Face it, "working the system" is not going to get us anywhere

[MadHound]

Working within the political constructs set up by our country is not going to achieve significant gains or change. The political system is simply not set up to bring about change, but rather it is set up as a control method, one designed to force us to expend our energy working the political system. In the end, that energy is dissipated and the change is minimal. Not to mention that with corporate control of our government, the political system is rigged against we the people.

For example, health care in this country. For years, public opinion was solidly behind adapting a single payer health care system like Canada's, one that eliminate the insurance middle man. Yet when the health care reform debate came around, despite a massive effort to get even the bare minimum of a public option, that energy was dissipated, deflected, and not only did the public not get a single payer system of health care, we didn't even get a public option to offset the monstrosity of a mandated monopoly for the insurance industry. This scenario has been repeated time and again throughout our history.

What history also shows is that progress for the American people only comes about when the American people are pissed, when they turn out in such large numbers, shutting down industries, cities, threatening the social and political order to such an extent that it forces the powers that be to sit up, take notice, and actually make a positive change, just to restore stability and order (which is valued by TPTB almost as much as they value money). The union struggle, civil rights struggle, the fight to end the Vietnam war, the fight for women's rights, gay rights, all of these struggles point to one overwhelming conclusion, that working within the system is not going to bring about change. The only way to bring about real change in this country is to take it for ourselves, not politely ask for it, trying to work the system to get crumbs.

Our country is desperately in need of change, now, and since, as we've seen once more, change is not going to happen working the political system, it is time that we get out and take it for ourselves. Anti-war protests, general strikes, labor uprisings, all these and more are needed in order to get the change that this country needs. Otherwise, if we continue to politely work the system, we are simply playing into their hands, and the only change we will see is that things will get worse for us, and much, much better for the wealthy and power elite.

[rrneck]

1. Getting pissed and taking action

is codified in the Bill of Rights.

Nothing will happen until all the people who have been bought off run out of money.

[MadHound]

3. Only to a certain extent,

We have freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, but many people, especially in the labor battles of a hundred years ago, went far beyond that.

And we can't afford to wait politely by while those who are bought off run out of money. That will never happen. We need to take matters into our own hands, and make the changes we need ourselves.

[rrneck]

9. The bulk of the labor battles

were an exercise in freedom of assembly. They were strikes and marches. Sometimes they became riots.

The BOR offers us a continuum of force from speaking to bearing arms. They have all been used at one time or another. All it takes is enough people to use them.

Of course the longer it takes to get enough people to take action, the more disruptive tools are required.

[MadHound]

29. Actually a great many were riots,

And some of them became small wars.

That isn't within the Bill of Rights, that is stepping outside the system.

[rrneck]

117. The Second Amendment anticipates small wars. nt

[SDuderstadt]

118. Bullshit....

You are referring to insurrection.

[rrneck]

121. ...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency

[robinlynne]

65. sort of. The anti war (Iraq) protests were cordoned off into "FREE SPEECH ZONES",

the police wore riot gear and came on horses with tear gas, and there was no news coverage. that was even BEFORE the war started.
freedom of speech, sort of.

[OHdem10]

2. You make valid points. A case could be made that working the

system has brought us the Right Wing Government as we
have right now.

[MadHound]

4. A very strong case,

Considering that Ike's platform is now to the left of Obama's.

[defendandprotect]

44. Exactly -- !! Riding the "lesser of evils" bus only gets you more evil -- !!

[socialist_n_TN]

5. Extra electoral remedies.........

are the only things that have EVER worked to bring about REAL change in this country, so obviously I agree with your OP. And I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

With the way the political system has been set up, the Senate will ALWAYS block anything more than tinkering around the edges. Even massive protests and demonstrations have only limited effect, ESPECIALLY since the capitalists have control of the MSM. The only thing that demonstrations can do is influence public opinion and if the media doesn't report on the demos, then it won't have ANY effect at all. Further, we've ALREADY got a majority of people on our side on the issues, so more demonstrations in and of themselves won't make much more difference in influencing the people.

What we have to do is influence the SYSTEM itself and the next step in influencing the system is the withholding of labor. Or strikes. Lots and lots of strikes. But the workers have to be convinced that there's nothing left to try, but strikes. I don't know if we're there yet, but it IS the next step. The strikes can be (and SHOULD be) coupled with massive street demonstrations, but the strikes have to be there.

Extra electoral rememdies.

[defendandprotect]

48. American workers are only a few steps from slavery -- and even those who were

protected by benefits -- pensions, etal -- now see them being taken

away from them by every deception that can be pulled!

And corporations also don't want to pay for job losses -- they want out of paying

for unemployment benefits --

that's the next step -- I've heard that corporations are hiring "third parties" to

fight unemployment insurance claims.

On and on this goes!!

Obama has just put thru two new trade agreements -- Korea and Colombia --

[StarsInHerHair]

127. a story on consumerist says corps. are looking to use your off-job behaviour

to stop unemployment payments! feudalism is really close

[defendandprotect]

137. I'm sure that could be happening ....

but can't quite get to what is meant by that?

Like, if you don't go to church on Sunday, you're doing harm to your workweek?

So -- if they lay you off -- then it's your fault?

Whaaat?



:)

[RKP5637]

6. Yep, it's a system now meant to suppress people and ideas while professing to

have tremendous equality, freedom and rewarding ideas and innovation. In the past IMO this was more achievable, but today the essence of life is being sucked out of millions of people.

It needs to change, but politicians, corporations, rulings like Citizens United, the cornered wealth in this country by a few hundred people, trickle down economics, RW religion, out of control capitalism, incredible and growing ignorance and Stupidity, a dumbed down populace, to name a few, and a complicit corporate MSM have stalled the country into stagnation.

In its current state I think Americans, the majority, will live in a pretty dismal 21st century.

[90-percent]

7. Protests

We still haven't tried taking over a major American City BY THE MILLIONS.

