you, but if I may make a small comment.

The "friend" said something, which is not nearly as concrete as the friend "doing"somthing. Actions are much more tangible that words.

Sometimes someone is just talking some shit. Heck, I've stuck my foot in my mouth many a time (especially on this board - apologies to everyone who has had to correct my sorry ass). It seems to me that chucking someone for something they said thoughtlessly isn't the best plan.

Ultimately I think the "defriending" happened because it was the straw that broke the camels back. 2.7 decades is a lot of shit under the bridge potentially. I must admit that I did drop a "friend" like a hot potato once after a phone conversation. It was just one more incident in a long line of shit. It was finally enough and I washed my hands. I think this is likely what happened with the OP (OK - so I'm projecting - sue me).

I just think that words are much less important that actions. Example - I say I'm going to bust a cap in your ass is MUCH less important that actually busting a cap in your ass. One might sting your ego, but the other is a cap in your ass.

Cherrio everyone and thanks for a great discussion. :toast:

[OwnedByFerrets]

101. So? The OP should be JUST LIKE YOU or he's an ass? Hardly.

[Zoeisright]

116. I'd end a friendship with a callous, greedy, selfish person.

Which is what this comes down to. Why can't you understand that by opposing universal healthcare and letting insurance companies set ridiculous "pre-existing condition" riders, people are DYING?

[barbtries]

6. i know you liked him once upon a time

but frankly he sounds like a dick.

[pintobean]

10. Good friends are very hard to come by.

I'd never want to lose one to a political disagreement. I really hope you don't lose your friend.
Good luck, however it works out.

[lolly]

16. Good Friends?

It would be a shame if the OP had lost a good friend.

But that's not what he lost. Someone who says it's OK for YOU to suffer with athsma if you can't afford care (do you have any idea how much an inhaler costs?) isn't what I'd call a good friend.

[pintobean]

31. I don't have enough information to make that judgment.

There's a few sentences that can't cover 27 years. Only Deep13 can make that judgment. I hope he's making the right one, for his sake.

[cascadiance]

40. Right! I think he still needs to understand what the REAL costs of the selfishness...

... that the likes of Ayn Rand preach are. And if he wants to continue down that path and lose friends like that, then in my book he's a sociopath and not a friend. If he starts to realize that selfishness ultimately costs people friends, and if really comes to the realization that's something that he can't lose, then he's worth trying to work things out with.

As many people that claim to be "libertarians" today because some try to make it stylish, I really don't believe that all of them are sociopaths. I think the real goal for us should be to isolate those that arent sociopaths and have them start to realize that this religion of selfishness really isn't what they've been sold it to be, and ultimately is something that will cost them more than it will gain them for what they really value in life.

[999998th word]

125. Ayn Rand was a hypocrite who collected S.S. and medicare

under another name.This was arranged through her private attorneys,and a caseworker.

I had written the info down -her a.k.a. was Ann O'Connor.

Interesting-speaks volumes about the character of those who espouse her 'philosophy' of selfishness

and greed as a way of life.Thats their choice.My choice,also, would be to not deal with them as friends.

Where I see a HUGE problem with Randroids is when they want to ruin this country with legislation

and judicial decisions 'Inspired' by this bullshit.

[MedicalAdmin]

165. WTF? She had private lawyers arrange for SS and medicare?

And the case worker didn't laugh the private lawyers out the door? Wow. She must have had some serious connections in the SS office. Too bad Stalin's goons let her and her family go - perhaps they sent her and others over here as sleeper agents. She's sure caused enough damage.

[riderinthestorm]

24. People die from untreated asthma. This was way more than a "political disagreement"

His "friend" basically told him he didn't give a shit about his "friend's" healthcare. The OP said asthma was only ONE Of several PEC's. Well if they are as serious as asthma, and I'm guessing his friend knew since he's his "friend" (right?), then the OP was right to de-friend this jerk.

[Deep13]

42. My (and your) lack of value as a human being is one reoccurring disagreement.

Good friends are hard to come by. Ones like this guy are a dime a dozen.

[riderinthestorm]

45. I live in fear of an asthma attack (shivers)

:scared: If I don't get treatment and regular meds, I also have severe respiratory fall out like pneumonia, bronchitis, sinus infections etc. If I take my regular meds and see the doc for my regular appointments, it means I actually cost the system MUCH less by having my PEC under control.

Your friend was a dick to say what he did.

[Deep13]

54. Mine is usually just an annoyance...

...but it can get bad if it is damp or cold. It affects me as an irritation in my airways. It does not constrict airflow per se, but it is very uncomfortable and it can feel like I am choking.

But, hey, it's better than socialism, right? :sarcasm:

[Sirveri]

82. You don't understand Randian philosophy then. It would be cheaper if you were dead.

Then they could burn your body for electricity and reclaim the minerals for farm fertilizer.

[riderinthestorm]

109. .

:rofl:

[MedicalAdmin]

174. I run a clinic and I am convinced that Randians can't count.

They can't seem to understand that even if we cover all people with single payer that each person's average will go down on average. Which means that everyone is covered and that everyone who is currently paying for full insurance will likely also pay less out of pocket.

Given that cognitive disconnect I am convinced that Randians need to take off their socks to count above 10.

[wtbymark]

11. there are so many of my High School friends I see on FB

so many of them are right wing tools (faux watchers). Don't fret, let it go, let them go. They (and you) are not the same people you were in HS. Just be glad you werent brainwashed like they were.

[sunwyn]

12. I had to do the same thing recently. I had unfriendly someone I have known for several years.

I knew his views when we first met but still had many things in common. For my years we had lively discussions, some agreements and disagreements. But the last 2 years or so it was almost like he went crazy. I can only say that I believe it has do with president Obama and his is probably a racsist without even realizing it.

[mysuzuki2]

13. Actually, I think your friend is 100% right.

Healthcare in the US IS a business - that's the problem with it!

