“Rape isn’t something men do because they can’t get the sex they want. Rape is the sex they want.”

[Fumesucker]

I picked this quote up on another forum where it was quoted by another poster without attribution..

I think it says it all, really.

[seabeyond]

1. that is right on. i think that is the second one today for you.

wont remember this one any more than the other, but this is right on.

[LiberalLoner]

2. Profoundly true. Thank you for this. K&R n/t

[DevonRex]

3. Exactly. KnR. Nt

[hlthe2b]

4. Absolutely...

Certainly men (mostly) can be wrongly accused, but we simply HAVE to recognize the power imbalance in rape and sexual assault and NOT let that continue in the aftermath with further victimization of the accuser as the investigation and any court case come to fruition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I would not quite go that far

at least not for all males... but we do have a certain number for whom this is very accurate... why, or how it is done and allowed varies.

Lord know I have met in my life some real sick fucks

[Canuckistanian]

10. No one said it was for ALL males

Just the ones who DESIRE rape as their preferred method of having sex.

[DevonRex]

12. Yes. Rape is how rapists get off. I don't think sex can be taken out

of the equation. Otherwise they would simply overpower or beat the woman and that'd be the end of it. But it never is. There is always some type of sexual assault involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. And from talking with experts,

pleasure is not part of it. Pain, power, torture, on the other hand, IS. This is why many victims of rape are also beaten severely.

I remember some long talks as we tried to get the victims refuge... on that

Our first problem, well my first problem, was to also convince those behind this, to have at least one to two beds for male victims. These days they are separate.

[DevonRex]

28. That was a good thing you did.

I cannot imagine what male victims must feel.

[Buzz Clik]

37. Dunno, but it seems to me that rape is the ultimate domination of a man over his victim.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Realize RARELY... as in extremely rare

so rare it almost sounds like fantasy... women are also perpetrators.

Since we are trying to cover a lot of those myths and misunderstandings.

[slackmaster]

60. In the absence of some kind of qualifier the words "men" and "they" refer to all adult males

:nuke:

[tammywammy]

6. I think it's all about power and not sex at all. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

7. I was originally going to object to this post

But then I realized the truth in it.

Rapists WANT rape. It's not a natural outcome of a healthy sexual relationship.

[WillowTree]

49. It isn't about sex at all. It's about power.

[Poll_Blind]

8. +1

PB

[sufrommich]

9. Very true. k&r.

[Exultant Democracy]

11. It is a nice line. I think that the data on falling rates of sexual assult

and the linkages being found to the rising access to porn call that black and white nature of the statement into question.

[LiberalLoner]

13. It may not be a cause-and-effect relationship. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

20. None the less we need to take note that all violent crime including rape has been falling

for the last 20 years. During this same period our media has been flooded with sex and violence.

If we are to assume as the statement from the OP implies that rape can be categorized as at least in part a sexual act, then it wouldn't be to much of a stretch to other data related to the sexual dynamic in America and the impact of ubiquitous internet porn. There have been a number of studies that indicate that this "porn revolution" has had a ground shaking effect on the development of the modern sexual dynamic, especially in the millennial generation. This being said I think that is isn't outrageous to assume that pornography has had at least a partial effect on lowing the crime rate. It may be as simple as bread and circuses, give a lazy stupid person easy entertainment and gratification to keep them out of trouble.

Personally I think the roe v wade probably deserves a larger share of the credit then pornography, but that is probably even more controversial.

[WinkyDink]

22. You cannot claim rape per se is declining if you include it in a larger group.

[seabeyond]

26. many in law profession is arguing the rate of rape is falling. numbers are being fudge.

i have a post below that talks about it.

[Exultant Democracy]

29. Well it is, thats just a fact. But don't listen to me see post 24. nt

[seabeyond]

30. no. it is not a fact. fbi says 30-75% of rape is not reported. they cannot even get a half way

decent idea how much rape is not even reported. in the front of their reports they say.... these numbers cannot be taken seriously.

not to mention the "facts" i posted for you.

it is delusion in our world today to actually buy into your fact that rape is significantly down. any clown can look at our society and know better.

[Exultant Democracy]

64. Do you think the percentage that don't report varies widely each year?

Considering that human behavior tends to fall within a normal distribution curve when using large numbers, the idea that the unreported error would be 30% one year and 75% the next is not very plausible.

The more probably situations would be
1. the percentage who don't report remains about the same each year.
2. The percentage who don't report their has been going up.
3. the percentage of women who don't report has gone down in the last few decades.

