I STILL don't support execution without trial

[AlabamaLibrul]

Since everyone is making an OP for every last thought, I just thought I'd let you know.

[cliffordu]

1. War. This has been war. He is no longer an enemy combatant (by his own word)

now he's just a dead asshole.

he should have given himself up.

[Tarheel_Dem]

4. +1.

:thumbsup:

[AlabamaLibrul]

8. Of course, those who commit heinous crimes are not all that likely to give themselves up

But we have a process, and as evidenced by Guantanamo Bay, we clearly have no problem capturing people who we believe are enemy combatants.

That is the correct process.

[immoderate]

46. Lots of people rounded up for Guantanamo. Not bin Laden.

As you say, he was not likely to give up. (Suicide terrorist.)

--imm

[Incitatus]

2. I doubt he was willing to be taken alive. nt

[leftstreet]

3. Not only that, but didn't they just blow a huge opportunity for intelligence?

Slap the right charges on bin Laden, see who he'd roll on

:shrug:

[emulatorloo]

12. Yes I am sure he was ready to turn himself in

????????

[leftstreet]

18. Do we know if he was given the option?

:shrug:

[Tarheel_Dem]

15. It would have been an "opportunity" if he were willing to be taken alive.

You do know what a firefight is, right? :shrug:

[emulatorloo]

5. There was a firefight. He wasn't going to allow himself to be arrested,

People get killed in firefights.

[Old and In the Way]

6. Wouldn't capturing him alive and making him stand trial have been more satisfying.

I would have been very interested in hearing what his defense would have been.

[okieinpain]

14. well sure but do you really think that guy was going to be taken

alive.

[Old and In the Way]

30. Probably not, but I think we have a lot of tools in the arsenal.

Fast acting KO gas? Ibocaine darts? If we got him with a head shot, we should have been close enough to incapacitate him. He may not have wanted to be taken alive, but if we wanted the full story on 9/11, it would have helped to bring him to justice and allowed him to either declare his guilt publicly or prove his innocence, no?

[Historic NY]

7. There was an exchange of gun fire & they held a female shield..

[Johonny]

9. don't shoot at special forces of the country you declared war on

and you might get to your trial.

[tammywammy]

10. I doubt he was willing to go out alive. n/t

[cbdo2007]

11. I don't either, but I'm glad that fucker is dead.

[themadstork]

13. Wasn't there a fight?

If they were firing shots then it isn't an execution.

[emulatorloo]

16. yes.

[blondeatlast]

17. Aren't you precious? Sorry I offended thee for spilling my guts.

Bless your heart again.

[AlabamaLibrul]

19. You're cute, for thinking you're the only person I bothered to notice

Seriously, just back off, how about that?

[GodlessBiker]

20. So, if we were closing in on Berlin and had a good shot at Hitler, or on Rome at Mussolini, ...

we shouldn't have taken that shot? That would be execution?

[AlabamaLibrul]

Yes, it would be execution

wouldn't it?

[GodlessBiker]

24. I don't think so. I don't think a soldier taking aim at an enemy soldier and killing him is ...

execution. I think that would be a misuse of that word.

[AlabamaLibrul]

32. Well if that enemy soldier

is the leader of a nation, I guess technically it would be an assassination.

The term these days is "targeted killing", but they're all just names for death.

[Renew Deal]

34. What nation was Bin Laden a leader of?

:shrug:

[AlabamaLibrul]

36. He wasn't one. Please read post 20 which started this subthread

It would prevent a lot of foot-in-mouth disease.

[GodlessBiker]

45. You're so old school thinking wars have to be against nations.

Communications have allowed organizations to evolve to become enemies of states.

[GodlessBiker]

47. So, leaders of an enemy in a war get special protections which soldiers ...

on the field don't get? How egalitarian of you.

[AlabamaLibrul]

51. Because it's a different word that means they get 'special protections'? nt

[immoderate]

50. No. An execution is a legal, directed death.

It could be an assassination, if he was surprised when he died. :)

Do you think Osama was surprised that people were shooting at him?

--imm

[TransitJohn]

41. That was a war, properly declared and legal. Big difference, no?

Congress needs to let their nuts drop and take their power they've ceded to the executive back.

[GodlessBiker]

66. No. Saying there is a difference allows the executive branch to treat enemy soldiers ...

as if they are not enemy soldiers, but merely enemy combatants, not entitled to certain Geneva Conventions protections. This has been a war and there have been soldiers on both sides.

[TransitJohn]

67. So what state are we fighting?

:shrug:

[JVS]

57. SMERSH had orders to take him alive if possible, and Stalin was not pleased...

when he learned that Hitler had killed himself.

[ecstatic]

21. Would the great state of AL have hosted his trial?

:shrug: Something tells me... no...

[AlabamaLibrul]

22. That's not up to me to decide, thanks nt

[cbdo2007]

23. Oh, did he surrender?? I must have missed that on the news.

[fujiyama]

25. How do you hold a trial for someone

unwilling to be caught alive?

Seriously. This criticism is the dumbest I've seen.

[AlabamaLibrul]

28. Did we ask him, or just start bombing and shooting? I don't know. nt

[Carnage251]

26. unreced

[AlabamaLibrul]

27. Ok

Anything else to add?