[Jim Lane]

195. That was my reaction, too.

The (ex-)friend has a point to the extent that the PPACA, instead of making health care a right for everyone, actually strengthens the role of the big for-profit private companies. It also tries to meddle with the marketplace to right some of the most egregious injustices that result. The result is that the government is trying to compel private businesses to do what should be done directly by government.

Of course, once the friend is eligible for Medicare, his reverence for the free market will diminish.

[Curmudgeoness]

14. Sorry you lost a friend. I hope that this was not a close friend

(it sounds like you had been close years ago but were not close now, and I hope that is the case). I piss off friends and family all the time, but I usually just do not respond to hateful things that they say in response to something like you quoted. This person is an ass. And in answer to his "Do you think it's ok to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money?" I would have mentioned that I personally did not want to force any businesses to offer insurance to anyone, I wanted Medicare For All. The businesses could start selling auto or life insurance, or close their doors. Their choice. They would not get any tears from me.

[tomm2thumbs]

17. my guess is that it wasn't this one thing - but it sounds like the final straw

it takes a lot to push people's buttons, but it sounds like enough of yours were pushed over the years that this last, big one was enough to do the trick. when finally people say enough is enough, then a true sense of self worth begins to grow. we train people how to treat us, and it sounds like you decided you won't be mistreated and/or taken for granted by supposed-friends any longer.

[Deep13]

49. exactly nt

[ClarkUSA]

18. I ended two friendships over similar political disagreements over their social callousness.

Once friends reveal their true colors, I don't hesitate: my tolerance for Republicans and PUMAs is very low. I feel good about it, even though I sometimes still miss the good times we once shared.

[izquierdista]

19. "Health care is not a right"

How many will continue to say that when it is their health?

[KeepItReal]

113. Not a single one

As my buddy says, there are no Republicans in the unemployment insurance payments line

[999998th word]

129. Even Ayn Rand she collected SS and medicare

under a different name.Her attorneys set it up.The randroids won't tell you that.

This is info that can be verified-under a.k.a. Ann O'Connor.

Her idiot followers are oblivious and refuse to acknowledge this.

I guess she wasn't quite ready to be 'culled from the herd' @ her own expense

and wanted SS and medicare help from the government-ha ha ha

.She was all about saving her own ass when it came down to it.

Objectivist -Pffft

[abelenkpe]

20. The type of person who advocates leaving the most vulnerable in our society

without needed health care to fend for themselves, who views the needy as burdensome is no ones friend at all. God forbid he ever need help from the community in any way shape or form. HOpe he never grows old.

Don't feel bad. You do not need to patch things up. I de-friended and blocked my mother recently as well over her birther/teaparty nuttiness. She has said pretty much the same type of thing to me recently. I blame Fox news. Ayn Rand was a psychopath, her followers are fools.

[themadstork]

111. Yeah, tacitly accepting their hate by ignoring it only makes things worse.

They won't change unless they're shamed.

[abelenkpe]

138. I've spent lots and lots of time attempting to discuss and shame

And trust me it's like talking to a wall. Sometimes you just have to let go for sanity reasons. After de-friend- ing my mother for the second time she sent me a text saying: I know whose arguments are the right ones and the ridicule those who haven't a clue doesn't bother me. This after quoting the constitution after the press released his long form after finding plenty of rational articles explaining why birthers are wrong to think the press needed both parents born in the US. She just viewed that info as ridicule. She's nutty.

But I agree it is important to shame and engage those you haven't given up hope on.

[themadstork]

147. Oops that's what I meant.

I mean in some way you have to make them think about it. At first it's by engaging them, and, later, it may come to separating from them. Either way they have to realize that ideas have consequences, that the lives of real people are affected by what ideas they promote. Continuing to be friends w/ someone while ignoring their hatred for e.g. the poor tells them that it's OK to dismis the underclasses, that you don't really take those ideas or those people seriously.

Plus I just have trouble staying friends with someone when I don't respect the integrity of their thought. Acquaintances, sure. But if I'm close friends with someone tied permanently to one rigid unchangeable line of thought, I'm going to get bored pretty quickly. I hate when people lose their curiousity and stop seeking outside themselves for new answers, new experiences, new possibilities.

[lolly]

22. Health care is a "product"

You know, like a new TV or an Ipod.

Of course, if you can't get it, you suffer and die, but heaven forbid you start thinking you have a right to it!

I'm guessing this "friend" does not, himself, have any health problems. He probably also thinks you are somehow responsible for your own health problems--didn't exercise enough, or something.

Of course, if he ever does come down with something, it will be "different" for him.

[Nye Bevan]

23. If he was diagnosed with a tumor tomorrow....

.... his views on this would change in about 10 seconds.

[lolly]

27. Oddly enough, maybe not

As I said in my previous post--many of these types take it as gospel that anyone who is needy (sick, poor, disabled) somehow deserves it.

For example, you hear people imply that sick people did something wrong and therefore are to blame for their condition.

Then, when they come down with cancer or MS--well, in their case it was obviously undeserved, because they certainly didn't do anything wrong.

So, for them, help is OK, but it still isn't OK for those other freeloaders.

Remember that Goddess Ayn herself went on the dole when SHE got sick.

[Keith Bee]

28. Unrec

You knew this guy from high school? I have wingnut friends and relatives whom I still love and talk to. You're being very judgmental here.

[Fumesucker]

33. The guy told the OP he should die if he gets sick and can't get insurance..

And the OP is being judgmental?

:crazy:

[Deep13]

51. To be clear, he wrote in the 3rd person, but the conversation to that point...

...was absolutely clear that I was among those protected by the pre-existing condition exclusion ban.

Absolutely no thought on the 40M uninsured. He wasn't even willing to recognize them as a problem that maybe can be handled another way.

[Fumesucker]

58. I gathered that he told you that you should not be able to get insurance?

With a pre-existing condition?

Sure sounds like he told you to just die in a little bit more vague language.

