Judge tells woman who made sex noises not to make unusual noises in her home.

[madfloridian]

The utter inanity of this situation blows my mind completely.

Judge Stargel and his wife, Kelli, a member of the Florida House, are also practicing Christians like the sheriff, Grady Judd. The judge today appears to have given credibility to the charges of faking sex noises, translating it into simulating a sex act. The lady's lawyer pointed out that this charge can carry up to 15 years jail time.

The complete stupidity of this situation was on show in the court room today, with the father claiming that now his son is afraid to go out of the house. Really?

The judge also ordered the lady to stay away from all children and not to make contact with her neighbors. I find the Channel 10, Tampa, headline quite pointed. I like it. It is as though they recognize the mindless way in which these charges are going forward.

Judge warns atheist activist not to make sex noises

Otto Lehman testified Wachs made sexual noises near a window inside her home to keep his 10-year-old son from playing basketball in the driveway, and that it has scarred the boy.

"He's very fearful of even going outside right now," Lehman explained.

He and prosecutors argued Wachs' actions, including allegedly repeatedly yelling, "Oh, John," make her enough of a threat to the community to keep her in jail without bond.

Poor baby. :eyes:

The case will continue. Here are the words of the judge. Unbelievable.

On Friday, the judge settled on a $6,000 bond for Wachs. He also warned her not to make unusual noises around the house. She's also banned from making contact with her neighbors or minors.

He told a woman not to make unusual noises in her own home.

This county, the judge, the sheriff, Mr. Otto Lehman, and state attorney, Jerry Hill, should be hiding their heads in embarrassment.

A google search shows this is being spread internationally. These people who are claiming to do these things in the name of religion don't even seem aware that they are looking very silly right now.

[aquart]

1. The judge, I take it, never heard anything "unusual" from his wife?

[Adsos Letter]

4. !!!

:spray:

Ah, my.

[Boojatta]

80. Never? What an insult to the judge!

It happened sometimes. However, it was unusual.

[jmowreader]

85. He wouldn't

The judge's wife closes her eyes and thinks of England.

[cactusfractal]

137. Doubtful. The Stargels are cold fish and fully Jesused-up... n/t

[madfloridian]

153. Indeed.

His office once told me abortion was murder, and that Stargel would vote always according to God's will. I asked what about the will of his constituents...the aide said he answered to God.

[murielm99]

2. The Christians aren't looking silly.

They have nothing to do with it. The judge, sheriff, the state's attorney, and the family who are harassing this woman look silly. All the Christians in this area are not responsible for these fools. Nor is it their job to denounce them.

I get tired of seeing Christians broad-brushed on DU.

[madfloridian]

3. "I get tired of seeing Christians broad-brushed on DU."

I am simply pointing out their actions.

The bible says by their actions ye shall know them. I was raised Southern Baptist in that area, and these folks are in high places of power. They are misusing their faith to tell a woman what she can do in her own home.

[RC]

11. Then maybe the Christians in question should act more like

then have a working brain. They sure don't in this case. If the shoe fits...


It's amazing how the definition of "Christian" changes to fit or distance itself from the situation.

[TorchTheWitch]

116. their actions have nothing whatsoever to do with their faiths nor hers

Or should I say, her lack of faith. This is about an obscene abuse of power by government officials against a woman who has been a loud thorn in their sides because of their other abuses of their offices.

What should be obvious to anyone is that this is not an abuse of their faith (it isn't their faith that arrested her and threw her in jail on grossly absurd charges) it's abuse of their government positions to persecute a woman they dislike, not because she's an atheist but because she has been for some time a thorn in their sides loudly pointing out their other abuses of their government positions.

Making up some kind of religious excuse for all this is horribly bigoted and small minded it ignores the REAL issues involved which is a LOT more terrifying than any religious excuse could ever be. Since the dawn of religion it's been used as the excuse for peoples' abhorrent and heinous actions on purpose in order to hide the real and unpopular issues and to rally the public to their side. But in the case of this horribly persecuted woman at the hands of government officials, religion has NEVER been and still isn't even the excuse much less the real reason.

And no, these grossly abusive officials aren't looking "silly", they're looking absolutely fucking scary as shit for what they're doing. Trumping up an outrageous excuse of sex noises that weren't even sex noises in order to throw an outspoken citizen in jail without bond blatantly and without batting an eye is one of the most frightening things I've ever seen happen in our justice system and that's hardly something one could term "silly"... there is NOTHING "silly" about this kind of blatant and outrageous judicial abuse.

[madfloridian]

158. I disagree. Wow, you took this very personally.

Indeed it is tied to their practice of their faith.

Don't lecture me about bigoted, please. I grew up in the SBC, and I know it first hand.

You must not have read my post very carefully if you think I said all that.

[rucognizant]

170. How..........

Does a 10 year old boy know what sex noises sound like anyway?????????????

[RegieRocker]

168. Oh YES IT DOES!

[madfloridian]

8. I changed the wording to avert criticism. By their actions ye shall know them.

[madfloridian]

12. "Nor is it their job to denounce them." Indeed it is their job.

If Christians who believe this is wrong don't speak out, then this kind of thing will continue.

[murielm99]

27. Then it is the job of all the atheists to denounce

this silly woman for making sex noises around a child. Her behavior is open to criticism, too. Go ahead now, all you atheists! Get busy with your denouncing!

[madfloridian]

29. She was in her own home at 8:30 am. They had to be really close.

Of course she is being antagonistic, but they are charging her with a crime that carries 15 years in jail.

Your sarcasm is noted, and so is your sentiment. I am not an atheist, and I am not a church goer right now....so I am free to criticize both. Nice feeling to do that.

The judge told her not to make unusual noises in her own home. You seem to be defending that.

[murielm99]

32. Of course that is not what I am saying and I believe you

know that. I am objecting to the broad-brush condemnation of Christians, and equating all Christians with these foolish people like the judge, the sheriff and the woman's neighbors.

[madfloridian]

33. I think you also know that I was not broad-brushing anyone. I see danger.

I see much danger when people in power use their faith to prosecute unfairly, and to order a woman not to make unusual noises in her own home.

I will not back down from that at all. I at once changed the wording when I saw it was offending, but I was right.

People who think this is wrong need to speak up and not to excuse it.

[BobbyBoring]

150. I see danger all over America

These are the people that want to take back America for god. The one's that falsely claim we were founded as a Christian nation. A return to the Inquisition days and witch hunts would thrill them to death.

And....... they aren't just in Florida~

[immoderate]

69. Christians are only foolish when they act on the basis of religion.

Most things that most Christians do are perfectly OK. It's when they are carrying out the "will of god" that they do stupid shit.

This woman is an atheist and the sheriff and the judge are persecuting her for it. And if they weren't Christian, they wouldn't do that.

