Let me get this straight. Today we are working on Strauss-Kahn's defense

[Skidmore]

and actively working to discount the accusation of a woman who reported a sexual assault. Why? Because rich guys don't abuse women or power? Because rich "socialist" men never abuse women or power? Because a hotel housekeeper wants to upset the French election? Because the IMF was in the process of undergoing earth shattering reform? Because that darned woman wanted fame and money and would do anything to get it? Because someone paid that woman to set him up? Because any woman that steps forward now to say they experienced something similar with him is just part of a conspiracy to bring this guy down? Because gol'darn rich "socialists" just don't ever abuse women or power.

[joshcryer]

1. Anything to bash the United States. Anything to conjure up conspiracies.

A wonderful "IMF reformer" gets nailed in the US on trumped up charges because the evil status quo doesn't want him to change the world!

http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/05/16/j_pinet-tweets-imf-cheifs-arrest-before-the-us-media-and-gets-accused-of-conspiracy/">@J_Pinet tweets IMF Chief’s arrest before the US media and gets accused of conspiracy
As can be expected in this day and age, the news broke on Twitter first. Jonathan Pinet, a master’s student at Sciences Po Paris (and supporter of Sarkozy’s party, the UMP) tweeted that he had received the information from a friend who worked at the hotel where DSK was staying (and where the apparent incident took place.). His tweet was retweeted by over 40 people – one of the first being Arnaud Dassier, a journalist who recently published anti-DSK articles when the IMF Chief was seen in a Porsche with his wife.

...

Comments on Twitter and Facebook regarding the #DSK affair have been multiplying and Pinet’s followers have more than doubled in the last 24 hours. Many think the situation looks suspicious, especially as DSK plans to plead innocent. His wife has very openly announced that she believes his innocence as well.

In some ways the internet is a curse, people actually believe anything. Anything.

[Hannah Bell]

2. because it's often the case that when the pecadillos of the rich & powerful

become tabloid fodder, there's more to the story?

is that good enough for you?

and "we" are not "working on strauss-kahn's defense.

the only information "we" have is from what's in the media.

so discussion here reflects the mix that's in the media.

[Skidmore]

3. "We" are also making the assumption that the woman from the get go

is a liar. Does that not bother you at all?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1117134#1117143

[Hannah Bell]

7. i don't know about "we". *i* have made no assumptions whatsoever about the woman.

and i don't see how linking a post that reads:

"the "he is being framed" BS is pissing me off."

demonstrates anyone making assumptions about the woman.

[Skidmore]

9. The link was to a discussion of sexual assault and its report.

by those assaulted.

And *you* are most certainly making assumptions about the woman.

[Hannah Bell]

11. please link me to some evidence of my making assumptions about the woman.

your link sent me to odin making the statement about being pissed off.

the thread topic is nadin telling everyone that any sexual act where the victim says no = rape, something that is not true in law or the common language.

i am not a participant on that thread.

i have no idea why you linked it.

[Skidmore]

19. Try the link again because it is to

a thread on sexual assault and was for your information since you were hammering away on the woman couldn't have possibly been raped in another thread but "*touching*" was apparently the offense he was being charged with.

Nadinbrezinski is right. Sexual assault/rape is not a charge people easily brought by its victims. Very few people lie about it. I am suggesting to you that, in the zeal to give this man wiggle room on a serious charge because of who he is, perhaps some consideration be given to the notion that sometimes a thing is what it is. I am less concerned with the machinations of political figures around this as they seek to game the charge. This woman deserves justice as does this man the right to confront his accusor. Assuring that justice is dispensed with a jaundiced eye toward power and wealth should not be the priority.

[Hannah Bell]

22. please link me to the thread where i claim the woman "couldn't possibly have been raped".

i have posted the *charges* a number of times.

"forcible touching" is one of 6 charges.

the charges don't include rape.

i've posted the woman's allegations a number of times.

they don't include rape.

i have never said or implied that the woman lied.

i am not giving the man "wiggle room because of who he is".

i am not concerned with whatever attempts he may or may not be making to "game the charges"

as i was not a participant on that thread until you linked me to it, that thread has no relevance to your charges that i have accused the woman of lying, or said she couldn't have been raped.

neither of which i said.

[Skidmore]

25. It is ever so much easier to

imply so you can cry foul later.

[Hannah Bell]

29. believe what you like. i have no assumptions whatsoever about the woman.

i simply don't assume that what's being reported in the media is the last word.

my basic reason for that is that in cases where powerful figures are accused of serious crimes, there is usually more to the story. and it sometimes involves dirty tricks and political intrigues.

otherwise, they typically cover for each other.

i can think of at least a couple of scenarios in which the maid is being truthful in everything she says and dsk is also being truthful.

i don't assume those scenarios are factual; i don't rule them completely out either.

so believe whatever nasty things you like. immaterial to me; i know you're wrong.

[Skidmore]

35. ....

:nopity:

[BobbyBoring]

158. You mean like

Elliot Spitzer?

[Eddie Haskell]

165. For Christ's sake people,

have you ever heard of the "presumption of innocence" or doesn't it apply to rich, foreign men.

[joshcryer]

8. Oh, it's far deeper than that. NYPD changed their story! Sarkozy's tight with US intelligence!

One of Sarkozy's people retweeted a tweet by a right wing guy who scooped the story less than 20 minutes after it happened! It as all preplanned you see! This woman is not just a liar, but she's an agent for Sarkozy because he'll lose to DSK!