[Deep13]

103. Right.

I complained about all the people without insurance. I said it was reprehensible that conservatives expect them to suffer and die or to lose their homes. I said the reform law is flawed but at least it gets rid of preexisting illness exclusions which might prevent me and others from being treated for asthma. I pointed out that untreated asthma makes me suffer and could kill me. I pointed out that I friend (a DUer) has it worse, lost her insurance and that since she is nonproductive his philosophy is that "Atlas should just shrug her off and let her die." His response was what I quoted and then he later added that reformers have a sense of entitlement because they want others to pay for their medical care.

[Deep13]

36. The "Unrec" guy thinks I'm being judgmental.

He made it absolutely clear to me that he thinks it's better that I (and others) die of an asthma attack than have to pay anything toward health insurance reform. And yeah, I'm being judgmental. In this case the judgment is based on pretty clear evidence. I still have friends who are right wing. They don't spend their free time harassing me with Randian crap on FB. I don't do that to the stuff he posts. This isn't the only post. He also said that people who want to be insured and expect others to pay for it have a sense of entitlement. (I had mentioned that attitude on the part of the ruling class.)

[Arugula Latte]

29. I don't blame you. It sounds like you lost all respect for the dude, and

what is the point of having a relationship with someone you just don't respect and who pisses you off on top of that?

[StarburstClock]

32. I want to start a site called "Glad I Haven't Seen Your Face In Years"

Facebook and other social networking sites always remind me why I stopped communicating with people years ago, it's because I'd had enough of them then.

[RagAss]

64. Brilliant idea !!!

[KT2000]

37. tell them

they should weed out all treatments that have in any way been supported by tax dollars - that would be just about all of them including pharmaceuticals.
Tell them that every time a pollution control measure is not enforced, the result is sick people for the sake of more profit.
Tell them some pre-existing conditions start in childhood.
Tell them they have lost their souls.

[XanaDUer]

39. You can always make more friends

and recc'd.

[onethatcares]

43. tell him you're certain he'll feel the same way when his kids or grandkids

get one of those preexisting conditions directly out of the womb.

buck him, with friends like that, you're better off walking alone.

[KingOfLostSouls]

47. people's votes have consequences

why be friends with people who are voting, essentially, for you to "die quickly?"



I gave up pretending I even wanted to know conservatives ages ago.



its impossible to be friends with the kool aid drinkers, they're fucking fascists. conservatives have been pushing for a 2nd civil war for generations, fuck 'em, you ain't my brother if you support evil.

[Deep13]

48. EDITING FEATURE EXPIRED WHILE I WAS EDITING

Let me clarify a few things. This is a guy I knew in High School and college, but then didn't see from 1987ish until I found him on FB five or six years ago. So we were never best buds. This isn't the only post. Except for some posts about the upcoming 2010 Congressional elections, I try not to post about politics on my FB site. When I do, it is usually either something that is such a no-brainer that no reasonable person could dispute it or else it is just a bare fact without comment. In this case it was the Gingrich quote with nothing else. He and my mother take such posts as an invitation to convert me to the fascist point of view. I'll have a post that is two or three lines and the comments will be him--not just disagreeing--but callous, mean-spirited, selfish shit. And we end up arguing back and forth for like a dozen posts with my mother chiming in for good measure. The above captioned remark was the last straw. I just decided I have enough annoyances in my life without imposing new ones on myself. Life is to short to argue with assholes. And ones attitudes toward others is a person's real self, not whether or not he is a friendly guy at parties.

[Egnever]

79. So it wasnt really a friend.

Then defreind away!

[Deep13]

107. Guess not.

We were back then, but I guess people change.

[Ilsa]

50. I suspect he calls himself a Christian. Jesus didn't charge for healing the sick. nt

[Deep13]

57. Actually, he's a genuine Randian and atheist. nt

[Arugula Latte]

68. I wonder if he will renounce his Social Security and Medicare benefits when the time comes.

Too bad you can't refriend him briefly to ask him that.

[Deep13]

102. No doubt. There's no hypocrisy on the right, you know. nt

[FLPanhandle]

52. "I take his opposition personally"

There's your problem. He was talking about businesses and consumers generically without mentioning you personally.

A bit thin skinned on your part.

[Deep13]

56. See #48 for more context. nt

[FLPanhandle]

60. Okay, sounds more like the "straw the broke the camels back" kind of thing

Understandable now. In the OP it sounded like this was the main reason and in the context of the original post, you don't come off sounding too good. Thanks for the clarification.

[LiberalAndProud]

59. Yup. Death panels inside insurance companies are good.

Government death panels are bad.

Now explain the difference ....


MONEY IS THE ANSWER

If you don't got it, DIE. And that's the way a moral society conducts itself. We just have to get with the program Deep13. Your unfriend was right. I have seen the light.

[RagAss]

63. Wait until his health fails...and it will...everyone's does.

Then let him quote Rand to you.

[WinkyDink]

75. Did HE care about YOUR feelings? No. Then *&^& him.

[Ikonoklast]

78. Sounds like a guy that has never had a serious illness or accident in his life.

Then get his health insurance rates jacked up 1000%.

He'll learn one day, and that day will be a rude awakening for him.

[ismnotwasm]

86. There is a trend

Toward this kind of thinking. The repuke/conservatives/randians have been very successful promoting it. I can't count the horrid racist, classist or sexist sentences that start out with "my tax dollars", by people with no understanding whatsoever of what would entail a healthy, successful society. The alternative to healthcare is middle ages type death wagons. We can start picking up bodies off the street. (A new job industry) In the homeless population, this already happens. Your friend is very much mistaken if he thinks this is cost effective. Utilitarianism only works to a certain degree, at some point the human factor has to come into play or society is already rotting from within. IMO, anyway.

I also think these kind people stop growing ethically and, call it spiritually if you like, somewhere along the line. They become closed in, selfish. Unable or unwilling to truly think things through, they turn toward destructive self seeking thinking and are prone to believe conspiracy theories that threaten that selfishness. I see it in my peers, early middle age group. It's bizarre to watch and very sad.