If we weren't so divided and conquered and propagandized and dumbed down, WE THE PEOPLE could pull something like this off.

Based on my statistically invalid observations - which consist of talking to anybody I can about "current events", there's a hell of a lot more of US that know we're getting totally hosed by a government taken over by multi national corporations, than readers of a highly skewed board like DU would believe!

I think America is now made up of about 25% kool-aid corporate propaganda consumers, and the remaining 75% know somethings wrong, but they don't know what it is.


-90% Jimmy

[RKP5637]

10. This statement IMO hit the nail on the head. "the remaining 75% know somethings wrong,

but they don't know what it is." And the republican spin machine works overtime to blame it all on Obama and the dem party. If we had a credible MSM some correction could take place, but the stuff I hear, for the most part, is so loaded with BS and garbage I bet many of that 75% can't tell what's up from down.

[StarsInHerHair]

128. so the question drags on for another decade: why has the "left" not created

their own public voice/network? The GOP was realistic & willing to operate at a loss for years, why is the so-called Left not so methodical? We have millionaires, are they not willing to do this? perhaps that's the answer

[RKP5637]

130. I've had the same question in my mind for years and have never found a

satisfactory answer, but the republicans IMO know how to work MSM better than the democrats. Yes, it does seem IMO that the millionaires are not willing to fund a democratic voice/network similar to Fox.

[defendandprotect]

139. Agree -- but let's be clear that the rightwing owns the corporate-press ....

Here's another way to think about it --

"The myth of a free press died with the assassination of Pres. John F. Kennedy" --

and even more so --

"In America, liberals and progressives have an odd way of getting assassinated or

otherwise eliminated" -- That's what Europeans were saying about US after JFK.


PLUS, the right always fears the rising of a liberator -- a "Messiah" -- especially

among African Americans -- and, afaic see, they've been eliminating all liberal

leadership anyway they can -- including assassinating them -- and even BEFORE liberal

leadership gets a chance to rise!

[RKP5637]

141. Thanks, that made it very clear and agree 1000%. n/t

[defendandprotect]

138. Recently ....

in one of his latest books, Ralph Nader was trying to appeal to the wealthy elites

on the left to begin to act --

However, these people also live very comfortable lives and few of them want to do what

wealthy liberals used to do in America -- it seems -- !!

Don't really know -

[defendandprotect]

49. One of the main elite goals is to keep the public from understand this is a LIBERAL nation ---!!

RW propaganda works to try to convince libeals they are aberrations!!

:rofl:

[sufrommich]

8. Well, first you would need millions of people who agree with you.

I always have to wonder why so many DUers think a revolution in this country would automatically move this country to the left. Have you seen the people at the Tea Party rallies?

[RKP5637]

12. IMO it's a very unstable country prone to move L or R depending on who

hits which hot buttons of the American public, generally eliciting a response with no fully functioning brain engaged IMO.

[MadHound]

13. Have you seen the unbiased polls of the public?

The American people are a lot more liberal than the media wants to let on. They want less war, more social programs, more civil rights. Large majorities are in favor of single payer health care, ending these damn wars, cutting military spending, increasing support for the needy, on and on.

But these opinions get no play in the media because guess what, the media is controlled by corporations who have a vested interests in continuing to fleece the people of this country. The same corporations that fund and support the small Tea Party. The total number of Tea Party members is around seventy thousand people. That is less than one twentieth of one percent of the US population. Even if ten times that number were actively participating in rallies and such, the number of such participants is still less than one percent.

The only reason such a small fringe gets such large play is because the media pushes them to the forefront. Meanwhile, when you have millions march against the war around the country, the media either ignores it or downplays it.

[sufrommich]

18. The American people, by and large, want no part of revolution

and are content to vote for whom they want and live with the results. If they weren't , they would be out in the streets en masse.

[MadHound]

24. The American people, by and large, are so disgusted with the system that they don't vote, period.

They feel that neither party represents them, and that voting is an exercise in futility, since they're going to continue to get screwed no matter who is in power.

But, if these non-voters see a movement that truly promises the change they want, they will jump on board, because more and more people realize that change is not really going to come at the voting booth, but rather when the people reach out and take it. Much like what happened with the labor movement, the civil rights movement, etc. etc. This is a historical reality, and it could very well be that way again.

[sufrommich]

32. So what are you waiting for? Where are the millions of people

willing to overthrow the system? ALso, most people don't vote do so out of apathy, not strong political reasons.

[MadHound]

34. Wow, you are out of touch with people, aren't you.

Go ask those who don't vote why they don't vote, they will tell you exactly what I just did. They aren't lazy, they aren't apathetic, they simply see nothing in the system for them.

All these people need is a spark.

[SDuderstadt]

37. No...

you are.

[MadHound]

39. Ooo, the almighty has spoken,

In such simplistic, angry and uniformed way.

What, are you denying that the labor movement, civil rights movement, anti-war movement, etc. etc. didn't work because they went outside the system? Are you actually denying historical fact?

Or do you just have a vested interest in the system?

[SDuderstadt]

42. No...

I am saying you guys aren't nearly on the order of any of those movements.

If you were you'd have some clout, rather than constantly clamoring for attention.

[MadHound]

53. "You guys"

Hey, I thought we were all on the same side here.

I guess not, I guess we're well on the way to being dehumanized. Way to be part of the problem there pal.

[SDuderstadt]

56. I'm not on the side of those who...

propose extra-legal remedies, no.

[MadHound]

57. Ah, so that would mean that you would oppose those in the Civil Rights movement,

The labor movement, the anti-war movement, gay rights movement, etc. etc.

Stay classy:rofl:

[SDuderstadt]

61. I don't recall any of them...

proposing a revolution. I supported those movements. I don't support yours.

[MadHound]

66. Wow, you do need to educate yourself,

I suggest that you start off with Zinn's "A People's History of the United States".

Shoo, go, off to the bookstore with you.

[SDuderstadt]

68. I suggest you provide proof of...

your claim.

