If you can't get the vote right in Waukesha County .........

[socialist_n_TN]

for this state Supreme Court election, why should ANYONE think that it will be done right for any other statewide election? Say the Scott Walker recall election when it comes about? Or for that matter, any national election?

A little background for those distracted by Osama. During the recount in WI. there have been NUMEROUS chain of custody issues involving ballot bags in Waukesha County. This county is the heavily Republican area that contributed the 14k "uncounted" votes that put Prosser comfortably ahead in the SC election. Although it's all being documented, it doesn't seem that anybody is getting too pissed off about it. This is democracy? AND it seems that these chain of custody issues are almost EXCLLUSIVELY in that county. NUMEROUS issues in that county and only a handful elsewhere.

So back to my original question. Why should ANYBODY believe that that county will hold fair elections AT ANY POINT FROM NOW ON?

Finally although I'm in TN and not WI, it STILL will effect me, sooner or later. Because we all know that the Republicans will do what works to win elections. If it works in WI, it'll be coming to a state near you soon.

Wasn't that original tea party in Boston about representation? If electoral politics don't lead to representation, then the people will eventually turn to EXTRA electoral politics.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. I haven't trusted our national elections since 2000.

[PeaceNikki]

2. What would be "pissed off enough" for you? Should we tackle the Board when they rule to count these

bags? We're busting our asses watching and objecting and entering into evidence. We're not freaking out enough for you? Well, YOU come here and stand there for hours and hours every day, we need people.

[Scuba]

4. Thanks PeaceNikki for watching over our democracy. n/t

[gkhouston]

7. +1000. Documenting the situation is a vital step toward resolving problems.

Given how many issues Waukesha has in comparison to the other counties, all these "problems" sure look purposeful, but no matter what is ultimately decided, this mess should lead to better safeguards for future elections.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. We've been documenting shit for years now............

and it still hasn't made any differences. The fascists STILL commit election fraud and they STILL get away with it. Everybody tsk-tsks about it and goes on blithely as before and elections get LESS fair and the the safeguards get WORSE with every election.

I'm pretty tired of it. I've voted in EVERY election (mid terms included) since I've been eligible and philosophically I've always wondered if it made any difference. The fascists are now SHOWING me that it doesn't make any difference WITHOUT A DOUBT.

[gkhouston]

21. How many times have we actually gone to court? Hell, how many

times have we even gotten a recount that was even partially done by hand? We've seen anomalous results but recounts are rare. Instead of wondering when Kloppenberg is going to step up, I'd be watching for the Prosser campaign to make a move here, soon, to try to shut down or discredit this recount.

[socialist_n_TN]

25. Who's talking about Kloppenberg?

She's a judge and that means she's probably a lawyer. Which means she's got a vested interest in the system. The system that's failing more and more obviously every election. And that's NOT just Wisconsin.

I'm wondering why, in a state that was a model for us all just a couple of months ago, there's no POPULAR outrage about this OBVIOUS electoral fraud. When union rights were threatened hundreds of thousands of people showed up in the streets and a general strike was threatened. Yet, VOTING rights are threatened and there's no popular outcry. Voting rights are SUPPOSED to be the cornerstone of a democracy. They should be AT LEAST on par with the right to organize into unions. Where is the outrage?

[Jackpine Radical]

28. Well, that's not all exactly correct.

Kloppenburg is not a judge; she is a lead prosecutor in the State AG's office. Those people are as much under the Walker axe as any other state employee.Walker & Prosser have made what I consider a fairly significant mistake. One of the precepts I have always tried to follow in my life is "Never piss off a top prosecutor just at a time when she otherwise has a lot of spare time on her hands."

[socialist_n_TN]

30. OK,. That means she's a lawyer..........

(which I mentioned). And that means she's got a vested interest in the system. The system that's failing.

Even as a prosecutor, she (or her office) can bring any charges they want. They can even get convictions. I'm assuming in WI the final arbitrator of all that's legal is the Wisconsin Supreme Court. Ergo, the conviction is appealed to the WI. SC and overturned. What then? Let them steal any election they want?

When the SYSTEM is failing, at some point the people have to step up.

[jsamuel]

6. Thanks PeaceNikki

but I don't think they are referring to you, the volunteers, or the Kloppenburg campaign. I think they are referring to the media and populace in general.

[socialist_n_TN]

8. Yeah, I think I'd be pretty loud when they rule

to count bags of ballots that have been tampered with. I'm sure I'll have the chance to do so because, as I said, it's coming to a state near ALL of us soon. And I plan to make as much of a stink as possible when this kind of shit happens in Nashville. I'll probably get arrested, but if ACTUAL electoral fraud isn't worth getting arrested for, what is? Ergo, you wouldn't WANT me there because I'm a loud mouth socialist who wouldn't mind screaming about election fraud AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS! Yes, it PISSES ME OFF!

