I will reluctantly venture to say this: Obama looks VERY smart (health care bill passage)

[Liberation Angel]

I have just reread the Huffington Post piece with Al Franken's perspective on this bill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/19/franken-dems-unified-behi_n_398183.html

As I look at various provisions it appears that MANY of the items I support are in this bill and that it accomplishes many things I never really dreamed were possible.

IF what is happening is that Obama and his team have actually outmaneuvered the republicans and the centrist dems to get some dramatic changes made that actually amount to REAL PROGRESS then Obama may have accomplished a health care and political coup.

We progressives who have been screaming and shouting that the bill is NOT progressive may wake up to find that the final bill (even with the mandates and withour the public option) is awesomely progressive in MANY respects.

AGAIN, I am relying on Franken's perspective in the article linked and as someone who is way too naive on the details. I am only just HOPING that I am right:

Obama MAY have just done a DAMN GOOD THING!

He MAY have actually gotten the reform that will take us on the road to BETTER and BETTER care for all of us.

I HOPE I am not mistaken...

I just felt with all the negativity here at DU that this needed to be said.

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. Mandates are political suicide

The other stuff, ok, some are debatably good, but mandates will destroy our party.

[Liberation Angel]

3. Basically, I see mandates as sucky but just like social security or medicaid

we all need to buy in to make it possible for EVERYONE to have coverage.

I do not like them but if the other provisions do what we want then i can live with it.

Same way i do with deductions on my earnings.

I am willing to pay more if it gets the job done.

[Armstead]

7. They are very different from real mandates like SS

They will also make it impossible to do anything down the like expansion of Medicare access or any form of single payer or even a public option.

It embeds the insurance industry into the system even deeper than it is now.

That's not progress, it's a step backward

[dkf]

15. 21 million will still have no health insurance and what percent of the 31 milion will feel

They are being coerced instead of helped? Worse how many paying exhorbitant premiums will still be priced out of health care? Democrats will own every gripe anyone will ever have about their health care coverage. It will be the monkey on our back forever.

[Cronus Protagonist]

22. The mandate is antithetic to our culture in this country

The numbers against that mandate will be well over these numbers. Every Republican, every fiscal conservative, every libertarian and a huge chunk of Democratics will unite against it.

Like I said, it's political suicide.

[NYC_SKP]

35. Many say the same of Federal Income Tax.

But we got it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. Yeah? Does the Federal Income Tax involve paying a company that's traded on the stock exchange?

Comparison invalid.

[Caretha]

27. The buy in for SS & medicaid

is not a buy into corporate "for profit" health care. There is a big difference. Educate yourself.

[Odin2005]

31. There is no comparison between Medicare and SS.

Forcing me to buy a product of a corporation is FASCISM. The ends do not justify the means.

[quakerboy]

41. SS and medicaid are done by the government

And though I have a lower assurance of this than I did 10 years ago, I still feel safe in assuming that the government will still be there for me in 10 years, and they will give me a fair return on my input, and take care of what they have promised me. The health insurance companies, not so much.

[dflprincess]

44. Give the DLC time.

They're next target will be Social Security and Medicare "reform". They've always had them in their sights and want them privatized just like Bush did.

And we'll all be working until we die.

[Phx_Dem]

5. ROLF. Liberal-moderates are the only Dems who get elected President.

Progressives can't even finish the Democratic primaries with a decent showing.

:rofl:

[Jamastiene]

40. And you think that is funny?

I take it you are against progressives then?

[depakid]

8. Democrats are going to lose and lose badly as people realize that insurers have them by the

short hairs.

Anyone -and I mean ANYONE who thinks that the health insurers won't keep pushing the envelope and abusing people with impunity is incredibly naive- and now, it's all on the Democrats.

Heck of a job.

[Liberation Angel]

19. I disagree - the republicans blocked every other option but this one

for decades, early a century, they have blocked proposal after proposal.

NOW we get SOMETHING which may actually kick the insurnce companies' asses.

Really it might.

THEY will keep fighting and so will we.

But that IS democracy, depakid!

[depakid]

23. They're not going to blame Republicans!

Sorry to say, the Democrats own this- and pretending that 60 votes are required.., or that Republicans wouldn't play ball... blah, blah, blah- ain't going to fly when the chickens keep coming home to roost.

[vaberella]

30. This is NOT the FINAL bill. Just let it pass and we get rid of it later.

You act like this is the end all and be all. For Gods' sakes.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

34. YES, this IS the FINAL bill for all practical purposes

The idea that this bill can be substantially altered in conference and reach cloture when it returns to the senate is nuts.,,, like flat earth nuts.

Period.

[Cronus Protagonist]

37. +60

That's how many votes we would need to pass anything substantially changed. In other words, no chance.

