While SOME spew hate at Obama, Bernie Sanders tells us WHY we should support Obama and this bill

[Liberation Angel]

The Sander press release hits the main points:

-- A $10 billion investment in community health centers, expected to go to $14 billion when Congress completes work on health care reform legislation, was included in a final series of changes to the Senate bill unveiled today.

-- The provision... would provide primary care for 25 million more Americans.... (with language broadening coverage in response to rural needs where the clinics can be the sole local health resource for communities.)

-- (This) will help bring about a revolution in primary health care in America and create new or expanded health centers in an additional 10,000 communities.

-- The provision would also provide loan repayments and scholarships through the National Health Service Corps to create an additional 20,000 primary care doctors, dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and mental health professionals.

-- Very importantly, Sanders also said the provision would save Medicaid tens of billions of dollars by keeping patients out of emergency rooms and hospitals by providing primary care when then needed it.

-- The investment would more than pay for itself by saving Medicaid $23 billion over five years on reduced emergency room use and hospital costs, according to a study conducted by George Washington University.

-- Sanders is also working with Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) to improve language already in the bill to provide waivers for states that want to provide comprehensive, affordable health care and curb rapidly-rising costs for money-making private health insurance companies. The waivers could clear the way for a state-run, s1ngle-payer system.

-- Sanders has worked with House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) to include $14 billion in the House version of the legislation. (Which had already been done.)

The system of Federally Qualified Health Centers began four decades ago under pioneering legislation by the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. Community health centers now provide primary health care, dental care, mental health counseling and low-cost prescription drugs for about 20 million Americans. Open to everyone, the centers care for patients covered by Medicaid, Medicare and private insurance as well as those who have no insurance.

In Vermont, eight (FQHC) health centers and 40 satellite offices provide primary health care to more than 100,000 patients regardless of their ability to pay. Sanders said that with the additional health care funding it was very likely that new centers would be established in Addison County, Bennington County and perhaps Windham County VT.


MORE AT:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/152525/71

[Laelth]

1. At what cost?

Sure, there may be some nuggets of good in this bill. But at what cost are we purchasing these goodies? That is the question few are willing to honestly address.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Skittles]

2. huge cost

instead of truly reforming health care, we will be paying tax dollars to subsidize the very corporations that cause all the problems

[Liberation Angel]

3. Sanders addresses that: costs will come down overall.

the poor will get care and we all have to pay into it. While I am pissed it is not a single payer or a fair public option, but it is pretty close.

[Milo_Bloom]

8. Costs will not come down, nor is it close to a public option.

There are no real cost controls in this bill, costs will not come down at all.

It also does nothing to imrpove the level of HEALTH CARE, which is the real problem.

[The Wielding Truth]

59. Can things be brought back to sanity in the house?

[GreenPartyVoter]

61. They can, but will the Senate vote for it if they do? *sigh*

[Oregone]

10. Individually, but what about per capita costs

Why is that not important anymore?


Having the government cut a check to "lower" individual costs doesn't actually limit the country's total expenditure (nor promote lowering it).

[Laelth]

13. LOL.

I am not talking about the sticker price for the bill.

I'm talking about a massive new tax on the uninsured, and the anger and resentment that will cause.

I'm talking about strengthening the health insurance cabal and enriching them with Federal dollars (which this bill will do).

I'm talking about setting a precedent that allows the Federal government to order people to buy a product from a private corporation (a very dangerous precedent indeed).

I'm talking about the real costs of this disastrous piece of legislation.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[tridim]

19. There is NO massive new tax on the unisured.

Quit lying.

[Laelth]

62. It's a back-door tax (the money goes straight to the insurance companies).

But people will be mad about it all the same. It doesn't matter how much angry lipstick you try to put on this pig. It's still a pig.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[phleshdef]

38. Massive new tax? You mean the 2% tax on people above 150% of poverty that don't get insurance?

Which is subsidized for people within 400% of the poverty level?

Oh my, thats SOOOOO massive.

Perhaps you should find out whats actually in the bill before you run your mouth.

