I don't care what you think of me, I'm glad that we shot OBL dead

[LynneSin]

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why this should not have happened but I don't care. I'm glad he's dead and here's why.

1. Over 3000 people didn't have a choice on 9/11 of whether they could live or die. Many were trapped in a building so tall that there was no way they could get to the bottom to safety. One of the most haunting photos from 9/11 was a picture of 2 people jumping out of the WTC building that day - there were dozens who lept to their death that day because they felt that it would be a less painful death then burning in that fire. My heart does not weep for the fact that OBL now swims with the fishes.
   
2. No matter what Obama and the Navy Seals did, the Right-Wing would still find fault in what happened. If we brought him to trial, the RW would say Obama was weak because he wouldn't order the trigger be pulled. If we show the pictures the RW said we were trying to use OBL death to promote Obama. If we said 'black' the RW would say 'white'. With them - it's easy to know what they think because it's the opposite of whatever Obama does. Ironically if Obama did everything the RW asked him to do they would then disagree with what they originally agreed with.
   
3. I'd like to think in a few months this will all die down and go away. It was a big shock to finally hear the guy is dead. But if captured him and put him on trial, this would be a media sensation for years to come. He would also be able to be a rallying point for the Al-Qaida/Taliban organizations that have supported him over the years - he'd probably turn into another Ayatollah Khomeini or something like that.
   

Now let's get our troops out of Aghanistan and Iraq. I realize we can't pull them all out immediately but set a deadline and get them out.

Thank you!

[Trajan]

1. While I agree ... ...

Yet another thread for piling onto those who are piling on ? ....

This one is going to take years to wind down ....

[LynneSin]

2. Even if it takes years, it'll still die down quicker than if we took him alive

and brought him to trial.

[CelticThunder]

3. "Die down and go away"? Because that's what martyrs always do? Snort.

[The Magistrate]

6. Martyrdom, Sir, is Highly Over-Rated

A charismaric and enegetic leader will achive far more alive than he can inspire from the grave.....

[DevonRex]

18. Especially now that we have film of his pathetic life at the end.

He certainly didn't look very charismatic or glamorous sitting on the floor watching that tiny tv.

[Trajan]

35. If you think about

He was already condemned to a life of small dark rooms, furtive glances, little external contact and constant fear ...

No crowds ... No glorious speeches ... His life was already over, in any meaningful way ...

Killing him released him from his self imposed prison ... in a way ...

[CTyankee]

45. plugged into a puny powerstrip dangling on the wall...

how pathetic is that...

[Shagbark Hickory]

4. OK that settles it then. The great and powerful wizard of Oz has spoken. nt

[LynneSin]

10. He did - where the link to his post?

My rantings are like one of those flying monkeys, makes just about as much sense

:crazy:

[Shagbark Hickory]

17. right here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1082114&mesg_id=1082114

[LynneSin]

23. Hahaha

guess you missed the joke but oh well.

[Bonobo]

5. The emotions are understandable.

However I cannot understand how intelligent people cannot see how this kind of lawless action is setting a precedent that will bite us in the ass.

What happens when Chavez or someone else decides that THEY have the right to decide themselves that someone constitutes a threat to their security and sends a hit squad to another country?

Will we tell them they can't? Is it because the US is strong and Venezuela weak?

Is it because we have higher moral standing?

How does that work?

[LynneSin]

8. Your points are very valid and I thought about it

And if it was a lesser person, one who has not had the impact on this country that OBL has had, I'd agree with you 100%

However I just can't muster up those feelings when it comes to OBL, I'm trying but it's just not happening.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. And that is exactly why we have laws -

for those times when our feelings, our emotions, might rule our actions.

When in doubt, abide by the law.

[Bonobo]

33. And it's not just emotions...

What happens when a leader of a country has a good POLITICAL reason for offing someone.

The US, with this action, has provided cover for future politically motivated killings by muddying the water.

[The Magistrate]

9. Surely, Sir, You Do Not Imagine No Country Has Ever Had An Enemt Killed On Another's Soil Before?

"The strong do what they will, the weak what they must."

[Bonobo]

14. You are correct. I know it has happened.

And stop calling me Shirley.

[The Magistrate]

24. Then You Know, Sir, the Precedent is Long In Place, And the Answers To Your Other Questions as Well

This is what countries do, if they have the capability to do it.