[still_one]

2. I don't know if he has or not, because I need to read it myself, but if it is as bad as

some are professing on DU, then I would hope that the intent is to amend it after it becomes law

[lamp_shade]

4. Your words unfortunately fall on deaf ears. I'm with you and give this a good K&R.

[villager]

6. Well, just read the article, and didn't get the same impression...

sounds like there are gaping loopholes, and the paragraphs about the insurance companies having the resources to "outgun" current, in many cases stronger, state anti-recission provisions, don't augur well for them being "brought to heal" anytime soon...

[Armstead]

9. me too. The message is "This is a bad bill but we have to pass it."

Why we have to pass a bad bill now i'm still trying to figure out.

[still_one]

10. I agree with you, except there was one thing he did say that gives me hope. They plan to

correct the inadequacies as they did for MediCare and Social Security later

[griffi94]

24. and nfta

don't forget nafta

[PurityOfEssence]

46. Cute pun there; kudos for the effort

Like an uncooperative dog being brought to heel, the parasites and opportunists who make unspendably huge fortunes allegedly providing health care while often simply providing what financially behooves them won't soon be brought to do what they purport, which is to heal.

It reminds me of the old Dorothy Parker quip when asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence: "you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

Politicians hankering for party unity, and especially new kids on the block like Franken, will say all sorts of thing in the wake of a mess like this, and they should. We civilians don't have to and absolutely shouldn't.

Dammit.

[doc03]

11. Oh another Obama is a genius post, The insurance companies

walk away with a windfall. Now the average middle class American will forced to buy insurance, our premiums will increase, employers health insurance costs will increase forcing some to fire employees or drop their insurance. Us Union members that have fought and in some cases died to get health care will now be taxed on our benefits. What a stroke of f----g genius, boy we got those Republicans right where we want them don't we.

[Liberation Angel]

16. BUT...

Doesn't the LIMIT on what gets used for nonmedical purposes kind of offset the increases and mean we ALL pay less?

I really don't know.

I mean i support the unions on this but isn't it possible that it could be better for everyone?

Honestly just asking.

The negative hype is killing me...

so i do not really trust it.

[Undercurrent]

12. K&R

Thanks for sticking your neck out. :hi:

[Liberation Angel]

20. I think it really might be a good thing here. REALLY good things.

So I appreciate the support.

This is not a naive kid here.

I know it ain't perfect.

I do NOT like mandates.

BUT

I am in a place where I want my kids to have a better system.

And this will be BETTER!

I hope...

[Vinnie From Indy]

42. This is not a naive kid here.

Just saying that does not make it true. I hope you are right, but I hope I win the lotto every week and that hasn;t worled out yet.

[izquierdista]

13. That 'medical loss ratio'

Considering that casinos make money even on slot machines that pay back 97%, I would hope that insurance companies could make do with 80%. Then again Obama may have done a damn stupid thing making everybody play at the AETNA and CIGNA casino. Shuffle up and deal!

[Liberation Angel]

17. But isn't that restriction to 15-20% profit/overhead revolutionary?

I mean, it may not be a casino but still restricting profits, even with DHS discretion, SEEMS like its HUGE .

[izquierdista]

21. Revolutionary?

I think you need to look that word up again. Revolutionary would be taking taking 15% off the height of insurance CEOs -- with a very sharp blade.

[NJmaverick]

14. The right is only capable of one dimensional and simplistic thinking

Throw numerous progressive measures at them all at once, they are only capable of latching on to one at a time. So it might have cost us the public option, for the time being, but many other good things got past.

[Laelth]

18. I also HOPE that you are not mistaken.

My gut tells me that you are.

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Hekate]

25. KnR, Liberation Angel. nt

[flamingdem]

26. If Franken is for it, then I'll have to take a closer look nt

[Hutzpa]

28. There you go

a very progressive man expressing his deepest thoughts with sincerity.

[Odin2005]

29. Mandates will DISTROY the Democratic Party.

This bill makes us SERFS of the insurance companies. "progressive" my ass.

[Cronus Protagonist]

49. Clearly, it's Fascism

It's a dream world for the corporatist.

[andym]

32. A very thorough pro-legislation analysis is here

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/19/816837/-The-Public-Option-Distraction-(Or,-Why-This-Bill-Should-Pass)

I found it quite informative.

[vaberella]

36. Oh God...that's long. But I'll check it out. n/t

[andym]

43. Here is a rebuttal

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/19/816961/-Why-This-Senate-Health-Bill-Should-Not-Pass

[Politicalboi]

33. My dream would be

Obama would use his signing statements and put Medicare for all in the bill. FU Republicons! It's a matter of national survival.
And then say "Happy Holidays to all"
I can dream can't I.

[Fire1]

39. Absolutely needed to be said and thank you.

[Egnever]

45. Thanks for posting that an interesting read.

[impik]

47. You're speaking to the lamps

No one wants to hear the truth.

[salguine]

48. Put down the crack pipe, and step back away from it.