"OBL died years ago."

[WilliamPitt]

I keep seeing this here and elsewhere.

Um.

If the GW Bush administration had actually managed to get the guy, does anyone really think they would have kept it quiet?

They would have dragged his body through Times Square at high noon. Bush would have put on a SEAL uniform under a "Mission Accomplished II" banner.

They would have run it across the sky in klieg lights.

Just sayin'.

[K8-EEE]

1. It's a freeper meme and prob those saying it here are

their "DU inflitration squad" or whatever.

Hello, there's something called DNA, they can find these things out for sure.

[OnyxCollie]

24. Benazir Bhutto was a Freeper?

Who knew?

She said bin Laden was dead in 2007. Maybe we can ask her what she thinks now.

Oh, wait...

[pipi_k]

44. Of course not!!!

She was assassinated by our government because it didn't want her leaking the good news about OBL's death during Bush's term. Somebody was trying to spoil his Legacy!

In fact, I would even maybe credit the Bushies with doing most of the cover-up because they knew that a black guy named Obama would be President and they decided to graciously cede the honor of "killing" OBL to him.

It's all good...

:7

[OnyxCollie]

52. Let's see...

who should I believe?

A woman who said Osama was dead, and was later assassinated (as was her father before her), or an Obama fangirl?

Hmm...

[pipi_k]

54. We believe what we want to believe...

Sometimes things happen coincidentally in the world and people link them together to make some kind of "AHA!!!" moment.

Even if no other proof exists.

Never mind logic. Never mind looking for a rational motive.


This this and this happened, so it must equal this. OK.


Oh, and I'm not an "Obama fangirl"


I dare anyone here to find any post where I've given CLEAR indication of which side of the "Obama is the best" vs the "Obama sucks" controversy I'm on.

The truth of it is, I'm in the middle. I don't think he sucks, and I don't think he's the best thing since Jesus.

[OnyxCollie]

58. "We believe what we want to believe...

Sometimes things happen coincidentally in the world and people link them together to make some kind of "AHA!!!" moment.

Even if no other proof exists.

Never mind logic. Never mind looking for a rational motive."

Some things are considered coincidences because people fail to see the forest for the trees.

One must first understand the rules of the game, as well as the constraints which make up the players' character.

It is then necessary to identify that which is systematic and nonsystematic. This requires research both extensive and detailed.

Attention must be paid to the efficiency and the bias of the estimators.

If the nonsystematic elements become predictable, there must be an unidentified explanatory variable.



Since my dogs are waiting for me to join them in the yard, I'll make this quick:

I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, lady.

[pipi_k]

69. Like I said....

People believe what they want to believe.

I have to admit that I didn't know anything significant about Benazir Bhutto or her father.

I really do not have a dog in this fight. It doesn't matter a hill of beans to me when OBL was killed. So I decided to do a search on the Bhuttos.

From what I read, it seems there were LOTS of reasons why they would have been targeted for assassination.

LOTS.


When I consider what could be gained by killing OBL all that time ago and then keeping it secret, yes, it makes sense that they needed a bogeyman. But they could have dragged him out near the end of W's second term and used him to glorify W's fake pResidency. They didn't. Why not? Give me a logical answer to that, please.

Also, give me an answer that makes sense as to how, if this was a huge plot, people managed to keep it secret that OBL was really killed years ago. They have DNA. What we're supposed to believe is that everybody involved in this now is in on the "plot"?

OBL dead years ago = plots, secrecy, more plots, counter plots, counter secrecy, fear of secret holders revealing secrets, etc.

OBL dead yesterday = They found him. They shot him. Simple.

I dunno...I'm going for the simple explanation being the real one.

:shrug:

[OnyxCollie]

70. People believe what others tell them to believe.

"When I consider what could be gained by killing OBL all that time ago and then keeping it secret, yes, it makes sense that they needed a bogeyman. But they could have dragged him out near the end of W's second term and used him to glorify W's fake pResidency. They didn't. Why not? Give me a logical answer to that, please."

How would this be done? How would Osama's presence help Chimpy? How would the media portray this? How would Joe Sixpack see this?

In 2007, Chimpy was pushing the The Surge®. They were trying to appear "in control" in Iraq.

Do you think Osama would have help that? Please explain, in detail, how this would work.

Your explanation shows that you don't understand what you're talking about.