[Carnage251]

55. Please, oh please tell me how he was supposed to be captured alive!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1007358

[AlabamaLibrul]

56. So by linking to your OP here, you're willing to admit it was just to call me and others out nt

[johnaries]

29. I don't either - but this wasn't an execution. He was killed in a firefight. nt

[bighart]

63. "Kill do not capture"

Strike teams orders as reported by CNN.

[Renew Deal]

31. Are you still pissed Hitler didn't get a trial?

:shrug:

[AlabamaLibrul]

33. Hitler killed himself. Irrelevant.

[Renew Deal]

35. Completely relevant.

Are you pissed he didn't get a trial?

[AlabamaLibrul]

39. Are you drawing Hitler comparisons to try to smear me?

[Renew Deal]

No

This has nothing to do with you. :shrug:

[AlabamaLibrul]

44. Well you're asking questions of me

and to answer them, no I'm not pissed Hitler didn't get a trial because he chose to kill himself. You can't get a trial when you're dead, and Hitler was the one that caused that.

[Renew Deal]

49. Is this really different?

I guess we don't know yet. But I doubt Bin Laden was offering hugs.

[EFerrari]

37. Are you sorry we signed the Geneva Conventions?

Or sorry the Nuremberg trials were held?

:shrug:

[Renew Deal]

38. No

It's unfortunate they had to happen. But you have to have a way to deal with these things.

[kenny blankenship]

40. If you want to put somebody on trial first you have to capture them.

And if they don't want to be captured, you're going to have to risk killing them to catch them. In the case of an enemy General or terrorist mastermind, you don't knock on the door and tell them you have a warrant. This isn't somebody who missed a court date for parking tickets - they are presumed highly dangerous, accompanied by armed subordinates, and they probably have an escape route. You go in with force and attempt to surprise and overwhelm their defenders to take them alive. But if immediate capture isn't possible, you shoot them. Killing them to prevent any chance of escape is what any country that has ever existed would do, if the attempt to capture wasn't succeeding.

If they only wanted to kill OBL they could have just bombed the house and dropped special forces in right behind the bombs to search the rubble for the body of the target. Attack helicopters could give the ground team all the time they need to look. There's a chance that you wouldn't find the body because it's buried under debris or blown to bits. But if you just want OBL dead, doing it that way would represent less danger to the team on the ground.

[Renew Deal]

43. Logic will not work with certain people.

And then there are some that are upset today. I'm not saying they're posting in this thread. But they do exist.

[emulatorloo]

48. Some seem to lack common sense tonight.

[whoneedstickets]

42. I'm sure if he had turned himself in, we would have treated him lawfully

but that wasn't going to happen

[AlabamaLibrul]

52. "We would have treated him lawfully" assumes

we did not treat him lawfully when he allegedly and as far as anyone can reasonably infer that he refused to turn himself in. Are you okay with that?

[whoneedstickets]

53. It implies nothing of the sort.

I said, if he had surrendered we would have treated him lawfully : i.e. tried him

I don't think his death was unlawful if their first mission was live capture and he was killed. That would be the same for any murder suspect with a grand jury indictment.

[backscatter712]

54. Osama went down shooting. What were our guys supposed to do?

Osama came out with a pistol, so our Navy SEALS took him out.

[renate]

58. well, I sincerely and deeply disagree with you, but....

I admire you for your sticking your neck out to express your opinion, knowing how unpopular it'd be. And for being a liberal in Alabama... wow. That's gotta be tough.

[crickets]

59. Good on you. I don't either.

But I don't think OBL would have gotten a fair trial. It's what I would have wished for, with all the lengthy, detailed testimony in the world, but he wouldn't have gotten it. We are no longer civilized enough for another Nuremburg. (Of course, given Operation Paperclip, that was a bit lacking as well.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2520695

[Nye Bevan]

60. Yes. Read him his Miranda rights and pay for a public defender (nt)

[mfcorey1]

61. He refused to surrender and chose to fight. Killed in the fight. Case closed.

[davidthegnome]

62. Neither do I, but this wasn't one

When bullets are flying, you don't try to stun or knock out your target to take him in for trial. You shoot to kill to protect yourself and those who are with you. Had Osama dropped his weapons and turned himself over I really think he would have been taken alive. He was not the sort, however, to let himself be taken alive. From my understanding, his bodyguards once had orders to kill him rather than allow him to be captured, if it came down to that.

Could we have instead subdued him with our modern weapons and abilities? Perhaps, but it would have increased the risk of casualties on our side. I, for one, would rather have OBL dead than one of our people dead or maimed for life.

Had he wanted to turn himself in for trial, he could have done so. He could have turned himself over to more neutral parties than the US. There were many ways he could have gone about surrendering. Though he still probably would have ended up dead, he'd have been given a trial first.

(Edited for spelling/grammar)

[treestar]

64. This is a different context.

And he resisted arrest.

[geminifemini]

65. Try to visualize the consequences of holding OBL prisoner.

I truly believe the consequence of taking him prisoner would have ignited terrorist response and demands for his release and frankly not worth the resources required to manage his custody.
Enough blood and money has been spent on this murderer.
I'm glad he's fish food.