[themadstork]

110. Doesn't help that so many aspects of our culture actively encourage this kind of thinking.

It's the perfect consumer mentality, all about the anxieties and desires of the self.

[EFerrari]

87. Let him go. There are a lot of people out there

who have access to their frontal lobes that you can befriend.

[ErikJ]

92. Tell them Romney/Obamacare sucks-we need Medicare for All

Romney/Obamacare is a huge giveaway to the health insurance profiteers. Just cut them the hell out of the picture already! Medicare for all is non-profit is simple.

[Deep13]

108. Actually, I did.

When he and (regrettably) my mother were complaining about the size of the bill, I mentioned that coverage for all would actually result in less law since it would delete the age restriction from Medicare.

[uppityperson]

94. I find it amazing how many DUers are judgmental about something they know little about

meaning the replies to you passing judgment on you.

Best wishes to you and I hope defriending him makes less stress for you.

[applegrove]

95. Ah. It actually hurts for me to hear someone say that about pre-existing conditions. I can

hardly imagine how it must have felt to you. So sorry for your loss.

[demwing]

96. Health Care IS a right - most of the world agrees. It's friendship that's a privilege.

and your acquaintance just lost all privileges.

Sorry for the difficulty of this position, I truly hope your mom comes around.

[OwnedByFerrets]

100. I agree with your decision.

[dflprincess]

104. Health care IS a right

and one that, hopefully, Americans may have someday. But not with the scam Congress passed and Obama signed. For the next several years the best we can hope for is that the "coverage" we're told to pay for doesn't include out of pockets that are so high we still can't afford to access care.

[MikeH]

106. I ended a 30 year friendship in 2005

It definitely sounds like it was the right and healthy thing for you to end your friendship, though it doesn't sound like he was really a particularly good friend. However even if he were a good friend it would have been quite appropriate for you to reevaluate your friendship. I don't think one can maintain a friendship with somebody whom one is not able to respect, and it definitely sounds like that is the case with this particular former friend.

I myself ended a 30 year friendship in 2005 after my friend voted for Bush a second time in 2004. I became friends with him in the mid 1970's when we were both students and both working at the same place at part time jobs that were sponsored by our state university. He was a fundamentalist Christian but did not fit the worst stereotypes of people of that persuasion. At the time I met him I was serious about Christianity but had problems with fundamentalist Christianity. He was accepting of that, and was also accepting when I later became unhappy with Christianity in general. He was actually a good friend; he was "there" for me many times over the years.

I was disappointed that my friend was going to vote for Bush in 2000 (anybody but Gore, and he was strongly against abortion), but I was willing to accept it at the time. However I was very much bothered when I got together with my friend in October 2004, and he indicated, without any hesitation, that he was going to be voting for Bush again. It bothered me that he did not seem to have any serious struggle with the idea of voting for Bush a second time, or any doubts or second thoughts.

I might have been able to accept it if my friend, even if for whatever reason he had problems with voting for Gore or Kerry, were unhappy with Bush in 2004 and had a hard time deciding whom to vote for and ended up voting for Bush. I expect I would have been very disappointed, but I probably would have been able to accept it and might still be able to discuss things with him. (Since we live in California, which went for Kerry, I would not have any problem with his vote having decided the election.) What really bothered me was that my friend had no hesitation in saying that he was going to be voting for Bush a second time.

And I was particularly bothered that my friend had supported the war in Iraq. He felt that it was right and necessary to oppose the brutal dictator Saddam Hussein, just like it would presumably have been right to stop Hitler in the 1930's and to (hopefully) prevent World War II.

However the one thing he said that really disturbed me was that he thought it was OK that we went into Iraq even though we did not find the purported weapons of mass destruction, because intelligence is not an exact science. To me that sounded like a way to excuse someone who was "his type" of pResident (i.e. ostensibly a fundamentalist Christian, against abortion, and did not have an affair in the White House like the immoral Clinton). I also seem to remember that he was not particularly bothered by reports of torture; I don't recall his reasons. (Incidentally I am very disturbed that Obama has continued the war policies of the Bush administration, and I think that what was wrong for Bush is also very wrong for Obama.)

In early 2005, being upset about Bush's second term, I e-mailed my friend to let him know that while I enjoyed our friendship in the past, I had to reevaluate whether I wanted to continue to be friends with him. I could not respect his politics any more. And even though I had serious issues with fundamentalist Christianity, I had previously been able to respect my friend despite his being a fundamentalist Christian. We were able to agree to disagree, and respect our differences about that matter. However I could not respect my friend's fundamentalist Christianity any more after he voted for Bush a second time. Even though my friend was himself not bigoted, intolerant, or "in-your-face", I could not accept my friend having unhesitatingly voted for the candidate who was strongly favored by those in the Religious Right who are these things.

I respected my friend otherwise but could not respect his religion or politics any more. I proposed to my friend that if we got together we could talk about old times, and about work, school, and people we both used to know. However I did not want to hear his thoughts about any controversial issue, and I did not want to hear about either my friend's or his family's church or Christian activities (and I said that to my friend knowing that his wife has a singing ministry that is very important to her). Sometimes limiting topics of conversation works with families.

As it turned out my friend and I mutually agreed to end our friendship. My friend did not want to maintain a friendship if his friendship was going to be reevaluated based on religious or political differences, or if we couldn't talk about certain things.

My friend and I ended our friendship on amicable terms, and we both agreed we could fondly remember our past relationship, and we exchanged best wishes for each other's futures.

I liked and respected my friend otherwise, but his voting for Bush a second time and being in favor of the Iraq War were not acceptable to me. And I especially could not and still cannot respect the religious faith of anybody who would support either Bush or the Iraq War.

[dana_b]

187. this is probably the most mature

ending of a friendship that I have ever read. :toast:

Sorry that it ended but as you said, at least you both can look back on the good times.

