On war and valid targets

[nadinbrzezinski]

Much has been written by a few people about how this man was executed without a trial

While I'd love to have this bastard tried (at the Hague for Crimes against Humanity, let me remind you of a few things.

This man DECLARED WAR on the US in 1998. Granted, usually a nation state declares war, not a person... but he did.

He saw himself as a field commander, even if far removed from the field.

He was a valid military target. Just as if the bad guys managed to bag a US general... this is the equivalent.

In war people die. and at times people who have done quite a few evil things.

Now his wife... he was using her as a human shield (taking this to a point with a grain of cesium,)... but there is more. OBL actually took far in the fire fight, with with like an actual gun.

So no, this was not an execution. It was a military operation, where there were people killed...

Oh and by the way, I ain't sharing in the grave dancing... I understand the consequences short term, and medium to long term I do hope it means the end of the war on terror, but I don't share in the fantasy of the troops coming home tomorrow. War ain't over... as much as I wish it were.

[seabeyond]

1. a post, of yours, i totally agree with. nt

[The Magistrate]

2. Indeed, Ma'am: This Is About as Clean As A Kill Gets

The spectacle of people trapped in moral posturing can only be regarded with bemusement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Yep, as clean as it gets

[coalition_unwilling]

4. Nadin, have you read this little clip from Reuters today?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

I think it's stories like this that have me concerned. OBL could view himself as a military leader, but that doesn't make it so or mean that the rule of law is set aside.

I believe in the due process of the law and, if the Reuters story is credible, find that expedience took precedence over the rule of law. A bad precedent has been set here, imho.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I have and what I wrote stands

this was a valid military target... even if you consider him a valid target as a leader of a terror cell.

And the precedent on this was not set by the US... actually by Italy with the Red Brigades in the 1970s, the Germans, Red Brigades, and to a point the Brits and the IRA.

Treating the detainment or elimination of a terrorist cell leader as a military or paramilitary operation precedes the US by a few decades.

[coalition_unwilling]

7. Well, there is the inconvenient little matter of Executive Order 11905,

signed into law by Ford and subsequently modified but retained by Reagan.

I see 9-11 as a criminal matter, subject to due process of law and its attendant magesty. i do not see 9-11 as a military matter, Bush be damned.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Applies to heads of state

was OBL a head of state?

[coalition_unwilling]

13. Good point. He was not technically speaking a 'head of state' but

he was, more broadly speaking, a 'foreign leader'.

Do you see 9-11 and terrorism as phenomena susceptible to military solutions? I don't and I think that may be where we disagree. But maybe my assumption that it is primarily a law-enforcement matter (with all that entails in the way of due process of law) needs some adjustment. I got so tired of being called a 'traitor' and worse during the Bush years that it's been awhile since I examined my thinking on these matters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Actually this is exactly the way it should have been treated from word go

Intelligence and small specialized teams. Police activity in places like this, is not your cops on the beat. It is very specialized paramilitary or military teams.

As to who does the intel, in this case you need the full capability of intel, whether it is done by Interpol, or the National Intel Apparatus.

As a person who participated in more than one police raid, (in the background) I am also aware that it is chaotic, and that at times your target resists and is killed in the process. That does not mean it was an execution. It just means you got a nasty firefight. So if the bullet was fired by a SEAL, or a SWAT team member... dead is dead.

Quite honestly we actually gave him what he wanted... a warrior's death on the battlefield.

[coalition_unwilling]

17. Back to the Reuters story. It was the dispensing with any

attempt to take OBL alive that caused me and others here such disquiet and prompted me to review the Church Committee's work in the mid 70s.

I don't think it's fair or appropriate to say we brought OBL "to justice" when capturing him alive was never part of the mission (if the Reuters story is to be believed). We brought him to 'summary justice' maybe. In my opinon, 'justice' demanded that we try him in a court of law.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I will be brutally honest

regardless of OP Orders... they would never bag him alive.

PERIOD!

Unless they bagged him at a hospital and in a coma. It is like a few Drug Lords, they know that capture and TRIAL ain't good. So they will resist to the point of death. THey will take a few with them if they can. That is the nature of people like this.

Also stories without actual attribution are put in the wild for operational reasons but should always be taken with a grain of strontium. In fact, they really don't have the effect they wish they did, since those that these stories are directed at... KNOW THIS.

[Dogmudgeon]

16. You may be jumping to a conclusion

This appears to be a "leak" without attribution -- "a U.S. national security official told Reuters".

You can be certain that military doctrine was being adhered to in the operation, and I have my doubts that it mandated anyone's death via extrajudicial killing.

There's just too little accurate information that has been released yet. In a few days, a week, we'll have much better answers.

--d!

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Fair enough, except that much of the news from D.C. proceeds

from exactly these types of unattributed leaks. I have always considered Reuters a fairly reputable news source.

I'm totally with you though about the epistemological abyss we all confront and have since 9-11-2001. As Randi Rhodes used to say, "Who are you going to trust, Republicans or your own lying eyes?" (Paraphrasing roughly based on memories). I feel the vaguest sense of disquiet. I wanted to see OBL face trial and a jury of his peers. Call me quaint and obsolete.

[TwilightGardener]

6. I agree.

[elocs]

9. That OBL was shot doe not mean he was executed.

Many in our very own Gungeon would not be caught without packing their sidearm so it would be safe to say that OBL was not only armed but dangerous and very likely would not be taken alive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. The moment he picked up a weapon...

[johnaries]

11. Absolutely. Thanks for posting this.

[rustydog]

12. Make it simpler yet, the team went in to take bin Laden

news reports say he fought back ferociously. If he was indeed shooting at the troops, it was impossible to take him in to custody alive and, in order to save the lives of troops, bin Laden needed to be killed and was.

Capture, trial and imprisonment or execution may have been preferred by many, but in life-threatening events like the assault on the compound, death is highly likely.

[blondeatlast]

14. Very well said. It would be a much better world if war could operate the same way our judicial

system does; but it never can and it never will.

k/r

[octothorpe]

20. Can't argue with your points. I only wish there wasn't the slightly creepy celebrations

in the streets. You know, people running around with American flags wrapped around them while signing the national anthem. It doesn't make much sense for this, since in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really change much. It's not like VJ or VE day was to WW2. Ennh, but that's not the point of your threat so I should shut up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I agree with you

but that is the jingo reaction.

To me... meh, a bad guy bought the farm...

But I guess that is life experience as well. To me Sept 11, 2001 was pregnant with real changes. A husband in the Navy and on patrol meant that patrol just became a war patrol.

This, last night I am at home, he is playing a game on the computer and has been retired for a while.

MEH.

Some of those kids though have the fantasy that the war is over... which it ain't