Oh, the irony

[ProSense]

Assertions:

If this bill passes I'm done with the Democrats.

If this bill passes the Democratic Party is doomed.


Doesn't the latter make the former irrelevant?


Here's my prediction: Some people are going to be disappointed when the bill passes and strengthens the party.

[HuckleB]

1. When a little time passes, and health care coverage is improved, your prediction will come true.

[yourout]

2. I wouldn't be disappointed but I might have a heart attach from the shock.

[Hutzpa]

3. Weren't those the same folks

screaming during the primaries?

[angee_is_mad]

7. you better believe they were not screaming for Obama

many of them have said that on here.

[Hutzpa]

33. Whats next

for them climate bill on how Obama will turn everyone into toast./
appologies for my mumble jumble.

[goldcanyonaz]

56. Not true, many were some of his biggest supporters.

Upon my return to DU I was very surprised how some had done a complete 180.

It's mind boggling.

[Hutzpa]

63. Yeah like Travis Smiley

who still lives by his primaries blues, according to him on MTP Obama is not doing enough and has never done
enough in his eyes, has been a vocal critique of him since he came on the scene, explain that, and there are
many more like him out there.

[levander]

4. I bet you think it's going to strengthen Medicare too.

How much are they slashing it? By $500 billion?

[ProSense]

9. Yes,

cutting the program enacted during the Bush administration will strengthen Medicare.

Questions?

[levander]

26. Democrats against Medicare, Republicans for it

Never thought I'd see the day.

And, just for the record. They're not just eliminating programs Bush threw in there (as if somehow helping the elderly is a bad thing because it was Bush who did it). I was reading the Center for Medicare Service's analysis of the plan. Here's a quick quote from it explaining what the bill will do:

substantially reduce the growth of Medicare’s payment rates for most services (relative to the growth rates projected under current law);

Now, Doctor's are already complaining about how little they're paid for Medicare, and when their costs go up....

ProSense, out of curiosity, how many doctors stopping providing services for the elderly are you okay with in order to get this bill through?

[Garam_Masala]

49. Yes...I can just visualize the seniors sprinting to the voting booths

eager to reward those who just cut their benefits by $500 BILLION.
Seniors must be feeling good about making this sacrifice so that those poor
undocumented immigrants without insurance can be subsidized.

:sarcasm:

:rofl:

[Joe Bacon]

5. Yeah, that NAFTA stuff sure strengthened the Democratic Party

Yep, look at all those good paying jobs NAFTA and GATT created! :sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

8. Perhaps the poster supported NAFTA and has personally profited

from globalization. Who knows?

[treestar]

13. Oh for F's sake!

This really is uncalled for.

Pure ad hominem and based on speculation.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Well, do you support NAFTA?

yea or nay?

[treestar]

62. NAFTA is too damn complicated for me to discuss

I'd have to read a lot more to have an opinion.

And generalizations demonizing it repeated a brazillion times do not constitute reading.

Not to mention that NAFTA has nothing to do with this post. It's just another demon, like "insurance companies" "corporations" and others.

[ProSense]

17. That's just plain old-fashioned stupid. n/t

[dave29]

18. Maybe you have profited from attacking Democrats?

I mean, how could we possibly know?

:shrug:

[prolesunited]

19. She spends enough time doing it

I'm hoping she gets paid for it.

[IndianaGreen]

21. I only attack DLC pukes

I love my Indiana Democrats, except for DLC puke and health industry whore Evan Bayh.

[ProSense]

30. "except for DLC puke and health industry whore Evan Bayh." Didn't you vote for Bayh?

You need to take ownership of sending him to the Senate.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Yes, but no more!

[ProSense]

10. Health care is not NAFTA.

It's not Afghanistan or Iraq. It's health care.

[IndianaGreen]

16. But it is being sold by the same characters from DLC casting

[dave29]

23. You mean the 60 Senators planning to vote in the affirmative?

I did not realize the entire caucus was so corrupt. If only Kucinich could run the entire Government we would be saved from the death panels, NAFTA and world peace would have been achieved by like March of this past year. At the latest

[Jamastiene]

29. Don't forget CAFTA and SAFTA.

My home town dried up AFTA all that. Now, our major employer is Wal Mart. Aren't we lucky?

[HughMoran]

48. NAFTACARE

Gotta get me some of that

:silly:

[gravity]

6. I am excited

After all the doom and gloom subsides and people realize that the bill isn't all that bad and maybe actually benefits them, things will be looking good for the Democrats.

[griffi94]

11. i seem to remember

the right wing saying the same thing about the war in iraq.
and the first year they were mostly right...then reality reared its head and bit them in the ass.
at the moment a lot of progressives are feeling pretty raw. let that deep feeling of unease and dissatisfaction creep into the mor voters and indies and it will be the same kind of bloodbath the gop just experienced.

