My teabagger mom heard on the radio that "Cash for Clunkers" caused used car prices to go up 30%

[HopeHoops]

"Heard on the radio" is a code phrase for "Rush said it". The opposite is true. The Cash for Clunkers program not only increased sales of new cars, foreign and domestic, but it also provided the used car market with a wealth of mostly resalable cars. I keep telling her that FOX isn't a news channel and Rush is a fucking idiot, but you can't reason with a mind that is already made up. Obama is black and a Democrat so he's obviously evil.

[buddysmellgood]

1. Does she not know that the clunkers were destroyed?

[HopeHoops]

4. No, they were not. Most of them found their way into the used car market.

Yeah, some of the ACTUAL clunkers were sent to the crusher, but if the car was viable in the resale market, that's where it ended up.

Either way, it fueled (no pun intended) the sale of a SHITLOAD of new cars.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. No. Engine kill was poured into the running engines and they were sent to the scrapyard.

Period.

All the tradeins (clunker or not) went to the junkyard.

I'm a car guy. This is like a gut punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTYL-h5_hb4

[BoWanZi]

48. Of all the things Obama has done, CfC was the one I HATED the most with a passion

Such a wasteful scam. I don't have any problems with Obama other than this stupid program.

I'm sorry but they didn't need to destroy the engines/trannies on the "clunkers". There were tons of clunkers that were far better than any of my own cars.

They could have black-flagged the VINs on the clunkers so that they could never be registered again and let junkyards at least part them out to people like me who need a better running engine than what is currently in my car.

Democrats are supposed to be all about recycling and reusing, not destroying perfectly good merchandise just so that someone can buy a new car. Seemed like such a misguided program.

Sure new car sales jumped for a while but they went flat again after the program ended.

I hate program where they destroy perfectly usable goods just for the sake of it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Yes, exactly. I found it a microcosm of the american approach to problems.

Who cares if it works fine? Throw it out anyway. And all you dumpster divers? I pissed on it before I threw it out.

Like I said, I'm a car guy. I would have LOVED to have that Corvette engine for my Chevelle. I feel the same way watching that video as I do when I see an abusive parent in the grocery store; my limbic system goes into rescue mode.

[Hannah Bell]

70. "where they destroy perfectly usable goods" = capitalism.

[BoWanZi]

78. I hate the destruction of perfectly usable goods, guess i aint a good capitalist!

I am one of those types that will spend far to long repairing crap that 'should' have been thrown away a long time ago. I have this habit of picking up broken old rundown stuff and repairing it for fun. I also repair older computer equpitment and get it working well enough for someone to use for most common computer stuff like older laptops that have broken power jacks and so on. I use a 5 year old laptop as my main computer and it works just fine.

I love recycling all sorts of technology, etc.

So when you destroy perfectly good stuff, it really bugs me. I would have been semi-supportive of CfC if they didn't forcefully destroy those engines.

[Canuckistanian]

55. Wow, I never knew that

I did some research.

"Engine Kill" = Sodium silicate, also known as "Elixir" or "Waterglass"
Here's a description of what it does:

At room temperature, 40% sodium silicate solution is a lot like motor oil in terms of consistency. Once it heats past 220 degrees Fahrenheit, sodium silicate transitions from a liquid to a solid. A solid that can’t be melted back into a liquid until it’s heated past 1500 degress Farenheit.

The end result is a perfectly good engine filled with glass.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. I know this is economically irrational, but here it is;

I hate waste. If I had been in the market for a new car at that time, I would have rather traded in my running junker for $1000 knowing it was going to continue being useful rather than take the $4000 C4C trade knowing the engine was going to be filled with glass.

Fuck that. Filling a running corvette's motor with glass is wrong.

[jberryhill]

17. No... there was no credit if the car was not certified destroyed

You need to go back and review the basics of the program.

If a VIN number of a clunker is running around in the wild, that's easily picked up.

