PSA on rape, since we seem to have some misunderstanding on what it is

[nadinbrzezinski]

When working as an EMT you get to treat women and yes MEN who were raped.

You also get to see how the SYSTEM usually doesn't listen or believe the victim. This is not something easy to deal with and many a times I, a lowly medic, became a victim advocate. (Yes there were times I wanted to smack the docs and cops)

So here is what we used to teach our EMTs regarding rape.

Any sexual act, whether there was vaginal or annal penetration or not, where the victim said NO, it means NO, and that means rape. BELIEVE THEM!

That includes what happened in New York from the report of the victim

Yes it is that simple. It is time to stop these games...

Now since i have gone into male rape, which is even more uncomfortable than female rape... yes, it happens, yes it is more common than people think. Yes, it is even reported less than female rape.

So now that I have gone there... it has nothing to so with sexual orientation, and like female rape it is about power, not sexual fun. It is a tool of terror, just like female rape.

Now LEGALLY there is evidence that needs to be collected and examined and all that. But please, just because the victim was a chamber maid don't mean she's lying... nor does it mean it did not happen. I brought some of the tin foil hattery that Hartman reported on the morn... and this case is STILL developing. But I will say this... if you have any doubts that an act NOT involving penetration is rape, I suggest you volunteer at a crisis center after doing some readying.

On a legal perspective, this will have to be tried...

Have people in the past lied about being raped? Yes... and in my experience it is such a small percentage that it is not even funny. But many victims refuse to come out because of this... your word against the perpetrator... or the lovely... but what were you wearing, you were asking for it... what you accepted that drink... I could go on.

Thank you... (It is amazing we even have to talk about this in such a serious way)

[Odin2005]

1. Thank you, Nadin, the "he is being framed" BS is pissing me off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Well I expect that

it does not piss me off. It is what it is, and Rape is one of those taboo subjects that nobody really wants to admit that it happens... and it happens across all social strate.

Listen to the BBC... they actually went into his reputation and what this man was known for. I hope the DA was listening... it made some of the stories in the morn make some more sense.

[hedgehog]

60. The only person set up was the housekeeper told to clean an "empty " suite!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Well said, and thank you. K&R

[PDJane]

3. Kicked, Recommended, and a heartfelt yes, you're right!

[AndiMer]

5. Definitely needs saying

A trillion times until the message is received.

[niyad]

12. sadly, this is so very true.

Welcome to DU

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. Thank you

The insistence that you can't force oral sex on a woman, and the "bite" comments, were getting on my nerves and I quit reading early on.

[dkf]

7. I can understand an EMT being trained to assume there was a rape.

But don't the rest of us need to step back and not assume anything?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. So did the cops

they got a rape kit from the victim.

They got genetic material at the hotel. We call that evidence.

They got an ARREST warrant from a JUDGE. Which means they got enough evidence to start building a LEGAL CASE!

They did NOT remove this man from sovereign French Territory and take him to Rykers just for fun. They HAVE A CASE.

So now it is in the LEGAL SYSTEM.

So yes he is NOT GUILTY until proven otherwise.... I am just stating the reality of what RAPE IS, and separating it from the legal system, for the purpose of the OP. The reason is... the number of people who are assuming that a rape could not have occurred since there was no penetration. This is a commonly held misconception

I could also go into detail on male rape... which makes men develop all kinds of cooties in north america... not just the US. Now the numbers of misconceptions with that one make female rape look almost mundane... and talk about a bunch of male EMTs developing all kinds of uncomfortable postures when we went into THAT one. (And I must add the instructor, that be me... had to keep a very serious and straight face when dealing with a cootie causing subject... that and AIDS in the 1980s... oy)

[pnwmom]

13. There are different possible charges:

sexual assault, attempt to rape, and rape -- among others. They're not equivalent legally and we have yet to see what charges will be pressed or proven.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I am just stating the reality of what RAPE IS, and separating it from the legal system." The legal system specifically defines rape. So how can you separate the crime from its legal definition?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Because i am talking of the act

not the legal definition. THe legal system does not care for the PTSD, for example. Or the intrusive dreams, or the rest of it. that is a MEDICAL aspect to it...

Nor does the legal system take into account the suicides and other aspects that come with it. What medically you would call co-morbidities... or the sexually transmitted diseases.

I just wanted to make sure that people understood, getting a dick in somebody mouth, without that person wanted to do fellatio IS a form of rape. So is full coitus, and insertion of foreign bodies.

Now LEGALLY... depending on the state... each one of these acts may or may not meet the LEGAL definition of rape.