[Bonobo]

26. Of course you are speaking about realpolitik and I am speaking of ideals.

So yes, I know it may sound naive and childish from that perspective.

But at least here, on a message board, I would like to hear people be as honest as you are being and not pretend that there is not a double standard in play.

[Raffi Ella]

41. yes.

YES.

I thought about this when Chomsky talked of them coming into our air space and doing the same to Bush.

As cold as it may sound, as imperialistic as it may be We Could and We Did. And in this instance I am PROUD and Grateful that we have the capabilities to do that, period.

Say what you will atop that high horse but let it be known: Don't Fuck With America. Simple as That.

You people must, on some level, realize what a Good Thing that is...

[LynneSin]

15. Hell we've done it, I keep think Chile

:scared:

Of course we got Allande, who was someone decent, and installed Pinochet, who was one of the more notorious brutal dictators out there. He wasn't in the Hitler/Stalin numbers for killing his own people but he wasn't picking daisies either.

[DevonRex]

7. Well, I think you're just wonderful.

I'm glad he's dead, too. KnR

[LynneSin]

11. I'm a pain in the ass and you know it!!

But thank you!

[DevonRex]

21. Haha. Just means you have character. :).

:hi:

[OHdem10]

12. 80% of Americans agree.

[Keith Bee]

13. K&R

I posted something similar a few days ago.

[DinahMoeHum]

16. Agreed. The RW and the GOP can go suck a big fat lemon.

and the navel-gazing nitpickers on the LW can eat it raw.

What's done is done.

Now let's concentrate on winding down our involvement in Afghanistan (if indeed the intent on going there was to get OBL to begin with)

Then there's the issue of Iraq.

IMO, getting the US into a war in Iraq (yeah, you, Bush, Cheney, etc) delayed our getting OBL for at least 5 years. And given what's happening in other Middle Eastern countries with the populations rising up against autocratic governments (peacefully, in most cases), Bush and Cheney robbed the Iraqis of their own opportunity to participate in an "Arab Spring". Iraq was a fuckingly rotten red herring in the WOT.

[LynneSin]

19. Your last paragraph is the 100% reason why Bush deserves no credit with OBL death

Bush had the ability to find him - Clinton gave him information when he turned over the White House plus we had him cornered in late 2001 at Tora Bora.

But Bush didn't care, gave up and tricked us into going into Iraq.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. i think point 2 is why it happened the way it did.

[LynneSin]

25. It's one of those "Damn if you do and Damn if you don't" situations

And in this case I'm glad it was "Damn that we did"

[jaxx]

22. I'm glad too....and thanks!

We are not the minority in thinking this way.

[gratuitous]

27. So, what did bin Laden have to do with 9/11?

I don't care what you think of me, but I really, really liked the Constitution and that whole "due process" thing. While not perfect, it does a pretty good job of sorting out the guilty from the not guilty (even a few innocent folks). I also was proud that the United States was a signatory to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, particularly sections 3 through 11. I'm so old, I remember when the United States had more trust in its system than in its ability to project imperial militarism. Those days are gone, but I'm hopeful that we can change that and bring them back eventually. Heck, even the Peruvians were able to put their former leader Alberto Fujimori on trial. I guess the world should look elsewhere for its model of civilization. We're too scared by the terrorists and too buffaloed by the demagogues to follow our own rules anymore. And otherwise canny people applaud.

[LynneSin]

29. What I think of you? Here's what I think of you...

I think you're a damn smart DUer with good opinions.

:pals:

[backscatter712]

28. The killing was perfectly legal.

Congress authorized the use of force right after 9/11, so for Constitutional purposes, we were at war with Al Qaeda. It was just like declaring war against the Barbary Pirates, except like other modern-day armed conflicts, it wasn't called a "war" but an "authorization of the use of force."

We are at war with Al Qaeda, and in war, it is legitimate to target the enemy's generals and leaders. Just like shooting down Admiral Yamamoto.

And yes, count me in the majority here that is damned fucking glad we did it, and shows zero remorse. The left-wing Sirota-style nitpicking is just fucking stupid. And don't get me started on the right-wing fucktards. If Obama killed him, they criticize him for not capturing him. If he took him captive, they criticize him for not killing him. He's black, so nothing he ever does is good enough for them.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

47. + a million.

[Bonobo]

31. I want to give LynneSin big props.

For discussing things with respect and giving weight to other opinions without snark and without dumbing down the conversation.