I for one believe in scenario 3. First off as I mentioned before it wasn't all that long ago before raping black women was effectively legal. Secondly changes in our culture have brought a spot light on rape and sexual harassment, as I stated before I know a number of middle aged women who were date raped and had no recourse, a few of them were even forced by their families to marry their rapist because of pregnancy. Thirdly I think that the number of activist who are out their raising awareness have helped a lot.

If you believe in scenario 1 or 2 you are basically spitting in the face of all the famous women who have come out as rape survivors in order to help victims by encouraging them to report the crimes against them. Are you saying these brave women were just wasting their time and made no difference?

If scenario 1 or 3 is true then it logically follows that as the number of reported rapes have declined so have the number of total rapes.

[eridani]

53. I'd assign at least part of the credit to the ageing of the population.

Older people are much less likely to do violent crimes.

[Bucky]

61. Thank you. Exactly right. Also, declining rape & increasing porn are both side effects of...

increasing levels of sexual awareness in society. Perhaps men with violent hang-ups and inclinations are getting treated & enlightened more while we all get to learn new vocabulary terms like Sanchezes, runways, and Santorums.

[Fumesucker]

15. Do you have links to research results?

I'd be interested in reading that..

[Exultant Democracy]

24. Looks like I read about this on DU in fact

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5020846

but here is a link i found on the google for ya.


Porn Up Rapes Down-Anthony D'Amato Northwestern University - School of Law
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013


http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/banning-porn.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1447191/online_pornography_helping_lower_rape.html?cat=5

[seabeyond]

27. law professionals across the nation are arguing that. number fudged. here is another link

http://www.whale.to/a/reisman5.html

[Exultant Democracy]

32. While I agree with her in the fact that police forces try to lower their numbers

I almost take it as a given that the number of reported crimes has gone up in the last few decades. The organization of victims advocacy groups raising awareness deserves some credit for this. I know plenty of women who were data raped back in what the conservatives called the good old days and they basically had no legal recourse. Improved race relations also account for some of this, it wasn't too long ago that it wasn't a crime if a white did it to a black in a lot of the country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/21/us-crime-rate-falling-des_n_399927.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html

http://theweek.com/article/index/204750/the-mystery-of-falling-crime-rates

[seabeyond]

41. three women standing on my porch. 3 rapes amongst them. one woman not raped, ever. none

reported.

i have not known one woman to report rape

i will read you link later. but it is more consistently being reported tht the reports of rapes are being manipulated and not even entered as rapes if they even take a report on it.

the rape number is bogus. that simple

[WinkyDink]

21. Where are your "falling" data?

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

[seabeyond]

25. city after city is coming out those falling rates are false. that the nubers are being manipulated

per city and hugely underrepprted to the FBI. they were told to lower the numbers so they are. many different ways.

http://www.whale.to/a/reisman5.html

Now Reynolds and Northwestern law professor Anthony D'Amato's, ''Porn up, Rape down'' essay is cited by psychologists and therapists to ridicule the damage done to the wives and children of pornography addicts.
D'Amato says rape is down because ''pornography has become freely available to teenagers and adults.''
If (as the FBI claims) rape declined ''85 percent'' since 1970, dad must continue drooling (and such) over pornographic images of teens, incest, sadism and bestiality.
Tennessee law professor Reynolds, D'Amato and their ilk say ''the sharp rise in access to pornography accounts for the decline in rape.''
My earlier article cited the many faults in such jingoist zealotry.

Here are a few others.

U.S. News and World Report (April 24, 2000) said, ''facing political heat to cut crime in the city, investigators in the New York PPD's Sex Crime Unit sat on (thousands of) reports of rapes and other sexual assaults.''
One officer snarled; ''The way crime was solved was with an eraser.''
In 2000 even the FBI admitted that one district ''failed to report between 13,000 and 37,000 major crimes.''
''A 2000 Philadelphia Inquirer report found from 1997-1999, of 300,000 sex crime reports, thousands of rapes got relabeled ''investigation of persons'' or ''investigation, protection, and medical examination'' – non-crime codes.''
''This puts one in four rapes in a non-crime category.''
Lying sure reduces rape!
Other real men confirm additional cover-ups.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, U.S. Army (Ret.) a renowned expert in human aggression and the roots of violence and violent crime, and a West Point psychology professor says:
''The downturn in violent crime in the U.S. in the 1990s is very deceptive. Violent crime … is still about 5 times greater today, per capita, than it was in 1957.''
''Plus, a five-fold increase in per capita incarceration is holding down violent crime – we'd have to let 1.5 million convicted offenders go to get down to a 1970's-level incarceration rate.''
On Grossman's point, The National Institute of Justice Managing Adult Sex Offenders (1997) reported:
''The number of adults convicted annually of rape, child molestation, or other forms of sexual assault and sentenced to state prisons more than doubled between 1980 (8,000) and 1992 (19,100). In 1994, state prisons held 88,100 sex offenders compared to 20,500 in 1980.''