[MadHound]

76. I just did, do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

Zinn, Howard, "A People's History of the United States". Available at your nearest bookstore.

No, I'm not going to quote the whole book here, that would be in violation of copyright laws. And since it is a book, on paper, it can't be linked to. Not all knowledge is linkable. Deal with it, and educate yourself.

[SDuderstadt]

78. Referring me to a single book doesn't...

prove your claim, dude.

[MadHound]

85. Have you read that book?

If not, then you have no clue to what you're talking about.

However, if you want another book, try these:
Berlet, Chip, Matthew Lyons, "Right Wing Populism in American".
Phillips, Kevin, "Wealth and Democracy"
Halberstam, David, "The Children".

If you want more, get back to me when you're done with these.

[SDuderstadt]

94. Dude...

when someone asks you to prove your claim, giving them the name of books doesn't cut it. Including Zinn's book, I have 4 of the 5 books you make reference to.

Now, please be specific.

[MadHound]

98. Funny, I only referred to four books,

Trying to count to quickly before spouting your nonsense of what you're reading?

And if you actually do have those books I mentioned, and have read them, then you have all the proof you need for now, and don't need me.

When one asks for proof, they are usually asking for a source to back up the claim being made. I gave you several sources, I backed up my claim. Deal with it.

[SDuderstadt]

113. Sorry...

miscounted and meant 3 out of 4. The only book I do not have is "The Children".

When someone asks for proof of something, they are not asking to be referred to a book. They are asking for a specific reference. I am not going to re-read whole books looking for something you won't even specifically identify.

Besides, your claim is specifically refuted by Taylor Branch's, "Parting the Waters", Julian Bond's. "Eyes on the Prize", and "Walking with the Wind", by John Lewis.

See how that works, dude? You cite whole books as proof and I cite whole books as refutation.

You'll have to do better.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sufrommich]

40. Here's some real research on who doesn't vote. Hint: It's got

nothing to do with revolutionary fervor.

http://www.rps.psu.edu/probing/voting.html

[MadHound]

52. Hahaha! I knew you would pick that one.

:rofl:

Meanwhile, back in the real world
"But apathy is only one reason why many Americans don't vote. One in four nonvoters--26 percent--doesn't participate out of anger with politics and politicians. But these deeply cynical nonvoters aren't the Angry White Males of the mid-1990s, the survey found. Today, women may outnumber men within the ranks of the alienated.

Another 25 percent of all nonvoters are disenchanted with politics--not angry, but dismayed by the incessant spin, the constant drone of campaign ads and the vast amounts of special-interest money that saturate contemporary campaigns."
<http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45c/051.html>


This has been a historical reality throughout the past fifty years. Go do your historical research and get back to me, don't just do the google.

[sufrommich]

69. So 1 out of 4 non voters are disgusted with politics. Not angry,

not revolutionary.Willing to accept whoever those who do vote elect. I fail to see this group of people rising up in the streets, but hey, go for it.

[MadHound]

77. I suggest that you go back and reread that more carefully,

You are not getting the entire story.

[sufrommich]

82. Really? Are these non voters considering revolution? How many

of them?

[SDuderstadt]

83. Quit trying to...

shut the OP up, by asking hard questions.

[MadHound]

87. Oh you know me, I don't shut up easily,

Though I do have to go weed my berries now. I'll be back later.

[MadHound]

86. Maybe, maybe not,

But they are increasingly dissatisfied with the system, and are no longer participating in it. Which was the point I was trying to make.

[socialist_n_TN]

116. Actually according to those stats..........

1 in 4 might be angry about the current state of politics (which is a pretty large percentage in and of itself), but there's ANOTHER 1 in 4 that's disenchanted with politics. No, not angry, but the ARE disenchanted. How far away is that from anger? I would venture to say ONE politically based act by the system that DIRECTLY AFFECTS THEM. Then that disenchanted bunch turns angry too.

[RZM]

124. They come in all stripes

I've known plenty of lazy apathetes who don't vote. I didn't vote until I was 24 out of sheer laziness. Most non-voters I know don't really have much of an opinion about politics at all, which is precisely why they don't vote. They don't love or hate the system, they just don't care about it.

[SDuderstadt]

35. These guys couldn't...

overthrow a popsicle stand.

[sufrommich]

36. True. nt

[cali]

30. I don't buy it for a second. The American people are uneducated, anti-intellectual

TV addicted and generally persuadable. Not to mention widely religious. And no, I don't see that the populace is largely liberal in the least little bit. You're deluding the fuck out of yourself.

[MadHound]

41. Wow, so you think that revolutions are made up of the intellectual elite?

I think you need to go back and read up on the labor movement battles during the first party of the twentieth century. By and large, those folks weren't educated either, and yes, many were religious.

And yet the polls prove you wrong, again and again.

[SDuderstadt]

45. Cite some of these...

polls.

[MadHound]

54. Go educate yourself,

Educating yourself is your responsibility.

Besides, I've got to weed the berry bushes. And I don't dance on command for one who likes to try and dehumanize me.

[SDuderstadt]

58. "Go educate yourself"

Translation: "I have no real proof of my claims".

Educate yourself on "trying to shift the burden of proof", dude.

[MadHound]

64. Duuuuude.

Look around, I've got a link above here, I've cited another author(Zinn) elsewhere. People who are much more educated about this than you are.

Dude.

But the thing is, if you want real proof, proof that you believe in, it isn't going to come from me, because you can't accept such proof from one that you so vehemently disagree with. You will become more involved in picking it apart in order to "win"(whatever that is), rather than educating yourself.

That is why I suggest you go do your own research, educate yourself. That why, there is no "win" or "lose" involved, just the absorption of knowledge on your part.

[SDuderstadt]

67. Dude...

where is your "movement"? Nowhere.

Hint: there's a reason for that.

[MadHound]

70. Where was the Civil rights movement in 1950?

Where was the anti-war movement in 1964?