[DainBramaged]

75. Hello my friend, I'd like to correct that statement

I did submission and supervision paperwork for a few dealers in NJ back then. One, the cars were not resold because the VIN's were put into federal and State databases to prevent them from ever being registered and you had to submit a boatload of paperwork to get the rebate from the Government. Two, they were drained of fluids, and a silicate fluid run through the engines to destroy them. Three, the recycling yards had to furnish paperwork with pictures uploaded to the Feds just like the original paperwork for the sale it was traded against showing the car being crushed. and last, they audited the shit out of everyone. I processed over 400 cars and brokered the distribution to the local scrap yards.


The recyclers stripped the good parts, like accessories, tires and wheels, sheet metal for resale, and THEY made out like bandits, but the cars never made it into market.

[AlabamaLibrul]

96. You're wrong. I couldn't find a used car in my range for months. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

7. The theory was that destroying all those clunkers

was obviously going to increase the price of used cars by decreasing the supply. It was a theory devoid of any factual basis as the program did not decrease the supply of used cars at any level that was measurable, and there was an offsetting decrease (also not measurable) in used car buyers as well.

[DainBramaged]

76. They decreased the supply of shitboxes under $3000 retail

[Warren Stupidity]

81. yes but even there the decrease was insignificant.

it turns out that there is a near infinite supply of shitboxes.

I was actually buying a new car at the time and the fucking republican new-car dealers were complaining about how horrid the program was. For the first time in over a year their lots were full of buyers, so their complaint was all the damn gummint paperwork they had to fill out to claim their loot.

[Snoutport]

2. sorry about your mom....

It is really hard to have family members at such odds politically.

I wish they'd do cash for clunkers again! but do it with hybrids only. :0)

[HopeHoops]

8. I like the idea of doing it again strictly for hybrids. As for my mom...

She's become very different from what I remember as a kid. Blacks are a threat. FOX is the only "news" station. Rush is always right. I don't have a clue what fucked her up so badly.

[Snoutport]

15. My mom has popped out a few very surprising remarks...

She is suddenly very upset about Christmas coming "under attack"... she never used to care about stuff like that. But she started going to church again and suddenly these new ideas in her head. (She's also said some anti Muslim stuff...tied to Christmas) I wonder if 9-11 did some damage in her generation that is starting to show now.

[HopeHoops]

20. OH yeah - Anyone "Arab-looking" is a terrorist as far as she's concerned.

The sad thing is that she isn't a fucking idiot. She's actually extremely intelligent - but politically she's lost in a RW void.

[drpepper67]

3. Actually....

I'm into Jeeps and Jeep products. I like to rebuild 4 X 4s.

Right after CFC it has harder to find used Jeep Cherokee parts and the prices of what you can find did go up.

Now, since gas prices are going back up, it's getting better.

[LiberalAndProud]

5. Sorry about your mom.

I think I saw a story on that when the clunker program was happening (here on DU). All those good cars destroyed and all.

Just help your mom rejoice that folks at GM still have jobs. Point out the irrefutable good and let the refutable go. Your mom won't register Democrat, but maybe you can find a peaceful place to be together.

[HopeHoops]

12. That was the idea - but most of them were not sent to the crusher.

They drag cars from Maine to South Carolina to sell them because they won't pass inspection in the northern states. Yes, the CFC concept was to crush the old cars. That just isn't the reality. The dealers got the bounty; the buyers got the rebate; and the dealers got the added benefit of selling off the drivable cars to the auction dealers.

There was no requirement that they crush the "clunkers". I remember a local dealer being quoted in the paper bragging about how he made $3,000 off of a rusty BMW that was traded in with CFC.

[jberryhill]

21. You're going to have to back that up

If credit was given for a VIN, and that VIN turned up in a later sale, then someone committed fraud.

What model year BMW qualified for the credit, btw?

[HopeHoops]

24. Oh fuck, I don't know - that was in an issue of the paper from a year or so ago.

That's LONG been sent to the recycling center.

[jberryhill]

27. Use the Google

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System

In order to avoid clunkers declared under the CARS program and that could also find their way back onto the used-car market through similar surreptitious means, the federal government set up the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) to track totaled vehicles and prevent their resale. By October of 2009, 28 state motor-vehicle agencies participated or contributed to NMVTIS, and 11 others were working toward participation. All states were required to be fully participating by Jan. 1, 2010. <40>

The CARS program required that recyclers report the Vehicle Identification Numbers (VINs) and the status of clunker to the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) within seven days of acquiring the vehicle.