--imm

[vim876]

127. Come on. Really?

You think these same people, if they weren't religious, wouldn't persecute people for being different than they are? What are you smoking, and can I have some? People with low tolerance for difference will find any difference they can to weaponize, and if no differences exist, they'll make them up. Religion is not special in that respect.

Also, when Christians do the "will of God" by feeding the hungry, comforting the bereaved, responding to violence with love, etc., you think they're doing stupid shit? In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya, "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

[immoderate]

140. Stop by, we can share a bowl.

I can't speak for the sheriff and the judge, their ratings with the public are generally high. Have they slapped any "Christians" with a possible 15 year sentence for making noise? Only this atheist activist? Their religion gives them a justification for what they are doing. They feel righteous in persecuting this poor woman.

The kind of reasoning that leads people to be atheists usually allows them to shed racism and a lot of other irrational prejudices along the way. You may not accept that rational thinking is anathema to racism, sexism and religion, but it is generally so.

Some people are into "feeding the hungry, comforting the bereaved, responding to violence with love, etc.," because they think they are racking up points with the deity. Others see them as the right thing to do. They are not religious. They are normal behaviors of sentient beings. They are adopted by religions, but they are cited by every ethical system religious and secular. Christians did not invent the idea of feeding the hungry, nor was it a revelation of any spirit, who until that time allowed all hungry people to starve to death.

Religion is not about doing good deeds, it is about spooks who can condone inhuman behavior.

--imm

[ZombieHorde]

36. She did nothing wrong. Sex noises are not bad. nt

[hobbit709]

68. "Oh, John" is making sex noises?

give me a break. Screaming "I'm coming" might be sex noises.

[av8rdave]

110. Good point....but the, where do you draw the line?

If the Mrs. needs help upstairs right away and calls for me, I'm liable to shout "I'm coming" as I head up the stairs.

At least at THAT point, it is not a "sex noise."

If simulated "sex noises" are scarring that kid, I sure as hell hope he isn't watching any TV!

[sudopod]

144. Is loud sex illegal? Did I miss something? nt

[mlevans]

161. Or not.

Screaming "I'm coming" might indicate merely that you were on your way downstairs to answer the doorbell. Even "Give it to me, baby, gimme all of it" is open to interpretation.

[krabigirl]

75. Lol, oh noes, the child knows what sex is! Big deal! Excuse me while I puke.

[Mariana]

81. He only knows those were "sex noises"

if someone TOLD him they were "sex noises". How else would he know? I suppose it's possible he's walked in on the folks sometime in the past, or maybe he got hold of his dad's porn flicks and watched them.

Most likely, though, Dad told him, and also told him that the woman is someone to be afraid of. If the kid really is scared to go outside, as Dad says he is, that's why. If that's what happened, Dad is a disgusting person and a lousy excuse for a parent. He terrorized his son because he wanted to get the atheist in trouble.

[Occulus]

89. "around a child"

I thought she was in her home. Are you trying to say the kid trespassed?

[2banon]

102. please say you're just kidding...

right?

[DireStrike]

112. It was a creative way to get rid of an annoying brat.

I don't denounce, I applaud.

[Cherchez la Femme]

115. I find nothing to denounce

what she did wasn't classy, I'll say that;
but it did do the job, didn't it?

Who is pulling religion, or lack of belief, into this anyhow?
Did she moan 'I'm a proud Atheist! Oh! John!!"?

So if she didn't bring her (lack of) belief of God into this story, who did? The neighbors? The police? The DA office?
For what agenda? To further demonize her?

Sounds to me like she's being singled out because of her atheism; add to it this from the judge:
Don't go near children! Stay away from your own neighbors!
Are the poor, scared, damaged child & his family her only neighbors?
That judge has virtually isolated her!

As lepers of old had to do, may as well order her to ring a bell of warning
-- not only in public but in her own house!
After all, atheism could well be contagious; just like that damn homosexuality!


I have never seen Christians, here or any other place, criticized for being 'true Christians'
i.e. following the Golden Rule.
Have you?
So what exactly is your problem with pointing out hypocrisy?
Should Christians --many who judge, then judge some more-- be exempt from criticism? Why?

[snooper2]

122. you were born before 1960 correct?

[M_A]

163. This Atheist

Thinks the lady was quite clever and applauds her attempt to solve an annoying problem with some neighbor kid without anger & rage. It is scary as shit the theocratic power being thrown around by the judge and his ilk.

[Mariana]

50. Indeed. If these jerks were getting grief at church

for behaving like assholes and making the rest of them look bad, they'd likely drop this shit right quick and act more like decent human beings.

[vim876]

126. No, they wouldn't.

They'd find or start another denomination.

[Union Scribe]

56. oh fuck that noise

People in groups as large as "Christianity" aren't responsible for commenting on everything every single other member of the group does. You sound like those baggers who denounce Muslims for not sufficiently decrying radicals.

[madfloridian]

58. When the leaders are arresting people on trumped up charges...

yes they do need to speak up.

Thanks for saying I sound like a bagger. That really makes my day.

[davidthegnome]

169. You're assuming

That a significant number of them are even aware of this. I'm pretty sure they aren't.

I think they should speak up when something like this happens in the name of religion, God, whatever. I don't think though, that the ones who haven't got a clue something like this happened (which is likely, the vast majority of them) are obligated to react to something they don't know happened.

Here at DU - and even over at the free republic, or other political forums/sites, we are in the minority. Generally, people prefer to work and live without stories like the OP interfering with their lives. Too inconvenient. Doesn't matter what religion you're a member of (if any).

Not just Christians - but any and all rational beings should denounce something like the idiocy displayed by a Judge here. Not just the Judge, but the Father as well and a number of other people. This is so far from justice or anything our justice department should even be involved in that it's laughable. So as a former Catholic but current agnostic (or is it gnostic? I always forget the difference) I denounce this behavior straight to hell. If there was such a place I wish the Judge could visit it for a while.... well, maybe we could send him to Afghanistan.

You don't sound like a bagger - but I get why the above poster is upset. Lots of broad brush comments going around, even though yours might not have been intended as such, religion and spirituality is something we all tend to take seriously in one way or another. Too seriously, if you ask me.

[Cherchez la Femme]

142. My, my -- you sure are the poilite one, ain't ya?

:rofl:

[BobbyBoring]

149. That's an interesting thought mad

People often say the same about Muslims. Good Muslims should denounce the fanatic jihadists. The problem, the fanatics in both religions claim to be the "Real" what evers kind of like the tee party types claiming to be the "Real" republicans.

I would love to hear the nut jobs denounced in all religions. Don't think it will happen though~

[Hugabear]

15. Maybe politicians and law enforcement types should stop using religion to harass others

There's plenty of religious nut-job craziness down here, trust me.

[krabigirl]

54. Meh..I wish liberal Christians would speak out more against the loony ones.

[murielm99]

55. I spend plenty of time speaking out against them in my

own community. We have a church here that is a stealth Assemblies of God church. I don't know what they do to people to rope them into joining, but they are very successful. They have their fingers in every pie in this town, and I don't appreciate it. I have spoken out so much that many of my friends are getting tired of hearing me talk about this church.