[Laelth]

63. Nope. That's not the one I mean, and you know it.

I mean the mandate to purchase insurance. It will be perceived as a massive new tax, and the Democratic Party will be punished for it. Ignore this warning at your peril.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[phleshdef]

68. I just described the mandate and the tax charged if you don't comply, so yea it WAS the one you mean

Read the bill, learn the facts, THEN run your fucking mouth.

[Laelth]

74. You are very rude.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Undercurrent]

4. Nuggets?

This HCR Bill: 45,000,000 Get CHC-Single-Payer Vermont Health Care

45,000,000 get CHC-single-payer care =vs.= 3,000,000 P.O. tickets ??? -- Cummon folks.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Ted Kennedy's existing CHC program expands along lines developed by Bernie Sanders and Ben Cardin.

The single best thing to happen for America's working poor since food stamps:

-- 14,000 nationwide Community Health Clinics

-- Expand CHC capabilities to match VHA technology

-- 45,000,000 people served

-- $$$$$ to attract 20,000 primary care physicians, nurses, etc.

-- Drugs at VHA prices

-- Dental care

-- Patient billing scaled to income

-- No profit motive.

-- 40% saving for chronic care, 1/5th the cost for ER.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/152525/71

[Laelth]

15. Yup. Nuggets when compared to the cost. See post #13 above. n/t

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[OregonBlue]

43. Sanders better be careful or Jane Hamsher will come after him again.

[grantcart]

48. reduced cost

the bill starts us on the path of changing from "fee for services" to "incentives based on outcomes" which have shown huge savings in Europe.

Also the bill promotes preventative care in a number of ways also saving money.


Finally by taking people out of the emergency room and into regular care more savings.


The savings are huge.

[Laelth]

64. Those aren't the costs I'm referring to.

See Post #13 above.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Milo_Bloom]

5. all things that could have been done without selling us out.

Democrats have gotten their last dime and vote out of me.

[kestrel91316]

6. Community health centers around here are for people with ZERO assets.

You have to be basically homeless to use them. I have a small, struggling business. They would laugh at me if I showed up there.

Not only would an illness bankrupt me right now, being forced to pay for medical "insurance" probably will also. Some "tax credit" down the road, when I didn't make enough in 2008 to pay any income taxes (but plenty of double FICA) and not enough this year to pay for insurance, is not going to help at all.

And yet if I make enough to pay for the roof over my head and keep the lights on, I make too much to qualify for the expanded Medicaid.

I am gonna be one of the 15 million who STILL won't have insurance.

[Recursion]

12. Umm... no, they won't laugh at you

Soup kitchens won't laugh at you if you go there for a meal, either (try it some time).

[kestrel91316]

22. Ok, they won't laugh. But they will say to go elsewhere. Their services are

for the truly penniless.

[Recursion]

24. No, they're not

http://bphc.hrsa.gov/about/

They are mandated to serve everybody, and have fees set based on ability to pay.

[kestrel91316]

30. The problem is, if you have ANY assets whatsoever (my small business

is an asset) you are deemed able to pay in full.

[Recursion]

33. OK, that does suck

OTOH, have you talked to the billing person at your local FQHC? The ones I know are very good at bending rules to help patients.

[kestrel91316]

36. It's a long bus ride away. I have only read what they say on websites.

[kestrel91316]

34. I am waiting to see a doctor anyway until AFTER this law passes.

If they find anything not perfect, then I'm in the "high risk pool" which is gonna be even more expensive. I simply can't afford to do ANYTHING that is gonna make it cost one fricking penny more than absolutely necessary.

[tridim]

17. And the bill will make them much better and much more accessible.

You should really be celebrating. This bill is tailor made for people like you and me.

[kestrel91316]

25. They will just provide way better care for those they already serve.

You have to be Medicaid-qualified to get care at them. I have checked out their website. There is a whole screening process. I don't qualify.

They do not serve the "community". They serve the homeless, unemployed, and completely destitute only.

[Recursion]

26. I really think you're thinking of something else

FQHC's can't turn people away, period. They just send you a bill if according to their formula you are able to pay it (and, yes, if you're rich on paper but poor in fact you can get screwed by that, but that's true of just about everything).