It was there, it just needed a spark.

The movement for massive change is here as well, one has but to look at polls showing the discontent with where this country is headed, the calls for single payer health care, the calls to end the wars, etc. etc. The movement is there. All it needs is a spark.

[SDuderstadt]

73. Well, then...

provide it. What are you waiting for?

[MadHound]

79. LOL, how sad, how predictable

You are all so alike. When something like this is brought up, you immediately demand that it be done, now, by the poster, or otherwise the whole premise is somehow, someway invalidated.

Just because it doesn't happen immediately, or made to happen by me, doesn't mean it won't happen. But you understand that perfectly well, you're just playing the sad game of trying to shut me up. Sadly, for you, it isn't going to work.

[SDuderstadt]

81. How am I trying to...

"shut you up", dude?

Too funny.

[cali]

bwaahahahahahhahahhahah. pathetic. sorry, dear but it doesn't work that way

YOU fucking make a claim, it's YOUR fucking responsibility to provide the evidence for said claim. Otherwise it's made up dog shit and stinks to high heaven of dishonesty.

[eilen]

134. It is all made up fantasy. Don't be fooled.

Don't be alarmed. Life is like candy. We are all happy and comfy on our couches. Just turn the tv on and don't worry about silly claims about revolution and frustrated people who aren't happy unless they are ruining your fun or trying to get people to pay attention to them. I think the Real Housewives of New Jersey starts tonight. Like anyone cares about the malcontents. Prosense says that 85% of all democrats support Obama and are satisfied with his work. That's a solid B.

[bvar22]

75. Here are some:

This one is from 2005!
The numbers would be even better today

In recent polls (2005!!!) by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

Here is an easy WIN/WIN for the Democratic Party,
yet not a peep from our Party leadership.

92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

And then there are some more recent polls.
This is just one of several:

Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
"By their WORKS you will know them."

[ProSense]

90. Here's another

NBC poll: 80% said it was the right decision to kill bin Laden

[eilen]

135. And I bet they are happy his grandbabies are dead too!

Revenge fantasies aren't just for radicalized Muslims, lots of people like'em.

[eilen]

133. Nothing to see here, Go back to sleep.

There is nothing for you to be concerned with. Everyone is happy and satisfied with the status quo and nothing will change. You are absolutely right. The people are either lazy and stupid or in agreement with the way things are. No one is angry except for a few agitators that won't amount to a hill of beans and will tire themselves out.

It's perfectly safe to sleep behind those gates. Don't let the bedbugs bite.

[cali]

72. did I say that? no of course not. your desperation is evident.

and you, of course, as per usual, offer zip in evidence for your claims.

[MadHound]

101. You're certainly implying it.

"I don't buy it for a second. The American people are uneducated, anti-intellectual" as though working outside the system can only be done by intellectuals:eyes:

As far as evidence, there is plenty up and down this thread, go peruse it, educate yourself.

[defendandprotect]

60. It's a LIBERAL nation ... !! 80% want an end to the wars -- 76%+ want MEDICARE FOR ALL!!

On and on --

but that's the biggest trick in the rw playbook --

convince the public this is a rw nation by creating phony organizatiosn --

from the GOPs/Christian Coaliation to the GOPs/"pro-life" murderers --

All of the Christian groups were financed by Repug elites --

Richard Scaife funded Dobson's group -- other rw wealthy financed Bauer's group --

GOP gave START UP funding for the Christian Coalition -- !!

From the Koch Bros/T-Baggers to their DLC -- DLC funded by Koch Bros. and harbored

within the Democratic Party for decades!

From the GOPs/NRA which targeted not only liberals in the Dem Party but

liberals and moderates in the GOP, thereby moving Congress to the right --

On and on the fakes go --


Keep in mind also the voting computers which came in during the late 1960's --

Was there ever really a "Southern Strategy" -- or was there only ever Diebold computers?


Cheney was fond of telling us that "we create the reality and everyone else lives it" --

That was similar to AG John Mitchell's comments at time of Watergate that "this country

is going to move so far to the right it will make your head spin!" --

Rightwing is always seeking control over others -- control of government and its wealth --

Look at the CIA -- I've read there were times when as much as 50% of the Federal Education

budget was actually money for CIA covert operations!


After the death of William Buckley -- beloved by PBS! -- some CIA memos came floating out

which showed that the CIA had been funding the careers/campaigns of various rightwing

members of Congress -- two I'm aware of were Sen. Strom Thurmond and Rep. Gerald Ford -

but supposedly there were others --

Also that the CIA took money from any rightwing sources -- including the KKK and Nazis.

Others who got CIA money were Sen. Jesse Helms and Pat Buchanan --

[Hannah Bell]

103. and there's always a big contingent at DU telling us these astroturfer are representative of "the

people" so democrats need to move right.

[socialist_n_TN]

16. What? All 12 of them? Have you seen the HUNDREDS

of thousands that rallied in Wisconsin?

That's why a lot of us on DU think that a revolution would shift the country left. There's a LOT more of us than them showing up AT rallies and demonstrations. And we show up, not because we're paid to (like them), but because we BELIEVE in what we're rallying about. And we know WHY we believe in it. In addition, EVERY poll that comes out on ISSUES, we have SIZABLE majorities that support OUR positions.

THAT'S why we believe.

[sufrommich]

21. Do you think the protesters in Wisconsin want a revolution?

Looks to me like they are trying to recall the politicians who vote against them. Please show me where this groundswell is for using anything but legal means to protest.

[socialist_n_TN]

47. So what's going to happen when the "legal" means

don't work? And are obviously compromised by electoral fraud and NOTHING'S DONE ABOUT THAT FRAUD? Like in Waukesha County, WI.

Where does it go then?

[sufrommich]

50. I'm amused that you actually think there's going to be a

revolution in Wisconsin. I don't see a big groundswell calling for overthrowing the government,do you?