Noting the millions taking high-powered antidepressants like Prozac, Grossman observes, ''we medicate, incarcerate and police ourselves at rates never seen before.''

Yet, he says, the biggest factor for lower crime rates is that ''we are lying about the data.''

''The ''Crimestat'' program made cops accountable for bringing down crime ... When the NYPD police union went over the data the crime rates doubled in New York City if the proper classifications were applied.''

Other than murder (held down by medical technology), the pressure on the cop on the beat means ''police artificially 'bring crime down' and the root causes of the crime get off scott free, because we cook the books.''

Denver Police Lt. James D. Ponzi, a Regis University professor and author of ''Compstat Revealed,'' is quoted in ''The American Police Beat,'' May 2005:

''In 1998, Sharon Schieber was raped and murdered.'' The lawsuit her parents filed ''revealed the practice of downgrading sexual crimes. Compstat turned into ''Compscam'' as departments cooked the books to lower crime rates.''

Lt. Ponzi got ''e-mails from different departments all over the country regarding statistics being altered in their cities.'' Pomzi added:

''… the crime category that you want to lower in another category that is not counted by the National Incident Based Reporting System or is not in the public eye at that moment.''

''These 'lower' rape statistics don't reflect what is truly happening in sex related crimes.''

Just a few more examples:

''In 2004, the Policeman's Benevolent Association in New York City revealed officials were ''cooking the books'' to lower crime statistics.''

''Felonies were classified as misdemeanors, rapes were logged as ‘''inconclusive incidents.''

''Attempted murder in a drive-by-shooting where the victim is missed might be reclassified as ''criminal mischief.''

''LAPD reported a 28 percent drop in violent crime in 2005, the same year the department reclassified domestic assaults in which the victim suffered minor injuries or had no injuries.''

Since the FBI NIBRS counts only offense reports, not city charges, serious domestic violence – often tied to pornography use?is magically reduced by a city charge.

''On October 23, 2003, five New Orleans cops were fired for downgrading violent crime states.''

''On January 8, 2005, four members of the Broward County sheriff's command staff were fired. ''Sometimes a suspect would admit to dozens of crimes but only be charged with one.''

''In Atlanta, 22,000 crimes were left out of the crime reports. In New York, the crime rates doubled in a precinct when the proper classification was applied by the police union. The list goes on.''

''The cops try to do their job, but they are handcuffed by some feel-good administrators who will not back them on controversial issues.''

''Compstat relies on intimidation administrators will not investigate the numbers that make them look good.''

''Everyone is happy except the citizens who get nothing but a false sense of security about the safety of their cities.''

Concluded Lt. Pozi, ''In all my research, I didn't find any city where a chief was removed when the ''cookings'' came to light.''

So much for lawyerly fantasies of pornography reducing rape.

[Bucky]

58. I think those stats confirm it

Pornography is habit shaping. If a generation of men are being socially groomed to seek gratification through web-enhanced masturbating, then it only makes sense that violent assaults would suffer as an alternative venue for human sexuality. Think of it as "conservative social engineering."

[seabeyond]

62. except that is not happening and guys play this game of accepting this unconditionally at expense

of our girls and women

[dddem]

16. With all due respect, other than the body parts being violated, I still maintain

RAPE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX. I wish there were a way to separate the terms when discussing rape, and the people who rape, and the victims they rape. No one is 'having sex' in any way shape or form. Someone is violating a person, and someone is being violated. I understand that we are limited by our language, but I wish there were a way to stop using 'rape' and 'sex' in the same conversation. In my opinion, they are totally different concepts. A rapist doesn't want sex. A rapist wants control. A victim of rape isn't engaging in 'unwanted sex'. A victim of rape is being brutally violated in the most personal, humiliating way.
I sincerely am not trying to offend or upset anyone here, this is something that just really bothers me. A victim of rape should never ever feel an iota of guilt or responsibility about being a victim of a crime.
Peace.