[tridim]

31. That's may be what they are today.. The status quo sucks.

Sanders' ammendment changes that and makes them available for tens of millions more average people all across the country.

Read the bill.

[kestrel91316]

35. The bill is 2000+ pages of boilerplate. I'm not capable of understanding

it even if I were motivated to read it. I tried to read the amendment, and they lost me after about 50 pages.

[tridim]

42. Then why should I even bother talking to you?

:eyes:

Gawd almighty that's weak sauce.

[MadMaddie]

55. Remember this is not the final bill

This bill was passed to get it out of the Senate and to get it to conference with the House.

The House Bill specifically calls out small businesses and the plan to help small businesses with the the health exchange. That was part of the argument about why isn't the exchange open to everyone.

What would really be nice is if we got both bills posted on DU maybe in a new section that is specifally for bills so DU members can link to them and read them. I was trying to find the text for both bills but the computer I am on is kind of slow.

I don't think small buisnesses are being left out. I will continue to find the text to the bills.

[AuntPatsy]

7. Kicking so that people get the chance to read it, hopefully some will not simply

turn up their noses and ignore it, this is a thread that could encourage real debate and a valuable discussion...

[Recursion]

9. I'm a big fan of CHC's

I wonder why there wasn't more hullabaloo about this?

[kestrel91316]

18. Why? They severely restrict who they will serve. I can't go to them here.

I am technically above the federal poverty level (well, in 2008 I wasn't, but I own a business with severely depreciated assets and an income way down from prior years, so I am considered rich).

[Recursion]

21. "FQHCs provide their services to all persons regardless of ability to pay"

It's just that if you can afford to go to a doctor, it probably won't save you any money to go to a health center; they charge on a sliding scale. I'm not sure what you're thinking about, but they can't turn people away for being too rich; they'll just send you a bill.

[kestrel91316]

27. Exactly my point. And right now I have a whole stack of bills not getting paid.

In this state it's a crime to obtain services you don't intend to pay for.

[Recursion]

29. OK, if there's a disparity between what the formula says you can afford and what you actually can...

...then, yeah, you'll get stuck with a bill you can't pay, though they have people whose job it is to assess what you can afford to pay, so it couldn't hurt to talk to them.

[niceypoo]

11. The title of your thread negates any meaning it might contain

Most people dont bother reading angry posts. I suggest you edit the title.

[kestrel91316]

14. We shall see how good this bill is. All we have to do is look at how many

bankruptcies due to medical expenses in both insured and uninsured there are after it passes, compared to before.

I doubt that little statistic will improve.

[AuntPatsy]

16. Kicking so that people get the chance to read it, hopefully some will not simply

turn up their noses and ignore it, this is a thread that could encourage real debate and a valuable discussion...I hope for once not to be disappointed.

[ipaint]

20. Lipstick on a pig.

Honestly, this is what passes for socialist these days.

[Liberation Angel]

28. You're saying Bernie Sanders is a socialist pig with lipstick?

Or are community health centers socialist?

Or not?

You sayin' Sanders is a bs socialist?

just askin'.

[ipaint]

39. No your saying that.

I'm saying the bill is a pig and bernie isn't a socialist.

[Liberation Angel]

47. well okay then

that's clearer.

got it

Bernie is not a socialist

okay

whatever

[Recursion]

23. Since a lot of people don't seem to understand how CHCs work

from http://bphc.hrsa.gov/about/

For more than 40 years, HRSA-supported Health Centers have provided comprehensive, culturally competent, quality primary health care services to medically underserved communities and vulnerable populations.

Health centers are community-based and patient-directed organizations that serve populations with limited access to health care. These include low income populations, the uninsured, those with limited English proficiency, migrant and seasonal farmworkers, individuals and families experiencing homelessness, and those living in public housing.
Health Center Program Fundamentals

* Located in or serve a high need community (designated Medically Underserved Area or Population). Find MUAs and MUPs
* Governed by a community board composed of a majority (51% or more) of health center patients who represent the population served. More about health center governance
* Provide comprehensive primary health care services as well as supportive services (education, translation and transportation, etc.) that promote access to health care.
* Provide services available to all with fees adjusted based on ability to pay.
* Meet other performance and accountability requirements regarding administrative, clinical, and financial operations.