I have written letters to our newspaper when other Christians or Christian groups in the area do something I find particularly stupid. I make it clear that I am a Christian, but I don't think these right-wing born again Christians represent me at all. I have been called every name in the book, but I don't care.

I don't like militant Christians. I don't like militant atheists, either.

[krabigirl]

73. Good for you. Fwiw I am not an atheist, but I don't mind the militant atheists as much.

They don't try to force their beliefs on everyone by making things like prop 8, or go after women for enjoying sex, etc.

[onpatrol98]

109. I wish blondes would speak out more

I wish blondes would speak out more...or gays...I'm sure a gay person did something stupid somewhere...let's find one and tie his stupidity to every other gay person alive. I mean, it would be stupid to do it. But, it would be a great way to express my bigotry against gay people, by pointing out when stupid things are done by gay people and then using it as an example of how other gay people push their agenda against

WTH???

But really, maybe it's northerners...I mean those people have a culture of their own...don't they? They should speak out more. I mean...look at Blagojevich. Northerners should speak out more about people like him. I mean...their silence is tantamount to acquiescence. Isn't it?

-----------------------------------------

Could DU exist if every time someone wrote, or said, or did something stupid (or even perceived as stupid by an outsider), the entire community had to defend it?

When do we get sick of doing that? One bad incident at a public school = all public schools are bad. One bad teacher...a crime committed by one person of color...one bad foster parent...one bad ???

[cleanhippie]

67. "Nor is it their job to denounce them. " - Uh, Yes, it is.

Especially when it is those beloved "christian values" that are the root CAUSE of the matter.

[trud]

98. I agree with muriel

No religion should be broad brushed. There are a lot of objections, and rightly so, in DU when someone does this to Muslims, why is it "okay" to do it to Christians?

[ooglymoogly]

107. Oh yes it is.... and it for this attitude that these lunatics have any voice

at all.

[w4rma]

151. It absolutely is their job to denounce them, else everyone think that their silence is agreement. nt

[Wilmer]

165. The substitution test:

Although it's not the sort of thing that any of us can prove, I share the impression of many here that the judge in this case is abusing his power, probably owing to his personal religious beliefs. Consequently, he's not fit to sit.

That said, I also tire of anti-Christians statements that fail the Substitution Test. I tried inserting the words "Muslim" and "Jew" and "Wiccan" and even "Atheist" in place of "Christian" in some of the remarks in this thread (especially the ones accompanied by statements like, "I know all about these people....!"), and came up with lots of new sentences that, I suspect, would have been purged from this site so fast our heads would spin.

But even more to the point: Had this been a case of a middle-aged male making sex noises within earshot of a 10-year-old girl playing just outside her home, I suspect a lot of participants in this thread would be reacting very differently, As in: 180 degrees differently.

Had that been the case, and had the parents asserted that the child felt traumatized, could you imagine someone on this site responding by saying "Poor baby"...?

Me neither.

[Wilmer]

166. The substitution test:

Although it's not the sort of thing that any of us can prove, I share the impression of many here that the judge in this case is abusing his power, probably owing to his personal religious beliefs. Consequently, he's not fit to sit.

That said, I also tire of anti-Christians statements that fail the Substitution Test. I tried inserting the words "Muslim" and "Jew" and "Wiccan" and even "Atheist" in place of "Christian" in some of the remarks in this thread (especially the ones accompanied by statements like, "I know all about these people....!"), and came up with lots of new sentences that, I suspect, would have been purged from this site so fast our heads would spin.

But even more to the point: Had this been a case of a middle-aged male making sex noises within earshot of a 10-year-old girl playing just outside her home, I suspect a lot of participants in this thread would be reacting very differently, As in: 180 degrees differently.

Had that been the case, and had the parents asserted that the child felt traumatized, could you imagine someone on this site responding by saying "Poor baby"...?

Me neither.

[madfloridian]

167. Oh, come on now. A 10 yr old boy afraid to go outside because of "Oh John"?

I am sorry but my "poor baby" stands. And I stand behind it.

That is a very weird thing for that parent to say.

[Angry Dragon]

5. I do believe him that it sounded like sex sounds

Because that is what his wife says when they are having sex.

'Oh, John, Oh, John, Oh, John, Oh, John, Oh, John!!'

Too bad his name is OTTO............... just saying

[Cherchez la Femme]

143. Heh

I still laughed at the the second time I read it!

Good job! :applause:

[Dappleganger]

6. Please call them fanatics, because that's what they are.

They are about as "christian" as my doorknob. Fanatics are the problem here, they are extremists. I am also tired of the broad-brushing.

This fellow Floridian knows about these jerks and we have them all over the state (especially central FL on up) but they do not represent ME.

[madfloridian]

14. I changed the wording. But I am right. They are representing that community in this area.

And those who disagree need to speak out or be lumped in with those like Grady Judd, the judge, and others.

[LiberalFighter]

35. Absolutely they are representing the Christians in the community.

If they hold elected office, they most likely included that they are upstanding christians in their community and included the church they attend as well as any Sunday school teaching or adult classes.

[madfloridian]

39. They are the "pillars" of the church they attend.

They speak for them.

My father was a pillar of the church when he was alive. He never would have acted like that. He was open-minded and kind.

[Dappleganger]

61. Thank you for that.

But you need to remember that christians such as myself (I don't live in central FL) really don't have anything to do with those people, nor do we have anything in common with them. They are just fucking crazies who need to go away. I do vote and refuse to elect anyone associated with a fundy church.

I speak out all the time but don't lump us together with the nuts.

[madfloridian]

62. These people are in power here....

because their fellow church members, or whatever term you want me to use...voted them in. They campaigned for them in religious settings.

I am surprised to hear you say I am lumping anyone in with anyone. How can I speak out for injustice without pointing out these are elected officials? And beloved ones, at that.

No, they are not considered "fucking crazies", they are elected and chosen officials.

[Dappleganger]

65. And I vote against them every time.

The only way to beat them is for us to get more of our people to the polls.

[atreides1]

16. Yes they are fanatics!

But they are also Christian fanatics...fanatic fails to show what kind of fanaticism they practice...because Christian fanaticism is different from Islamic fanaticism...

[Skip Intro]

7. I'd be a little upset if a grown woman was intentionally making sex noises around my 10 year old.

just sayin'

also agree with the poster who complained about broad-brushing Christians...

[madfloridian]

10. I changed the wording, but by their actions ye shall know them.

You would fit well into this county and its processes.

[Skip Intro]

13. Well, thanks for the summary judgment.

Sounds like the woman is being antagonistic, to me. She did ask them to stop making basketball game sounds in their driveway before she decided to make sex noises audible to a 10 year old kid, yes?