[socialist_n_TN]

112. That's NOT what I said..........

Try all the "within the system" remedies you want and they'll fail. When enough of them do fail, THAT'S when you'll see the people ready for extra electoral remedies.

[defendandprotect]

63. K/R for your post --

:)

[defendandprotect]

51. T-Party is a Koch Bros. creation -- !! Like the DLC ... it can be harmful but it's fake ...$$$

[The2ndWheel]

11. People have to have the ability to walk away

To disassociate. The issue is that there isn't anywhere that isn't within the system. You're left with no choice but to work within those political constructs.

"What history also shows is that progress for the American people only comes about when the American people are pissed, when they turn out in such large numbers, shutting down industries, cities, threatening the social and political order to such an extent that it forces the powers that be to sit up, take notice, and actually make a positive change, just to restore stability and order (which is valued by TPTB almost as much as they value money)."

This is all within the system. The threat of shutting down industries, cities, etc, is only to make TBTB sit up and change things. We wouldn't be doing those things for their own sake, regardless of the response from TBTB. Politely or rudely, that's still working within the system.

[MadHound]

15. I don't think that you're understanding what the system is,

IE our political system, where you are supposed to write your reps, vote for candidates, push your issues through Congress.

Yes, we have the right to protest, but protesting, especially mass protesting and civil disobedience is not considered to be part of the system. When you do so, as in the labor movement, civil rights movement, anti-war movement(at least for Vietnam), that's when you bring out the riot squads, the National Guard, equipped with guns and other weapons, firing into crowds, killing people.

That is the kind of mass movement, mass protests we need at this point to bring about change. That is the only proven method of bringing about change.

[socialist_n_TN]

17. WE've done all the protesting and it hasn't worked

We need to step it up. Strikes are the next step along WITH mass demonstrations and along WITH civil disobedience.

[MadHound]

19. Yep, that's what I'm saying,

Make it big enough, and have it hit hard enough in the pocketbook, and people in the power elite will start to take notice.

You don't politely ask for power, you have to take it, every single time.

[socialist_n_TN]

20. I know. DEMAND it loudly and rudely............

and don't be afraid to get arrested. They don't notice anything else. Thanks Hound for the thread.

[defendandprotect]

71. Well, certainly protests did work -- but rw always finds a way to reverse progress with $$$ ---

VN and anti-war demonstrations were halted by the government's violence in

shooting students on campus -- purposefully, imo.

Parents and other citizens who would have begun to join the anti-war protests imo

then became frightened for their children -- rightly so!


Civil Rights victories in ending Segregation were then attacked by rw takeover of

our courts -- and financing a new onslaught against education -- resegregating it --


Money buys illegitimate power for the rightwing -- as long as we keep enriching the

banksters and the corporations we're funding our own enemies!!


Think major strikes are the next thing -- but would begin in limited ways and first

try to show how the nation is united -- lights out for an hour -- taking cars off the

roads for 15 or 20 mins at a time -- using consumer tools to show unity -- thought the

idea of taking money out of banks that participated in bail outs was great and moving

money into community banks/credit unions. That kind of thing.

[The2ndWheel]

46. "is not considered to be part of the system"

"Yes, we have the right to protest, but protesting, especially mass protesting and civil disobedience is not considered to be part of the system."

By themselves, no, they're not. There was a time when protests were met right away with bullets. The TBTB learned from that though. It's easier just to let the people protest, especially if they get a permit for it. So now the eventual outcome of those protests make the protests just another part of the system.

The protests aren't about an actual alternative set up. They're about making people further enveloped in the system. They're about higher wages, or more rights, etc. There is no threat to the system. Better yet, to the foundation of the system. We may see the house remodeled every now and then. Some new paint, fix a few holes, replace a window, re-shingle the roof, but there's no other house being built. We're always working on and within the same house.

[blindpig]

14. Only when the people have demonstratable power are elections

relevant. The polls only ratify power which exists. First we develop and express the people's power, then to the polls.

[defendandprotect]

74. First, we need to dump the Diebold voting computers into Boston Harbor -- !!

Keep in mind these things began to come in during the late 1960's --

I'd question every election back to Nixon/Humphrey --

They couldn't keep killing people -- organized stealing of elections was the next

logical step for them -- and imo that's what Watergate may have actually been about?

Two journalists began investigating the computers in Florida in '69 -- and passed

their info on to Larry O'Brien head of the DNC at the Watergate -- pre "Watergate."


Here's a link to their investigation and the book they wrote which you can read

at the site --

Votescam -- The Stealing of America

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm



:)

[blindpig]

84. What good is that if the same parties and politicans dominate?

All that would prevent is the contending ruling factions from cheating each other.

First we need to develop popular power free of ruling class influence, then demanding unfettered elections has relevance.

[defendandprotect]

89. You think Democrats have control of the voting computers?

:eyes:

[blindpig]

102. Why should that matter?

They follow the ruling class agenda just as the Republicans do, the differences are of style and in social issues which effect neither the ruling class's power nor pockets.

[raccoon]

105. Right on! This one's a keeper. nt

[defendandprotect]

123. So you think Dems have been stealing elections as GOP has been?

2000 and 2004 were pretty noisy --

Did you see anything like that on the Dem side?

Or do you think they stole '08?



PS: I'm just askin' -- !!

I mean I get your point about fading differences between the parties --

but imo Repugs have been stealing elections with computers back to the late 1960's!

[blindpig]

145. What I'm saying is that the net results make the proposition moot

in that period even when a Democrat won the presidency or the party got control of the legislature that there has been no progress, just more regression. Carter got the ball rolling in Latin America and supported the genocide in Timor. Clinton, 'welfare reform', the bombing campaign in Iraq, and other stuff I can't remember this early. And now this guy, what's the point, how can it matter?

When voting becomes meaningful then election integrity will matter.

[defendandprotect]

147. You can argue with the entire set up -- as Pres. Carter does ... but even if you had

EVERYTHING going right -- no purges, candidates we actually wanted, no

corporate money --- and then you voted on GOP COMPUTERS, where would you be?

