White House: "bin Laden was not armed when he was killed"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

It's a link to MSNBC's live feed of the press conference, no text story: Watch live: White House spokesman Jay Carney says bin Laden was not armed when he was killed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

My reaction is that neither were the occupants of the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, or any of the people on this 9/11 jets, so fuck his dead unarmed ass.

[AlabamaLibrul]

1. Are you okay with the WH "changing its story" dramatically 2 days after seeing "helmet cams"? nt

[Amerigo Vespucci]

2. To be honest, I haven't paid attention to the White House's story...

...I don't know what's been said, so I don't know about the contradictions.

[AlabamaLibrul]

4. Well the story we heard on Sunday night was that he was killed in a firefight

which would assume the two parties were armed. Now, we're hearing otherwise.

I think it's a very bad move and I can't believe we're hearing about this some 48 hours after the alleged video evidence seen in the Situation Room was reported on by the WH itself.

[Teaser]

6. *yawn*

who knows who was firing at whom?

that's not how combat works.

[coalition_unwilling]

112. It's not how extra-judicial executions work either - n/t

[uppityperson]

11. I've never hear "the WH" talk or give a report. The White House is a building.

[rfranklin]

14. You must be foreign...

you don't understand American lingo.

[uppityperson]

16. Do you mean the president? Or an official spokesperson? Or a WH staff person? Or who?

So many different possibilities using "wh said". No, I am not foreign, thanks for the insult rather than the clarification though. I just don't like to assume "the wh said" means it was an official release since often it is just a wh staffer gossiping.

[AlabamaLibrul]

18. It was the President. How's that?

"Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. <...> After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body."

[uppityperson]

24. As below, I see what President Obama says, and NYTimes interpretation.

"After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body." is different from NYTimes assertion "killed in a firefight". I do not see President Obama changing his story, just NYT and he using different words which could or may not mean the same thing.

Thank you for clarifying you meant President Obama.

[guruoo]

39. Doesn't say OBL was armed, just that he was captured "After a firefight" nt

[Luminous Animal]

85. Unfortunately, Brennan, 1st out of the gate with a press conference, stated that Osama was engaged..

in a firefight. And yes, there was no specific claim that he was armed but sheesh, how can one be engaged in a firefight if one is not armed? Was Brennan being purposely oblique?

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/
"Q You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight, and we had — it has been reported that he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hand on a gun and did he fire himself?

MR. BRENNAN: He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in. And whether or not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don’t know."

[guruoo]

131. New to me. Must have been going by the helmet cam video feed.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlabamaLibrul]

36. Well, it's also a group of people who occupy it as part of the executive branch

and as a group, and under that name of the "White House", a building, they give reports and talks.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-and-releases

[coalition_unwilling]

113. Actually a well-established rhetorical trope (figure of speech) called

'synecdoche,' where a collective entity takes the place of an individual. In this case, "White House" is a synecdoche for a White House spokesperson or for Obama. Another example would be in Shakespeare, where the British monarch would refer to himself as 'England' or the King of France as 'France'

Now back to regular programming :)

[bighart]

19. Go back and listen again

The story we heard Sunday night was that he was killed AFTER a firefight.

[AlabamaLibrul]

27. We're getting into semantics -- not that the statements/reporting helped

What the WH needs to do is come out with a very clear statement, that puts the events into order again, from beginning to end and addresses details such as:

1) Did the firefight involve UBL at all? Was he even around in the middle of it?
2) Was he armed *before* he died? If yes, what happened there?
3) How long after the firefight was he killed and how did it happen? On knees, back of the head? A single sniper bullet from afar?
4) Why are we even having to question the official story now, and get into parsing words? If the first story was everything that had happened, it'd be done and we'd be over it. It's really concerning to me that it only took 2 days for details to start changing.

[bighart]

29. I understand it could be a poor choice of words.

But when those words are directly from the mouth of the President I think it is important to note. His phrasing was that bin Laden was killed "after a firefight".

[AlabamaLibrul]

30. Jury's still out for me

But it doesn't feel good in the stomach.

[Luminous Animal]

87. Unfortunately, Brennan controlled the original narrative and claimed that Osama

was killed in the firefight. Not after...

"the concern was that bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight and that’s when the remains were removed."
http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/


That is where the reporters got their information.