Sound to me like she's the one with the problem.

Btw, feel free to make any and all sweeping assumptions about me based on my stated opinion of this particular situation...

[madfloridian]

17. Of course she is being antagonistic. In this area atheists can't do that.

Or they will go to jail.

You really think she deserves 15 years? Really?

You really think a 10 year old hearing such noises is traumatized that much?

Really?

Atheists in Central Florida better damn well toe the line or they will get serious trouble.

I was raised Southern Baptist, raised my kids there....but hubby and I left the church and they don't go either. It's become a hollow shell of what used to be real faith.

I will keep you posted when this lady gets what she deserves.

[Skip Intro]

21. I think she should quit fucking with the 10 year old kid, firstly.

And then work something out with her neighbor.

Do you not find it ironic and hypocritical that she's complaining now about being able to make such sounds within earshot of a KID all because the kid and his father didn't adhere to her wishes they stop playing basketball in their own damn yard?

No, I don't think anyone involved should get jail time. But, imho, she needs to grow up a little. And leave the damn kid alone.

[madfloridian]

22. Whatever you think.

.

[madmom]

138. There in lies the problem IMO.....you are claiming the child should be able to play

ball "in his own damn yard" but at the same time this woman is being told she can't make "sex" noises in her own home. Yelling "Oh John" is sex noises? It seems to me the kids father is the one who "needs to grow up a little".

[BobbyBoring]

152. ummmm

She can't work anything out with her neighbor because she is forbidden to have contact with them and she wasn't fucking with the kid. She asked him to stop playing and that lasted 10 minutes. The noises she was making were made in her damn house.

Maybe if the kid did normal kid stuff like stay in the house and play X Box instead of playing noisy, unhealthy basketball, there wouldn't be a problem at all.

[Angry Dragon]

156. And how do you know they were sex noises??

It seems you might be jumping to conclusions based on facts not in evidence........

There has not been a trial of any kind.........

Everything is based on what the 10 year old thought he heard

[ThomCat]

23. In her own home?

My answer would be, if you or your 10 year old are so close that you can hear her having sex inside her own home, go someplace else. You're both being nosy. It's you two who clearly have the problem.

She should have the right to make any noise she wants inside her own home. It's her home!

As for complaining about broad-brush attacks against Christians, maybe more people would agree that any such thing exists if Christianity wasn't constantly being used as the default reason to restrict other people's rights. That's a broad-brush attack. But the people who complain about Christianity being smeared never seem to have any problem with Christianity being used as a club against so many people's rights. There's no comments about that. We just see complaints to stop talking about Christianity when people comment about the way Christianity is often being used as a weapon against other people. Odd the way that seems to happen. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

26. Yes, it is being used as a weapon in this case. I changed the wording, though.

But it's a dangerous precedent.

[WinkyDink]

63. Window. Next to neighbor's driveway with the hoop.

[ThomCat]

84. So? Does that mean that mean that your freedoms inside

your own home disappear if anyone wants to stand near your window, where they can see and hear into large parts of your home?

Do people have to live in windowless homes in order to have rights within their homes?

[madfloridian]

88. Good point.

:hi:

[LiberalFighter]

94. If they are that close then there is the possibility of being a peeping tom.

or maybe in this case a listening tom.

[ZombieHorde]

37. I have a ten-year-old, and I wouldn't care. nt

[Art_from_Ark]

111. When I was 10 years old, my friend showed me a Stag magazine

It was right there on a magazine rack in a drug store, and I thought "So THAT's what a woman looks like"!
Traumatized the crap out of me


--- NOT!

[krabigirl]

74. Upset enough to send her to jail?

I don't understand the hoopla about kids knowing what sex is.

[trud]

99. around your 10 year old

She was in her own house. That's hard "around" anyone else's child. And I hope you are bringing up your 10 year old with better manners than the kid in this case has.

[Orrex]

9. "My wife is so noisy that when she makes sex noises around the house

She really makes sex noises around the house."

[boppers]

18. WTF is an "atheist activist"

Do they run around, radically not-believing in things?

[ThomCat]

25. That's any atheists with the nerve to tell a Christian that they

really are atheists. That's considered such a radical act by the Christians that they simply must be radical activists who are out to destroy the world or something.

:wow:

[LadyHawkAZ]

38. Allow me to assist...

[madfloridian]

41. lol

I did not want to laugh at that...but I did.

Thanks.

[2banon]

104. Perfect description & Great Art!

is that your work?

[LadyHawkAZ]

105. Sadly no

I'm lucky if I can get a stick figure right. It's been handed around the atheist groups I belong to for a while now.

[2banon]

155. I love it..

:thumbsup:

[Aerows]

72. Your comment cracked me up!

:rofl:

[Poll_Blind]

19. This is absolutely outrageous.

PB

[madfloridian]

20. Agreed. I hate to see this behavior excused here at DU.

[ThomCat]

31. I agree. That sheriff's behavior should have gotten him fired.

To see the judge cooperating and making it worse just makes it so incredibly unjust that you wonder if they have any real concept of civil liberties down there.

:grr:

So she has been arrested for noise she made in the privacy of her own home.

The court is now regulating what noise she can make in the privacy of her own home.

This is all targeted at her specifically because she is an atheist, so discrimination based on (lack of) religion is okay.

In most places, a 10 year old making enough noise to wake up a neighbor at 8:30 am would normally result in a noise complaint. He would have been the one in trouble, with the cops knocking on his parents door to tell them to keep their kid under control until a decent hour. But there, because the parents are Christians, and sheriff doesn't like the atheist retired lawyer, things don't happen that way.

Wow! Just... Wow! :(

[onpatrol98]

124. In what place???

In what place does a 10 year get in trouble for playing basketball in the morning in his own yard? The lady should definitely NOT be in trouble or go to jail...but, why can't the kid play ball in his yard?

As for 8:30 am...I guess my household is already up and about at that hour...but since I have a child that plays basketball as often as possible...THANK GOD for my nice neighbors.

1) Cranky Lady should not go to jail.
2) Cranky Lady should be able to make the sex noises she wants in her own home in peace
3) Noisy Kid should be able to play basketball in his own yard in peace
4) We should all be able to get along...noisy basketball playing children, women who make sex noises in their homes, Christians, and athiests...

I think she wanted a good fight, got more than she bargained for or deserved, and lost. The town needs to get a grip. Too much crap going on in the world for this to get them so worked up.

---------------------------------------

This seems so simple to me.

[madfloridian]

24. "He also warned her not to make unusual noises around the house."

I simply do not see how anyone who believes in personal freedom could agree with a judge telling someone that. They seized her computer with the data about the lawsuit against the sheriff for moving public property to churches. Now they are planning on taking this to trial. They sent a swat team to her home...can you believe that? They tore the place apart.

10 to 15 squad cars, and many policeman.