[Hannah Bell]

10. and all that is a bunch of bullshit that i did not say or imply, except for one detail of fact.

but i guess you have special permission from the mods to lie about what i say.

as my rebuttals are deleted while your bullshit is allowed to stand.

[joshcryer]

14. I didn't mention you at all.

edit: I merely put together tonights insinuations from various discussions which anyone can read for themselves in the two most popular threads on this subject (and no they don't necessarily all originate from you).

[Hannah Bell]

15. but we both know who you're talking about, don't we joshy.

[joshcryer]

17. And he stayed at a French hotel! Could it be any clearer?!

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ghost Dog]

51. Here's another one for you, josh. The maid's been working there 3 years;

DSK stayed there I think it was at least six times last year; this was his first visit this year. Would it be relevant to enquire as to whether the two had, um, met on any previous occasion(s)?

Edit: The shifting story as regards the alleged time of the alleged attack, btw, is documented here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4852999&mesg_id=4853286

[Skidmore]

54. It could just mean that he likes to stay in that hotel

[joshcryer]

61. The "shifting story" is part of the "wheat from the chaff."

Last night the local news reported on a "hostage situation." First it was reported that the guy was alive, holding his toddler hostage. Later it was reported that police were trying to contact him. Then finally it was reported that for the 4 hours that the news kept breaking in, the man had killed the toddler and himself. Now am I going to think of some conspiracy about the "shifting story" or am I going to accept that the story isn't going to be told accurately in the beginning? The logic displayed and the incoherent use of thought is just bizarre.

When it came to the cell phone story it was easy enough to somehow magically believe the news was getting it wrong, but oh no, when it comes to the NYPDs timeline, nope. Nevermind that the NYPD would have to be involved in one hell of a conspiracy to be trying to pull that off, with dozens of officers all having to agree to keep the conspiracy going by changing the timeline.

[Lance_Boyle]

39. The presumption of innocence of the accused, at least in the US, trumps

the desire to take at face value every accusation leveled. No, the presumption of innocence does not bother me in the least. If it bothers you so much in relation to sexual assault charges, ask whether it bothers you that badly when the charges are fraud or shoplifting. If your response is different, that's a problem with YOU, not the legal system.

[Skidmore]

40. You also have the right to demand justice when harm has been

done to you and because an accusation has been made, it does not always follow that it is false. The man will have his day in court and this woman deserves her chance to demand justice.

[Lance_Boyle]

44. Agreed completely.

My previous response merely points out that the presumption of innocence of the accused *requires* that the accuser can be disbelieved, and this is not a bad thing. "Accuser" is different from "liar," and the trial itself decides which is accurate.

[Skidmore]

45. My main objection to the threads this morning is the

focus on the notion that this Strauss-Kahn has been framed by nefarious shadow figures for equally shadowy reasons. The woman making the charge is lost in this tomfoolery and so is the gravity of the charge made. The case is not just about a wealthy international figure but is also about a woman who does not have access to wealth or power.

[JTFrog]

47. And the swim club wasn't racist, and the pa school wasn't spying,

and there is nothing to see here. Move along...

:eyes:

[Skidmore]

48. What?

[JTFrog]

50. Just saying...

You're wasting your time with that poster.

:shrug:

[meow mix]

12. you again...lol figures.

so transparent. :rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

16. hey the gang's all here. & i do mean, "gang".

[JTFrog]

28. Yep, never misses a beat. n/t

[themadstork]

75. Sexual assault is a pecadillo?

[DevonRex]

119. That made my jaw drop. I can't believe it took so long for someone to mention it. Nt

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

144. Yes that is what was posted. It's disgusting, isn't it?

You're right, that attitude is what makes so many rapes go unreported. I did not report mine. And I feel guilty about that, too. In my defense, I was a child. And terrified. Turned out that not reporting it did not spare me the humiliation. Long story.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Hugs

Here is the PSA I posted on the subject on WHAT IT IS.

I could, thankfully just as an advocate, write volumes on the guilt as well... and how the legal system don't help either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1117134

But what ignored wrote, unfortunately, is a common attitude still. Some of the media reportage... (honey trap comes to mind) is GOING THERE. Next will come what she was wearing, or my all time favorite, HE WAS NEKID, he could not help himself. (Yes I heard this one, in the flesh)

[DevonRex]

149. OMFG! Who knew that a man's self control comes from his clothing?

Great PSA by the way.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. This is a path to tred very, very carefully on,

There was another case where a seemingly sympathetic victim and a severely unlikable set accused led people to gloss over some pretty improbable elements of the accusation. I'm not saying that is the case here but skepticism isn't unwarranted. The treatment of the accused could be driven not by the perceived strength of the case but his potential as a flight risk.

[girl gone mad]

5. NYT: Arrest of IMF's Most Magnificent Man Seen as Ending the World

NYT: Arrest of IMF's Most Magnificent Man Seen as Ending the World
http://www.thedailybell.com/2307/Arrest-of-IMFs-Most-Magnificent-Man-Seen-as-Ending-the-World.html

The mainstream media was in visible mourning yesterday with dominant social themes and sub dominant social themes pummeling the innocent Western world. Dominique Strauss-Kahn, whose alleged predilection for forcible seduction was apparently an open secret, was removed from a plane over the weekend and charged with sexual assault in America. With this simple act, American law enforcement unleashed a thousand elite memes, as Helen of Troy once was responsible for a thousand ships.