[Mojorabbit]

43. Same with using a woman as a human shield

That was retracted also.

[Luminous Animal]

86. Nope. The story says that Osama was engaged in a firefight and killed in that firefight...

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/

"the concern was that bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight and that’s when the remains were removed.

...

"Q You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight, and we had — it has been reported that he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hand on a gun and did he fire himself?

MR. BRENNAN: He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in. And whether or not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don’t know."

[Distant Observer]

42. There is ALLWAYS the pre-packaged OFFICIAL STORY to justifiy ACTION cooked in the basement

In this case, it was probably unnecessary and likely problematic, since video recordings might be leaked sooner rather than later.

[JuniperLea]

69. I watched the entire thing and I never heard the word "firefight"

And I never heard that OBL was armed. Got a link?

Did you hear it from a NAMED White House source? Or did you hear it from the media?

The initial reports I heard were that the details are still sketchy and are being reviewed... I never thought I'd hear what went down until today or tomorrow.

[bighart]

77. The Prsident himself used the word "firefight" in his adress on Sunday night.

[Luminous Animal]

89. John Brennan claimed that Osama was engaged in a firefight and killed in that firefight...

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/

"The concern was that bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight and that’s when the remains were removed."


...


"Q You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight, and we had — it has been reported that he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hand on a gun and did he fire himself?

MR. BRENNAN: He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in. And whether or not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don’t know."

[krispos42]

80. "firefight" is a general term, not a specific one

If the SEAL and OBL "exchanged gunfire", that would be specific.

[Luminous Animal]

91. "He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in."

John Brennan at the May 2nd White House press conference.

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/

[krispos42]

108. Ah. That's a bit more specific, isn't it?

:-)

[Luminous Animal]

109. And, unfortunately, not true.

[MercuryRepeater]

95. did you hear it from the White House, or from the Newsmedia????

[underpants]

102. It was a firefight. A one-sided firefitght but a firefight none the less

[Teaser]

5. cool with it.

combat's confusing. hard to tell who's firing even when you're there in person.

[AlabamaLibrul]

9. You'd have to be pretty confused to mentally place a gun in hands where it does not lay

especially after they got the body and everything else.

[Teaser]

13. dude, when you're in a firefight

you don't know where the bullets are coming from, usually.

SEALs knew someone was shooting at them. Maybe even know who. But watching from a helmet cam? No. Viewpoint changes rapidly and shifts more rapidly than your visual cortex can process the information.

[uppityperson]

7. There are many people in the WH, many talking who are speaking wrongly

I'm waiting for confirmed news, not just "a WH source". I have no problem with "a WH source"s story being shown to be wrong.

[AlabamaLibrul]

17. How's this from the 1st?

WASHINGTON — Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the most devastating attack on American soil in modern times and the most hunted man in the world, was killed in a firefight with United States forces in Pakistan, President Obama announced on Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/world/asia/osama-bin-laden-is-killed.html

I mean, I heard the speech. I can pull the video up. "Today, at my direction, the United States launched a targeted operation against that compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. <...> After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body."

[uppityperson]

21. "After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body" is what I heard

I didn't hear he was armed. I didn't hear he fought back. I didn't hear much from President Obama except rumors of what happened during the firefight.

The phrasing of "After a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body" struck me at the time and I'd like to know more. It is very different than "killed in a firefight" which is not what i heard President Obama say, irregardless of what NYT says.

[Luminous Animal]

96. The NY Times got their version from John Brennan's press conference.

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/

"The concern was that bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight and that’s when the remains were removed."

[LiberalAndProud]

28. So you don't believe there was a firefight either?

You're reading what you want to read and understanding what you want to understand. Nowhere does it say that OBL had a gun or fired a gun. I supsect is body guards did. So if there hadn't been a firefight, I would be suspicious.

[guruoo]

33. Does not specify the identity of the enemy shooters

[Baby Bear]

12. If the initial reports were wrong, I am okay with that.

In my experience, the initial reports are almost always wrong and the later versions are more accurate, especially if they are embarrassing.

[guruoo]

15. WH said OBL resisted, but TMK, never anything about his being armed nt

[KittyWampus]

54. Did the original story come from the White House? No, it didn't.

[Luminous Animal]

98. Yes it did. From John Brennan's press conference.

"The concern was that bin Laden would oppose any type of capture operation. Indeed, he did. It was a firefight. He, therefore, was killed in that firefight and that’s when the remains were removed."