All for an atheist woman who moaned in her own home at 8:30 am in the morning when she was tired from a chemo treatment.

I see the same pattern starting in this thread as has gone on this week about Bin Laden. We must accept and agree with his killing, or we are looked down upon here.

It's a stay in line kind of thing, and it worries me a lot.

[rubberducky]

100. Tha`s the reason I rarely post anymore. As for the story I find it very scary that this even made it

to court. It seems that the country has gone crazy in the past few years.

[hootinholler]

129. Your Honor I assure you that those noises are quite usual.

Especially when I'm having great sex.

Currently, "Oh, Hoot" would be during foreplay at my house. Think the van scene in up in smoke turned up a notch or two, with the C word thrown around for good measure, lol.

-Hoot

[Codeine]

28. "Those aren't unusual sounds at all, but I'm not surprised you don't know that."

:evilgrin:

[struggle4progress]

30. ... According to the affidavit, the 10-year-old boy was playing basketball when Wachs yelled through

her open bedroom window for him to stop. The boy was joined outside by his father, who asserted his son's right to play the game. Wachs then started making moans and other sounds that simulated sex until the boy and his father finally stopped playing basketball and went inside, the affidavit said ... Wachs was previously out on bail on a charge she was practicing law without a license ...
Activist arrested for making 'loud sex noises' near children
http://www.ksn.com/content/news/also/story/Activist-arrested-for-making-loud-sex-noises-near/aWW1_NIn_0mJDOLGXHosCA.cspx

... A retired attorney from Pennsylvania, Wachs was arrested last month for practicing law in Florida without a license ...
Florida Woman Arrested for Faking Orgasm to Try and Get Her Neighbor's Son to Stop Playing Basketball
By Kyle Munzenrieder, Fri., May 6 2011 @ 2:04PM
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/polk/sheriffs-atheist-opponent-out-on-bond-05062011

... Liguori also said Wachs, who's been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, hasn't been getting her medication since her arrest ... Last month, Lehman sought a restraining order against Wachs, which prompted an investigation by law enforcement. The restraining order is pending ...
Judge Gives Embattled Atheist Ellenbeth Wachs Bail and A Warning
By Suzie Schottelkotte
THE LEDGER
Published: Friday, May 6, 2011 at 7:07 p.m.
Last Modified: Friday, May 6, 2011 at 7:07 p.m.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20110506/NEWS/110509549/1001/business?Title=Judge-Gives-Embattled-Atheist-Ellenbeth-Wachs-Bail-and-A-Warning-

[ThomCat]

34. Charged with practicing law without a license because she

signed her name with "esquire" after her name? :wtf:

Is that all it takes to be charged with a crime? She didn't even have to actually do anything that actually amounts to practicing law within that state?

That is crazy!

And then to deny her access to her medications? :grr:

Unfortunately, that is all too common in jails and prisons.

[struggle4progress]

46. I don't know the facts of any of these cases. She does seem to have managed to become

embroiled in a number of controversies in rather short time

[madfloridian]

49. She was a lawyer in PA, retired here.

She is with an atheist group which is suing the sheriff for giving public property to churches.

She and her group are going after powerful law enforcement. These are the people who have faith-based prison pods and allow baptisms in the jail. Yeh, I know. Nothing wrong with that except they play favorites.

Nothing she has done is deserving of jail time without bail for a week and being deprived of her medications....and facing a possible 15 year sentence.

[struggle4progress]

52. Could be. As I said, I don't know. I naturally support separation of church and state, and

would of course object to surplus public property being sent preferentially to religious organizations

I don't know what Florida statute says about presenting oneself as an attorney. In most places, it's illegal to practice law without a license

The neighbor has a separate and earlier action for restraining order pending. I have no opinion about that either

Neighbor. Local government. State AG. She's racking up people who don't like her. For all I know, she might be right about it all, but one might naturally wonder if there's some pattern here

[madfloridian]

57. Your stance is quite clear. But the neighbor's complaint was WHY she was arrested.

It took a long time for him to get the proper ears in state leadership to listen enough to get the swat team and all that power there.

However here is more on the lawyer part...there is no law. And if a law saying annoying neighbors existed....the jails would be full.

I gather none of that bothers you very much...the swat team, the many patrol cars, the destruction of the computer, and tearing up of her house?

Here is what I wrote previously:

"Let’s see if we have this straight. EllenBeth Wachs, a noted Polk County atheist who belongs to Atheists of Florida, was arrested in early March, charged with practicing law without a license, simply based upon the say-so of three individuals with whom she has clashed: Gow Fields, the mayor of Lakeland; Ann Gibson, legal affairs coordinator for the Polk County Sheriff’s Office; and Stacy Butterfield, a board member of the homeowners association in the subdivision where Wachs resides. Butterfield also happens to be the director of finance and accounting for the Board of County Commissioners.

...Her computer and other personal effects were confiscated. On her computer was the information and other documentation that was to be used during the deposition. Without that data, the deposition had to be rescheduled."


But wait for this part:

"But a private dispute between Wachs and the homeowners’ association in her subdivision, of which Butterfield is an officer? How did that appear on the state attorney’s radar screen, and why?

Without question, Wachs and Atheists of Florida are a thorn in the side of a number of people and institutions. Her organization advocates an unpopular belief and does so vociferously. That she chooses to exercise her right to freedom of speech and does so in a manner in which she was educated, trained and once licensed to practice (in Pennsylvania), is her right.

As is her right to use the term “Esq.” or “esquire,” since no Florida law forbids its use by anyone not licensed to practice law in the state. Hanging a criminal prosecution on the use of this word and the impressions of others is, well, to put it bluntly, a little flimsy."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1051155&mesg_id=1052002

[struggle4progress]

66. ... Chip Thullbery, a Polk County assistant state attorney and spokesman, said he wasn't aware that

Chip Thullbery, a Polk County assistant state attorney and spokesman, said he wasn't aware that the group had another attorney. "If they had a lawyer, she was it," Thullbery said. The case began to develop when an assistant state attorney, working another case involving the Atheists of Florida, started to wonder what firm Wachs worked for ...
Atheist activist accused of misrepresenting herself as a lawyer
By TBO.COM
Published: March 03, 2011
http://beta2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2011/mar/03/atheist-activist-accused-of-misrepresenting-hersel-ar-5259/

There are any number of potential issues. What exactly, for example, is the Florida law on matters related to practicing law without a license? What does the neighbor allege in the separate prior action for restraining order, and what is Wachs' response? I suppose I should thank you for pointing out her recent dispute with the Homeowners Association, which I hadn't been aware of, though it doesn't shed much light, since I don't know what that dispute was about. After googling a bit, I realized she played a role in a story discussed extensively earlier this year at DU (namely, the Polk County School Board prayer), she having been ejected from a school board meeting for objecting to a prayer led by a volunteer before the meeting. That's quite a lot of conflict in a short time.