Hurray for that and thank you, LynneSin!

[EFerrari]

40. Seconded. n/t

[patrice]

32. K&R - Good writing, LynneSin!

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

34. Closure.....

No matter how one feels about what transpired, it is time to use what was learned for the future and be grateful for some closure, no matter how it came. IMHO

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Not to mention that the radicals among the bin Laden groups would

begin taking American hostages in return for bin Laden.

[pnwmom]

38. That's what I think would have happened.

Or another bombing -- the first trade center attempted bombing was in protest against the U.S. holding an influential imam. Imagine how they would protest if we were holding OBL.

[The Backlash Cometh]

39. Easier to take hostages.

[leftyladyfrommo]

37. I'm sure he expected to die by the gun.

You can't live the way he did, kill the number of people he did, do the harm that he did and expect not to be hunted down and killed. It was inevitable.

[EFerrari]

42. That makes perfect sense to me.

I don't feel that way but I do remember every minute of September 11 and the days following, those poor people walking all over Manhattan in shock with pictures and hand made signs and not realizing yet that their loved ones would not ever be recovered. All of that.

The thing that I most worry about is that we hang onto who we are as we move through this situation. Experience should tell us that whenever the Pentagon or some part of our government decides to bend the rules overseas, we always pay for it in some way here. And it should tell us that when we treat our enemies badly, we are putting our own troops at risk in addition to eroding our own position as a leader in the world.

[StarburstClock]

43. I don't care what you think of me either

when I'm grave dancing.

[JuniperLea]

44. Me too...

Not like me at all, but yeah, me too.

So many victims, the 3000+ who have died so far... those on the scene at the time and those who died because they tried to help... plus the living victims, the families, the mothers, fathers, children, spouses, siblings... who have been living a life of pure hell since that horrific event.

I have very little empathy... not even for the sons who are now somehow thinking they have the right to be appalled... well, I guess they do, but I also have the right not to give a flying rat's ass how they feel right now.

[Capitalocracy]

46. It would have been better to capture him, if possible.

And with a new report out saying the administration had a legal team ready in case he was captured, hopefully that's true and this really was a case where they didn't have a choice.

But to address your points:

1. Sure, they didn't give those 3000 people a trial. But we give them a trial. Why? Because we're better than them.
2. Who cares what the Republicans think?
3. This one is a bit more complicated. There may be violent responses to a trial, and yes, it will be on the news quite a bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Destroying a dangerous ideology is something that happens through due process of law. Historically, I think it's safe to say there have been better results in terms of people drifting toward an ideology or away from it if there are trials. I think we'd have more neo-Nazis than we do today if it wasn't for the Nuremburg trials. In Argentina, where the murderous military dictators were rounded up, put on trial, and sentenced to life in prison, there is a lot of social pressure against their ideology. In Chile, where Pinochet died fat, happy, and free at over 90 years of age, fascist remnants in society are much more prominent. Trials dissect the actions and ideology of these criminal leaders and exposes them to scrutiny in a way that seems to be pretty effective in undermining the ideology and preventing it from spreading beyond the core followers.

[EFerrari]

48. How criminals may manipulate a trial is no reason not to have one

or you wind up with a justice system essentially run by criminals.

[Capitalocracy]

50. Totally agree. nt

[madokie]

49. You damn right I do

I went through SERE school with the Seals and stayed there helping in the training afterwards and I'll vouch for their integrity any day. Not many have what it takes to be Seals or UDT.

[guitar man]

51. Agreed

I'm glad he's dead too.

As far as the legalities and all that, I'll let the legal minds debate that ad nauseum if they want. All I know is, I wouldn't have wanted to go in there like those SEALs did. It took a hell of a lot of guts to do what they did, going after cold blooded killers who have also been known to have a suicidal streak.

Despite all the intelligence gathered, there was no way to know if any of them were wearing explosives or if they had the whole joint wired up to blow for that matter. These guys have been known to play with explosives. Whether or not any of them appeared to be armed with a rifle, pistol, shotgun or other hand weapon, there was no way to know who might have access to a detonator, how close they were to it or even what it looked like. If I were on that team I would have been inclined to shoot everybody in sight as fast as I could to keep them from blowing me and my teammates up.

So the one thing I won't do is criticize or try to pick apart the actions of SEAL Team 6. They're more than allright by me. :patriot:

[Lugnut]

52. I'm with you. n/t