...

"Q You said that Osama bin Laden was actually involved in the firefight, and we had — it has been reported that he reached for a weapon. Did he get his hand on a gun and did he fire himself?

MR. BRENNAN: He was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in. And whether or not he got off any rounds, I quite frankly don’t know."

http://www.shallownation.com/2011/05/02/white-house-press-conference-video-transcript-may-2-2011-osama-bin-laden-death/

[leveymg]

3. So where did the initial "detailed reports" that he was firing an AK-47 come from? The usual Anon?

It's beginning to look more and more like an extrajudicial execution - however you may feel about that.

[leftstreet]

20. +1

"It's beginning to look more and more like an extrajudicial execution"

No kidding

Sometimes I wonder if Hollywood screenwriters are on staff

[LiberalAndProud]

31. link?

Just want to know if sources were named and who reported. Thanks.

[leveymg]

71. It was Brennan who made that statement:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/03/osama-bin-laden-us-changes-story

The US has backed away from its initial account of the killing of Osama bin Laden, which claimed that the al-Qaida leader was carrying a weapon and fired at US troops before he was shot dead.

On Monday, John Brennan, a counterterrorism adviser to Barack Obama, said Bin Laden was "engaged in a firefight" with his assailants and he did not know if he "got off any rounds". Other US officials briefed that he was firing at members of the US navy's elite Seal Team Six.

However, subsequent briefings by US officials suggest that, when confronted at the high-security complex in Abbottabad, Bin Laden did not have a weapon and did not fire at his assailants. With some questions being raised as to why Bin Laden was shot dead, and whether he was executed, rather than taken into custody, Brennan said: "If we had the opportunity to take Bin Laden alive, if he didn't present any threat, the individuals involved were able and prepared to do that."

[Luminous Animal]

101. What? Where did you see those "detailed reports"?

[lpbk2713]

8. Reminds me of William Munny

Well he should have armed himself if he wanted to kill three thousand people in one day.

[guitar man]

22. ++++

exactly! :hi:

[Shrek]

41. +1

You are 100% correct.

[DefenseLawyer]

44. Funny, that immediately came to my mind.

I watch too many movies.

[backscatter712]

10. That's OK. I'm still glad he's dead.

Go ahead and call it an assassination. It needed to be done.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. The defenders of Osama bin Laden are out in force

:rofl:

This is a truly astounding development.

Poor Osama bin Laden, getting all mixed up in a group of people firing on Navy SEALs, and then getting himself shot in the fucking head in the process. Who will defend poor Osama bin Laden? Who mourns for poor Osama, and the injustice that has befallen him?

It's like totally cuckoo bananas in here lately. What the fuck?

[reggie the dog]

46. we are not mourning bin laden

many of us simply would have loved to have listened to his testimony at a war crimes trial.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

60. what fantasyland?

do you actually believe the 911 commission report?

do you think that bin laden would not have talked at all?

what fantasy are you refering to?

an my avatar, i smoke weed, i never do alcohol, how does that change what i say? is that the old attack the messanger instead of the message?
i have my master's in history, we historians like to hear testimony more than we like to find out about people with lots of knowledge simply being killed.

[Abq_Sarah]

79. bin Laden would have used a trial

As a platform to spread his lies and whip up his followers.

There is nothing he had to say that I even remotely give a shit about.

[reggie the dog]

81. you dont think he may have outed some people in high places

as having been in on planning 911 with him?

also what lies did he spread? when he said america was an imperial empire he was not a liar, when he said that americans oppressed people across north africa and the middle east he did not lie, look at all the dictators we supported

the us was and is a strong ally of the dictator in yemen who oppresses the people there. the uss cole was in port in yemen and symbolic of our alliance was a target. if osama explained this in a trial perhaps the american people would think "oh shit, maybe we shouldnt support dictators and get ourselves into this kind of shit"

also perhaps he could explain how some of our own people and leaders were willing to work with him due to their own greed and lust for oil

but now we will never have the chance to know what he knows.

i cant believe that you would not give a shit about anything he has to say. he organized an international terrorist network and you think he would have had nothing interesting to say?