I don't know the facts here, as I've said repeatedly, so I think having an opinion at this point would be pointless. Maybe she's completely right, about it all or most of it. Maybe there's a conspiracy against her simply because she's an atheist. Maybe she has psychiatric symptoms from her multiple sclerosis: it can produce plenty of bad effects, sometimes including psychosis. Maybe she and everybody else in town are all jackasses, and we're just watching a bunch of jackasses bray and kick at each other. How should I know? I'll say again: I don't know the facts here

[madfloridian]

71. I have an opinion about keeping her in jail for 6 days without medication.

I have an opinion about a judge telling her not to make unusual noises in her own home.

I have an opinion about using a swat team and multiple police cars to arrest a lady who is no physical threat.

I see that you don't. I am going to back off and say good bye.

[struggle4progress]

79. Have a nice day

[hobbit709]

70. She IS an attorney albeit retired

That gives her the right to sign her name with esquire even if she isn't practicing law. Did she have clients that she was representing for payment-NO. That would be practicing law without a license.
I know several retired attorneys and they sign their names that way.
It's a BS charge and a vendetta by the local PTB.

[madfloridian]

76. Correct. And there is no law against it in Florida. Link.

http://www.lakewalesnews.com/articles/2011/04/30/opinion/columns/doc4dbb18aa3b21b250265529.txt

"Her organization advocates an unpopular belief and does so vociferously. That she chooses to exercise her right to freedom of speech and does so in a manner in which she was educated, trained and once licensed to practice (in Pennsylvania), is her right.

As is her right to use the term “Esq.” or “esquire,” since no Florida law forbids its use by anyone not licensed to practice law in the state. Hanging a criminal prosecution on the use of this word and the impressions of others is, well, to put it bluntly, a little flimsy.

Should our state attorney’s office, which does a great job of prosecuting criminals, use its good office to prosecute someone who is a thorn in the side of the county’s political establishment?

Wachs has repeatedly emphasized she is not practicing as an attorney in Florida precisely because she is not licensed. Wachs’ arrest has the appearance of retaliation, aimed not just at her but at a minority that many scorn."

[struggle4progress]

78. State ex rel. The Florida Bar v. Sperry, 140 So.2d 587, 591 (1962)

Many courts have attempted to set forth a broad definition of the practice of law. Being of the view that such is nigh onto impossible and may injuriously affect the rights of others not here involved, we will not attempt to do so here. Rather we will do so only to the extent required to settle the issues of this case.

It is generally understood that the performance of services in representing another before the courts is the practice of law. But the practice of law also includes the giving of legal advice and counsel to others as to their rights and obligations under the law and the preparation of legal instruments, including contracts, by which legal rights are either obtained, secured or given away, although such matters may not then or ever be the subject of proceedings in a court.

We think that in determining whether the giving of advice and counsel and the performance of services in legal matters for compensation constitute the practice of law it is safe to follow the rule that if the giving of such advice and performance of such services affect important rights of a person under the law, and if the reasonable protection of the rights and property of those advised and served requires that the persons giving such advice possess legal skill and a knowledge of the law greater than that possessed by the average citizen, then the giving of such advice and the performance of such services by one for another as a course of conduct constitute the practice of law.

from ABA pdf: www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/.../model_def_statutes.pdf



454.23 Penalties.—Any person not licensed or otherwise authorized to practice law in this state who practices law in this state or holds himself or herself out to the public as qualified to practice law in this state, or who willfully pretends to be, or willfully takes or uses any name, title, addition, or description implying that he or she is qualified, or recognized by law as qualified, to practice law in this state, commits a felony of the third degree ... http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2010/454.23



As I said before, I do not know the facts in this matter, nor do I know the Florida law. I have not seen the complaint and do not know for certain what facts it alleges. Apparently Polk Law blog is following this and promises to link to the complaint eventually, if the matter interests you. See http://www.polklawblog.com/archives/tag/ellenbeth-wachs

[struggle4progress]

83. Somebody seems to have listed her as an attorney here:

http://www.lawlink.com/attorney/385927

[Cherchez la Femme]

128. I was just wondering

do retired MD's lose their right to be called or sign their name "Dr."?

If not, what's the difference? Can not a retired attorney give legal advice? At all?

These small people have an agenda, they have power and they're not afraid to abuse it.
But ooooh no, don't you go dissing Christians -- those are the real victims, that's all that truly counts here! :puke:

[ThomCat]

51. Anytime you go someplace where people fit into one nice neat

demographic package, anyone who doesn't fit that demographic package can very easily find himself or herself in the middle of controversies without ever even trying.

Simply by being different other people make you the center of controversies and insist it's your fault.

By being an Atheist (and outspoken about it) in a very Christian area she was bound to have a target painted on her.

Being a woman, going up against an authoritarian man also makes her a target for levels of abuse he wouldn't consider against another man. Never forget or underestimate the effects of sexism.

Her being a retired lawyer was an opportunity he felt he could take advantage of. If she had been a man he might have been worried about how good a lawyer she really is, and might not have gone after her with both barrels this way. But as a women he appears to have figured she couldn't have been that good a lawyer and wasn't worried about her coming back after him legally. I hope he's fatally underestimating her, and this bites him on the ass, damn hard.

[struggle4progress]

53. Could be. I grew up in a community where I didn't fit in, so I'm not unaware of how ugly

things can get. But I don't know the facts here

[Cherchez la Femme]

130. You were given many facts via reportage

Many articles. So you can cut the 'oh, I don't know the all the facts, but...' song & dance
And then you actually quote legal information you looked up!
You wouldn't want to be accused of practicing law without a license, would you?

[Pithlet]

40. I think jail and the whole bit is an overreaction, but

She sounds like a real ass if the story is true.

[madfloridian]

42. The story is totally true. She is annoying. That has nothing to do with it.

You missed the whole point you know.

[Pithlet]

43. Just making a comment is all

Don't know how you think you know what point I got, but okay.

[madfloridian]

44. The point is there are many "asses" walking around out of jail.

While she spent almost a week there for idiotic charges.

[Pithlet]

45. Hence the "overreaction" part of my comment n/t

[Mariana]

47. How the hell did the kid know those were "sex noises"

in the first place?

If he really is afraid to go outside, it's because of his father and the cops, not because of anything this woman did. His father obviously told the kid the woman is dangerous, and then the idiotic raid and arrest reinforced that. THEY are the ones who've terrorized the kid - if he IS terrorized. It's just as likely that the father is full of shit and the kid thinks she's funny as hell.

[Citizen Worker]

48. Welcome to the land of the free and home of the brave.

[Taitertots]

59. Making lewd sexual exclamations at a child should be criminal

This atheist thinks this has little to do with religion and a lot to do with inappropriate sexual actions directed at a child.

[McCamy Taylor]

95. When you cal her "the atheist" you make this about religion and not about protecting children.

I think the kid needs to be protected from his dad who is making him a laughing stock in his community. Imagine how much he will be teased at school and by his friends.