----

So, uh, how do you suppose that people managed to re-sell these vehicles?

You can't sell a car without reporting the VIN, which is traceable to every title transaction.

[HopeHoops]

30. I know the source - Patriot News, Harrisburg, PA and they didn't have anything in the archives.

I just checked. But I read the damn paper front to back (except the sports section) every day while sitting on the john.

[jberryhill]

31. Would you like to respond to the part about NMVTIS and VIN reporting?

Or admit that (a) your memory is faulty or (b) the article was wrong.

If a clunker VIN pops out of the system in a title transaction, someone is getting the steel bracelets.

[HopeHoops]

36. I remember that being part of the original proposal, but that's apparently not how it panned out.

Fraud? Maybe. But they were still shipped out and sold. People traded in 4 cylinders for SUVs. That is NOT what the program was intended to promote, but it was allowed. Don't get me wrong here - I fully supported the initiative. It just had some holes in it.

[jberryhill]

45. "Apparently"

And these facts are rendered "apparent" by what? An article you dimly remember reading on the toilet?

By "respond" I meant something other than "make stuff up".

And while I'd love to know how you go about engaging in widespread VIN fraud, it is pretty clear you are not going to back up your fantasies with any data whatsoever.

If it is "apparent" that is "not how it panned out", then you are sitting in front of a big huge internet with all sorts of resources keystrokes away. I am certain these "apparent" facts of yours were noticed in something other than a newspaper article you can't cite.

And if you bother to read what I linked, you'll know how it "panned out".

[BoWanZi]

53. She might be thinking of how some dealers gave people the CfC credit but didn't participate

I remember a few stories about how a dealer would give a potential customer the 3500 or 4500 CfC credit on their car but the 'clunker' was worth far more than the credit so the dealer just resold it as a used car which might have been unethical to the original customer, really wasn't illegal. The dealers didn't attempt to extract the CfC credit from the government, they just sold the trade in as a normal trade in for quite a bit more than the CfC credit.

Personally I had no problem with a dealer doing that but then again, the ethics of that were murky at best. I remember it happening to some Nissan SUV that was worth close to 9 or 10 grand or so.

In the end, the dealer paid 3500 or 4500 for the trade in.

[jberryhill]

59. I'm not even sure that's unethical, as far as car sales go

If the customer is satisfied with the deal, the customer is satisfied with the deal, really.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

90. 11 years as an F&I manager and I could TOTALLY see that happening.

I could see a few people being gaga over the "free" government money that they settled for the "credit" rather than negotiate a deal. Especially when the trade may be an older SUV but still worth some coin as a work vehicle etc.

Still unethical but not, as you say, in the car business.

[BoWanZi]

49. Umm, crushed? they weren't crushed, the engines were purposely destroyed on video

The cars weren't destined to be crushed, they were sent to junkyards for parting out after the engines were purposely destroyed with a liquid glass type of product (completely destroyed, unrebuildable at all). From what i remember, each car was videoed for proof that the engines were destroyed.

Then the junkyards had 6 months to strip the remains of the cars then they were crushed. I remember going to the junkyard a few times to buy parts for my cars and seeing rows and rows of later model (to me, late 90s/early 2000s are later models) pickups and suvs that were in far better condition than my own cars being stripped of their parts just because the engines were destroyed in them.

I hope to god they never do another CfC program like they did.

[TheCowsCameHome]

6. The host on a Boston financial radio show say the same thing.

He said the clunker program drove used car prices up.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. Apologize to mom.

http://news.preownedcar.com/2009/08/24/effect-of-cash-for-clunkers-on-used-car-price/
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-08-09-cars-cash-clunkers_N.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/summary-box-with-used-car-prices-at-a-16-yr-high-buying-used-may-cost-more-than-leasing-new/2011/05/18/AFZncP6G_story.html

Cash for clunkers did severely deplete the used car market.