[MikeH]

245. Thanks for your nice words

:)

[Rochester]

112. Health care is a right, not a commodity for which to compete.

And anyone who thinks otherwise belongs in prison. Destroy the health "insurance" industry and make health care a government service, funded mostly by taxes and the rest by a nominal fee of a few dollars (to discourage abuse/overuse).

[Maru Kitteh]

119. To be sure, healthcare is a finite resource, but it is also a right. n/t

[aj_cd]

114. Sorry to say I understand

all too well, I had a friend, we had been there for each other for 20 yrs. After an upsetting Dr. Visit I stopped by to talk to her. She consoled me then few min later took it as opening to go on a Limbaugh fed rant about intitlement programs. She knew I depended on Medicare to pay for the meds I am on. For record I have leukemia, without these meds I die. That is fact. As I listened to her the tears came, I looked at her and said, "do you want Medicare to be done away with?' her answer was a rant about socialist programs and people being responsible for themselves. I said, "you want me to die?' she sputtered something, by this time I was really crying, and I said "do you want medicare and me alive or to do away with it and me to die". She again said how it was socicalist program and kept on with rant. I got up and left. We have not talked since.

I am so sorry for what you are feeling, it hurts, deeply. and it is very scary.

[yardwork]

148. That's very sad but I think that you did the right thing and it might actually help.

I'm sorry that you're going through a difficult health issue and on top of that you have to deal with a selfish, clueless "friend" who lacks compassion or understanding. Maybe your reaction will help jolt her out of the temporary insanity that seems to have overtaken a large portion of our country.

Maybe if more people spouting this ridiculous "socialism!!!" crap hear reactions from real people dealing with real world problems, this ugly fad might come to end. We can hope that it ends before the country is destroyed.

[Enthusiast]

196. Welcome to DU.

I'm with you completely.

[cherokeeprogressive]

117. Guess that's a friendship that wasn't too important. n/t

[Ninjaneer]

121. I can NOT believe there are people defending this guy.

Good job on defriending him!

[Maru Kitteh]

123. If you look, it's *mostly* one person. One very tiresome person.

[Wednesdays]

141. Huh...and their underlying theme is "play nice with our wingnut friends"

I wonder if the one person (or all of them) ever ranted about Obama and/or congressional Democrats lacking spine, being "sell-outs," or "acting just like Republicans." Enquiring minds want to know if there might be a big, steaming pile of hypocrisy here.
:think:

Yeah, let's all just roll over and play dead for wingnuts. :eyes:

There has to be SOME point where we say, enough is enough. And if wingnuts and their apologists whine about it being "thin-skinned" or being "petty," so be it. Eventually, it is they who will be the isolated ones, not us.

[lynne]

124. Don't confuse friendship with an acquaintance -

- and, by your description, this person was an acquaintance. He wasn't your friend and you weren't his so it wasn't a big loss to either of you. You never had a friendship-type relationship in the first place.

Had this been a true friend - one of those "through thick-n-thin" relationships that you are lucky to experience a handful of times in your life - and you let a political difference put an end to it . . . well, that would be just patheti-sad.

[Maru Kitteh]

127. Wow. How did Deep13 make it this far in his life witout the good people of DU to lecture him?

It's so awesome that so many people on DU were there all those years ago so they could bear witness to and define his 'not a friendship-type' relationship and save that information - so they could come all the way into the future and deliver it now.

Honestly, what gives you the right to tell the OP what kind of loss to feel? I don't think he's permanently scarred or anything but jeez, it mattered enough to post about it. Why the need to marginalize and invalidate everything he said?

You know what's patheti-sad? That 'not a word-type word', that's what. Oh, and thinking that being willing to leave people gasping for breath for the love of insurance company profit margins is a "political" difference. That's patheti-sad too.

[sybylla]

137. +1000

I did not click on this thread expecting to be disgusted with so many fellow DU'ers.

Apparently there is a new rule; every time someone makes a personal statement here we now have to pick it apart and delve into the person's past to make sure it's true and as presented before we are allowed to have a positive thought on it. Cast aspersions and doubts first appears to be the new standard, claim there is enough evidence for a negative take but not enough evidence for a positive take.

WTF.

[Ninjaneer]

143. Some people need to stand on their fucking soapbox no matter what. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

248. what is pathi-sad is that people seem to think it ok for friends to not

care about what effects their friends

if any one of my friends/acquaintance didnt believe in my achieving full equal rights, this would invalidate our friendship

if you aren't a good person, you aren't going to make a good friend.

[Norrin Radd]

128. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Pretty sure "Life" is dependent upon good health, hence healthcare is unalienable.

You'd think these Randian freaks out of selfish interest in self-preservation only would at the very least want people free of something like, say, swine flu or the contagion du jour. No man is an island.

[Wednesdays]

135. But...but...but...that's not in the Constitution!

If you actually READ the Constitution, it's not in there!
:spank:

(Freeper Mode = OFF)

[Puzzler]

130. Your friend's right...

... it's not OK to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money. That's why private insurance should NOT be in the health business.

[Enthusiast]

198. Correct.

Private insurance should NOT even exist.

[Balbus]

132. I wouldn't feel too bad if I was you...

A friendship that ends over silly shit like this was never a friendship to begin with. It was just two idiots that happened to know each other from high school.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

133. False pretense from your ex-friend: Health care should NOT be a for-profit business

Period. And what he uses as a point as to why Obamacare is bad ie: pre-existing conditions, is exactly WHY it should not be a for-profit business.

[OnionPatch]

134. I can't blame you for feeling the way you do.

There's something really sick and perverted about the libertarian philosophy that leads to leaving sick people to fend for themselves. I personally believe that anyone who subscribes to such philosophy is a terribly selfish and shallow human being. Sorry if that offends anyone, but I certainly don't blame you for nixing those kinds of "friends."