[blindpig]

149. But first you've got to have the power...

As that power cannot be obtained thru the electoral system it must outside of it. Thus the mass movement, the general strike. Once that power is suitably demonstrated then we are in a position to make demands.

[defendandprotect]

150. Well, correct -- but that's another issue --

And, I agree, as Howard Zinn made clear, real change comes from OUTSIDE of the parties.

The Senate is there to hold the status quo. And we have too few -- and too many wealthy --

members of the HOUSE for anything meaningful to happen there. Even the Founders were

unhappy with our low numbers in the people's house --

Last time I calculated the figures, US vs Great Britain, their representation was something

like 1 member for every 75,000 Brits -- whereas ours was 1 member for every 750,000 Americans!

Don't know what the figures are now, but certainly haven't improved -- especially with

Gerrymandering by Repugs.


It's not only our elections -- our entire system whereby the public and organizations truly

representing the public interest have been shut out -- only corporate power has influence

and leverage on Congress these days. Plus, we've pretty much been electing elites --

millionaires and multi-millionaires to Congress for decades.


Agree with you on strikes -- however, you have to recall that the highest union representation

America every reached was 39% -- think we're down at 7% now, or less?

With the largest union ever -- the Teacher's -- under attack by Duncan and Obama -- and DLC

Rahm.

They no longer have the $$ and therefore they no longer have the power to have leverage over

elected officials.

What you have to do is to appeal to ALL American workers as LABOR -- unite them in thinking --

and in anti-corporate actions. Lights out -- pulling cars off the roadway at a given signal

for 15 or 20 mins at a time -- cutting the banksters out of our shopping and foregoing the

credit cards -- and if you do strikes, imo, they should begin with brief strikes --

calling people out from 3:30 in the afternoon -- or at 11:30 for a few hours.

But you need to have every American identify as LABOR for this to go anywhere, imo.

[blindpig]

151. I don't think "we" have anybody.

Yeah, the whole racket was set up to obstruct the will of the people.

As unions go, we got our work cut out. However, conditions favor a resurgence of the working class as the illusion of the middle class is dissipated.

I would disagree with you concerning strikes, to be effective a strike must cause tangible economic damage.

[defendandprotect]

152. Agree with you --

Obviously, unions weren't able to really move into the South, as I understand it --

and wondering if there is any better possibilities on that now? I doubt it tho given

the forcefulness of the wealthy opposed to it.

Don't know about the necessity for a "strike" to cause economic damage -- I'll leave that

question to others -- but what is most necessary is to show unity!! That people are awake

to the issue and working together on it.

IMO, that's always our problem on these issues -- elites are organized in every way possible

-- via think thanks and using religion to move foul ideas -- up, down and every other way!

Citizens aren't united -- not even the Senior citizens except thru AARP which is an insurance

company! -- and obviously the Dem party no longer puts people in neighborhood's to talk to

them about the issues and the Dem stands on them!


:)


Just a PS on this -- when you're organizing don't forget the unemployed and long term unemployed!

There is someone organizing them -- think it's U-Cubed?

And certainly the "buy American" campaign has to be strengthened --

"Made in China" etal should be dirty words to Americans!!

IMO!! :)

[socialist_n_TN]

114. And we're OFF..........

What is the difference in voting for a Corporatist Party and a batshit crazy Corporatist Party? You're still electing a Corporatist Party. We need to set up a dual governing situation everywhere we can. One government of the politics as usual group and one of the actual people. We need bottom up councils and groups of councils that act as a "shadow" government that's actually OF the people. Benton Harbor, MI. would be a good place to start.

Now, that's not saying don't participate in electoral politics. All need to participate so that EVERYBODY will see the bankruptcy of this system and that WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BANKRUPTCY! IOW, participate so that people will see that we TRIED their way and nothing changed. Then we'll make some headway in convincing people for the need for extra electoral remedies.

The more bankrupt the system is shown, the more the movement for REAL change will grow.

[SDuderstadt]

115. "that act as a "shadow" government that's actually OF the people"

Is this a joke of some kind?

[defendandprotect]

153. True -- Don't see Dems giving up corporatist money -- and then there's Koch/DLC thing!!

Imagine the Dems harbored the Koch Bros. funded DLC in the Democratic Party --

and how many Dems never brought that to our attention!

Guess it wasn't worth even talking about?

And in 2010, where did chasing corporate $$ get the Dems -- ?

Repugs got 7 corporate $$ for every $1 corporate dollar Dems got -- !!

Wouldn't that seem to suggest they're playing the wrong game?

Of course, 45% of the Congress are millionaires and multi-millionaires and doubt

they'll give up on it to go straight --


We need bottom up councils and groups of councils that act as a "shadow" government that's actually OF the people. Benton Harbor, MI. would be a good place to start.

Do you mean outside of a party? One of the things I thought were so harmful was the Dems

withdrawing their people from neighborhoods -- so there was no longer any direct source for

a discussion of issues and what the party's position on them was.


Now, that's not saying don't participate in electoral politics. All need to participate so that EVERYBODY will see the bankruptcy of this system and that WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BANKRUPTCY! IOW, participate so that people will see that we TRIED their way and nothing changed. Then we'll make some headway in convincing people for the need for extra electoral remedies.

Well -- I'll be voting even if it's a write in -- and it is discouraging to think of people

dropping out -- we have a huge liberal voting bloc and no one organizing it to use its power.

In fact, it's being shunted to the side and demoralized!


The more bankrupt the system is shown, the more the movement for REAL change will grow.

That's probably very true -- however, the longer this goes on the much greater the damage to

the American people and their condition -- and in my estimation, the potential for a violent

outcome? Plus, our enemies continue to be enriched and strengthened.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

31. Just as long as you folks stay the fuck out of my state

where government works rather well and that includes working with the repubs in the state legislature.

[MadHound]

38. As Howard Zinn once said,

Bipartisanship is just another name for one party rule.