[Abq_Sarah]

111. I wouldn't trust a single thing he had to say

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reggie the dog]

35. you would not have wanted to have him on trial

at the hague so he could have told us all of the neocons and other governments who helped him organize 911?

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. Oy vey

:eyes:

[reggie the dog]

45. tower 7? hell all the towers falling down

no video of plane hitting pentagon

debris field spead out over miles in pennsylvania which does not fit with the story that the plane crashed

do you think let it happen on purpose

or make it happen on purpose is impossible?

how much money did people like silverstien come out with?? 205 billion profit 198 billion in insurance money plus he saved 7 billion he would have spent on removing asbestos

how much money did halliburton and blackwater make?

who got all the platinum and gold from underneath the buildings.

bin laden would have likely fingered those who doublecrossed him.

[alcibiades_mystery]

76. Ay yay yay

:eyes:

[reggie the dog]

82. great well reasoned response

go ahead thinking that such a scenrio could not happen in the usa because american leaders are so irreprochable that they would never let their lust for power or money lead to the killing of 3000 peasants in their own country. rest in your confidence that they would only kill foreigners to perpetuate their power and wealth.


the debris field in pennsylvania, can you explain that one?

the towers falling tower 7 having not even been hit. i must be crazy right, i mean it is not like there have been any physics professors or structural engineers who have explained why they think that the official explanation is crap

the video of the "plane" hitting the pentagon must have convinced you too


i suppose you think that lee harvey oswald killed kennedy on his own too.....magic bullet right?

[justiceischeap]

23. I'm not seeing anywhere that says OBL was taking part in the firefight.

Just that there was a firefight and he was killed. I may be parsing hairs but any politician with their salt does the same thing.

Point in case, "I did not have sex with that woman."

[guitar man]

25. I don't give a damn

Sonofabitch needed killing and if that's what the President sent those SEALs there to do I'm fine with it, good on 'em.

[Capitalocracy]

26. They don't give our soldiers trials before they behead them!

They don't have any problem with torturing our guys, why shouldn't we torture them?

I've heard this argument before.

Deliberately shooting an unarmed man is not OK, especially one who desperately needed to be tried in court like this one. I'm reserving judgment because I don't know all the details (was it still a hot zone where maybe someone else would come shoot them while they were cuffing him or something like that, I don't know what's considered appropriate in a situation like that) but it sounds to me like someone decided a trial would be too hairy and went for extrajudicial execution. That's unacceptable.

[coalition_unwilling]

115. They do it so we should be able to do it too. Either a version of

'two wrongs make a right' or 'the end justifies the means'.

Both equally disgusting and unbefitting a democratic republic in the 21st century. Oh wait, strike that bit about a 'democratic republic' and replace with 'decadent empire' and extra-judicial executions make perfect sense.

[reggie the dog]

32. then why was he killed and not taken into custody for questioning?

afraid he would tell the people too many things that 'are too much for them to handle'???

[Distant Observer]

37. The serious questiong is: WAS THERE ANY ARMED RESISTANCE AT ALL in the house???

[Cali_Democrat]

62. Good question. n/t

[Modern_Matthew]

40. Boohoo... Poor, poor, innocent until proven guilty son of a bitch. nt

[reggie the dog]

50. he is now dead, you cannot ask him if he worked with cheney

perhaps he would have ratted some people out if their countries had doublecrossed him. do you not think that it is possible that bin laden would have talked just to brag about what he did, how people in our own country helped him kill their own countrypeople for money? who is saying "poor osama"? seriously who? i would have loved to have seen a trial to help get to the bottom of the 911 mystery.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

47. What? Al Qaeda's great leader didn't really engage in a shootout with Navy Seals?

He didn't go down in a blaze of defiant glory?

I hope when all is said and done he was caught hiding in the upper most floor of the house in a bedroom standing in a puddle of his own urine. That's the legacy a terrorist bastard like him deserves.

[Raffi Ella]

48. Good to know,

means our SEALS were in less danger when they shot that bastard in the face.


By the way did you all hear about the SEALS erupting in joy when they found out they were going on this mission?

I bet it felt AMAZING to be the one that got to do it. I wanna see the video and then the movie in all its glory.

[reggie the dog]

51. i dont understand why you didnt want him to be questioned

shouldnt the goal have been to capture him at that point? see if he would talk?