[louis-t]

25. They are basing their speculation on a flawed premise.

People who traded in their clunker may not have otherwise traded it in if not for the program. They are assuming those people would have traded their cars in anyway, the vehicles would not have been destroyed, and thus there would have been more used vehicles on the market. If anything, the demand may have risen while the supply remained the same.

[AlabamaLibrul]

97. The fact is, anything under the 3500 to 4500 price range disappeared for months nt

[Broderick]

80. It hurt the repair market as well

Laid off one person here.

[Enrique]

10. it's a plausible theory

I heard it a lot when the program was being proposed. Of course they were all declaring it to be a fact instead of a theory, that's what they always do. Well, by now there must be enough data to know whether it's true.

[LiberalFighter]

11. You should ask her

how much sooner were those used cars made available to the public? And because of that they would naturally be worth more even without the Cash for Clunker program.

[HopeHoops]

14. Not the Toyotas.

(Reference to a recent story on Toyota owners suing the company because their car values have dropped because the company fucked up on the recall thing)

[LiberalFighter]

57. They just had on the local news the problem of not enough used vehicles.

[jberryhill]

60. Part of the "problem" is that vehicle reliability really got a lot better

You can't pry a Honda out of some people's hands for love or money.

And it's not just Honda - a lot of cars last a good long time these days.

I've been shopping for a used car for my college-commuting son for a couple of months now, and while I've had to re-tune my "decent used car" parameters from what I remember of the project cars of my youth, quality used cars get snapped right off the lots.

[Motown_Johnny]

16. so President Obama increased the wealth of every car owner in America

I'm glad my car is worth 30% more now


I wish we had the same kind of program going for housing

[louis-t]

18. Cash for Clunkers was wildly successful.

There is a Ford dealership at the end of my street. For months, there was no activity, no golf carts driving back and forth shuttling people all over the lots. Suddenly, trucks loaded with Focus and Fusion models began stocking the main lot 4 deep along a 500 ft. fence and more in the auxilliary lot across the street. Within weeks, they were all sold. A month or so later, the dealership bought the adjoining lots which had a sleazy motel and an old diner and bulldozed them. Nothing is there yet, but I assume they will expand soon.

[HopeHoops]

23. That's what happened around here as well.

[Eddie Haskell]

19. The trade-ins had their engines destroyed.

They were gas hogs. My 13 mpg TLC was traded for a 30+ mpg Honda.

[HopeHoops]

22. Well, that was the concept - not the practice.

There was never a requirement to destroy the vehicles (or engines) and most of the "clunkers" that were traded in didn't get much less in mpg than the cars they were used as a discount on. Don't get me wrong. I supported the program and still do, but it had all of the usual loopholes and exclusions that every other fucking piece of shit that comes out of Washington includes. Sounds great in the press release, but it isn't the whole story.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. It was *the law* and it was adhered to.

You don't know what you're talking about and you're making it up on the fly.

http://www.cars.gov/faq/index.html

What happens to the vehicle I trade in?
The CARS Act requires that the trade-in vehicle be crushed or shredded so that it will not be resold for use in the United States or elsewhere as an automobile. The entity crushing or shredding the vehicles in this manner will be allowed to sell some parts of the vehicle prior to crushing or shredding it, but these parts cannot include the engine or the drive train.

[jberryhill]

29. It was enforced by VIN reporting

You're going to have to explain how these cars got new VIN's.

[tkmorris]

50. Yes it was the practice

This has been explained to you over and again and yet you continue to insist that these cars were not destroyed even though you seem to be admitting that in fact you have no reason to believe that other than an article you remember reading but cannot find again. If you truly believe these cars were not destroyed go find something to support that point of view or consider the idea that you might have been mistaken.

I don't think anyone can quantify exactly how much the program affected the used car market but it seems patently obvious to me that it did. 30% sounds absurdly high, but I'd have little trouble believing 10% in that section of the market that qualified as a clunker for purposes of that program.

[Gold Metal Flake]

77. God damn, it's like it was two years ago.

The outright lies about the program all over DU.

Wanna know what happened to the cars?