[a2liberal]

114. Umm please read parent comment again

I don't know where I stand on the issue, but I'm pretty sure parent poster was referring to him/herself with "this atheist"

[Cherchez la Femme]

133. Really?

Even when this woman is part of a group suing FL law enforcement for giving public property away to churches. That she has already been legally harassed by the same set of people who just want to 'protect the public' by charging her with something that can give up to a 15 year sentence?

Even that the 'we're better than she is' father (how it sounds to me) innocently came back with his kid to shoot hoops after she had already asked for the boy to stop, and he complied?

Who's started the aggression here? Not she.

Does the fact that she was inside her own house matter?


And "inappropriate sexual actions directed at a child" WTF? Are you serious?!

This is beyond insane.

[madfloridian]

60. "banned from making contact with her neighbors or minors."

This is just plain persecution. This newspaper from a conservative area tells it like it is.

Drop prosecution of Polk County atheist leader

Let’s see if we have this straight. EllenBeth Wachs, a noted Polk County atheist who belongs to Atheists of Florida, was arrested in early March, charged with practicing law without a license, simply based upon the say-so of three individuals with whom she has clashed: Gow Fields, the mayor of Lakeland; Ann Gibson, legal affairs coordinator for the Polk County Sheriff’s Office; and Stacy Butterfield, a board member of the homeowners association in the subdivision where Wachs resides. Butterfield also happens to be the director of finance and accounting for the Board of County Commissioners.

Along with Wachs’ arrest a search warrant was issued. Her computer and other personal effects were confiscated. On her computer was the information and other documentation that was to be used during the deposition. Without that data, the deposition had to be rescheduled.

Wachs’ and AoF’s actions against Lakeland and Polk County School Board are generally known. But a private dispute between Wachs and the homeowners’ association in her subdivision, of which Butterfield is an officer? How did that appear on the state attorney’s radar screen, and why?

Her organization advocates an unpopular belief and does so vociferously. That she chooses to exercise her right to freedom of speech and does so in a manner in which she was educated, trained and once licensed to practice (in Pennsylvania), is her right. As is her right to use the term “Esq.” or “esquire,” since no Florida law forbids its use by anyone not licensed to practice law in the state. Hanging a criminal prosecution on the use of this word and the impressions of others is, well, to put it bluntly, a little flimsy."

It saddens me to see the excuses being made for putting this woman in jail for 6 days, tearing up her house and sending a swat team.

Even if she is obnoxious, there is no excuse.

[Edweird]

64. Hizonor believes 'sex noises' to be unusual? No wonder he's a dick.

[madfloridian]

77. Thorough and excellent op ed by a Ledger reporter about the Esq. ...

and why they should back off about it. He even uses the word persecute.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110424/COLUMNISTS0308/104245006?p=all&tc=pgall

Those who think she deserved that jail time need to read this. Take the time, please. These are her rights that are being taken away.

"HEAVY-HANDEDNESS

It certainly is no reason for arrest. Nor would it excuse the sort of arrest procedures described by www.atheistsofflorida.org. The website says that, on March 3, more than "a dozen sheriff's deputies and other law-enforcement officials, many garbed in SWAT-style paramilitary gear, descended on her home in unmarked vehicles, arrested Ms. Wachs and searched her home. Two bearded officials in SWAT gear held her two retail employees at gunpoint, and for several hours unidentified agents proceeded to systematically tear apart her house, including searching her cars and employees' cars, and belongings. Agents seized Wachs' personal and business computers, cell phone, documents and other items."

Lawyers who expound upon cases of public interest find Wachs' arrest troubling.

Locally, lawyer Kemp Brinson of Winter Haven wrote on www.polklawblog.com that he sees two reasons for Wachs using Esq. in her signature: "The first one is, you want those people to think that you are a licensed lawyer. The second one is, you want people to know that you have some legal knowledge and therefore aren't to be trifled with."

He quotes Jonathan Turley:

"Nationally, legal scholar Jonathan Turley wrote on www.jonathanturley.org that "I find it highly disturbing to see the simple use of esquire as the grounds for an action. I do not view the term as denoting a practicing lawyer in and of itself."

He added: "The context here could not be more disturbing, given Wachs' involvement in an unpopular exercise of free speech. To combine that context with such a weak basis for a charge of unauthorized practice raises flags of retaliatory action."

[mike_c]

82. there's no nutter like a religious nutter....

eom

[saras]

86. Unusual in the real world or unusual in this pack of idiots?

[madfloridian]

87. Good question.

:hi:

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

91. Video...she says Sheriff Grady Judd arrives just as she is being booked.

Quite a coincidence. He has a county commissioner with him. Interesting video from Tampa's Channel 10 News.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/190781/250/Judge-warns-atheist-activist-not-to-make-sex-noises

From what I have read, she is a legal consultant for the group...but they are represented by another attorney from Tampa.

And Grady Judd just happened to be at the county jail as she was being booked. Yeh, right.

[DesertDiamond]

92. Afraid of the sounds of sex? Scarred by the sounds of sex?

And whoever said above it right, a 10-year-old who knows those are the sounds of sex can't blame it on this woman. I think it's clear as day that they are persecuting her for being an atheist.

[McCamy Taylor]

93. Messing with the wrong woman here. She'll (gleefully) go all the way to the SCOTUS

with this (assuming it is not shot done in appeals court) and her accusers are going to look like puritan idiots on a witch hunts.

[earcandle]

96. This is so absurd.. have they ever heard of free speech? Stupid shit.

[earcandle]

97. Pretty fascist point of view. I would suggest this is abusive to this woman's life and sue the

judge for not taking his job seriously, but using it to hurt
citizens with his belief system.  This office of judge is a
rule of law position, not a tv show on morality.  stupid shit.

[jp11]

101. It didn't state what noises were dictated to be 'unusual' this seems to be groundbreaking

case law, people need to know what noises are 'usual' for one's home and not. As well people must all abstain from saying 'Oh John' as a child may be near, and anyone doing anything that might be considered a 'sex act' must also refrain from such activity as some nosy child might be lurking around or just be in earshot.

[jberryhill]

103. Lights off, at night, with the doors locked, and NO noises

She gets the wet spot and no eye contact the morning after.

That's how you do sex in Florida.

Any questions?

And NONE of this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuactAjlacM

[madfloridian]

108. lol Oh Johnny Oh Johnny Oh...the Andrews sisters. :)

I remember hearing the Andrews sisters. Love it!