[WhiteTara]

136. This is a time for the falling away of the things/people

that do not belong/fit into our lives and our evolving spiritual dimension. Don't forget that since Nature abhors a vacuum, someone will fill that place who will be more appropriate and supportive of you in your life.
:hi:

[pipi_k]

145. "Evolving spiritual dimension"?

Wow...the guy merely had a different opinion on an issue.

He didn't personally screw the OP over or punch him in the face. He didn't steal his money or set fire to his home. He didn't molest the OP's children (if he has any) or beat up his aged parents. He didn't find out he had a match for blood type and refuse to donate to the OP (for example). He didn't do anything personal to the OP.

He had a different opinion.

Which is not to say I like the opinion or agree with it, but geez...

Doesn't "evolving spiritual dimension" involve something like UNDERSTANDING...or trying to understand...where someone else is coming from before cutting that person out of one's life?

The ex-friend didn't commit a heinous crime. He only expressed a different opinion.

So anyway, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of Saint or anything, but I am fortunate to have real people in my life who have been there to help and support me and a few other people I know. They may have the same attitudes as the ex-friend of the OP, but like I said above...much of it is bluster.

A person's words don't always reflect his or her true feelings, as many of us have learned quite painfully. How many of us have heard the words, "I love you" from someone who didn't really mean them?

Words don't always reflect the truth about how someone really feels.

[WhiteTara]

168. It sounded more like a difference of philosophy to me.

In some cases, it isn't good for someone to remain in your life just because they've been around for a long time.

A person's words don't always reflect his or her true feelings, as many of us have learned quite painfully. How many of us have heard the words, "I love you" from someone who didn't really mean them?
I think that person was one of those who say I love you, but didn't mean it. I say, sometimes, you have to let go. You can't fill the space with real love if you are too busy trying to get someone to love you who doesn't.

[PatSeg]

139. Health care is NOT a business

or at least it didn't used to be. That attitude is the problem. Medicine is a profession, as is teaching or therapy. Our problems started when we began looking at health care as a profitable "business" rather than a service.

Of course, I find it interesting that these same people who claim health care isn't a right, are the quickest to complain when they become sick and lose their jobs and insurance. In their case it is almost always different, somehow THEY are entitled.

[orangeapple]

177. stop paying people

to provide medical care and develop medical devices and let me know how that works out. I think you'd note a shortage of both in short order...

[PatSeg]

179. No one is talking about not paying

people for services rendered. I talking about the difference between profit motivated businesses and medical services. I am old enough to have seen the transition from traditional medicine to big business health care which includes drugs, medical centers, insurance, and medical equipment.

There are many professions that are regarded as services and people often make a very good living at them. Not everything has to be about profit in order to work.

Meanwhile, the cost for health care has gotten so high that only some people can afford to stay alive. Even with insurance, the co-pays and out-of-pocket expenses can force people into bankruptcy. I can assure you that it wasn't always this way. What kind of world do we live in when we let people suffer and die because the cost of health care is out of their reach?

[yardwork]

149. So your "friend" chose to pick a fight with you rather than support you in your time of need.

That told you everything that you needed to know.

[Courtesy Flush]

150. They don't mind collecting from healthy customers, though.

If you're going to argue that unprofitable customers should be weeded out, then you should also argue that healthy ones should pay next to nothing for coverage.

The system is supposed to take the entire group into account. Higher profits from healthy customers offset losses from unhealthy ones.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roland99]

154. asshats care about "life" except when it comes to actually being able to live

[dsharp88]

155. That's like saying people who live in flammable homes need to pay more taxes

because they may need fire fighters more and people in bad neighborhoods should pay more taxes b/c they might need the police more.

What's wrong with these people? These are basic human needs in our society.

[trud]

156. I have Republican friends.

But they are humane (yes, it's possible.) We just disagree on things, but we can talk.

I'd have a tough time with someone saying I should suffocate, though, or that good health is not a right. This guy is no loss, I'm thinking.

[Gregorian]

160. But these same people don't squawk while 1/4 of their paycheck goes toward military funding.

That is rather queer. Wouldn't you say?

And I talked to a friend yesterday, and my best friend just stopped his relationship with him after 40 years because he was quoting Glenn Beck too much. And these are all liberals. I guess the town I grew up in is more liberal than most. Just talking about Glenn Beck will defriend one.

[nc4bo]

203. And many of those same people cry like babies when it's them or their family who may be in similar

desperate situations. They will be willing to walk to the ends earth and talk til they turn blue, beg and steal if only their wife, son, daughter could get that very expensive medical care to cure a very serious illness.

Tunes tend to change when things get more personal and if it doesn't, that is one cold hearted SOB.

[wysimdnwyg]

162. This is at the core of the beliefs of many on the right

It's all about them, and if others can't live within the same rules they think they live with, it's not fair.

I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about entitlements. Now, this friend and I do not agree on much politically, but our conversations are civil and we respect each others point of view, even when we don't agree. In this conversation, though, he was talking about how he waited to have kids until he felt he could afford it. I asked him if he thought everyone who did not make above a certain amount (we did not define that amount) should not be allowed to have children, and he said he did. According to him, if you don't make enough to properly support a family without government assistance, you should not be allowed to have a family. Period. I wish now I had not ended the conversation so abruptly, but asked him where he thought he would get all of the worker class people to serve his fast food and stock the goods at WM so he could continue to buy his cheap crap if none of them could have kids to perpetuate the lower class.

[PassingFair]

169. Good riddance!

He's bad rubbish.

[savannah43]

170. The GOP zombies are all over the place.

I ended a friendship with someone I had been close to since high school. Trust me, that was a long time. The reason was because I called GWB a war criminal, and she had proudly sent two of her sons off to fight in Iraq. They are both home now, unharmed, but me calling Bush that name was "starting to piss" her off. Truth hurts to those bullshitting themselves, doesn't it? What pisses me off is people who are so unaware of reality that they not only vote against their own interests, but advocate against their own interests. The stupid just keeps getting deeper. I'm sorry you lost your friend.