In no particular order they include the rigor and uncorrupt ability of American law enforcement, the equal treatment under the law in America for everyone (which can be seen by the 99 percent Federal conviction rate) and perhaps most importantly The End of the World as We Know It Following Arrest of This Irreplaceable Choo-Choo of Prosperity.

This last meme is the one that was being flogged the most by the mainstream media. We can see it clearly in the New York Times article excerpted above. Without Strauss-Kahn's brilliance, work ethic (and insistence on fresh flowers every day at IMF's Washington headquarters), a number of critical negotiations were said to be jeopardized.

(snip)

Instead we will likely be subjected to more media spin and more articles like the one in the New York Times bemoaning the fate of Irreplaceable Men. It is part of the larger dominant social theme that some people are simply born to rule others and that it is no accident that the power elite has the money and power it does. We don't believe it of course. The power elite gains its power by illegally manipulating government rules for personal gain – and there's nothing especially admirable about these sorts of activities.

[Skidmore]

6. "Forcible seduction?"

[Blasphemer]

92. No kidding - WTF is "forcible seduction"?

He's an alleged rapist - I don't see why they couldn't print just that.

[joshcryer]

13. I could pretty much sit down and write thousand word screeds about articles on that site...

...but I have to say that article just exudes some brilliant sarcasm and jabs. Kudos to the author for being able to keep it up for so many paragraphs.

[Prometheus Bound]

18. I see he failed the entrance examination for École nationale d'administration.

Can't be that much of an intellectual superman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique_Strauss-Kahn

[meow mix]

21. excellent opportunity for our friendly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyophYBP_w4&feature=related

[sendero]

23. This guy has..

... quite the history. And he's been allowed to get away with lots of stuff in the past. It's possible he thought he, being all powerful and all, could easily get away with raping a black chamber maid.

These sorts of cases are difficult because there is often no real physical evidence. But the police evidently took her quite seriously and that means something.

[Skidmore]

24. Yes, it does.

And I'm glad they are taking her seriously. I read that she had worked there for a good number of years and she is an immigrant too. She is a brave woman to step forward as she has. Sometimes you need to consider the source and of the two individuals in this case, she certainly has credibility.

[joshcryer]

26. It's your typical case (that you hear about), imho. She reportedly didn't want to...

...come forward, and she did. How often do you read about that when it comes to sexual assault victims? It's in so many of the reports it breaks your heart. The more women (and of course men or trans) that come forward the better our society is for it. How many people don't step forward when it happens to them?

[Skidmore]

27. Here is an article I found which gives more information on her background.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387733/Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-Maid-allegedly-raped-IMF-chief-scared-holding-ang

[joshcryer]

30. Your link doesn't work but I think I found the article.

I actually don't know if I wish to comment further because I might have to bite my tongue. This is beginning to upset me, though.

Put it this way, I believe there may be a racial element, but I really am not going to comment further.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

32. It seems that all a rich guy has to do is to call himself a "socialist"

and certain DUers will then automatically jump to his defense, whatever crime he is accused of.

Given this guy's history, and the queue of women coming out of the woodwork to say that he did the same thing to them, he is obviously guilty. The conspiracy theorists are just making themselves look ridiculous.

Oh, and the "he's so rich, he could just have hired a hooker, so he's obviously not guilty" brigade are just betraying their utter ignorance of the crime of rape.

[joshcryer]

34. Excellent observation.

[TorchTheWitch]

43. BINGO

That's exactly what it is.

[sufrommich]

62. Yep. nt

[Broderick]

97. +1

It isn't about sex. It is about Power and control. Rape that is.

[blondeatlast]

106. He's a "socialist" in name only. As to the your last sentence--yes; I'm so damn sick

of that maw I wanna punch the next person who says it.

[Dorian Gray]

113. Pretty much.

[DevonRex]

120. Yep.

Or a leaker.

[JI7]

159. yup, Rape has never been a crime based on Class

and i find the whole comparison to just hiring a hooker kind of offensive.

[ecstatic]

33. Apparently, everyone gets the benefit of the doubt *except* Pres. Obama

Even Bin Laden! :crazy:

[seabeyond]

36. i heard a new one. french are more accepting of "bad behavior" than americans.

this was a first for me. all these years people on du has been holding up how much more FREE the french are in their sexuality adn all along, it is abusing women and the people allowing and accepting. american women are such prudes they dont allow men to mouth rape them.

i dont think i have had enough coffee yet.

[Skidmore]

37. Mindnumbing and gutwrenching, isn't it?

[joshcryer]

38. I saw that too and I didn't have a response.

[Prometheus Bound]

42. To be fair, I think the by 'bad behavior' they mean 'fooling around', not sexual assault and rape.

[seabeyond]

46. i am pretty sure they were referencing this behavior. this man, great seducer, lady's man,

is known for this behavior and this is what the french has given him as a title.

on edit... for the record, not all that admiring of your interpretation either.

[Prometheus Bound]

58. I just object to the implication the French are more accepting of rape.

I doubt that's what the person who said that meant. If I'm wrong the person is an idiot.

[seabeyond]

59. polenski? i have no reason to believe otherwise. they check out nothing that happens

in person life. it is no ones business. so why wouldnt it be more acceptable since people are not held accountable.