[pnwmom]

18. I would agree with you that all those situations you describe

are a form of rape. I'm surprised that they wouldn't meet the legal standard in all states.

:grr:

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. I was surprised too

to be honest...

Now some of those blogs, are not for the faint of heart. One of them spoke of male rape and how it was not taken seriously (surprise) or prosecuted... (surprise) and yes in that particular blog it was a prison rape.

But yes, it seems that not all our states treat the subject equally...

[Hannah Bell]

32. The charges are already on file. quick work, eh? they do not include rape.

they are:

1) criminal sexual act
2) attempted rape
3) sexual abuse
4) unlawful imprisonment
5) forcible touching

the reason there's no rape charge is that no entry or penetration is alleged. not in any orifice, not with any appendage or instrument.

the closest allegation is "forcibly made contact with his penis & informant's mouth twice"

http://blogs.forbes.com/afontevecchia/2011/05/16/court-documents-provide-graphic-description-of-alleged-strauss-kahn-attacks/

[csziggy]

22. Thank you and I was actually impressed by the media coverage

On CNN this morning, the woman on with Ali Belshi covered this story very well. Belshi was making some kind of comments about how this case was not yet proven. The woman covered that the prosecutors were not likely to have lightly made a charge considering how powerful the accused is. She also covered that there are previous allegations against him, apparently in New York, where there had not been enough evidence.

Whatever happened in this case, it is pretty obvious that this woman did not give consent.

The comments on other threads here are pretty sickening - one line of "justification" was that maybe the IMF guy had "ordered" an "escort" and thought the hotel employee was the response to his order. Even if a prostitute had responded to a request, that would not have given consent for the type of force that allegedly was used.

I hope this is part of the pattern that seems to be developing across the world - that the rich and powerful are being sent the message that they do not have the right to fuck the rest of us, either literally or in actuality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. From the morn on the CNBC it seemed that

even the French might want a whack. legally speaking. after we are done. Apparently his escapades were well known in paris, and there might be charges in Paris too.

[csziggy]

25. This is going to be an interesting case to follow

But I wonder if it will be a show case, sort of like Bernie Madoff. Lots of people were excited about "one of the rich crooks" getting caught and sent to jail, but while it let a lot of steam off, it did not change anything.

I hope the woman in this case does not have her life destroyed by it. I hope she finds an advocate to protect her.

Good to see you back!

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. So do I

and this was kind of shocking to me, to see how rape is still seen as a suspect crime...

[joshcryer]

30. I don't know if you were referring to me or not but that was not meant as a "justification."

Just to clarify.

edit: on edit, no, I had the same sort of inclination much later on from when you posted that so it wasn't me. I believe I was probably being stupid when I said that anyway.

[dkf]

31. Ok I can see that.

[brooklynite]

35. just for clarification...

Being on an Air France plane is not "sovereign French territory". If it was, the police would not have boarded the plane without the permission of the French Government.

Air France is a private airline. As long as their plane in on the ground in the US, or for that matter within the territorial space of the US while flying, it is subject to US jurisdiction.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. planes flag at a nation state

are considered it's territory, ships flagged again are their territory. They have permission, again through agreements, to enter somebody else's territory. Those agreements also establish the minimum crew training and yes. compatible radios.

There are understandings that allow local authorities to board them in case of crimes or other needs... we call them treaties.

Yesterday I even went through this. It is part of the civil aviation treaties.

It is pretty basic international law actually.

[CreekDog]

29. yes, the author of the OP that said Lara Logan wasn't raped unless she proved it to you immediately

is calling for fairness.

:eyes:

[gateley]

8. Haha! I knew this was from you, nad, even before I saw your name!

You always take the time and make the effort to help us understand and to make things clear. You are a treasure! :pals:

[pnwmom]

10. Every rape is a sexual assault but legally,

every sexual assault -- i.e., sexual contact without consent -- is not a rape. Some sexual assaults -- for example, grabbing a breast -- fall short of the legal definition of rape.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. And in some states forced dick in mouth are not LEGALLY rape

NEW YORK treats it as rape...

I guess it is a matter of degree.

[pnwmom]

15. That seems clear-cut to me since it involves

force and penetration. I wonder how many states don't count that as rape?

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Several in the south

I read it somewhere this morning....

And male rape... that is even harder to prove. I am actually going into some of this for fiction, so started readying some blogs from some victims... and I did remember treating some of my patients.

[Iris]

62. Which ones? I'm skeptical since oral sex is still illegal in some states.

It seems unlikely that oral sex would be illegal amongst consenting adults but forced oral sex would not be rape. It would at least be illegal, I guess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Illegal but not rape

exactly.