[ProSense]

12. "the right wing saying the same thing about the war in iraq." Repeat:

health care isn't war. Try another analogy.

[griffi94]

20. uh no

it's the same...the right wing wanted to get their war on. they marketed it and sold wrapped in a bunch of crap about wmd, they pointed out all the good that would come from regime change.
anybody with any kind of objective thought could see that there was at least a 50/50 chance of it going to hell. and hell is where it went and now we can't get the monkey off our back.

pass this bill and make it mandatory for everybody to buy , under penalty of law, private insurance from for profit companies whose function is not to provide care but to make a profit. you can keep saying that it will be amended but there's absolutely no reason to think the votes to make it right will ever be there.
then let the companies who are making the profit write the regulations and buy up a few more senators from both parties and we'll have this monkey on our backs.

i've seen the arguments that say that nobody knows if this will be all that bad. i can't read the future but i'm reasonably sure that the sun will rise tomorrtow because it always has.
putting private industry in charge of public service isn't the answer.
this is just more of that free market crap with a different wrapper on it.

[ProSense]

22. "it's the same..." Not even remotely. n/t

[treestar]

14. They are so relentlessly negative

It is hard to believe this is Democratic Underground.

[Parker CA]

27. Pessimism must have been sold on a heavy discount recently, the amount displayed is just ridiculous.

[davidpdx]

46. I think you should put that in your signature line, it's perfect

Very quoteable. I may use it as well.

[Parker CA]

57. Haha, thanks. It's truly mindblowing sometimes.

[Pirate Smile]

28. It is unbelievably pathetic around here. Any evidence that the economy is getting better is

shunned. The largest expansion of the social safety net since Medicare is treated with disgust.

Matt Taibbi, a hero here, said the other day to Kill the Bill and wait 8 years AND people here cheer him. How many uninsured die per year? Let's wait. It's unconscionable. It's better for tens of millions of people to go without insurance then let insurance companies gain all those new customers.

The priority is punishing insurance companies instead of expanding access to health care for millions of people.

Sure, I'd prefer the insurance companies got what they deserve but that isn't exactly an option here - and just yelling "Single Payer!" doesn't make it any closer to an actual reality.

Kill the Bill. HCR can wait. Start Over. That's disgraceful.

[davidpdx]

44. How many people die per year because of lack of health insurance times 8?

Can Tabbi really advocate that many people dying? That's exactly the arguement people should be using to shoot him down.

[treestar]

59. Heck the same people don't want anyone in Afghanistan to die and

rightly so, but then just switch off to it's OK for Americans. Weirdly like the right wing, who doesn't care how far we go into debt to kill people in wars but try to help Americans and they're screaming how we can't afford it.

[paulk]

45. you act as if getting health insurance somehow equates

to getting healthcare. It hasn't in the past and it won't with this piece of crap that's being foisted on us.

[Pirate Smile]

52. It equates to access and there are a lot of other very good things in the Bill

which people are totally willing to just drop. Yes, a lot of people actually are going to be helped by the Bill. Acting like they wont is not dealing with the reality of what is in the Bill.

Here is the statement Bernie Sanders put out:

$10 Billion More for Community Health Centers will Revolutionize Care

WASHINGTON, December 19 – A $10 billion investment in community health centers, expected to go to $14 billion when Congress completes work on health care reform legislation, was included in a final series of changes to the Senate bill unveiled today.

The provision, which would provide primary care for 25 million more Americans, was requested by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.).

He said the additional resources will help bring about a revolution in primary health care in America and create new or expanded health centers in an additional 10,000 communities. The provision would also provide loan repayments and scholarships through the National Health Service Corps to create an additional 20,000 primary care doctors, dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and mental health professionals.

Very importantly, Sanders also said the provision would save Medicaid tens of billions of dollars by keeping patients out of emergency rooms and hospitals by providing primary care when then needed it.

Sanders has worked with House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) to include $14 billion in the House version of the legislation.

Sanders is also working with Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) to improve language already in the bill to provide waivers for states that want to provide comprehensive, affordable health care and curb rapidly-rising costs for money-making private health insurance companies. The waivers could clear the way for a state-run, single-payer system.

For the health centers, the $14 billion in the bill that the House of Representatives approved on Nov. 7 would increase the number of centers from 20 million to 45 million over the next five years.

The investment would more than pay for itself by saving Medicaid $23 billion over five years on reduced emergency room use and hospital costs, according to a study conducted by George Washington University.