[WinkyDink]

69. What??

[reggie the dog]

115. no, the french are more tolerant of affairs, not rape

and that goes for women politicians too

[seabeyond]

i am thinking you are wrong.

2007: After he IMF managing director in 2007, Jean Quatremer, a journalist at Libération, wrote: "The only real problem for Strauss-Kahn, is his relation to women. Too forward, he often brushes with harassment. It is a problem known to the media but that nobody talks about (we are in France)."



"Like all great political animals, he has trouble controlling himself." The French press quote President Nicolas Sarkozy as warning Mr Strauss-Kahn before his Washington appointment, saying: "You know, over there they don't joke about this sort of thing. Your life will be passed under a magnifying glass. Avoid taking the lift alone with interns. France cannot permit a scandal."


they knew about this man. he has done in past. they joke. they laugh. great seducer. by force.

[reggie the dog]

124. that may indeed be the case in the good ole boys club of leaders

but most french people i know and live around take rape very seriously but could care less if a politician has an affair, so long as it is not with their wife or husband!

[seabeyond]

129. polanski. raping of child. a joke for them. they protected him.

no one but the right cares about affairs either, in the u.s. so what is all this goddamn sophisication the french have over the u.s. besides snickering, dismissing, allow assaults and rape by their men.

[reggie the dog]

134. the people didnt protect him

the good old boys club politican did but most french people in the polls i read wanted polenski sent to the usa for trial.

[joshcryer]

63. The Guardian has an interesting take: Don't let Dominique Strauss-Kahn become the victim

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media">Don't let Dominique Strauss-Kahn become the victim
The events that led to the arrest of Dominique Strauss-Kahn in New York are not yet fully known, but the media discourse surrounding the attempted rape charge confirms, once again that, when a rape or sexual assault is reported on this side of the Atlantic, the alleged perpetrator quickly morphs into victim – and vice versa.

The news of Strauss-Kahn's arrest in New York for allegedly assaulting a housekeeper of the Sofitel hotel where he was staying prompted astonishment: how could this successful politician take the risk of committing an offence that could lead, in the US, to 30 years behind bars? Conversely, if this was actually a political conspiracy, what would the motive be? Friends and allies were certainly quick to rush to his defence: Bernard-Henri Lévy vouched for his good character in the Daily Beast and Robert Badinter (husband of French feminist personality Élisabeth Badinter) ferociously insisted that he had been unfairly and deliberately "destroyed before any trial" on French radio. Either way, the spotlight focuses on the ruined politician, and not his alleged victim.

Must read editorial.

[seabeyond]

70. "a game of seduction. honey trap. a joke. " i was told he is not old, not saggin and baggin, a

catch. 62? old? no way he is hot

wtf

thanks for this. i want to start a new thread with this article. do you mind?

[joshcryer]

71. Not at all.

I would have posted it but I must get going, already getting late to work.

[seabeyond]

thanks. nt

[reggie the dog]

114. no, you are missing the point

if he forced the woman to give him oral sex the french will be very offended and say he is a disgrace. if it turns out that it was consensual cheating on his wife french people really wont care and his political career will be fine.

[seabeyond]

126. wrong. "The code of silence reigns." " claims of sexual violence into knowing jokes"

In France, the case has swept to the top of the news agenda. But it has done so with an unequivocal message: poor DSK! The photographs of a wealthy and powerful man slumped and unshaven in the dock have evoked pity and sympathy – Martine Aubry, first secretary of the French Socialist party, said she was "stunned, shocked" after seeing them, and pleaded for the media onslaught to stop. And yet, nothing has been mentioned about the plight of his alleged victim, or about how hard it is to speak out about sexual violence.

DSK's behaviour towards women is talked about as if it wasn't harassment, but a game of seduction. And if we finally start talking about his alleged victim, it's to suggest she was a honeytrap. Instead, the press chooses to highlight the words of his political allies, who describe him as a benign seducer – but "one that does not force anything". Commentators repeat that this is about his "private life". But with a non-consenting person, it is not an issue of privacy. Still, this distinction seems beyond France's leading journalists.

And then there's the brand of humour that's employed. On Monday morning, the daily Metro carried the headline "la débandade" (roughly meaning "stampede", but also a play on the word "bander", meaning "to be sexually aroused"). On Twitter, the lawyer and influential blogger Maître Eolas had a similar bit of fun: "DSK still favourite for the presidential erection". Similar jokes are everywhere – that touch of Gallic humour that transforms claims of sexual violence into knowing jokes

*

In this country, it seems that the shame of sexual assault is still squarely placed upon, and carried by, the victims. It is akin to those families where incest is kept silent for fear of reprisal or to preserve the family, while the victim is scarred for life and asked to suffer in silence. It is a means of preserving a social equilibrium dictated by the powerful. In the case of Banon, the silence should have been broken by the media. The young woman had spoken about her ordeal on a TV discussion show. Around her the other guests laughed; the host even punctuated her testimony with a sarcastic "j'adore!" – not easily translated in this context, but roughly meaning "what cheek!" in a half-admiring, half-shocked tone. Incidentally, a guest also asked how she was dressed, picking up on the theme of the victim who "had it coming".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/17/dominique-strauss-kahn-french-media

[reggie the dog]

138. read liberation on the left

le monde in the center and figaro on the right and they are not defending dsk, the journalists have been saying what he was busted for. people here either think he is guilty or victim of a plot. it is predictable that people think of a plot. how would the usa react if suddenly obama were accused of attempted rape, many people would think that he was set up.