[jberryhill]

36. What difference does it make what label is attached to a defined set of acts?

There are some states that define no crime denominated as "rape" at all. It's not as if the name of an offense is some sort of magic incantation.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/H/130

Section 130.20 Sexual misconduct
Section 130.25 Rape in the third degree
Section 130.30 Rape in the second degree
Section 130.35 Rape in the first degree
Section 130.40 Criminal sexual act in the third degree
Section 130.45 Criminal sexual act in the second degree
Section 130.50 Criminal sexual act in the first degree
Section 130.52 Forcible touching

From a practical standpoint, it makes no difference whether a given set of acts is called "rape" and carries a max sentence of 10 years, or if it is called "whatever" and carries a max sentence of 10 years.

[pnwmom]

41. The difference is I didn't understand what the OP was getting at

which, if I understand correctly, is something I agree with -- that forced oral sex is a type of rape. And you're right that it is the sentence that is most important.

Grabbing a breast, however (or "forcible touching" which DSK is also said to have done), is not.

[woo me with science]

65. ABCNews reports he is being accused of anal rape as well.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/dominque-strauss-kahns-accuser-inconsolable-alleged-attack/story?id=13621783

Dominique Strauss-Kahn Placed on Suicide Watch
By RICHARD ESPOSITO, KAITLYN FOLMER (@ABCKaitlyn) , DESIREE ADIB and RUSSELL GOLDMAN (@GoldmanRussell)
May 17, 2011


Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former head of the International Monetary Fund, has been placed on suicide watch in his New York City jail cell, four days after he was arrested and charged with sodomizing a chamber maid in his Manhattan hotel room.

....

Strauss-Kahn, 62, was arraigned Monday. He is accused of forcing the housekeeper to perform oral sex and submit to anal sex after he emerged naked from his suite's bathroom at the Sofitel Hotel in New York City. The married father of four is accused of sexual assault and attempted rape.

His alleged victim ..."was still crying today," a friend of the alleged victim told ABC News. "She was completely devastated. I was the first person she called."

The alleged victim, a housekeeper at New York City's Sofitel Hotel, called the friend from the emergency room at St. Luke's hospital, where she was examined by doctors and questioned by New York Police Department detectives Saturday night after the alleged attack.
...

He described his friend, an immigrant from West Africa and the mother of a 15-year-old girl, as a "good Muslim" and "not the kind of woman to attack a man."

...

(This story has been updated to reflect the fact that the person who spoke to ABC News is a close friend of the alleged victim, not the alleged victim's brother, as originally reported.)

[niyad]

11. k and r--one would think that, on a progressive board, your explanations would not be necessary

but, given so many comments on so many cases, I have learned that this is not the case.

[Blue-Jay]

20. See.. Most of us already know that rape is bad.

Personally, I don't need anyone to state the obvious and pretend that it's a new idea.

[Hannah Bell]

33. +100 or to state the erroneous & claim it's the truth.

not every forced sexual act = rape.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Blue-Jay]

47. Rape is bad, m'kay?

[steve2470]

21. Like you, I *automatically* assume the alleged victim is telling the truth

Of course, the defendant has a right to a fair trial with all pertinent evidence introduced.

The only thing that bothers me about this case, is the fact that there is a remote/maybe not so remote chance that he is being framed by his French political opponents. Based on what I've read so far (yes, including the twitter reports), I don't think he's being framed.

It's really crazy the way it is being told so far, that he would attack a maid while naked. However, no one ever said rapists were sane. It will be interesting to see all the evidence come forth. I really hope the victim is not smeared, but I'm afraid the defense/media/sympathizers for DSK will dredge up everything about her.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. If I wrote crime fiction I'd be clipping news papers

the vein for creative writers... I just might... one of my characters IS a sick fuck to put it mildly.

The problem is that some people have lied about getting raped. What most people do not realize is just how small of a percentage that is. What is it? The Lacrosse case? The Al Gore Case? We are talking of 200,000 year last time I checked...

Here from the most recent stats I could find

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html

And yes it is still woefully under reported. One out every six women have been sexually assaulted (ranging from boob grabbing to actual rape)... so that is kind of the scary part.

[underseasurveyor]

26. With no exceptions

I take anyone's word, as truth, if they say they have been assaulted sexually.

K n R'd

[dorkulon]

28. Then it's a virtual certainly that you will be fooled eventually.

False accusations are rare, but they do occur. I doubt this is one of those cases, but we have seen them before, and it seems wrong to make no allowances for that possibility in any case. The idea that one MUST believe an accuser, no matter what, means necessarily putting at least a few innocent people in jail. That seems kind of messed up to me.