[cali]

55. and that has what to do with my post?

not much. government works where I live.

[MadHound]

59. Big difference between government working and good government

Dictatorial governments, one party governments work just fine as well, but they are rarely good governments.

Figure it out for yourself.

[leeroysphitz]

62. Well, you've got yours so I guess the rest of us can fuck off.

Good for you Cali. Glad you are so pleased with how things are going.

[defendandprotect]

91. Loved Howard Zinn -- still do!! Thank you -- never heard that quote before!! :)

[ecstatic]

23. Unrec. Can't stand defeatism nt

[MadHound]

27. Defeatism?

What is defeatist about this post? That I'm saying that our political system is broken. Sorry, but the vast majority of people in this country will tell you the same thing. Why? Because it is the truth.

Can't handle the truth, that's your problem.

[Lorien]

146. Recced to counter pro-status quo unrecc. nt

[fivepennies]

25. Still valid after all these years

Miracle on Main Street: Saving Yourself and America from Financial Ruin

http://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Main-Street-Yourself-Financial/dp/0911805001

Reader review: "I read this book in l984 and I was amazed. Something which is seemingly so complex is actually quite simple. Mr. Saussy gives the reader an excellent explaination of the intent of the constitutional framers in regard to our money system and to the honesty which such a system produces. For years I wondered about Mr. Saussy and only tonight I learned that he has returned and he has written a new non-fiction book for his audience. F. Tupper Saussy has returned and freedom lovers have an important symbol back! Read this book if you can."

[LoZoccolo]

26. Wrong: the Bush* era was made possible by an assist from the left in 2000.

Far-leftists were toying with catastrophic change tactics and still threaten to do so today. It's only gotten us more misery at the hands of Republicans. Perhaps working within the system would be more effective for their agenda if they were not sabatoging any progress that is made. Maybe that's an intentional effort to convince us that it doesn't work?

The fact is, we have a legitimate revolution in this country every two years in the form of elections, and no revolution is going to be easily sustainable without consensus. And once you've gained the consensus, you can win the election.

The system is fine without radicals trying to sabatoge it, and wasting all their effort that the could be using to gain consensus in order to do so.

[SDuderstadt]

28. + 1 n/t

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bvar22]

80. Wrong again.

Clinton's Anti-LABOR "Centrist" Administration created the VACUUM on The Left.
Vacuums are filled.
Its Physics.

[leftstreet]

108. +1

[LoZoccolo]

119. Do you at least think Kerry would have been better?

[defendandprotect]

43. Only agitation from outside government -- movements will change things --

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Two questions for you.

First, what is the longest strike you have been on personally. Second, in what ways would you say the GLBT rights movement did not, to use your phrase, work the system? Show me examples of strikes or extra legal actions. I'm not counting civil disobedience, as that is in fact part of the system. Where were the general strikes, the uprisings?
I think maybe there is much ground between what you call 'working the system' and the full tilt uprisings you are suggesting. The GLBT movement sure is not marked by the day we all left our jobs, or took over a city. It is marked by elections and protests and organizing. And change.

[MadHound]

92. First of all, civil disobedience, by its very nature, is not working the system

It is working outside the system, since it involves breaking the law.

And if you need a history of the Gay Rights movement, I suggest that you start with Stonewall and work your way forward.

Longest strike I've been on, a few months, why?

[RKP5637]

107. Yep, Stonewall was the turning point for the Gay Rights movement, prior to

that it was horrible. And Stonewall certainly wasn't a peaceful protest.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. No need to be snippy. I know the history. Trying to see your

parameters here. I was a part of much civil disobedience in the past. That really is a part of how our system works. At least it is closer to part of it than it is to an 'uprising'. No one gave up jobs, there was no property damage or violence involved. For me, when I read threads like this I think about the words being used. For me, personally, if a friend said 'join us in this civil disobedience for X' I'd probably join, if they said to me 'we are starting an uprising' I'd have many, many questions.
The fact is, during the entire GLBT rights movement, power was sought and used within the system, even when civil disobedience was going on. The fact is, the leaders and many of the people held positions in the system, the rest sought them out. Sure, they were 'disobedient' but also playwrights and business owners and studio executives. Or they sought to be those things, and very often did. So it is not a binary thing.
To me, actions that are 'outside the system' are not just illegal, they are those actions that place you outside the system on a long term basis. Martin Sheen chains himself to the gates, and 48 hours later he is being driven to the set by a major corporation that pays him huge amounts of money. Bobby Seal got gagged and put in jail. Weather Underground blew things up. If all of those are 'outside the system' then perhaps some modifier words might help. Lots of people might be willing to do things like Sheen or Dr King, Harvey Milk or Larry Kramer. They did what they did, but they did not give up the shop or the cross or the stage. They did not ask others to walk away from jobs either. You suggested that strikes and uprisings were a big part of the GLBT movement. I just don't see that.
I'd also say that if asking for clarification and context gets a nasty reaction, that does not bode well for mass communications of goals and actions. I mean, you still did not tell me what I asked you to tell me about how you see the history of the GLBT rights movement, you simply suggested I did not know that history. Having lived much of it, I just had some questions for one who would says we used strikes and uprisings. Not looking for information, but for your personal view point as to how that history supports what you are talking about. If that history is what you are talking about, then you are talking about running for office, writing law, staging huge protests, making theater, but you are not talking about 'uprising' as most would define it.
Hope that helps. I was not trying to challenge you, just looking for context and specificity. To define the terms. To discuss.

[defendandprotect]

100. Just an aside ....

I'd always highly recommend that the full population look to those who have

been oppressed to study the ways they have delivered themselves to freedom --

!!!! Intelligent and wise campaigns -- !!


However -- just as additional thoughts --

African Americans were recognizable to each other -- they knew they all suffered together.

Same with GLBT community --

Some of this is an argument about what ALL of America thinks and when they continue to

kill our leaders -- now even before they arise -- it is difficult to show how much we all

think the same and that this is a LIBERAL nation.