On edit: Did you mean by "dragged him out" that Bushco would announce they had captured and killed Osama? Hell no, they wouldn't do that. That would put pressure on them to get out of Iraq. This was the time when they were trying to put a lid on the Iraq civil war. They were still waiting on the hydrocarbon law to be passed.

[pipi_k]

71. I understand exactly what I'm talking about

Most people KNEW that OBL was not in Iraq.

The whole reason we were there was because Bush falsely associated Saddam Hussein WITH OBL.

And, if that weren't bad enough, "Iraq possessed WMDs".

Well, even if OBL were killed, that wouldn't have negated the reason why we were in Iraq to begin with. Even the fact that no WMDs were found didn't end the mission...whatever it was...in Iraq.

It wouldn't have mattered one whit because the justifications for being in Iraq kept changing. And nobody much cared except people who thought we shouldn't have been there to begin with.

In fact, even Bush himself said that he didn't know, nor did he even care where OBL was. If OBL was so important to the "mission" in Iraq, they could have faked intelligence saying he was there. But they didn't. He was somewhere in Pakistan. Or Afghanistan. Or even walking the streets of NYC in disguise.

An alive OBL was not crucial to the "mission" in Iraq. The only thing an alive OBL was crucial to was the Terror Index.


Oh, and I saw where Dick Cheney himself came out and gave grudging praise to the people involved in killing OBL. At this point in time there would be no reason for them to keep up a charade, if there was one. He could just as easily say THEY got him years ago and then provide proof. How foolish would that make the Obama Administration look, I wonder. Really, really foolish. It would probably finish Obama off for 2012.

But...well...I suppose Dick Cheney must also be in on the whole plot as well.

[OnyxCollie]

72. "The whole reason we were there was because Bush falsely associated Saddam Hussein WITH OBL."

You said it.

Now explain why the Obama administration colluded with the GOP to stop Spain's investigation of the US for war crimes, as per the diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks.

"But...well...I suppose Dick Cheney must also be in on the whole plot as well."

Then again, maybe you did.

[JackRiddler]

62. Benazir Bhutto obviously misspoke, and in context it's obvious she meant Sheikh killed Daniel Pearl.

[snooper2]

32. No, there are a lot of truthers here...check out the dungeon

that's been the story for almost a decade now


Just ask Alex Jones :rofl:

[FreakinDJ]

2. Bush dropped the Ball - Obama scored the Touch Down

[Dennis Donovan]

3. Don't piss in someone's Conspiracy Theory cornflakes...

:D

[JuniperLea]

4. This place is a cesspit of un-Americanism, conspiracy theories and outright lies...

The past week or so have been ridiculous, and this is the cherry on top of the cesspit Sunday.

[JackRiddler]

60. You're right. We probably need a House Committee on un-Americanism.

[LanternWaste]

67. A Committee on the Absurd may be more appropriate.

A Committee on the Absurd may be more appropriate.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. The body would have been dragged through the streets

the week before the 2004 election. And they would have had him stuffed and mounted, or maybe just his head mounted on the wall like a prize elk.

[seabeyond]

6. that has beent he question of the day. i cannot tell you how many times i asked on the numerous

threads last night and not one answer. forget logical answer. but no answer at all

[hlthe2b]

41. I know... I asked similar questions of several posters--Crickets...

....

[valerief]

7. Wasn't keeping OBL alive a reason to keep the War on Terra alive?

GWB connected OBL with 911 in his war hype. Otherwise, wouldn't they have killed him--and said so--at Tora Bora?

I'm no freeper, but I don't know what to believe. And it doesn't matter to me. I just want to know what the announcement of the death of OBL means to regular people. Will the govt (corporate puppetmasters) hurt us more or hurt us less?

[Common Sense Party]

8. This meme has been repeated thousands of times here on DU

over the last decade.

The reasoning usually goes, "They killed him, but wanted to keep him alive in the minds of the world, so that they could justify their wars of aggression against Muslim countries." Or something like that.

This isn't new.

[rfranklin]

19. it seemed too inept for OBL to have survived the mighty War on Terror...

but the fear was that his corpse was being saved for political puposes the 2004 in particular. Having him on the loose was almost as effective.

[dems_rightnow]

34. No, they were going to....

.... drag him out right before an election!

[Common Sense Party]

35. Oh, yes. That one, too. n/t

[Raksha]

49. Well, uh...it's not RIGHT before an election,

but the thought has occurred to a few people since Obama broke the news last night. I don't think anyone expected it to be Obama who finally produced the corpse of America's Most Wanted, though--not even here on DU.

