The Death Penalty Increases the Murder Rate

[Taverner]

What do Louisiana, Alabama and Tennessee have in common? That's right, they are the states with the highest murder rates. Know what else? They also have the Death Penalty, and they use it.

Now, what do NON Death Penalties have for murder rates? The highest murder rate in a Non-DP State is New York, and its murder rate is HALF of Alabama's.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

This idea that the DP is any kind of a deterrent completely loses steam here.

Truth is, the DP does increase it. How you might ask?

Well to me, the Death Penalty is far lighter of a sentence than Life in Prison. You get a nice meal, maybe a cigarette and then go to sleep.

Life in prison, however, is something to be feared. Never to see outside the walls of a prison again.

It's a no-brainer to me.

[Bladian]

1. All very true points

But the thing as I see it is, yeah, you're "going to sleep." But you also bloody well know that you ARE NOT waking up again. Once you lay down on that table and feel that needle or IV or whatever they happen to use enter your arm, it's game over, baby.

[geckosfeet]

9. So what? If I can cut murder rates in half without a death penalty, it's a no brainer.

[Bill McBlueState]

2. death penalty enthusiasts would say...

that Louisiana, Alabama, and Tennessee have a big problem with violent crime, and the death penalty is a tool they use to address it. In other words, that the causative arrow goes in the opposite direction from what you claim.

It sounds like BS, but that's what they say.

[EOTE]

3. Then that destroys some of their other arguments.

Such as red states being morally superior to blue ones and that cities are centers for crime and violence.

[Taverner]

4. Exactly - and those folks really wish they could say that...

"It's because of all those black people!!"

But we know that's bullshit, and they should get over themselves and realize that's bullshit

[Bill McBlueState]

5. anytime they get to comment anonymously,

the words you put in quotes are exactly what they say.

[X_Digger]

6. Be careful conflating causation with correlation.

As a statistics professor many moons ago said, "A horse's front hooves correlate in speed with it's rear hooves. But you wouldn't say that one causes the other."

[Taverner]

7. Au Contrair

The front hooves do cause the rear hooves to move - if the horse were to not move their rear hooves, they would still move forward, albeit awkwardly...

[X_Digger]

10. *snort* n/t

[ChoppinBroccoli]

8. As A Person Who Has Studied This Issue Extensively...........

............I can tell you that the correllation between the death penalty and the rate of violent crime in any State is true, it is provable, and it is undeniable. EVERY independent study done on the subject, and we're talking studies that span DECADES, has come to the same conclusion. You think the evidence that global climate change is happening is clear and convincing? The results of these types of studies are even more so. And yes, just like global warming, you CAN find studies out there that claim otherwise, but they're all conducted by groups that are in the tank and bent their evidence in order to come to their desired conclusion. There is simply NO TRUTH to the claim that the death penalty deters crime. NONE. It is exactly the opposite.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

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[aikoaiko]

11. Tell me why, if you can, almost every convicted murderer fights for life in prison if it is...

...the light of the two sentences when compared to execution.

[kick-ass-bob]

14. Well, duh, they don't want to die.

But that has nothing to do with them thinking 'oh, I better not kill this guy because they might execute me' which simply does not happen.

I think we should cut out death sentences because we are in times of austerity - and they cost more money. WHAT ARE THE STATES THINKING?! :silly: :freak:

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. And most auto accidents happen within 2 miles of home.

Same shitty stats abuse going on with the death penalty thing.

[PDJane]

13. Oddly enough,

When the death penalty is abolished, in most places the murder rate goes down...except, IIRC, for California, which doesn't conform to statistical norms anyway.

[Taverner]

15. California really is a different country

Unlike Texas, which only pretends to be :evilgrin:

Seriously though, as a Californian (blessed by the most holy of all states, amen) I realize we are different. The fact that we were the last state to number exits speaks volumes.

[former9thward]

16. This is a terrible use of statistics to mislead people.

This leaves out the role of cities which have the most murders. When you mix city data with rural data you get a meaningless statistic. The OP says NY murder rate is half of Alabama. Yet New York City which has most of the population has a rate of 7.3 compared to Alabama's 6.9 Chicago which is the population center of a non-DP state of Illinois has a rate of 22.1. Detroit has a rate of 41.8 in a non DP state. http://www.morganquitno.com/cit02r.pdf

This also leaves out the role of an effective DP. Most of the so-called DP states have not had an execution in a decade or more. To call that a deterrent is silly.