In fact, one of the major tricks in the rw trick book is to convince the public that this

is a rightwing nation! Money will buy a lot of lies.


So things are a little different when we talk about the entire nation -- LABOR competing

with labor globally as engineered by the right. Basically, labor competing with slaves.


But that would be my view on any new movement -- go to GLBT community -- go to African-

Americans, go to Hispanics who are still forming their movement/protests --

and women -- and ask for advice on a national movement.

But again, looks like any national movement is going to have to go forward without any real

leadership!



:)

[Zorra]

93. Sad, but true.

Good post, MH.

"The global power of the financial centers is so great, that they can afford not to worry about the political tendency of those who hold power in a nation, if the economic program (in other words, the role that nation has in the global economic megaprogram) remains unaltered. The financial disciplines impose themselves upon the different colors of the world political spectrum in regards to the government of any nation. The great world power can tolerate a leftist government in any part of the world, as long as the government does not take measures that go against the needs of the world financial centers. But in no way will it tolerate that an alternative economic, political and social organization consolidate. For the megapolitics, the national politics are dwarfed and submit to the dictates of the financial centers. It will be this way until the dwarfs rebel . .

You have here the figure that represents the megapolitics. You will understand that it is useless to try to find within it a rationality and even if you untangle it; nothing will be clear.

http://www.raptorial.com/Zine/Marcos/Marcos6.html

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. "Working within the system" is like trying to bluff a rich guy holding a Royal Flush.

They may let you play but you can kiss your shirt goodbye.

[hfojvt]

96. this might be a better argument if we had won in 2010

If public opinion is really solidly behind a single payer health care system, then the public is sure doing a crappy job of making that known at the polls. Especially in 2010 when the public which voted elected a whole bunch of Republicans who are not only against a single payer system for all, but have voted to end medicare.

I will say it again. If we cannot even get people to vote, then how the heck do you expect to get people to demonstrate and strike and uprise (whatever the heck that means).

You seem to be just hoping that a radical group of 5% can effect change just by being violent enough even though the vast majority does not really want that change. At least not enough to vote for it.

[ProSense]

97. "Otherwise, if we continue to politely work the system, we are simply playing into their hands"

What do you mean by "politely"?

What are you suggesting?

Revolutions need leaders, not armchair quarterbacks.

When do you plan on implementing your suggestion?

Wonder if this is how MLK got started? Though it's apparent he had a better understanding of the social climate.

[Starry Messenger]

99. k&r

[girl gone mad]

106. k & r

[slay]

109. Cool - at least some people see it

This quote pretty much nails it: "The political system is simply not set up to bring about change, but rather it is set up as a control method, one designed to force us to expend our energy working the political system. In the end, that energy is dissipated and the change is minimal. Not to mention that with corporate control of our government, the political system is rigged against we the people."

[RKP5637]

110. IMO there is clearly an undercurrent of discontentment growing and growing. What

is needed is a catalyst. I have no idea what that catalyst might be, but many people already have things they assumed came with America disappearing. But, when people see Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and safety nets going away more and more, more cornering of the wealth of this nation to a few hundred people, and more wall street, banking, corporation shenanigans, people are going to really wake up looking for action.

At this stage I see/hear no really strong leaders, for example, like MLK to rally the people to a cause. Maybe that will happen, but on the present course I don't see much change. One aspect concerning today, more and more, the technology exists to hold the masses in line and probably, eventually, servitude.

Also, Logan's Run, Fahrenheit 451, Soylent Green and The Corporation keep coming to mind.

[mountainlion55]

120. Strike Strike Strike!!!

If we are truly concerned about the future then we must change from a consumer based economy to a resource based economy! The rub is you cannot do that within our totally screwed up system. So our best tool to accomplish said change is to withhold our labor. It will not be easy or pretty or quick, but IMO its the right thing to do! OVERGROW the government!!:smoke:

[Bucky]

122. What else is there?

sigh ==> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1114309&mesg_id=1114309

[RZM]

125. I would say protesting is definitely 'working the system'

Outside of the system would be breaking the law, right?

[Bucky]

126. Thank you!! I believe it's called the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

But fuck "Free Speech Zones." There should only be one of those in this country, but it should be very big.

[Fumesucker]

129. How about this protest?

Any laws broken?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAp6YAPtC2c

[RKP5637]

132. Works for me! Too bad this didn't get lots of runs on MSM. I've seen this

before, but as I recall only on You Tube.

[RZM]

143. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think any laws were broken n/t

[defendandprotect]

142. Well, these days they've pretty much made protesting illegal -- haven't they?

Unless you agree to be penned up in a "free speech zone" -- and think that's

actually free speech!!

:evilgrin:

[mmonk]

131. It will take a movement. We can't sit on our asses any more.

[bluestate10]

136. Getting republicans elected will get you down a rabbit hole. nt

[KoKo]

140. I think, honestly, that not enough American People are Pissed Off enough to make the changes

that are needed. They just aren't there yet. It will come...I wish I wasn't here when it does...but it will come.

We hoped to resolve things with this election to keep a "melt down" from coming. But, it was not to be.

Who we elected can't do it...and so it all has to play out in it's own good time...which we now can't do anything about.

Keep bottled water, canned goods and a "get out bag" packed at all times.

But, keep faith that we can get through these times...because many of us have been through so much hell in the past few years that we are used to "dealing and coping" with the challenging situations that life throws us.

We had just hoped for better to cut off the "suffering" before it reached such a huge proportion of America's families. GLOBILIZATION....(take a long time to cut off the head of that hydra)

[white_wolf]

144. This system is too corrupt to change from within.

It has gotten to a point where we have a one party state, the Corporate Party, with two factions vying for power. Whoever wins we lose.

[BzaDem]

148. You better hope that isn't true, because the fantasies posited throught this thread and DU are

exponentially less likely to actually result in change than change from within the system (notwithstanding the denial).