[seabeyond]

141. lol, i say this with a smile

every questions of yours or argument you gave, that i showed you a counter, you gave me

the people dont think that, only old boy network
the people are outraged
the people think it is a plot.

lol

hey, i hear ya....

that is the info i have. no more. or less.

[reggie the dog]

163. what do you want people here to do?

most of the common people i talk to had no idea that dsk liked to force himself on women, if the leaders of france knew this they didnt share it with the rest of us. people here who think he is guilty are outraged as what dsk has done tarnishes the image of france. people who think he was framed think it is a plot. many people think that if he did it he is a sexual predator because he could have just paid for a hooker seeing as how rich he is if it was only about getting laid. the average french person would not care if dsk had gotten a prostitute but they are very concerned that he is trying to rape women.

[seabeyond]

173. you know what

when you read a post, do you hear a voice. i do. with a book. a post. and you know how i read your posts... really, for real.

with a damn french accent and i dont even have, like, anyone close that has a french accent. i did take french for two years in high school. but i hear it so loudly in your posts.

the brain. a powerful thing

ok reggie. i am going to trust you that the people there are disgusted. we will see how this plays out.

france publicized the victims name. that is sad. but that is not the people. media. probably prodded by govt (maybe, that is assumption, guess, i dont know)

[LeftishBrit]

41. That's a bit of a straw man

No one is saying that any of this is of NECESSITY the case. Just that it's possible that he was framed. People with powerful enemies are sometimes framed, even if they're powerful themselves.

There are people in the IMF who want all countries with financial problems to be forced to crush and squeeze the poor and those who depend on public services. The relatively liberal Strauss-Kahn is not popular with these people, who have very strong financial interests, wield a great deal of power. Also, Sarkozy or his backers (some of whom are rich and powerful) could have an interest in destroying Strauss-Kahn.


'Because gol'darn rich "socialists" just don't ever abuse women or power.'

No, because gol'darn rich right-wingers, especially those with lots of money and power, have been known sometimes to abuse *their* power to bring down their enemies. Remember how hard some people tried to bring down Clinton?

As I say: Strauss-Kahn may very well be guilty - but he may also not be; he could be a target of a ruthless campaign by powerful interests. And I am someone who is usually rather sceptical of conspiracy theories.

[Ghost Dog]

64. Very well put.

That's it exactly.

It's the 'string him up' lobby that appears knee-jerked here, with MSM elements pulling the strings.

[Skidmore]

65. You need to do some more reading.

[woo me with science]

86. Excellent post. nt

[leftstreet]

116. +1

[sabrina 1]

160. Shhh!! Stop injecting reason into this.

It is NOT welcome here! :eyes:

I remember well the 'string'em up' attitude towards the Lacrosse players on this very forum and anyone, including me who dared to say 'wait a minute', were everything from supporters of rapists, to bigots, to lovers of the rich and famous.

There is absolutely a possibility of a set-up whenever a prominent figure, especially one who was thought to be capable of toppling the rightwing Sarkozy, is involved. And to ignore that would be derelict on the part of the press. Especially since the vicious smear campaign by Sarkozy was already in full swing in France, and Strauss-Kahn had instructed his attorneys to look into taking legal action against him.

Add to that the fact that Strauss-Kahn practically predicted this scenario and the fact that Sarkozy warned him about his 'behavior' with women (ironic coming from someone whose own record as a philanderer, at least in the past, is well-known) and yes, the press has a duty to report these things.

The smear campaign was already being reported on in Europe so it's not as though it is being 'dug up to defend him'. What is being asked is that we now be silent about it. Nope, after the Duke case and the myriad of other rape cases uncovered by the Innocence Project, I will wait for real evidence of guilt before jumping on the 'string'em up' train.

If he is guilty, he is a criminal bastard, but he is not guilty yet so I will refrain from judgement at this point. Apparently that is not an acceptable position to take for some reason, but too bad. It is the right position to take at this stage of any case.

[Skidmore]

161. Wow! that's some convoluted reasoning to cast

blame on a woman for reporting an assault. Sarkozy is over here buying off hotel maids and it's all part of a grand conspiracy to smear men of all walks of life. Every woman who reports sexual assault is not to be believed and does not deserve justice.

The problem I have with those of you "reasoning" in that manner is that you have already discounted the woman and lent total cover to possible criminal behavior. You most certainly are not refraining from judgment but have already passed it.

[sabrina 1]

162. Wow! That is some twisting of what I actually said!

This is why I am so grateful for the judicial process. These emotional reactions to stories where no one actually knows anything other than what they are reading in the papers, make it clear why civilized societies do not leave decisions about the freedoms and lives of accused people to the public at large.

The problem I have with you is that you have concluded that the man is guilty. And you make the ridiculous statement that waiting for evidence other than what is in the press regarding this case, means thrashing a 'victim'. There is no guilty party yet, therefore there is no victim. YOU otoh have completed the process. Because if there is a victim there must be a guilty party.

Do you know more than the rest of us that has led you to this conclusion? Were you on the side of the 'victim' in the Duke Lacrosse case also? I, in that case, took the exact position I take here, and in any case that has not been heard in a court of law.

There is no guilty party and no victim until there has been a trial. The woman is, at this stage, a witness. The trial will determine whether or not she is a victim.