[joshcryer]

34. It's pretty OK to be wrong about something, though. That's life. Jury's are about 85%+ accurate.

Some 15% of cases are wrong (half are convictions when not guilty, and half are acquittals when guilty).

It's probably not OK though to be wrong about almost everything, so people going around believing certain things as representative as life as whole (such as, what if that person is lying about being raped!) isn't going to really get you very far.

[dorkulon]

49. Seems to me it's not OK for the wrongly accused.

It's not an all or nothing thing. I grant that the vast majority of rape accusations are likely to be legitimate. but to say that you will believe them "no matter what" seems a bit extreme.

[JoeyT]

37. No one is saying anyone has to automatically believe the accuser.

What is objectionable is the "How was she dressed?" and "This is a set up!" crap.

There's a certain part of the population that will automatically blame the victim for being raped no matter what the evidence. The line "Well, it's not REALLY rape rape." is part of that.

[dorkulon]

53. Sorry, but that's precisely what underseasurveyor is saying.

I also find such blaming the victim to be reprehensible.

[underseasurveyor]

72. yes I did say that.

If a person, man or woman, says to me they were sexually assaulted, I believe them. Period. Doesn't mean I'm going to point and scream guilty at the accused. I believe in due process.

[underseasurveyor]

42. And I say so what if I am.

I would rather be fooled many times over than make the mistake of doubting one person. I can easily recover from being fooled.

[dorkulon]

52. It's not really you I'm worried about.

I'm more concerned about innocent people doing time as rapists. A blanket statement that you believe all rape accusations seems to mean you don't care if the occasional innocent person goes to jail.

[underseasurveyor]

71. That's your thinking but not what I said.

My role is not to doubt a claim of rape. That is the job of the medical evidence, investigators and the courts. If I find myself on a jury -which I would not be capable of doing in a rape case- but if I were on a panel it would be my duty to make a decision based on evidence and testimony.

You read too much into what I said.

[Odin2005]

50. Me, too.

[w8liftinglady]

38. I have cared for rape victims of many genres. Rape is rape.

No apology for the rapist,whoever it may be. I have cared for male and female rape victims from infants to 85 year-olds.
rape is the cruelest form of torture,in that the victim is made to feel guilty.

For my friends who have been there.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Humanityhealing#p/search/0/Yzdgf9pYeC0

[Odin2005]

51. My best friend is a rape victim. She is physically disabled.

Which makes the monster who raped her even more evil.

[lightningandsnow]

39. Thank you for posting this.

You said it way better than I could. :hug:

[niyad]

40. and despite what some people say, just because the police, or the da, or whoever, says the charge is

false does not automatically mean it is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. And the stats speak volumes

but, but the woman who lied about the Lacrosse players...

Ok that is one.

There were another REPORTED 200,000 cases THAT YEAR ALONE.

That is a mind numbing statistic

To put it in another way,

1:6 women will report a rape

1:10 men will

[DevonRex]

48. Thank you very much. Everyone needs to be know this. Nt

[ZombieHorde]

54. Recommended. You're preaching to the choir, perhaps send this OP to your local paper. nt

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

58. This is about the guy who forced his penis into another person's mouth?

How could that not be rape? What do they think rape is?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Vaginal\anal penetration

I am guessing the latter as an afterthought.

Incidentally that was the legal definition for many years

[ZombieHorde]

66. I see. I wonder if some of those who don't consider forced fellatio rape are clinging to the old

definition.

Or perhaps they just want to protect a French socialist.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

63. What's even more shocking is that it appears some people question her story b/c she is a maid.

wtf?

[ZombieHorde]

64. I did not realize people hated maids. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Reach for the sociologist hat

this is one of the most powerful men on the planet... his career, future et al is on the line.

It is going to be destroyed by one of the powerless, working poor.... assuming her story is correct (and i have no reason to doubt her story by the way)

Once you look at it from that prism... it makes SOME SENSE. What shocks me is that people who claim to be socialist are attacking the member of the proletariat and defending the caviar socialist...

Now that one makes me scratch my head fully. But reality is that this is also how we love the powerful and hate ourselves, aka the poor...

[woo me with science]

67. ABCNews is reporting accusations of both oral and anal rape.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1117134&mesg_id=1123809

[Ohio Joe]

55. You are correct

It shocks me how quickly people will go to blaming the victim.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. It does not shock me, because it goes with the territory

there is a reason 1:6 women who are raped come out, and only 1:10 men...

[kenichol]

61. You are a breath of fresh air

Thank YOU!