Look I don't want to bust your chops about this personally, but if there were massive demonstrations about union issues during a Wisconsin winter, INCLUDING threats of a general strike, WHY is this going down so quietly? I would think that the recount areas would be SURROUNDED by protestors just to let the Walkerites KNOW that the PEOPLE are pissed off about it. Even if the protestors weren't FROM Waukesha County, they would STILL be Wisconsinites and so, would STILL be affected.

But since you're there, I'll ask you directly and sincerely. How are you going to trust ANY election in Waukesha County from now on? It's pretty obvious that they'll use ANY means of election fraud to get the outcome that they desire. So why bother even to vote if your vote doesn't count? It appears, at least in that particular area of Wisconsin, that electoral illegalities don't matter. THEY'RE NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR ELECTORAL CRIMES. Not in the Legislature and not in the courts. So they need to be held accountable in the streets.

As I said I don't want to personally bust your chops about this, but seeing new evidence of fraud each and every day and 90+% of it coming from ONE county which just HAPPENED to find enough "uncounted" ballots to elect the fascist, really pisses me off. I get passionate about it.

[PeaceNikki]

9. In all sincerity, please come and join us. We NEED help.

[socialist_n_TN]

16. You know I really wish I could. Wisconsin jails might

be nicer than Tennessee jails. Unfortunately, I'm unemployed, my UIC is running out, my wife is ending cancer treatment and there's a BUTTLOAD of shit going down politically here in Tennessee.

What I'm looking for (and what I'll BE looking for here in Tennessee WHEN it happens here) is street actions. Because I don't trust fascist controlled legislatures, courts, and election officials.

[gkhouston]

12. The questionable bags are being noted as questionable and tallied

separately. Which is more useful--to find out what's in those suspicious-looking bags and find out how many of them have been compromised, or to make a lot of noise and get hauled away without learning anything? How is Kloppenberg's campaign supposed to make a credible court case objecting to this without truly knowing what "this" is yet? It would be a lot more compelling to go to court and say that 40% (made up guess) of the bags have custody issues than to say you've found 14 so far and there are probably more.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. I guess my question is why not BOTH options?

The lawyers need to document everything for court, but the people don't. The MSM WILL take note of civil disobedience. And the civilly disobedient WILL have sympathy.

[gkhouston]

19. If you want to do it, hop in a car and give it a try.

Considering how much attention the crowds in Madison didn't get from the MSM, I don't predict a lot of media attention, but I suppose you can give it a shot.

[socialist_n_TN]

20. How many people in Madison were arrested?

How loud, rowdy and impolite were they? I understood what they were going for there, but this is a totally different animal. This is an attempted fascistlike takeover of our country using electoral fraud.

If Wisconsin won't get pissed off about it, me being there won't do much good IMO. Anyway, I've got plenty of fascists to fight here in Tennessee.

But I guess since I don't live there, I shouldn't complain huh?

[gkhouston]

23. Being arrested wasn't their objective, nor, apparently, did they

feel it would help them meet their objective. Don't confuse a different approach with a lack of commitment.

[socialist_n_TN]

26. I'm not. I said in my post that I understood what........

they were going for during the mass demonstrations. But voting rights should, IMO, be AT LEAST as important as the right to organize and probably more so. At least under the rules of a bourgeousie "democracy".

As to getting arrested, there's a self defense maxim that's appropriate to this. It's called graduated response. There's one sentence that I use to boil it down. You don't break some drunk's neck for calling your girlfriend a whore. That's overreacting. However, if said drunk takes a poke at you, you can use enough physical force to negate the threat. If he pulls a weapon, you can use deadly force.

Scott Walker and the legislature enacting union busting laws were the drunk calling your girlfriend a whore. Or at worst, taking a poke at you. It called for a certain, relatively restrained response. Engaging in electoral fraud is the drunk pulling a knife or a gun. THAT calls for an ESCALATED response by the people of Wisconsin. Or Tennessee for that matter. We HAVE had people arrested here for civil disobedience over the same union busting agenda that's been happening in Wisconsin. And they got press, statewide.

I've heard a lot since all this started back in February about court challenges and recall elections. And all that's well and good and should be explored. But if Legislative remedies are impossible and the courts are crooked or stacked with fascist rubber stamps and the elections are rigged, what's left then? Maybe I'm wrong, but from where I sit ALL of those things are looking like they might be true. If you can't trust the election's process, and you can't trust the courts to rule legally, what's the next step?

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Well, we ARE pissed off.

It's just kind of hard to tell when a Norwegian is pissed off until right before he or she calmly dismembers you and stomps you into the ground.

[socialist_n_TN]

31. LOL.........

And yes, I DID laugh out loud at that.

You guys need to get on with the dismembering then, Jack. Because they're for sure as Hell taking away your voting rights by way of electoral fraud.