[Fumesucker]

19. Can you suggest a better term then? Not snark, I'm genuinely interested..

Edited because I changed my mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. [phone] I wish I could find more zeros, but would look silly

[LiberalLoner]

36. Thank you so much for this post.. n/t

[Stargleamer]

38. Of course it's not sex for her. . .

but it's sex for him, sex for the men who practice it as such. By saying it this way, it makes more clear how screwed up some men's sexuality is.

[LiberalLoner]

42. As a victim of rape, both when I was a child and once as a grown woman, I can

tell you I absolutely did NOT experience it as anything I would call "sex." It was not sex. It was violent and degrading in the extreme. Violation is the best word to use for what those of us on the receiving end of rape experience.

Now, the rapist? Dunno, I suppose we'd have to ask a rapist if he experienced the act of rape as sex or not.

[dddem]

48. I'm so sorry this happened to you.

[LiberalLoner]

50. Thanks. n/t

[TransitJohn]

17. delete

nevermind

[Fumesucker]

18. I'm male myself and only see it as a broad brush attack on rapists..

Male rapists anyway.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fumesucker]

33. To what, it was an unattributed quote?

I have no idea who wrote it originally as I stated in the OP.

[Buzz Clik]

34. I'd always heard that rape is an act of violence, not sex.

Not being a rapist or a victim, I have no first hand information, but it makes sense.

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Rape isn't a sex act. It is an act of violence.

[qazplm]

39. I think rape

is a complex phenomena.

I get wanting to make it simple, and I get wanting to remove even a hint of anything other than pure evil (power over sexual desire).

But I think it's a complex thing with multiple impetuses and different types of rapes and rapists have different things behind it, sometimes, even often, more than just one.

Doesn't make it any less heinous or wrong, not defending it, because at the end of the day, what difference does it really make if sexual desire motivated it or perversion or power or whatever, it still resulted in someone suffering it...but I think understanding it is always a plus towards reducing/stopping it.

[BOG PERSON]

40. in patriarchal society power is eroticized

money, status, dominance are what drew the IMF dude to the hotel maid. all things he had and she didn't.

[chookie]

43. ?

That unattributed assertion is pure polemics - there is no logic, no substance, to it.

Is it progressive to condemn all hetero sexual intercourse as perverse violence, if only implicitly?

Men are the other half of the sky, you know - to paraphrase Chairman Mao.

If you want money for minds that hate, all I can tell you sister you have to wait....

[LiberalLoner]

45. I didn't see the post as applying to all men at all. Only to rapists. Most

men are not rapists. For the men who ARE rapists, the sex THEY want to have is actually rape. They do not rape because they were denied porn or a prostitute or their mother's panties to jerk off with. Or whatever. They rape because they wish to humiliate, dominate and harm women. Rape is the method they use to accomplish that goal.

Just because they might get off on it (generally do get off on it) doesn't make what they do simply a benign form of sex, any more than serial killers who orgasm from strangling their victims to death do what they do as a benign form of sex.

Maybe the saying could be, "Killers don't kill because they didn't get laid that night. Killers kill because that's the kind of sex they want."

[blondeatlast]

44. Truth. Thanks for sharing the wisdom here. nt

[saras]

46. Nearly always true

Some perps would prefer a violent death or worse but aren't willing to risk the consequences. Rape is pretty easy to get away with.

A few would happily settle for the violence and degradation and forego the sex itself.

But pretty much none would settle for sex without rape.

[Rochester]

51. Bullshit

The sex I want isn't rape. I want her to want and enjoy it, too.

[Fumesucker]

52. I guess that means you're not a rapist then..

The quote was not about all men but rather about those who rape.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. I think you're offended for the wrong reason.

The alternative explanation to the OP is men that can't find consensual sex are perfectly happy with coercive sex.

In other words, the OP says that not all men are potential rapists. A sentiment that I find worth a K&R.

[DevonRex]

57. Thank goodness. So glad you said it. That's exactly what it means.

[raccoon]

54. Some say rape isn't about sex, it's about power. I think it's about both.

But it's heinous now matter what.

[Skidmore]

56. Rape is about exercising power and control through violence.

It is about intimidating someone else and letting them know that no aspect of their being is safe from the perpetrator--neither their physical or psychological being. It is about rage and dysfunction. Sex happens to be the mode used.

[slackmaster]

59. Auto-Unrec for misandry

Lack of qualifiers makes the statement an indictment of all men.

[BOG PERSON]

63. good point

gender oppression goes beyond biology. females aren't always victims and males aren't always victimizers.