Engines destroyed, just as described above.

VINs recorded just as described above.

Cars sold for salvage to wrecking yards just as described above.

Previous owners were compensated for the salvage value. Salvage value estimate was included on my invoice for my new Corolla when I traded in my Colony Park wagon. I was given a check from the dealer after the deal for the salvage price differential than their initial estimate.

Engines WERE NOT legal for sale and wrecking yards posted that fact in their yards as can be seen below. I took these pictures at a salvage yard I frequent.

(Note cars marked with C4C or Clunker to indicate clunker status. Engines marked with labels and paint to indicate C4C engines. there is no ambiguity as to what is a C4C car and what is not.)

Sorry about your mom.

[NashVegas]

26. Your Mom Heard Right, For the Most Part

I don't know about 30%, but it did take a lot of decent, usable cars off the market. It didn't directly cause prices to go up, but prices went up as it became more difficult to find *good* used cars.

[TheCanadianLiberal]

32. CFC was a fucking joke

A lot of good, usable cars went for scrap, those who had paid off cars had to get new ones and are thus still paying them off and it didn't really help anyone except big companies.

CFC was one of the worst programs you've had in the US for years, our equivalent was just as bad.

[jberryhill]

33. "those who had paid off cars had to get new ones"

Whatever the fuck for?

Nobody had to get rid of their old car.

I thought we'd seen the end of falsehoods about the program, but I was mistaken.

Above trade-in credits were available if someone wanted to buy a new car, but where on earth did you get the notion that anyone was compelled to participate at all?

[JVS]

35. I liked it. I had an old minivan that was on its last legs and I was able to pay cash for a new car

[JVS]

34. It might not be the sole cause, but it would contribute to the increase in used car prices.

Cash for clunkers took a lot of the under $4500 cars in the country off the road. Cars that were worth more than that weren't directly effected, but some buyers from the lower end of the market have been pushed into the higher price range thus making the market better for sellers and worse for buyers. A factor unrelated to cash for clunkers is that with the prolonged bad economy it is likely that many people who used to buy new cars have decided that used cars are a better bargain, thus increasing demand for used cars and raising the price. Furthermore the disruption to new car buying that has been going on since 2007 (with the exception of the cash for clunkers time period) will mean that there are going to be less used cars heading to market. For example, now would be the time for the 3 year lease cars from 2008 to hit the used car lot. Their numbers will be diminished compared to previous years.

[Old and In the Way]

47. I just bought my VW coming off lease.

My Passat has 35K miles and I bought it for $13K with a 36 month bumper to bumper warranty. Comparable new ones are over $30K - the new Jetta's are where the Passats were in '07. The sales manager said that he'd have loved to have gotten my vehicle back because he could have sold it at a premium and made more than they'd make on a new one. He also said that the used car market was where the action was because more people are shopping for used than new. No surprise to me that the used car market is up. Fewer new cars sold means fewer used cars.

[JVS]

51. I thought that the new Jetta model was designed to be a less expensive car.

I remember them dropping the MSRP for the new generation, but then again after options things can be different.

[Old and In the Way]

52. My 2007 Passat's sticker was $23,800

I saw a lot of Jetta's in the lot last week stickered over $25K. The Passat now is the CC? None were under $31K. Hard to justify buying a new one when I only have 35K miles on this one. Except for a ding on the right rear panel (thanks, turkey!), it's in perfect condition.

[LiberalAndProud]

37. You know what really pisses me off?

My husband was getting lousy mileage so he traded in for a car with better mileage because the price of gas was eating us alive (he had to drive many miles). We traded and *then* Obama was elected and *then* the cash for clunkers deal. So by exercising foresight, my husband missed out on the deal.

Yea, that's what pisses me off.

[Shagbark Hickory]

38. People are keeping their cars longer. More people driving reliable import brands, no need to get a

new one every 3 years.

[Deep13]

39. I thought one had to buy a new car with that program. nt

[HopeHoops]

41. They did.

[Deep13]

44. So there is no pretense of sense in the argument relayed by the OP.

Not only wrong, but not even trying to look like it's right.