It is so sad that so many people cannot grasp that simple concept, the very foundation of a civil society is a judicial system that does not convict before trial.

[joshcryer]

167. Difference between "I will withhold judgement" and "sexual assault a pecadillo of the rich."

There's a difference between "I will reserve my opinion" and "if he really wanted some he'd just buy a hooker."

I see a major difference between "I won't find him guilty" and "the NYPD changed their story."

It's clearly different to say "I will not claim to know the truth in this case" and "DSK was caught in a honey trap."

It's obviously different to say "I respect the judicial system even though it's unlikely I'll ever be a juror in this case, and will reserve holding a position whatsoever on this case" and saying "Sarkozy is in tight with US intelligence and the French have elections coming up."

Basically the people this thread is referring to who are saying that they're "just reserving judgement" is not being truthful.

Judgement is most certainly being laid, and that judgement is on the victim, it's implicit, implied. If Sarkozy is involved, then the victim must be making it up, if the NYPD changed the story, the victim must be making it up, if the preposterous claims that he'd "just buy a hooker" were true then the victim must be making it up, if it's a honey trap then the victim must be making it up.

[joshcryer]

168. Yes, "possible that he is framed" = she's lying. No evidence, mind, just innuendo.

We have evidence that he tried to fly to France with one day left on his hotel room. We know a victim has come forward and pointed him out in a lineup. We know that he tried to get his cell phone back, the list goes on.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. whenever political opportunity arises from scandal

questions need to be asked. The front runner to replace Sarkozy has been knocked out of the race. The motive is just sitting there. If Strauss-Kahn can demonstrate a credible alibi, what then?

[Skidmore]

52. Then the case will be decided in his favor in court in a proper

defense. However, there is more than Strauss-Kahn in this case. Because a political motive is there to remove him from contending in an election in France does not mean that it occurred and that the woman can be assumed to be lying at this point. What if he can't?

[w4rma]

53. What if he really is innocent? Would you care, Skidmore? Or have you already decided? (nt)

[Skidmore]

55. Read up thread a bit.

[seabeyond]

60. "There may well have been consent."

he has changed from his alibi of not being there to "she wanted it"

[Skidmore]

66. I just saw that article.

[joshcryer]

67. So did I, thanks seabeyond.

If true then the lawyers just put DSK in jail for 5 years.

[reggie the dog]

118. when did he say he wasn't there?

[seabeyond]

130. last night, a poster posted thread that lawyers had a alibi for the man. this morning

it became he was there and it is consent

[reggie the dog]

136. i hadnt seen the claim of an alabi in the french press at all

[AngryAmish]

143. There are two mutually exclusive defenses to rape

1. There was consent. or

2. I didn't do it.

You can't credibly say you were not there and them say I wasn't there and she was asking for it.

If the defense is that she was a willing participant then get ready to see people attempt to destroy her. It will be ugly.

[Modern_Matthew]

56. Anything to put a banker behind bars is OK with me. nt

[jberryhill]

57. Naw, we're still just posting speculation on an Internet forum

I kinda doubt that anything on DU is going to affect his defense at all.

[WinkyDink]

68. Wait. What? I not only believe this woman; I believe his OTHER accusers. The guy has a REP:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1387813/Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-sex-scandal-We-NEVER-privacy-laws-like-French.html

[seabeyond]

72. isnt it amazing. this is the ultimate in what the problem with rape is.

all these years i was told to admire the french their lazzie faire, and i was pissed at this attitude and told a prude if i did not agree with this attitude.

i am so fuckin pissed reading about this man.

thanks for the article. all these articles of people KNOWING this man was forceful, with women all over and then titling him

the great seducer
the lady's man

no... the fuckin rapist, morans

[Blasphemer]

94. Indeed

And the fact that Sarkozy would publicly warn him about being careful while in the U.S. speaks volumes. Sarkozy is the one who slipped Obama a letter requesting assistance for Polanksi. I have no doubt that it is well known in certain French social circles which powerful men are known for violence against women.

[seabeyond]

103. do you have any link to this. i would like it as i am being told france is not lenient (to say the

least) with this behavior.

[Blasphemer]

108. About Sarkozy?

I wasn't actually intending to comment on leniency in the French culture but moreso about these things being such an open secret in certain circles that Sarkozy could issue a public warning:

On Sarkozy and Polanski: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-19/polanski-begs-obama-for-mercy/#
It is noted that Sarkozy wanted to keep his interceding on Polanski's behalf quiet because of the reaction of conservative supporters

I read Sarkozy's warning to Strauss-Kahn here on DU - I'll post if I can find the link.

[seabeyond]

109. i so thank you. and thank you for that bet of tidbet. nt

[Blasphemer]

110. Here's the other link:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8515092/Dominique-Strauss-Kahn-timeline-of-controversies.html

2007: After he IMF managing director in 2007, Jean Quatremer, a journalist at Libération, wrote: "The only real problem for Strauss-Kahn, is his relation to women. Too forward, he often brushes with harassment. It is a problem known to the media but that nobody talks about (we are in France)."

"Like all great political animals, he has trouble controlling himself." The French press quote President Nicolas Sarkozy as warning Mr Strauss-Kahn before his Washington appointment, saying: "You know, over there they don't joke about this sort of thing. Your life will be passed under a magnifying glass. Avoid taking the lift alone with interns. France cannot permit a scandal."