Who Health Centers Serve

* People of all ages. Approximately 36 percent of patients in 2008 were children (age 19 and younger); about 7 percent were 65 or older.
* People without and with health insurance. The proportion of uninsured patients of all ages was approximately 38% in 2008, while the number of uninsured patients increased from 4 million in 2001 to over 6.5 million in 2008.
* People of all races and ethnicities. In 2008, 28 percent of health center patients were African-American and 33 percent were Hispanic/Latino--more than twice the proportion of African-Americans and over two times the proportion of Hispanics/Latinos reported in the overall U.S. population.
* Special populations. In 2008, health centers served more than 834,000 migrant and seasonal farm workers and their families; nearly 934,000 individuals experiencing homelessness; and nearly 157,000 residents of public housing.

[shireen]

32. this is a very complex situation, and i understand why he did it.

This bill sucks. But this is what i said in another thread, and i'm posting it here as well.


i adore Sanders and i understand why he's doing it. He secured some very important funding for community healthcare. The progressives in the Senate recognize the very complex dynamics in play; there are good things in that bill that will benefit some people. But overall, it sucks and they know it. The consequences of not voting for it, however, are quite damaging to the Obama administration. It's only the first year, and if they want to get a lot of good things done in the next 3 years, they need to back up Obama right now by voting in favor of this shitty bill.

On the other hand, we can afford to scream with outrage because we're not casting votes in Congress. But we do cast them in elections, and that's where we make them accountable for their actions. Our angry comments are sending them a message that we are furious at the way this has all turned out, and unless there are more progressive reforms, they should worry about their futures in Congress. That's how we put pressure on Congress to implement more progressive changes.


Folks, we have different roles to play here. Our elected officials have their 'game' to play. We have ours. The outrage we are seeing here in DU and DKos, on Countdown, Ed, and Rachel are GOOD GOOD things. We should keep up the good fight and continue to put pressure on the Congress critters.

[Liberation Angel]

54. But we need to be careful; not to alienate the future progressives

and tarnishing EVERY effort for change in a Naderish clusterf*ck of crash and burn as hppened in 2000.

[shireen]

71. yeah, i hope we have the wisdom and maturity to strike a balance. nt

[Cha]

37. The Bill is a foundation on which to build

over the years and here's to it coming out even stronger when the Senate and the House get together in Conference.

Thanks Liberation Angel!

[paulk]

40. the characterization of opposition to this bill as "hate"

directed specifically at Obama

makes me wonder who you shills are really working for.

We are on the same side, you know. We just want a better bill, and think that with control of all three branches of government, we should have gotten one.

[Liberation Angel]

50. I said SOME here spewing hate ... and they are

calling Obama a venomous untrustworthy snake and a liar, just like Bush, and spreading lies about him is spreading hate.

There is a healthy group here who delight in hating Obama and especially as they attempt to derail this (or ANY progressive) health care bill.

as always I ask:

Qui Bono?

[jgraz]

41. Unreccing for the childish characterization of political criticism as "hate".

What are you, 8?

[Liberation Angel]

45. SOME people calling Obama a snake and a liar sound like freepers

is what I was responding to with this post.

Specifically lies told about Obama and name calling which denigrate him.

[jgraz]

46. You mean when people pointed out specifically where he told an easily-disprovable lie?

That must have been HORRIBLE for you. :eyes:

[Liberation Angel]

49. As I established in another thread, that claim is a lie. Obama did NOT lie.

He ran on universal care and NOT the "public option" - in fact I have not seen ANY clip where he uses this term until AFTER he was inaugurated.

He did talk about public plans and and public health care but that is a generic term. It is not a specific plan (which in itself may have many different interpreatations.

To lie about Obama and spread that lie HAS to be challenged: the claim simply is false.

[jgraz]

51. He used the specific language on his campaign site, and he pointed to that site in every speech

The only reason he feels comfortable denying it now is that he knows credulous people like yourself will come to his defense. But the only way to view his comment is that it was meant to deceive -- i.e. spin -- about what was promised during the campaign.