[jberryhill]

46. +1

[JohnnyRingo]

40. There is something seductive about the squealing static of AM radio.

It seems to mesmerize listeners into a receptive state that allows for suspension of reason long enough to burn an indelible image into one's head. The talents of Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity are evident when a fan leaves that virtual world and tries to convey what they "learned" to an outsider. It always comes off as easily disputed nonsense and they sound foolish.

That's why those radio talkers screen their calls.

[HopeHoops]

42. There was a time when AM radio involved music and humorous DJs.

Ah, well, that was 30+ years ago.

[Skidmore]

43. Frankly, I think all car prices have gone up

and they are not affordable now.

[pamela]

54. Does your Mom have a car?

If so, tell her to thank Obama for making her car worth 30% more than it would be otherwise.

[liberal_mama]

56. When my dad traded in his ancient Ford Explorer...

everyone at the dealership said, "now, that's a CLUNKER!" He couldn't have sold it and it got terrible mileage. He traded it in and got $3500 credit for a lovely hybrid. :)

I remember one of the rules was that you had to be able to drive it to the dealer. We all stood there holding our breath as he revved that clunker up for it's final voyage.

[alarimer]

58. I thought those cars were supposed to be destroyed, not resold.

The "clunkers" were gotten rid because they were polluting and less fuel efficient.

[liberal_mama]

62. They were destroyed. It was a program rule.

They put something in the engines that would destroy them--I think it was like a liquid glass that would harden and sieze up the engine. They had alot of youtube videos showing various clunkers being destroyed in this manner.

My husband's boss (a tea party freak) was real pissed off. He owns a used car repair shop. He was worried that he may miss out on charging someone $2000 to fix a clunker that isn't worth $300.

[WatsonT]

61. She was right, it's simply economics

anyone could have seen this outcome.

Reduce supply and costs will go up.

The 30% amount may or may not be exactly accurate but they did go up in price.

[Bluenorthwest]

63. Those cars were destroyed. What a huge set of crap this

thread is.

[RegieRocker]

65. Oh my god. The stupidity is endless and keeps growing.

[Chris_Texas]

66. Your mom is correct (though the percentages are suspect)

These vehicles were destroyed. Many of them had NOTHING wrong with them. It was disgusting really, that we have literally millions of people in this country who need a vehicle, but we want to go ahead and destroy them instead.

And yeah, used prices went through the roof for certain kinds of venhicles.

[and-justice-for-all]

67. Really? all you have to do is look at a flyer ad in the paper

for used cars and see the opposite of that nonsense. rush is a liar.

[SoCalDem]

68. In an economic downturn, people hold onto their cars

Most "used cars" are trade-ins or people selling so they can buy a new one.

The less trade ins there are, the more the ones on the lots cost.

[JVS]

79. Yup. If and when the economy ever gets robust again, look for a flood of beat up cars to hit the...

lots as their owners trade them in for something new.

[WatsonT]

83. A massive federal program that destroys used cars after enticing people to buy new ones

might have a hand in that. No?

[SoCalDem]

84. For people with the ability to afford car payments..For most folks, no

The people who had planned to buy a new car anyway jumped at the opportunity to ditch their gas guzzlers, because their trade in value was probably less that CFC program offered, and they probably could not sell them for more outright..

CFC was intended to save car dealers, and they prefer to sell new ones, but in times when people cannot afford to buy what they are selling, too many dealerships were going belly-up...and without dealerships selling new cars, the auto bailouts would have been ineffective.

The plan should have been for a 3 tier trade..

A. relatively new gas guzzler gets traded in on new fuel efficient car
B. the "best of the turn ins" get traded even-up for the REALLY old gas guzzlers that the poorer people end up driving because a dicey $800 car is all they can afford.
C. THOSE old belchers get shredded.

[WatsonT]

86. But the plan included destroying used cars

if they were going to be turned in anyway that means a deficit of available used cars for that year.

[SoCalDem]

87. and we come full-circle, as you reiterate my second point

:hi:

[WatsonT]

93. How so?

You said people are holding on to their cars.

If CFC encouraged people to buy new cars and their old ones then went up for sale that would be one thing.