[seabeyond]

112. they don't joke about this sort of thing. . fuck. i am suppose to be bothered they call me a prude

they fuckin know this man assaults women. brushes my ass. and they allow it. and we are suppose to admire this shit

you got my blood boiling iwth htis, but i thank you.

[Renew Deal]

73. If there's people willing to defend Bin Laden, they'll defend anyone.

[seabeyond]

74. maybe that is it. i dont get how people can be so flexibly hypocritical.

intellectually, in the heart, it makes no sense to me. i dont know how someone could twist and turn enough to defend this piece of shit

[polly7]

76. I don't see anyone 'defending' him here. nt.

[seabeyond]

77. there have been a number of threads. to rich to rape would buy it. too hot to rape

women would readily give him a blow job. socialist, he wouldnt do it. alibi.... ooooops, alibi changed this morning to she consented.

[Skidmore]

78. Which means they've moved on to the smear the victim phase.

[polly7]

91. Wow. I missed those.

Did a poster actually say the woman consented??? That's unreal.

I was thinking of people wanting to know the facts and clarifying what he's been charged with, who are been accused of defending him. I don't see it.

[seabeyond]

93. i cannot go thru and link them. not that good. cant tell you the posters, calling out

but they are out there. it is the lawyer that went from alibi, to consent.

all the rest are on threads on front page, that really, 62 is not old, he is still hot, no sags and bags.....

and just gets worst

one questioning if assault on whether she "knocked" or not.

[polly7]

104. You made the sags and bags comment. No -one said he was hot. And .......... 62 isn't all that old.

I feel horrible for his victim and know what it's like to go through this, but accusing people who are merely wanting to discuss the facts, of defending him, isn't right. Accuracy and facts are what will get him a proper conviction. I don't understand why posters who want to discuss them are being accused of something so disgusting.

[seabeyond]

105. i understand your position as i said before. lots of defending and excusing his assault. nt

[polly7]

145. Well I haven't seen anyone defend or excuse his assault. Plenty of

accusations of someone doing that for wanting to know the facts and daring to repost articles that question the circumstances ...... but no one actually doing what you've been saying.

[seabeyond]

148. ya. he would never force a woman to a bj, women readily fall on knees to do it

no defending the man there. just

what is it you said



wanting to know the facts and daring to repost articles that question the circumstances

but not defending. nah

[polly7]

151. WTF are you talking about? I never said any of those things.

You've already come up with a list of things you said was posted by others ...... here it was you who said them. Maybe you need to accept the fact that everyone has a right to discuss the facts of a case without having to be accused of 'defending' or 'excusing' the person involved. NO ... wanting to know the facts or to discuss any article about the case ...... is not defending anything. At least not in my fucking world.

[seabeyond]

153. you chatised me for the very area of the thread i got that from. i did not attribute that

to you

you took responsibility of ALL people on du not defending this. i gave you an example of the defense.

[polly7]

156. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I took responsibility for no one. I stated that simply discussing facts and theories surrounding the case was not defending, or excusing sexual assault. Link to the example you supposedly gave me? I STILL don't see it. All I see are statements you made and are attributing to someone else.

[Skidmore]

150. Why say something when you can get by with implying

it? No, it is not "actually" being done, nothing so straightforward or courageous as that.

[polly7]

152. Maybe you should tell anyone who even hints at wanting to discuss

the case to stfu ...... that would be as courageous as accusing them of something they haven't done, but that you're implying they have.

[Skidmore]

154. What?

I was not implying but stating outright that some of the discussions this morning were cowardly and weaselly constructs aimed at discrediting a woman who sought justice without concern for her side of the story.

[polly7]

155. Perhaps you just assumed they were meant to discredit the woman,

I believe I read those same posts and assumed they were wanting to discuss the facts being presented ... which are confusing and seem to change on the hour. I completely believe she was assaulted and know how horrible she must feel .... but, there's more to this case than we normally hear of with an assault, and people just naturally want to discuss it all. I honestly don't see the harm in that, and don't believe anyone is trying to excuse anything. It must really hurt to be accused of blaming a victim of assault if that isn't what you did. That's all I'm saying.

[joshcryer]

169. You don't think bullshit like "she was only there 3 years and DSK went there 6 times..."

"...last year" isn't an attempt to discredit the woman?

You don't think that "if he really wanted some he'd just buy a hooker" isn't discrediting the woman?

You don't think that the logical conclusion from "the NYPD changed their story" is a direct discredit to the woman?

You don't think that statements like "DSK was caught in a honey trap" is maligning discredit to the woman and her story?

No, I assure you, people "wanting to discuss the facts being presented" presented non-facts and innuendo to make their case. I don't know why you think that they're "facts."

The facts of the case have no relevance to whether or not DSK would buy a hooker, whether or not the inaccurate early reports are relevant, or whether or not conspiracy theories on Global Research have any basis whatsoever. None. These are not facts of the case, they're untruths.

[Distant Observer]

79. Just people wondering if he is being charged for the REAL CRIME.

IMF heads have been famous for raping the poor all over the world.

Maybe that is why the Justice system is taking this guy down with such vehemence!

The CHARGING PAPERS don't say anything about mass murder or the personal and economic destruction of families and nations -- all of which is rampant in the Wall Street corridors which surround that court house. In fact is just talks about perverted criminal attempts at sexual contact and forceful grabbing.

So we have to assume there is a REAL STORY that they are not telling us about.