[aggiesal]

172. I think the difference in the example you gave ...

between Health insurance and auto insurance, is that
the person with the high auto premium doesn't need a car to survive,
while we all need our health to survive.

Of course it's a right.

Ask your defriend why Rand Paul has not turned down his government paid healthcare.

[OKNancy]

173. heck I'll defriend someone even if we don't have a back-and-forth

They aren't true friends, but if someone even puts "tea-party" - off they go, if they cut and paste right-wing clap-trap - they go too.
If they put Republican or conservative on their profile, I'll keep them as long as they don't spout bullshit.
Facebook for me is supposed to be a pleasant diversion. I keep it that way by getting rid of creeps... and hiding all the ones who post too much trivial crap I don't care about.

[DirkGently]

175. Health care is a wee different from car insurance, in that everyone must have it, or die.

[orangeapple]

176. you do realize

you're calling him selfish because you want what is his (money he has earned), right?

Isn't it selfish for you to want what he has earned? Who are you to do decide what miseries he ameliorates with his money?

I'm genuinely curious how these determinations are formed. Is there a limit beyond which you'd stop taking money from your former friend for your benefit? Should that line be drawn by you, or by him?

[999998th word]

186. See post 129

'Talk is cheap' Objectivists seem to have a change of heart when they,themselves have a need to utilize a program available

that isn't funded entirely with their own money.

[LeftishBrit]

191. Because living in a modern civilized society is about everyone paying some taxes for the welfare of

all!

Do you not think that ANYTHING justifies people paying taxes? That it's all 'taking money from (an individual) for your benefit'.

What about roads? Would you be happy to have no roads, or to have them in a constant dangerous state of disrepair, rather than have people pay taxes? Would you be happy with no fire brigade? No police? For that matter, no healthcare *at all* even in old age?

And I'm sure that Deep 13 also pays taxes, so it's hardly a simple matter of him taking money from his former friend.

[rurallib]

197. So then would it be OK to drop people as soon as they get sick?

and therefore the insurance company would never have to pay a bill?
This is simply the best argument against health care being insured by for profit companies.
The health of the populace should be one of the top concerns of the government. Else, why not just let highly contagious diseases rage?
When we exclude some folks, we open our communities to onslaught of diseases.
But so long as we have a bundle when go, eh?

[southernyankeebelle]

180. That is why I closed my FB account. Why get upset. Now if there is a get together I

tell them before hand if there is any talk of politics I am leaving. No politics or religion. I hold to it.

[okieinpain]

181. so in other words you can drop dead if it means he has to pay

more. wonder how he would feel if it was him that was denied insurance. I've noticed that people tend to complain about the size of government until a flood or tornado comes through then it's why isn't government bigger.

[The Nexus]

182. Brother will kill brother sadly. nt

[GreenTea]

183. Health care IS a right in every caring advanced progressive society on earth except this greedy

cold-hearted selfish republican dumb teabagging country -refusing to share for the good of all....instead they embrace republican ideology...


The same assholes in your thread the hateful, racist, fear mongering, imperialistic elitist bastards.....the same uncaring greedy bastards that are bred here like flies and the color of their skin (I'm their color and I know how fucking despicable they are).

Doctrinated & cultivated by the filthy greedy pigman Limbaugh and the other worshipping the me, me, me fuck others agenda & philosophy of their hero, that pig, that slimy liar Ronald Reagan, who preached bullshit everyday to the gullible heartless greedy and these selfish assholes can't and don't care to see past these despicable, self-serving disgusting lies!

[Enthusiast]

185. Same thing here.

I can no longer tolerate the intolerable intolerant.

[white_wolf]

189. I don't know what I'd do in this situation.

My best friend is a conservative and I'd never stop being friends with him, but I don't know how close you two were. Me and my best friend are very close and he's always been there for me when it counts, so I just ignore our political differences. Of course, he doesn't sound near as bad as the OPs friend. My friend is all for taxing the rich so he's not an extremist.

[LeftishBrit]

192. Your last two sentences are crucial

I have good friends who vote Tory; but they would never take the attitude that healthcare isn't a right, or that the more you need healthcare the less you deserve it, which is basically what the 'pre-existing condition' clause entails.

[JuniperLea]

199. I guess it's okay to make a profit off human pain and suffering

Health care should not be a business... when it was made a for-profit industry, it became a blood industry taking blood money.

There are third-party profiters between you and your doctor, I guess that's okay for some people. These profiters make life and death decisions based on profit. How disgusting is that?

It pains me to see this level of ignorance nearly as much as it pains me to hear of the loss of a long term friendship.

Very sad.

[Duck]

201. I understand

The same happened to me except in my case I had known him and all his family for 45 years. As he grew older he moved farther and farther to the right living off of hate rather than love as so many do. When he told me one night that there was no separation of church and state in the constitution and that the claim was just another liberal lie...I unloaded on him and sent him six pages of quotes from our founding fathers confirming their intentions and opinions on the issue. He never replied and we have not spoken since.

I used to believe in live and let live but we can't keep holding our tongues even with our friends. Mine only listened to Rush and other radio propaganda and I'm sure I was the first to tell him he was full of s*&t in a long time.

[deaniac21]

204. I guess your mom is next.

[Lionessa]

205. "Health care.....is a business." And there inanutshell is the problem.

Health care should be a right for all, full health care, not just the free clinic kind. Healthy societies shouldn't be a for-profit situation.

[secondwind]

206. I'm sorry for your losing this friendship. But these people seem very self-involved.

they only care about what affects them. They have no empathy, no compassion for strangers. It is sad, really.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

209. Spot on.

When they become ill, that's when they start to change their tune.

[Anakin Skywalker]

208. Those "few bucks" add up, see? You are denying rich ppl their chances to buy more yachts and shits!

[pasto76]

210. welcome to the Integrity club

we dont tolerate bullshit.