The system of Federally Qualified Health Centers began four decades ago under pioneering legislation by the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy. Community health centers now provide primary health care, dental care, mental health counseling and low-cost prescription drugs for about 20 million Americans. The centers offer basic services like prenatal care, childhood immunizations and cancer screenings. Open to everyone, the centers care for patients covered by Medicaid, Medicare and private insurance as well as those who have no insurance.

Dan Hawkins, senior vice president of the National Association of Community Health Centers, testified before Congress earlier this year that the cost of care at health centers is 41 percent less than what is spent to care for patients elsewhere. The savings would grow if health centers were expanded to serve more patients, according to Hawkins.

In Vermont, eight health centers and 40 satellite offices provide primary health care to more than 100,000 patients regardless of their ability to pay. Sanders said that with the additional health care funding it was very likely that new centers would be established in Addison County, Bennington County and perhaps Windham County.

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=30b2a415-4ade-4367-af7d-4c3306e31b58

[paulk]

55. this bill virtually guarantees that we won't ever see single payer

Mandates without any sort of public option will entrench the insurance industry even farther. That is my main objection to this legislation. There are no mechanisms to provide competition and control cost. The language to provide waivers is just more political blah, blah, blah. It's not even lipstick on a pig, because it's not going to happen.

Passing this legislation is a political victory only. A Pyrrhic one, that could just as easily cost the Democrats votes as gain them, imho.

[ima_sinnic]

54. I've been uninsured for at least 15 years. I don't want "insurance," I want HEALTH CARE

shilling for the insurance companies and celebrating the big profits they will now be legally extorting from us doesn't really impress me.

[treestar]

60. You don't want insurance?

what if you get sick? You'd rather NOT have insurance?

It's weird to hate an abstract entity (insurance companies) that much.

So you'd just rather go to the ER and have a huge bill and then have to declare bankruptcy than have an insurance company pay your medical bills.

[Aramchek]

24. Obama is going to get Healthcare Reform Bill and a Climate Change agreement all in the same week

and yet the haters are still about to piss their britches.

They are shameless.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Two great examples of Obama's accomplishments

Generations will be speaking of this momentous occasion.

[Aramchek]

40. and they won't even know you existed.

[Arkana]

25. Ho, the ironing

[ShortnFiery]

34. Underestimate the base of the democratic party at your peril.

It's not going to be pretty and it may take a generation ... but we will rid our beloved party of these CORPORATE Democrats.

No more voting for "moderates" = "conservatives" = "Blue Dogs = DLCers.

I'm voting for Progressive and Pro-Choice Democrats ONLY in the future.

[ProSense]

35. "Underestimate the base"?

The OP isn't about the Democratic Party base. It's about people who are convinced the bill is going to be cause the party's downfall.

[ShortnFiery]

36. The bill is a HUGE give-away of our middle-class tax dollars to the upper 1%.

It's more FASCISM wrapped up in a "populist package. The "very poor" and the "very rich" will benefit (the filthy rich much more!) from this travesty of a bill. However, the Middle Class will barely be able to afford health care and "Heaven forbid" they get a SERIOUS ILLNESS such as Cancer or Heart Disease. If so, they will have to *declare bankruptcy* to afford the premiums.

Economic FASCISM and wet kisses to the Insurance Cartel and Big Pharma. :puke:

[ProSense]

37. Utter nonsense. n/t

[ShortnFiery]

38. The unvarnished truth. eom

[NYC_SKP]

39. *snort* If "the base" hates Obama so much, why bother with them...

the base, that poster is among the few here that overestimate the strength of their fringe contingent of angry absolutists.

I can't even reply to them anymore.

the base of the democratic party is not composed of wingnuts.

[Splinter Cell]

41. You said it!

:toast:

[cliffordu]

50. YES WE AREN'T! !!111 !!111!! !1!!

ELEVENS!!!1111!!!!

[paulk]

42. didn't you also predict that this bill would have a public option?

maybe your predictions aren't worth all that much...

[depakid]

43. Through the Looking Glass

:crazy:

Once upon a time I recall a poster who was ever so gnmg ho on the public option....

[HughMoran]

47. Irony abounds of late

So does hypocrisy - it would be funny in other circumstances.

[shotten99]

51. My thoughts exactly.

Once this bill is passed, the door is open and it won't close for the next 15-20 years again.

[Armstead]

53. It will strengthen the DLC Centrist Corporate Wing and thus...

further embed the Con Artists who serve corporations but claim they are actually Democrats.

The slicker version of Repubklicans.

[joshcryer]

58. Irony = mandates as evil (Krugman = satan incarnate) in primaries. Now = mandates = car insurance.

[ClarkUSA]

61. Oh, the Outrage.

Prediction Addendum:

After HCR is passed and signed into law, the FauxRage Failers will bitterly move on to another anti-Democratic Party/anti-Obama meme.