[girl gone mad]

52. Dead men tell no tales.

[reggie the dog]

53. and therein lies the problem

he probably had some damn good information to spill if he wanted to.

[mmonk]

61. Very true. And most likely the reason it was done in this manner

unless there was a surrounding firefight, which in that case, taking him out might be appropriate for even those that believe in the rule of law and do not fear it.

[Baclava]

66. Some people just need killing

Quest

World of Warcraft

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8fTd435RGrg/Taa8UBnQ3cI/AAAAAAAAAMA/5scRWV_J6O4/s400/Screen+shot+2011-04-14+at+10.18.21.png

[reggie the dog]

83. and should the brains of the operation be the one killed

or the one interrogated at length?

[Baclava]

90. Armchair quarterbacking a midnight raid on foreign soil is not my forté.

It's not a video game, you can't guarantee a win in any situation. If the target presents itself...

And they don't call back to Washington for approval every step of the way...SEAL teams have the autonomy to act as they see fit.

[reggie the dog]

107. you and i are both armchair quarterbacking

from what the french paper i bought at the news stand this moring called var matin if you speak french look online at www.varmatin.com, and the article states that the NSA said that the raid was a kill raid from the get go.

Killing somone who is trained in hand to hand combat and who attacks you is not a wrong move for a soldier to make. being ordered to kill without trying to capture, however, troubles me. i want to know who gave the order and why it was given, the order to kill, not capture.

[Baclava]

49. You know what I say....Nice shootin' Tex!

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Exactly. He probably wasn't armed when he told people to fly planes into buildings, either.

Fuck Him. Good Riddance.

[MineralMan]

57. The President never said that bin Laden was armed.

He said bin Laden was killed "after a firefight," and that he resisted. That is all President Obama said. I don't know where the idea that bin Laden himself was armed or fired a weapons came from, but it wasn't from President Obama.

So, the White House is clarifying something someone said. Who that someone was is unknown.

[joe_sixpack]

58. Had Osama actually been hiding in the mountains

and a predator drone shot a missile at the vehicle he was riding in, it would have been the same thing. The General of an opposing enemy force should be a viable military target. I have no problem with him being unarmed. There was a mission to hunt down and kill Yamamoto during World War 2. When we broke some code and found out his movements, his plane was shot down.

[Puregonzo1188]

59. So this was an extra-judicial execution than?

But that's ok because Osama was a bad man and the President is a Democrat.

[Baclava]

64. I bet with my Splinter Cell experience I could drop from a helicopter in the dark of night...

...in a foreign country with the clock ticking and make these split second decisions like it's a debate.

Put me in coach, I'm ready to play

[coalition_unwilling]

116. It's not wrong when a Prez from our party does it. Only wrong if

a Prez from the other party does it.

:sarcasm:

[Lucian]

63. I'm sure if it was Bush who went through this...

you all would be up in arms that they killed an unarmed guy in another country, and the changing of the official story just 48 hours after it happened.

But since it's Obama, you're all okay with that?

[Baclava]

67. I'm OK - you OK?

[Lucian]

68. No, I'm not.

I find it odd that the official story is changing after 48 hours.

[Baclava]

72. Fog of war - I'd wait till they release some type of debrief of the actual participants in the raid

Rumors get reported as fact all the time, I blame that "must scoop now" news reporting these days.

[Puregonzo1188]

70. If you wanted a cowboy President why didn't you like Bush or Reagan?

[Baclava]

73. If you can't support the President now - - when?

This is historic, I'm willing to see how it all plays out.

[reggie the dog]

84. its not about supporting the president or not

why did the NSA say that the mission was to kill him and not to take him into custody? that is in the press here in france, that the nsa admitted that it was a hit operation.

why?

why not a capture operation especially if he was unarmed?

is it not common in a war to let people surrender if they are unarmed?

would a leader have less of a right to surrender than a simple soldier?

[Baclava]

93. You don't send in SEAL's to negotiate a surrender - - think about it

It wasn't a debate.

[reggie the dog]

97. you damn sure can send in seals to do a capture

or to rescue a prisoner

or to do a hit

they are seals, they can get really tough jobs done.

they could have gone in with orders to take alive if at all possible

but the french press has the nsa as saying that the mission was a kill mission from the get go.

it is almost as if they wanted to silence him or not let him have a trial for some reason....