[Skidmore]

80. Aw, Jeez.

That is a separate issue.

[msanthrope]

81. It's called rape apologia for Leftists We Like. Polanski, Assange, DSK.

It's always the same--America is to blame for where these guys stuck their penises....

[DevonRex]

122. THIS^^^^^^^

[TorchTheWitch]

174. Yup, and it's revolting n/t

[MilesColtrane]

82. Were you around here when the Assange allegations went public?

[Skidmore]

83. Right here getting accused of being an

Obamabot.

[MilesColtrane]

84. Ah, so you're not really surprised about people defending Strauss-Kahn.

Yeah, me neither.

[reggie the dog]

123. did assange actually rape anyone?

[seabeyond]

133. if he held her down when she said no because he was not wearing a condom

then,.... ya.

[reggie the dog]

137. has he been found guilty?

is it possible that assange has been set up?

[seabeyond]

139. one doesnt know, does one. but so many attacked these women

mae things up about the women.

i personally did not particpate much in those threads because i tilted in numerous directions with that whole think. very hard to defend when i saw a number of points.

[reggie the dog]

140. i prefer to wait until the trials are over before i chose if they are guilty

or not. i figure the jury will have access to better info than i will.

[seabeyond]

142. i can still have opinion and discuss. gw... we still talk about his crimes though

he has not been prosecuted.

we still talk wikileaks supposed crimes, though havent been prosecuted.

it is surprising the number of people demand we declare innocent, as they excuse, dismiss, justify behavior and yet... we are not allow to argue cause presumed innocent.

you are more than welcome to hold off.

i do with some

not with all

depends how info is obtained and presented. i am comforted in making some assumptions of guilt on this one. not all. but this one

[MilesColtrane]

157. That's for the Swedish authorities to decide.

But, the arrest warrant issued by Sweden cites him for suspicion of rape, unlawful coercion, and sexual molestation.

[DevonRex]

128. There were a few of us fighting the good fight.

And we were attacked horribly and constantly. I'll never forget being told that we were damaging the poor man's reputation. And that the accuser sullied his name for life.

[robcon]

85. I am proud to live in a country...

where a hotel housekeeper can get a world leader pulled off a plane bound for Paris.

Probably wouldn't happen in France.

[seabeyond]

89. agreed. nt

[Taverner]

87. I dunno - I'll take the word of a housekeeper over the IMF CEO any day nt

[woo me with science]

88. Oh please. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Like the Duke Lacrosse team I think it's prudent to withhold judgment.

There very well could be more to the story and other agendas at work.

[ecstatic]

95. Really bad example... Why did you link the two cases? nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Because this OP could be taken verbatim from 2006.

Just change the noun.

I don't think he's innocent because he's a socialist. I think he's innocent because he hasn't been proven guilty.

[Nye Bevan]

125. I don't remember several other women coming forward to say that the Duke Lacrosse team

did exactly the same thing to them.

[JCMach1]

98. I think it is best to just STFU and let the justice system work here...

[Skidmore]

101. I think it is working.

If it weren't, he'd be in France right now.

[seabeyond]

102. true that. one of the nifty points in this story is how well it worked and

it is what is pissing people off. that it worked

[Travelman]

99. What's this "we" shit, Kemo Sabe?

Speak for yourself. I'm not defending anything. The guy is silly rich. He can afford lawyers to do his defending for him.

[Skidmore]

100. Did you read the thread?

[meow mix]

107. likely a lot of video evidence. beginning at the room door, and tracing his every step

i cant wait to see a couple well known trolls eat shit on this one.

[Skidmore]

111. Me too.

[blondeatlast]

117. Uh-oh; now he's been accused of identity theft (for impersonating a Socialist)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1119397

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Get's worst

Strauss Kahn is WHITE... we both know white men (who are powerful, that helps)... don't rape people.

:sarcasm:

This is why many victims of this crime do NOT come forwards.

And yes, his adventures are an open secret in Paris.

[Skidmore]

127. So true.

I've been thinking about the implications if the charges stick of the fact that this woman is a Muslim of African descent, both for her and internationally. She is truly brave in many ways.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Yep, what is sad is that this does not shock me anymore

why I posted that PSA. The attitudes you'd think would be mostly with the older generation are all over the place still

[Skidmore]

132. That PSA was appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

[Odin2005]

147. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Eddie Haskell]

164. She's not the one in jail,

being held without bail ... in a foreign country. Given the stakes and the circumstances, I think some questions are in order.

[Skidmore]

166. We have a guy from the town up the road who is charged

with a similar crime and is in jail without bail for the same reason. The only questions that need to be explored is did he commit the crime or not. He was charged with a CRIME.

[joshcryer]

170. My new favorite "observation" DSK got "arrainged alarmingly quick."

Nevermind arraignment in NYC averages under 24 hours and he got arraigned in just under 48... ie, it took him forever to get arraigned on the scheme of things. A dope dealer would've been arraigned the next day and sitting in holding, but a rich technocrat gets to have his lawyers hold things up.

[Skidmore]

171. josh, you might be interested in this article I just found.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1639800.php/Strauss-Kahn-lacks-immunity-maid-s-life-upside-down

[joshcryer]

172. Wow, almost a half a million bucks tax free. And this guy is supposed to be the savior of the IMF.

:puke:

Thanks very much for that article! :hi:

edit: corrected from quarter to half a million, I have not slept at all today.