[Liberation Angel]

53. NO he didn't. That is spin. He used it on his site this past summer

Not on the campaign site.

That is false

If you have a link or screenshot from back then i will reconsider this, but so far I hve not seen ONE place where he used the term "public option" during the campaign.

[jgraz]

65. You might want to take up your beef with Ezra Klein and all the other journalists who agree with me.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/yes_obama_did_campaign_on_the.html

Oy. I'll defend the argument that the health-care bill that looks likely to pass is structurally similar to the health-care proposal released by the Obama campaign. But it's impossible to defend Obama's statement that "I didn't campaign on the public option." For one thing, it was in his campaign plan, which is to say, he campaigned on it. The proposal assured voters that Obama's plan will "establish a new public insurance program available to Americans who neither qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP nor have access to insurance through their employers."

And here's the link to that campaign plan: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf


Unless you think Ezra Klein and the D.C. press corps just wrote this up themselves...

[Liberation Angel]

67. When you say public plan that is not the same as saying "public option"

Klein and others are saying that while Obama did not use the term "public option" that is what he meant.

Calling someone a LIAR and SNAKE because they did not say what you thought they meant is bullsh*t.

This is a tempest in a teapot and only motivates the haters.

Because this reeks so much of the same sorts of attacks on Al Gore it feels and smells of Rove, or Satan, or both...

[jgraz]

72. Oh yay. Another "meaning of IS" president.

This is gonna go well. :eyes:

[phleshdef]

73. Can dispute that the dropped PO in the Reid bill was anything like the public plan Obama proposed?

[golddigger]

52. Obama: Let me be clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J5v45VDcUM

[Liberation Angel]

56. This video is September 2009 NOT during the campaign.

The claim is that he lied about qhat he campaigned on PRIOR to the election NOT what he has supported since as he has tried to get reform.

[jgraz]

66. "I am not gay, I never HAVE been gay"

I love my wife!! :D

[quiet.american]

44. Thanks for posting this; Sanders' amendment is one of the best parts of the bill. nt

[NYC_SKP]

57. kick and rec.. nt

[jeanpalmer]

58. Bernie's on the right track

in supporting Community Health Centers. But supporting a bloated insurance system that will cost probably $2 trillion over ten years in return for $10-$14 billion for Community Health Centers doesn't make any sense. It's like paying $20,000 for a car to get the $200 CD player. Socialists aren't very good at cost-benefit analysis. It would be better to just buy the CD system by itself. And that's what should have been done here.

But the numbers Sanders gives here, if true, are astounding. If it's true that for $1.0-$1.4 billion ($10-$14 billion/10 years) per year, we can provide primary care to 25 million people, WTH are we doing spending $250 billion a year on the mandate system in 2014 to provide complete care to 30 million people? Let's just go completely with the Community Health Center concept, expand it to include more than primary care, shitcan the bloated mandate system, and get everyone reasonably priced healthcare for a fraction of what Obamacare will cost us.

CHC's are the way to go, but they are privately run and therefore still have the incentive to run up the bill on the government's part of the funding. So to change that, along with providing funding to CHC's, they ought to create a parallel system funded and run by the government -- in pilot project form. That would elminate all profit incentive. It would mean patients and taxpayers would be paying only for healthcare -- not for junk insurance policies, not for exchanges, not for million dollar salaries and bonuses, not for unnecessary paperwork and bureaucracies, not for profit.

This would be something like UK's system where everyone gets free healthcare at clinics, you just walk in and get it, and its paid for with taxes. UK pays on average $2,900 per person. Obamacare's mandates are going to cost us at least $7,000. A CHC type system is what we should have been working toward from day one of HCR. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of bought off losers leading us.

[juno jones]

60. Will these clinics be administered by the govt or by faith-based orgs?

We already have a couple in my neck of the woods and one is faith-based.

I really am not into more money going into 'faith-based' charities.

PS: dental care in both are emergencies only. you'll still lose your teeth, but at least they get removed promptly. It costs the same as a private dentist but they let you make payments. Isn't that sweet? And good luck getting vicodin after extractions, after all, every poor person is a junkie just waiting to happen...

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. kick and recommend

[Hekate]

70. Kick and Rec