[Baclava]

105. Everything is possible from the comfy couch.

I don't know the whole situation - and neither do you.

Believe what you want.

[reggie the dog]

106. fair enough

[formernaderite]

123. it's obvious they were given a directive

to take a kill shot.

[Puregonzo1188]

110. Because I support the rule of law more.

I didn't get the "support the President" meme when Bush was in office and I don't get it now. I hold whoever's in charge to the same standards.

[coalition_unwilling]

117. Thank you. Everyone on DU could do with a serious dose of

Immanuel Kant (the big 'pissant' as Monty Python had it) who argued that for any morality to have legitimacy it must be universal. That means that if it's wrong for Bush to do x, y or z, it's equally wrong for Obama to do x, y or z. Except in DU-land where it's "My Prez, right or wrong."

Fucking disgusting and puerile. Unbefitting a mature democracy.

[Union Scribe]

128. No.

Would've been fine with Bush doing this too. Needed doing. And it wasn't just some "unarmed guy" ffs.

[bighart]

65. The big problem with all of this for me is that now the entire official account

can be called into question. The problem with lying is it only takes one small gaffe to expose it and then the entire thing comes under scrutiny.

[whatchamacallit]

74. Wake up man, the entire war on terror is a lie. (nt)

[bighart]

75. And look how well that has worked out for us.

[Cali_Democrat]

78. Exactly. n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

118. Actually, the 'war on terror' is a logical contradiction. You can't

declare war on a fucking emotion, for God's sake.

I suggest instead a Global War on Greed :)

[Bragi]

88. It may not actually be lying

It could be they put the story out too soon without confirming all the details, and then people started freelancing with the facts.

Your point remains valid, however, that any revisions put the whole story under a cloud.

[coalition_unwilling]

92. Here's my suggestion to you - let's just execute everyone accused

of a capital crime without giving them the courtesy of a trial. And, while we're at it, let's lie and say the persons we executed extra-judicially died while they were 'resisting arrest,' 'engaged in a firefight,' or 'insert favorite government lie here.'

:sarcasm:

[reggie the dog]

99. to be fair

osama did declare war on us, that is going a bit farther than even a serial killer

i agree that capturing him would have been best, and if he was unarmed it may have been possible

why not a knee shot for example, if he resisted without arms?

[coalition_unwilling]

104. There are stories out there today that he was either shot while

in custody or 'double-tapped' (executed after having been wounded).

I don't even know where to start if either of those two stories proves out.

[Capitalocracy]

120. He's not the first lunatic to declare war on us. Should Tim McVeigh

have been executed on sight instead of captured and tried?

[Solomon]

139. LOL The old knee shot, or arm shot or just wound him fantasy

Obviously you know absolutely nothing about engaging in this kind of situation. Cops and Seals and Soldiers don't shoot to wound when they shoot. What a joke. Yeah "I'll just try for his kneecap while he blows my frigging head off."

Look, I know you feel real important, but it's not about what you want or what you think. There's a whole fricking country to protect, And I know you don't like hearing this or knowing it, but if you or I get in the way of what's more important for this Country, it will roll right over us too and squash us like bugs. No matter what YOU or I want.

It's fantasy to think you could have a trial that wouldn't be seen by the world as a Kangaroo court.
And when you say "trial" the more appropriate term is "fair trial". Now how do you suppose he gets a "fair trial" with Americans on the jury? And where would you hold the trial seeing as how we can't even try the damn Gitmo detainees?

Save you crying for somebody wortth it. You're wasting yourself.

[Hosnon]

122. Jesus effing... you do realize we are talking about Osama bin Laden, right?

Executing the most wanted - and undeniably guilty - terrorist in the world in no way sets a legal precedent in the domestic judicial branch of the U.S. (and no rational person thinks it will).

[coalition_unwilling]

125. I think we should dispense with any quaint and obsolete ideas

as 'presumption of innocence,' 'right to counsel,' 'right against self-incrimination' and such niceties. I favor bringing back the Star Chamber and drawing and quartering in the public square. (Basically, let's return to the days before the Peace of Westphalia while we're at it.)

:sarcasm:

[Hosnon]

126. I think you need some perspective.

Hell let's just erase all legal advancements ever made because we possibly executed one of the few humans on history's very short list of undeniable assholes, right?