[fishwax]

18. But Birmingham has a rate of 26.5

"This leaves out the role of cities which have the most murders. When you mix city data with rural data you get a meaningless statistic. The OP says NY murder rate is half of Alabama. Yet New York City which has most of the population has a rate of 7.3 compared to Alabama's 6.9"

Why compare NYC to Alabama?

Out of the top 25 cities in the link you provided, only D.C., Detroit, and Flint were in non-DP states/jurisdictions. The figures are from 2002, when New Jersey and Illinois both still had the death penalty, so Newark, Camden, and Chicago don't really count. Illinois had imposed a moratorium on executions, but still had the death penalty as a possible sentence. FWIW, Chicago's murder rate is now a bit lower than 22.1--it was somewhere around 16 for 2009, and in 2010 the city had the lowest number of homicides since 1965.

[former9thward]

19. Why compare NYC to Alabama? Because the OP did.

When was the last time IL executed someone? My point. The so-called DP states don't execute anyone.

[fishwax]

21. the OP compared NY state to Alabama

"When was the last time IL executed someone? My point. The so-called DP states don't execute anyone."

And in the absence of executions, the murder rate has declined considerably from the numbers you posted.

[former9thward]

27. You are picking and choosing stats.

You can't compare stats from so-called DP states to non-DP states if the DP states are not executing anyone. Look at the stats from mostly rural states and compare them with non-DP states that have large urban populations. The DP states have a far less murder rate.

[fishwax]

30. actually, the OP did just what you are suggesting should be done

"Look at the stats from mostly rural states and compare them with non-DP states that have large urban populations. The DP states have a far less murder rate. "

Well, urban areas tend to have a higher murder rate than rural areas regardless of whether the death penalty is there or not.

Actually, though, what you suggest is just what the OP did. New York is mostly urban, but has a lower murder rate than Alabama, which is much more rural. Of course, New York City itself has a higher murder rate than Alabama as a whole, but a lower rate (by more than half) than the three largest urban areas in Alabama. And also a lower murder rate than the three largest cities in Texas.

And if it's an issue of there not being enough executions, why isn't the murder rate in Texas lower? The five states with the most executions are Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Florida, and Missouri. Of those, Missouri has a higher murder rate than any non-DP state. Texas, Oklahoma, and Florida have a higher murder rate than any non-DP state but Michigan. Virginia has a higher murder rate than any non-DP state but Michigan and West Virginia. All have a higher murder rate than New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts, all of which are states with a very high urban population and no death penalty.

On edit: deleted redundant paragraph

[former9thward]

31. We could go on and on with these stats.

What about the DP states in the west which have a far lower murder rates than NY or other non-DP states? How is that explained if the thesis is having a DP somehow increases the murder rate?

My point is that this is a false argument when the DP is not used but is still on the books in most states. Even in Texas if you commit a murder the odds you are put to death because of it is far less than 1%. I favor the DP (not as a deterrent but as punishment) but if it is not going to be used then it should be scrapped.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

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[Kaleva]

20. Close to 1300 people were executed back in 40's when the homicide rate was very low

That's several more times the number of executions that have taken place since Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad back in the 70's.

[Liquorice]

22. So do you think if Vermont all of a sudden had the death penalty,

murder rates would go up to the levels they are in Alabama? I doubt it. I doubt it would make any difference at all. People generally don't decide to murder or not to murder based on what their punishment would be if caught. I can't imagine anyone thinking, "yep, I was going to murder but then I realized I'd get life in prison instead of the death penalty, so I'm not going to do murder after all..." Murders are basically either spur of the moment, or carefully planned. The spur of the moment murderer has no time to think of the consequences and the carefully-planning murderer plans on not getting caught.

I oppose the death penalty, but not because I think it makes murder rates go up.

[Kaleva]

23. Most who commit murder think they'll never get caught and face prosecution.

At least those who have committed pre-meditated murder.

[Liquorice]

24. Yes, that's what I wrote. nt

[divvy]

26. It increases it by the number executed n/t

[BOG PERSON]

29. that's odd

why would they include lawful executions in the murder rate? that doesn't make sense.

[AngryAmish]

28. Now go write, 100 times, that correlation does not equal causation.

That would be a start.