Let me say that I'm glad secrecy was maintained up to the very end so the mission was successful. This is one of the very few valid reasons for it.

[Solomon]

9. As I said, and know you don't agree, but many have invested

emotionally in "Obama is a failure" so he gets credit for nothing. Absolutely nothing. Whatever he does get done is a "so what" and what he can't get done means he's a compromising weakling.

[freshwest]

12. You nailed it! Still, any excuse will do for ending the war on terra. Thanks, Obama!

[emulatorloo]

14. A lot of these posts are pretty transparent. That is the agenda

of some of our louder members.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Who says I don't agree?

I see the same things here that you do.

[seabeyond]

17. i dont get that thinking. i really dont. i dont walk that way in life. each now is its own now

in my thinking. so it is very hard for me to keep this in my mind

[Forkboy]

33. I can't get excited over it because I don't know if it will result in any change in approach.

There are people out there exactly like you claim, but for me I just see this as more a symbolic thing more than anything else. That's fine in and of itself, but how will that translate to our approach in the Middle East? That's what I care about, and right now it's just too soon to say. I'm hoping this symbolic change will translate into a concrete change in the M.E., an excuse to get out. Obama doesn't have to say anything directly, but I would hope to see in the coming days and weeks some signals from his Administration that there's a change in the mindset we use in the Middle East.

It's also hard to feel much because I thought OBL was dead anyways. When I went to bed last night I thought OBL was dead. When I woke up I saw that OBL was dead. The only change is my timing. I still feel the same as I did yesterday, so there's no sense of excitement. I already went through these feelings back when I first assumed OBL was dead. There's no new emotion this time to deal with. I guess for some there's a sense of closure that this may provide, but that's not important for me personally.

I do give Obama credit for this. It closes one chapter and gives us an opportunity to open a new one. Where we go with this has the potential to excite me more than this does though.

And I totally give him credit for announcing it during The Apprentice. :rofl:

[JonLP24]

Agree 100%

Especially first paragraph

[Kurovski]

61. +1

I just assumed he was dead too. We heard near to nothing from him in so long. Dead twice? Hey, all the better.

I feel very much the way you do, and the Trump card you spotted there was great. I look forward to what happens next.

[Renew Deal]

10. "Mission Accomplished II"

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

11. You want to second guess the cess pool that is Cheney's mind?

Not me. :)

[Sheepshank]

13. Remember when McCain said he "knew" where Bin Laden was...

...and knew how to get him?

Can you even imagine the campaign coup that would have been if he could have claimed to help Bushco finding Bin Laden. The reps totally would have used it to their advantage during those elections.

The whole thing is a stupid farce.

[H2O Man]

16. Recommended.

President Obama correctly reported Usama bin Laden's death.

[JonLP24]

18. I thought he probably was

I really didn't know but if strongly felt the he was already dead, Bush would need these wars to continue and OBL is the guy you need around to justify that.

[Mojorabbit]

28. I thought he was dead too

and I just got in from out of town late last night and have not been following this am's details of what happened. Hopefully they have his body and all of this can be put to rest once and for all.

[JonLP24]

31. Body was buried at sea

but they say got his DNA before that and it matches.

[Forkboy]

30. Same here, and for the same reasons.

OBL is a symbol anyways, soon to be replaced by someone new and improved.

[Kingofalldems]

20. Bush would have had that cod piece sewn on permanently

[demgurl]

21. I think we are losing sight of what is important here....

They have announced the DNA but will they release the DNA long form results? I hope this post does not give Faux News any ideas!

[WilliamPitt]

22. I got their "long form" right here.

:P

[Solomon]

27. LOL

:rofl:

[emulatorloo]

23. I'm sure the mighty wurlitzer is warming up right now

[kickysnana]

25. No, BFEE needed a bogeyman to continue erosion of our rights in the name of security and

continuing military operations related to war and the dollar in the middle East.

They went so far as to allow the assassination of Bhutto to shut her up.

Unfortunately Obama turned out to be a ringer and the smart money says there will be another monetary crash imminent ala 2008 and another facet again in the fall They did manage to cool off silver over night and made a dent in gold and oil but it went right back up so it did not solve the problem but perhaps we won't mind so much now that the bogeyman is gone.

I am glad he is gone but he was just a symbol of our failed foreign policy, and failed Intelligence and the erosion of our power and prestige.