[coalition_unwilling]

127. Oh, we didn't just 'execute' him. We committed an extra-judicial

execution (big difference and one not so easily minimized). I think it's you who needs to review your history of Western Civ. While you're at it, be sure to review the work of Immanuel Kant on the universality of moral principles. (not sure I'm translating the German properly.)

[Hosnon]

132. My degree was in Philosophy so I'm familiar with Kant.

And I do not accept the categorical imperative. And even if I did, its application here supports my argument (as my argument is that the circumstances differ regarding how Osama expects to/should be treated and how a citizen accused of a crime in a domestic court expects to/should be treated).

[coalition_unwilling]

133. Not so sure it does. If you believe in the principle that , if you are

accused of a capital crime, you are entitled to a trial before being executed, then Kant would argue that same right to a trial extends to everyone, including the blackest of souls, even to Satan him- or herself.

My degree was in History (Intellectual and Modern Euroepan emphases).

It's not how Osama expects to be treated. It's what we expect of ourselves as a supposedly civilized people.

And, as Monty Python pointed out, "Immanuel Kant was a big pissant." :)

[Hosnon]

134. Were I Osama bin Laden, I would expect nothing less than what he got. nt.

What is the principal that you think the U.S. is universalizing by this action? "Denying due process to global-scale mass murderers is OK."? I see no problem with universalizing that...

[coalition_unwilling]

135. The principle is that Star Chamber courts and verdicts went out, um,

back in 1640, if memory serves, at the beginning of the Long Parliament. Summary execution without trial on the orders of the monarch is so 16th century.

I need hardly remind you that OBL was an 'accused' mass murderer on the day he died. Sure, he was convicted in the court of public opinion but, AFAIK, he was never convicted in any duly-constituted court.

[Hosnon]

137. Why are you equating the killing of bin Laden to the killing of a citizen?

And the treatment of a wartime belligerent to the treatment of a criminal?

[coalition_unwilling]

138. Well, let's see, where to start? Technically we aren't at war, since

only Congress can pass a Declaration of War, according to the U.S. Constitution. Congress never quite got around to doing that in this case, since I think we both agree there are few things as absurd as declaring war on an emotion like 'terror' (or perhaps, declaring war on a 'tactic' like 'terrorism').

The principle at stake here is that no one, be it Satan himself, gets executed by the state without a trial first. And there is no such thing as a 'wartime belligerent' if there is no declaration of war.

Since we're erecting straw men, what do you have against the presumption of innocence? And what do you have against the right to trial by a jury of one's peers?

[Union Scribe]

129. Some of these people are a trip aren't they?

Only on the internet can you find people who take bin Laden being shot and wind up with a dystopia where the cops find weed in your glovebox and shoot you in a ditch, lol.

[Greybnk48]

94. That was my first thought too. Fuck him!

Some of the people in the towers were in wheel chairs, and NO ONE was armed. They were defenseless and innocent, and so were the firefighters. I'm glad they shot him in the face. If that bothers some people, I apologize, but I won't retract my statements.

[Mrsadkins9399]

103. K&R nt

[coalition_unwilling]

119. Let's just do away with the pretense of due process of law and trials

and other such niceties and proceed directly to execution.

:sarcasm:

[underpants]

100. Neither was anyone on 9/11

[formernaderite]

121. I don't know... it does bother me a bit

if as they say now, he was unarmed? why not take him in? Honestly, I have a great deal of respect for our volunteer forces, even as a pacifist. I wouldn't want to do the job... if that was the case... I believe they had a directive telling them to take him out.

[donheld]

130. I don't care

[Spider Jerusalem]

136. The evolution of the story has been a bit strange.

"He was killed in a firefight; he had a Kalashnikov and was using his wife as a human shield!" "No, sorry, she wasn't his wife, wasn't used as a human shield, and she didn't die." "Oh, and he was unarmed."

I'm not especially sorry that Bin Laden is dead. I don't particularly approve of the method of his going, either, though. It looks more and more like an extra-judicial execution. If he was unarmed, then it's pretty clear the intent was to kill, not to capture. Based on the initial story, he was killed while armed and actively resisting capture, which, fair play...but if he was killed while unarmed? That puts a different spin on it. The rule of law ought to mean something, after all.