[bertman]

106. A kick for exposing the insanity of these so-called law enforcers and the judge. nt

[seabeyond]

113. if it were a little 10 yr old girl outside the window and a grown up, mature man projecting sexual

noises for the little girls benefit, we would be offended and call him a perverted pig.

that is all i am saying.

i am not saying she should go to jail, something wrong with sex, something abnormal with sex noises, the kid is forever damage or anything else someone may want to project

[jp11]

117. You are sadly probably right, IMO she is an idiot for doing that when supposedly

the sound of basketball play was irritating but faking sex sounds wasn't painful/stressful/etc. However I don't really see how she or anyone could be expected to know or foresee such a stupid act would 'damage' this kid if in fact he is really damaged. He seems fragile and just about anything could have damaged him if noises one can hear in daily TV commercials, many hollywood films, video games, etc can do that to him.

I could see ordering her to pay for therapy for the child and ordering her to have no contact with the child or family unless through an attorney or postal mail etc.

[seabeyond]

118. it was stupid and immature.

the rest, i dont care about.

[madfloridian]

123. You don't care she was jailed? You don't care a judge told her how to act in her home?

You don't care that a swat team and multiple squad cars were once sent to arrest her and that her home was torn apart?

I find that stunning that you don't care.

[seabeyond]

131. it is not a matter of caring, it is a matter of i am not arguing those issues.

these threads never go well for me adn i often dont participate because someone does something stupid, yet goes to this. we beat the "this" to death ignoring the stupid.

i argued the part of this issue i wanted to.

[justiceischeap]

119. Has anyone confirmed she was making sexual noises?

From the handful of articles I've read, she has MS and is going through chemotherapy. Are we sure the sex noise weren't moaning associated with pain or vomiting?

Folks on DU amaze me when they jump to defend people perceived as being wronged when there is a woman who seems to actually be being wronged. Once more, reading the handful of articles I have on this story, this woman is an outspoken Atheist whose neighbors are "friendly" with the Sheriff and other very conservative Christians in this town. To me, this smacks of malfeasance and I'd rather hear the facts of the case instead of accusations by a biased neighbor.

[seabeyond]

120. we are going off the article. if it is wrong, all the "discussion" is null and void

i guess we should all make a declaration prior to comment on all the posts we make.

and again.... the point, if it was an old man doing it to a 10 yr old girl, we would be bothered.

that is my ONLY point

[madfloridian]

121. The lady was in jail 6 days. She was refused medication. More links...story is true.

You are questioning if the story is true?

Florida woman jailed for making sex noises.

And another link:

FL's Lakeland Ledger speaks out for the atheist who was arrested for sex noises in her home.

I am more and more amazed at how this forum demands that any outrage be accepted, and that we not question.

[seabeyond]

132. no mad... i am not questioning. i was addressing a person that questioned it. hence my answer.

when you create the outrage, and create something from someones words that just are not there.... i can understand how you are so amazed.

[Cherchez la Femme]

134. "projecting sexual noises for the little girls benefit"

that was not the intent here and you damn well know it. You need to plait your straw men thicker -- they'll at least take a bit longer to burn.

[seabeyond]

135. i think it was exactly the intent. how i read it. if we interpret it differently

and i dont know how that could be, then so be it

she was making sexual noises for whatever reason?? to get the boy to go in the house.

if it had beena grown man do it to a little girl, we would have been bothered.

why you are bothered with me pointing that out is not obvious to me

[Cherchez la Femme]

146. The boy left off playing basketball when

she first asked. As I read in those articles.

The father then took the boy BACK to make some kind of point
--'we're better than you (you damn anarchistic atheist)' or 'our rights to shoot hoops at 8:30 in the morning far outweigh a sick woman's rights to sleep (within her own house no less)' ...something like that, perhaps?--
it was aggression, pure & simple,
to which she responded with "sex noises". Pardon me while I :scoff:

It's pretty clear to me her response was directed at the father. The father is the one who escalated this, and brought his own son into it

And it worked, too!

Would you rather have neighbors yell & scream at each other? Would that, in the long run, be better for either the boy OR the community?


If I were her I'd go mow my lawn right next to his windows at oh, say 5-6 in the morning

but I'll bet there are community laws/rules about doing that! Now THAT's bad -- but refusing to stop shooting hoops early in the morning next to a neighboring ill woman's window who is trying to sleep? A-OK! USA! USA!!

[seabeyond]

147. i think you reiterated what i said. i said no more or less. if a grown man did that to a girl

we would be bothered.

it was stupid and immature

two adults that chose not to behave like adults

[Cherchez la Femme]

148. Sure it was immature

I'm not praising what she did

but my entire point was it was not directed at the child!

If the genders were switched around in this story, with the exact same circumstances, I'd still feel the same way I do about this tragi-comedy.
Yeesh.

[WatsonT]

157. True. A definite double standard.

Similiar to the one used in teacher/student sex cases.

If it's an older woman younger male: aww he probably liked it.

Older male younger female: MONSTER! String him up for what he did to this poor child!

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

125. Another Bush appointee.

Jeb Bush this time... enough said.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. "Oh Jesus... Oh God... Oh Jesus... Ohh God God Jesus Jesus God GOD GOD OHHHHHHHHH..."

....what? I was just prayin'!

[Deep13]

139. Put a robe on an idiot and hand him a gavel and what have you got?

An idiot with a robe and a gavel.

[Cherchez la Femme]

141. I hope she's not a fan of Oldies

She'll get more visits from the Swat team if she starts singing these in or outside of her home:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo-qweh7nbQ (Blue Suede)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb_Uu0eTNWk (Cream)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNiYECUd2ZU (The Crystals)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJhcGepfG04 (The Beatles)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2JFJ6B9xoY (Otis Day & the Knights)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2whGEvy13Ag (Roy Orbison)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFq5O2kabQo (Little Richard)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=654CwfbIXxI (David Seville and the Chipmunks) EDIT HERE: Oops! The correct link for the original.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXCh9OhDiCI (the blasphemous Ministry)


And, obviously, Mungo Jerry's song In The Summertime is right out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc9wIzi96_E




Afterthoughts:

The Steve Miller Band's (Steve Miller, aka Maurice) "the pompatus of love" I'll just bet is dirty!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYwKGDe7AnQ

Heck, even Sinatra's 'Dooby dooby doo' can be suggestive!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtXiormP9Cc

[madfloridian]

145. Love the videos and music. Thanks.

:hi:

[SemperEadem]

154. it's going to be hilarious watching this get thrown out

for the judge trampling the woman's first amendment rights.

if the 10 yr old is that traumatized, then he does need to stay in the house and never go out because the judge can't lock up everyone who makes noises that he doesn't like.

perhaps the dad is pissed because his wife won't make noises like that for him.

[blackspade]

159. Next time she should just put on Slayer's "Reign in Blood"

And crank it to 11!!

:headbang:


This is a complete travesty of justice.
She is definately the wrong one locked up in this case.

[Cherchez la Femme]

162. I'll have to listen to that

I was thinking Slipknot, myself :)

[blackspade]

164. That works for me too.

She could try playing Venom's "at War With Satan". That might get a rise out of these douchebags as well.

[Quixote1818]

160. What a nutcase. nt