Wish it weren't so but I just can't bring myself to pretend it isn't as we are in too deep and need a way out not more mire to cover things up.

[peace13]

29. Please don't remind the folks here of these issues.

It was a scary time and it upsets the folks to look back. I prefer the miracle that we got Osama on the anniversary of Mission Accomplished and that it was necessary to dump him in the sea instead of saving his sorry *ss so that we could get his rendition (no pun intended) of what really happened over the last eleven years. Please Mr. bin laden tell me about Uncle Shooter and his ticks.

[pipi_k]

56. If that's true, then...

the BFEE would have used him, then dragged him out near the end of Bush's term to put a crown on his pResidency.

Little George would have gone down in history as the guy who brought in OBL.

That didn't happen.

Why not?

[peace13]

26. Oh Will, I don't know about that.

Remember that Osama's family members were the only folks allowed to fly on 911 after all of the airlines were grounded. * and Shooter and Osama were partners in crime and needed each other (or the illusion of each other) to exist. And then there is the issue of the * admin pulling Osama out the hat at every election cycle. Don't forget Bhutto's proclamation to David Frost in 2007 that Osama was dead. This video was shot shortly before her assassination. She didn't miss a beat and Frost never questioned her. Here is the link. The juice is at 2:18 but the whole thing is worth the watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg

[Canuckistanian]

36. Well, I don't think they were saying he was killed by America

Just that he died from from his well-known kidney disease.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipi_k]

38. Exactly. It would have been the one

major accomplishment of his entire 8 years.

He would have gone down in History as the guy who captured/killed the worst terrorist ever...the mastermind behind the worst terror act on US soil.


I would imagine right about now that Bush is gnashing his teeth over this and beating his breast with an empty Jack Daniels bottle whining, "WHY HIM???? Why not ME????"


I can't see why people are believing he died a long time ago and they're just announcing now that he was "killed".

It would have made more sense for the Bushies to drag him out near the end of his term so he'd have a huge feather in his cap for all Posterity.

[Kurovski]

65. This was all settled in my mind.

But you always seem so unconvincing in talking points. Maybe it's the heavy-handed overstatement. (three question marks are enough, as one example.)

Nah! I'm kidding, That dirty mother fucker is one dead bastard!

[Ghost in the Machine]

39. Fail! No one said Bush killed him. The story was that bin Laden had died of lung complications

and was buried somewhere by his people. The story said that the troops would never find him. I expected better of you, Mr Pitt. Unrecced (sadly) for an uninformed post....

[WilliamPitt]

42. I thought it was kidney disease.

Next it'll be rickets.

Just sayin'.

If he was dead, they would have shouted it from the rooftops, whether they "got" him or not.

[pipi_k]

46. Just a rumor, but...

I heard it was Viagra.

He waited one hour too long.

[Ghost in the Machine]

48. Here's an excerpt of a post I did last night, explaining why some people think he's been dead

for years...

Fox News: "Bin Laden Already Dead"

Wednesday, December 26, 2001

Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.

"The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.

Bin Laden, according to the source, was suffering from a serious lung complication and succumbed to the disease in mid-December, in the vicinity of the Tora Bora mountains. The source claimed that bin Laden was laid to rest honorably in his last abode and his grave was made as per his Wahabi belief.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x312573

[JackRiddler]

59. Have you forgotten the part where that ridiculous OBL video...

the one released days before the 2004 election, when he talked like Michael Moore and practically endorsed Kerry, helped put Bush over the top?

The myth of OBL as an uncatchable Scarlet Pimpernel who could appear to wreak havoc at any time served the Bush regime exceedingly well for a number of years. Immanuel Goldstein isn't supposed to die.

Anyway, not everything in the world has to seem logical to the rational mentality. I'm sure you wouldn't have trouble with the thesis that the principals in the Bush regime, the hardcore permanent operations spooks, and their former friends among the Afghan Arab mujahedeen... all have their psychopathic sides.

If you're really interested in something other than mocking skepticism of government stories about OBL (since 2001, not just since yesterday), then you look at the evidence. Find yourself all the various OBL videos and if you can convince yourself it's all the same guy, or that the 2007 one (where the audio goes on for TWELVE MINUTES over a still image from the 2004 video) is ironclad evidence of a real OBL... well good for you. And even if you think the December 2001 video (the one called a confession to 9/11) was real, the deceptions around its translation are well-documented.