But they were deliberately destroyed. So people who likely would have bought new cars anyway saw their used vehicles removed from the overall supply rather than added.

Meaning CFC netted a loss of used cars on the market compared to where it would be without CFC.

Meaning CFC was directly to blame for increase costs of used cars.

[jbnow]

94. They both have a role but by now the bigger factor is economy.

Destroying All the cars traded in for program was dumb and screwed over people who needed a car but could in no way afford a new one, even with assist.

But time has passed and the continuing shortage has to do with economy. If you lost job or fear it or have lower paying job, true for so many past full time workers,or if you just feel pangs of economic uncertainty you are not going to buy a new car. You hang on to the old one.

[Hannah Bell]

69. I read an article which debunked the "used car prices higher than ever before" thing.

With data. I should have bookmarked it.

[jberryhill]

72. Check the trash can in the bathroom

I'm sure that you and I both read the same local paper that comprehensively covered this subject.

[jmowreader]

71. The biggest problem I had with the program were the requirements...

It was more like "cash for gas guzzlers" rather than cash for real clunkers; plenty of people who had old tore-up imports couldn't trade them in because the car had to be less than 25 years old and it had to get 18mpg or less when it was new.

[jberryhill]

73. That was the point

National average fuel economy measurably increased.

That's like opening a new oil field somewhere, but without the mess.

One of the objectives was not simply to stimulate sales and get rid of "old cars", but precisely as you put it - to get rid of gas guzzling cars.

[jmowreader]

95. At the time I had a Toyota that was getting 10mpg

There was a sensor in it that was screwed up and feeding REALLY bad information to the ECU, hence making the car guzzle gas.

That car would have been a perfect "clunker" to trade in, but because of the mileage requirements, no go.

Same deal with a lot of other cars--there are PLENTY of cars that started out at 20mpg and are now down to 15.

[jberryhill]

98. When you have a program that is going to apply to millions of people

You can't just make it an individual determination for each car to be traded in. That would be silly and easily subject to fraud.

[Morning Dew]

74. Cash for clunkers sucked.

What used to be a 500 dollar beater became a 2000 dollar car overnight.

[TaupeDem]

82. This is your Mother speaking

put down the damn cheetos and koolaid, get out of the basement and clean your room, and wash your mouth out. When you can pay your own bills then you can be free to diss me on a message board, until then your access to the computer will be blocked, now here's your bottle!

[BoWanZi]

88. what in the wide world of sports does this post have to do with the OP?

Welcome to DU!

[PeanutGallery]

100. C'mon now!

Do you really need to have this explained?

[JVS]

99. LOL!

[MindPilot]

89. This is the first thread I've ever un rec'd

I can't believe I'm seeing this kind of misinformation supported on DU.

I bought my hybrid Escape with c4c. There were very specific requirements on what vehicles qualified for the program. It was more about getting gas-guzzlers & gross polluters off the road than replacing vehicles that simply happened to be in poor condition. And it certainly wasn't a conspiracy to screw poor people out of reliable transportation. The trade-in vehicles were required to have their engines destroyed and everything audited up one side and down the other.

And C4C was two years ago...its effect on the used car market waned a long time ago.

[deaniac21]

91. Build a bridge out of her!

[NHDemProg]

92. Oops.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.nr0.htm

http://centralny.ynn.com/content/top_stories/543069/used-car-sales-increase-along-with-price-tags/

"It's a sign of the times. Drivers short on cash want cheaper, more fuel efficient cars and increased demand puts a squeeze on supply which up's the price.

"When gas hit four dollars a gallon plus, every thing changed back to four cylinders and we're doing the best we can with what people are requesting and what the times are," said Nicholas.

Used cars are at record high prices. Nicholas explained he's not raising them for a profit either, just to keep up."

Sorry, but it's kind of a "trickle-up" issue. Yes, there are fewer cars (read: shitboxes) on the road, but that means the people are just forced into the next higher bracket, and then those people are forced into the higher bracket above that, and so on, and so on...

I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is what it is. Fewer cars, increased demand = higher prices.