[davidthegnome]

212. I understand your anger

I've had very similar conversations with members of my family. I have but one close friend who probably views the issue in a way similar to your own. The attitude displayed is selfish and callous and even cruel - but it is not deliberately so. We live in a society which is driven by profit and profit motive, it stands to reason that this is so because a significant portion of the population wish it to be. The American dream (the one you have to be asleep to believe in) is still the driving force behind a lot of republican votes and a lot of republican ideals.

I've never known anyone with whom I agree on every issue I consider important. Plenty of people I like a great deal have acted in similar ways to the way your friend did. Generally, I choose not to discuss politics with them, otherwise we would be hard pressed to not be constantly fighting.

The mind is very changeable, as all things are, but it takes a long time, especially for those who are more conservative minded. If you want to end a friendship over this argument, that's your business... but do consider what you'll lose. There's a reason this guy has been your friend for some time - and friends who can make you laugh are few and far between. Consider his good qualities and whether he might, perhaps, be worthy of continued friendship in spite of his ignorance and cruelty in regards to some matters.

Just my opinion - as someone who has also gotten really pissed off about similar issues.

[TxVietVet]

213. Well, the family issue is highly overrated to me.

I don't deal with most of what's left of my family. Besides I didn't count 'cause I wasn't the oldest. As far as friends, since Vietnam I can probably count good friends and family on one hand. The rest are acquaintances.

I have some I met in the last few months that try to insult me because I'm retired union and a democrat. I've told them I only associate with them because of my choice in my volunteer work. Other than that, they are useless toadies for the conservanazis.

If they have to insult me over issues like that, they aren't much for either a friend or family. I'd shuck 'em like an old pair of shoes.

I've done it to a couple who insult me with their anti-Obama bu$hit. Fuck 'em. I don't need 'em. Good riddance.

[SemperEadem]

216. what a friend...

Do you think it's ok to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money?

Yes. If right wing people want to claim "right to life", then the price of that is "right to health care". Too bad if they don't' like it. It ain't about them.

[theaocp]

217. If there were any justice in the world

this fuckwad neanderthal would watch helplessly as his loved ones die in pain and agony. At the same time, he could argue with an insurance representative about why they won't cover him and his. Yea, yea. I'm the bad guy. Whatever. Just don't put me in charge, I guess.

I am actually sorry about the loss of your friend, but as others have stated, it sounds like he wasn't your friend in the first place. C'est la vie. :hug:

[SemperEadem]

219. ayn rand is burning in hell

so what she thought doesn't mean squat.

[freedom fighter jh]

220. It's his argument that supports single payer

Health care is a business -- when it's managed by insurance companies. Because it's a business, it has to make a profit.

It should not be a business. It should not be managed by insurance companies.

[Carni]

221. What a TOTAL ASSHOLE!

Good for you deleting the jerk from your life. I guess anyone with a pre-existing condition can just crawl off and die somewhere (in pain!)

Has it ever occurred to this ass that he STILL PAYS when people default on their mortgages, have to file bankruptcy--go on medicaid and welfare and on and on and on because of medical debt.

People like that make my F'ing blood boil!

[DreamSmoker]

225. Bottom line

The reality is that your friend is right..
Medical insurance companies are a business to make profit...
Insurance used to be be just that in the past.. No more..
This changed back in the early 1980s when Insurance accused Doctor of over spending on treatments, Meds and such...
It cost those Insurance companies money...
Thanks to the Repukes of that time... They changed all that and now Insurance is a Business of Profits.. Not at all to insure us...
In fact all insurance is now this way...
So why do we call it Insurance anyway???
The only insurance guaranteed is profits for them...
Oh so lets call it health care... Its the same exact thing... Insured Profits for them.. Not real health care at all is it....

I to have family who are like yours... I have to avoid any Politics with them period....
All are a bunch of Fox Hounds.....

[Pacifist Patriot]

229. Sorry, but ....

Health care is not a commodity to be traded, it is a human right. At least that's how I feel and no one will convince me otherwise. I can live with my dogmatism on the matter.

[emilyg]

231. I have never ended a friendship over

politics.

[Skittles]

234. lol

you may think it's OK to retain the friendship of a cold-blooded asshole, but I certainly would not.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

247. sometimes the politics is personal. i dont see why its so hard for people to see that

when things personally effect you, and your friends dont care, what value do these friends have to you?

[Skittles]

232. that is a cold-blooded person

absolutely sickening

[aj_cd]

236. I can't believe the things I am reading here!

He did not lose his friend because of politics. He discovered money means more to his friend than his and other's suffering and very lives. This is about him taking his next breath. It is about me not dying a slow painful death. I don't want friends who will watch me suffer or show up at funeral and say, "sorry she had to die, too bad she could not afford meds"
Is that the kind of friends you want?
This is life and death, health and suffering. Cause make no mistake, these are not empty words. This matters.
For many this is a debate, but it is life and death for some of us.

[demodonkey]

242. [phone] nt

[SleeplessinSoCal]

237. been thinking on this all day.........

"Why are exclusions for 'pre-existing' conditions 'onerous'? Do you think it's ok to force businesses to accept clients that are almost certain to cost them money? Maybe it's acceptable to you because the additional cost of your care (or ...someone elses) will be subsidized by everyone else's higher premiums.

"Other businesses charge higher prices for customers that will affect their bottom line. For example, bad drivers pay more for car insurance because of their increased risk of accidents, etc.

"Health care is no different. It's a business. Health care is not a right - it's a product that can be purchased by the consumer."

It seems to me your question to him should be "When did you become a sociopath?" That is what his words expose. Pure sociopath.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

246. you did the right thing. you have a right to have your concerns validated by your friends

otherwise why do we have friends?

i would reject any friend who didnt believe in my right to get married. you should reject friends who dont believe you deserve proper healthcare.

the least we can expect of our friends, is that they dont want us to suffer. if they are fine with our suffering, why do we need them in life?