The larger issue is the inherent post-reality and stage management of countless events involving war and covert actions, since forever, and even more so since 9/11. After the unravelling of initial stories about Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman, "the Spider Hole," the Niger documents, the incubator babies, the Yemen drone attacks (also under Obama), and so many other matters, assuming distance to an initial story involving an "accidental" helicopter crash in a firefight, instant DNA confirmation that the dead guy is OBL, and a sea burial seems... sane. I don't "believe" either way, and know that I do not know.

[Ghost in the Machine]

66. Very well said, JackRiddler...thanks for saying it..n/t

[DainBramaged]

40. Those here who say it been drinking the stinky tea

:hi:

[hfojvt]

43. sorry William, that is just wrong

Osama was more use to them alive than he was dead, that's why they let him go at Tora Bora. If you kill the Boogey man, then you cannot use him to frighten your children into eating their vegetables, doing their homework, taking a bath, and going to bed on time.

If Osama is dead, then you cannot use him to re-elect Bush, or elect McCain, who had a secret plan to capture Osama, if only he had been elected.

Killing Osama, is like killing Saddam. It gives you a momentary bump, but it also kinda blunts the whole war on tara thing. Now how are they supposed to scare the voters into voting Republican?

[OneGrassRoot]

45. Wow, I think this is the first time I'm (inadvertently) being refered to as a Freeper...lol

That's okay.

:)

To answer your question, I'm one of those people who has believed all along that anything is possible as it concerns the entire 9/11 scenario and Bin Laden. I'm very much a skeptic, trying to keep the big picture in mind as these events unfold.

I may be inclined to think certain things, but I haven't had a definitive feeling of "Yes! This is how it all went down."

I think it's possible that, if OBL had been killed ages ago (edit to add: or even died another way, with BushCo knowing about it), it was kept quiet -- against conventional wisdom that BushCo would use it to the hilt -- in order to keep the whole War on Terror going.

Even though we all know...left, right and center...that one person doesn't constitute the totality of the threat of terrorism, OBL was the official boogeyman. With him gone, they lost some control of that meme.

That said, I also don't necessarily doubt that OBL was killed -- and disposed of -- exactly as Obama described. The burial at sea is actually logical, to me, based on what little I've heard.

I simply don't know and, quite frankly, I'm pretty noncommittal and neutral about the whole OBL thing. If this can somehow turn the tide for troops to be brought home, then I will celebrate that for sure! I'm also relieved if it gives comfort to others and brings some measure of closure.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

47. There are some people here who are simply NEVER going to be happy. About anything. Ever.

Let me qualify that; they might express guarded optimism a) if the human race was known to be hours away from permanent extinction or b) during the first few days of a Ralph Nader presidency, before he "sold out to corporatists and banksters"

[blondeatlast]

57. It's a mindset similar to the Dominionists.

It's hopeless so they kind of hope the end comes sooner than later--but in the meantime, they gotta get all the preachifyin' and superiority in that they can.

I dealt with lots of Dominionists when I grew up and I'm just fucking sick of that mindset here on DU. I remember when we used to have damn good discussion and an occasional fun flamewar. Now it's becoming Tinnuthattery Central.

[librechik]

50. Bush let him go. They weren't interested in him after that, according to Bush

he "just doesn't think that much about him. "

[Kurovski]

64. Family friends.

And business acquaintances? I don't know what the term for that is.

[BobbyBoring]

51. THINK

America has always needed a "Bogey man". Bush needed Bin Laden alive period.

And, Bush didn't get the guy. He died from kidney failure the story goes.

Sure, If Bush did kill him, I'm sure he would throw a lasso around his neck and drag him across the country. Didn't happen.

[Alameda]

53. maybe he died yesterday or years ago....I would have preferred a trial

Who knows when he died, his life served a purpose as a rallying point for wars and other ugly actions. I hope his death will not further fuel hateful action.

I would have preferred a trial. I wanted to see the evidence. Guess I'm just old fashioned and saw too many Gun smoke shows where Matt defended the prisoner's rights to a trial.

[Armstead]

55. But remember that was a very common theory on DU when Bush was King

remember all the talk about the October Surprise people kept expecting?

[Poll_Blind]

63. That belief was not based on Bush killing OBL, but OBL dying on the run in a cave somewhere.

Did that really escape you all these years?

PB

[LiberalEsto]

68. Bush would have stuffed THREE socks in his crotch nt