Since you're a Wisconsinite, let me ask you the question. How about it? Are you going to trust the votes in Waukesha County in ANY future election?

I personally wouldn't be surprised to see a 100% turnout in that county IF you get the recall against Walker going. And ALL 100% of those votes will go for Scott Walker.

[Jackpine Radical]

33. I think some prior Waukesha elections are questionable.

Including Walker's win in 2010, for starters, but who knows what else might turn up when people dig a little?

And it is distinctly my impression that people will be digging. These people are real professionals. Klop, herself a prosecutor, has brought in a whole lot of high-profile lawyers. I think that at this point they are collecting the evidence. No need to get loud & excited until things have been analyzed. Right now, just about nobody thinks the election was fair. The explosions will happen when and if they find convincing stuff to take to court.

[socialist_n_TN]

34. OK, I see that. What happens if the Wisconsin SC

overturns any convictions? Also, by "explosions" are you talking about a resumption of the street protests focusing on the voting irregularities this time instead of (or in addition to) the union busting?

I've gotten the impression that Waukesha County is ONE of the larger ones in Wisconsin. That would mean it would be a big chunk of any future statewide election. If you allow this fraud to continue, how could you trust ANY future election, especially in that county.

All I can say is that if this were happening in Tennessee, I wouldn't be happy at ALL and I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs about it.

Thanks for the answer BTW.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. ou're raising a lot of imponderables here.

Waukesha Co. is a densely populated county that borders on Milwaukee Co. & includes a lot of high-end suburbs. Milw. is solidly, reliably Democratic & Wauk. the opposite.

At this point, until there is clear evidence to the contrary, we will be trusting the court system. The grounds for the various lawsuits are being prepared now, based upon the findings of electoral "irregularities." People are paying close attention. They will do what they feel they need to do based on what they see happening.

I think I need to make the point that WI Democrats aren't necessarily like those in the rest of the country. There is a very strong liberal tradition--indeed, a socialist tradition in Milwaukee, Superior & some other spots--and we are very conscious of our Progressive heritage. I think that these traditions had a lot to do with why Wisconsin's demonstrations were an order of magnitude greater than elsewhere in the country.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. Well, I know that and you know that, but....

it seems that there are a lot of people still putting their faith in "fair" elections. And that OBVIOUSLY ain't happening in this county in Wisconsin.

The fascists aren't even being SUBTLE about the electoral fraud anymore, so I want people to THINK about why elections should be trusted. IF they can't find a good reason, then maybe extra electoral remedies need to be explored.

[robinlynne]

5. It has been affecting you and all of us since 2000!

[librechik]

11. this is happening everywhere. For a decade. Have no idea why it's not a huge issue

except that the comfortable media don't give a shit about America, just their paycheck from the corporation which owns them.

[socialist_n_TN]

18. I think that a lot of people just refused to believe

the evidence. At first. But as it gets more and more prevalent, it's going to be harder and harder to ignore. Hell, even the Democratic Party doesn't want to get into it and they're the ones who ALWAYS are the losers when the fascists steal an election.

The more this happens and the longer this goes on, the more the people will look for EXTRA electoral remedies. Or else sink into apathy and allow the TOTAL fascist takeover to happen without a whimper.

[librechik]

22. In know--my 80 year old MIL is absolutely resistant to any news about our decrepit elections

she just doesn't believe it could happen here, and that we are nuts to even suggest it.

[fascisthunter]

14. non-verifiable elections... and it seems some want to keep it this way

[socialist_n_TN]

17. Yeah. And we know who............

The ones who have benefitted EVERY TIME THERE'S EVIDENCE OF FRAUD. The fascists.

[Fly by night]

24. Since you're in Tennessee, you must know we already don't count votes as they were cast here.

Even though we passed a law three years ago outlawing DREs and mandating paper ballots and mandatory manual recounts, the Republicans have refused to implement the law and are about to repeal it outright.

In a state that has 8% more self-identified Democrats than Republicans, our elections have been turning out lately like just the opposite. Tennessee Republicans know where their true "mandate' lies, and that is in the unverifiable black boxes.

[socialist_n_TN]

27. Yep and I've called everybody I know.......

and everybody that represents me about this.

And I wasn't kidding in my posts. I don't mind getting arrested and I will be LOUD and ROWDY when there comes a specific instance to fight for RE: Tennessee election fraud. If what happened in Waukesha County, Wisconsin had happened in Davidson County, Tennessee, I WOULD be there calling bullshit at the top of my lungs.

[Fly by night]

36. It DID happen in Davidson (re: Henry primary) & in Shelby, Rutherford, Hickman, etc, etc, ad nauseum

It has been happening here for a decade. Hell, the Secretary of State's web-site STILL shows more votes cast for President in Davidson County in 2004 than there were voters in that election.

WE'VE been making noise on this issue here in Tennessee since 2004, to no avail.

Where you been?

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Shameless bump

Anybody else think this is important?