There are some people who just don't want it to be Obama

[ProSense]

They are desperately fighting to prevent Obama from being the first President to enact universal health care.

They don't want him to be be credited with anything significant. There is an industry forming to distort every aspect of his Presidency.

The fact is, anyone else, and some of these critics would be cheering that person on as one of the most progressive Presidents ever. This opposition took root before Obama moved into the WH, and the distortions are flying fast and furious. No matter.

Fact: History will be written on results, not the noise of the day.






edited typos.

[NanceGreggs]

1. "History will be written on results ...

... not the noise of the day."

Amen.

[cliffordu]

6. Yep - Amen. And a K&R

[HowHasItComeToThis]

76. EVERYTHING IS SO SCRAMBLED THAT WE KNOW NOTHING

THIS HAS BEEN AN EXAMPLE OF HOW TO NOT TRUST CONGRESS... WAS THAT THE PURPOSE?

AND WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE RECS???

[IndianaGreen]

2. LieberCare is NOT universal health care

except in an Orwellian world in which war is peace.

[ProSense]

9. There is no such thing

Lieberman doesn't have a bill.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Lieberman is a de facto President

All he has to do is say "jump" and Obama will ask "how high?"

[ProSense]

OK,

absurdity noted.

[patrice]

21. That's silly.

about as silly as attributing objectivity to anyone who self-identifies as a "Green".

Actually, I should congratulate you on your honesty and I DO really like much of the Green platform, but, really now, Greens stand way too much to benefit from breaking up "the system" to trust them on any issues effecting same.

[Hekate]

31. That's just dumb. nt

[niceypoo]

94. At least he didn't before Obama handed him this one

[rwheeler31]

3. True and well stated.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Absolutely right.

K&R

[DJ13]

5. "universal health care"

Theres no universal health care in either the Senate or the House bills.

[ThomCat]

14. Right. Universal Health Care was taken off the table as the very first

sacrifice. It was never an option.

This OP is a fantasy.

[jbnow]

62. The only candidate that ran on univerersal (single payer) was Dennis K

Unless he won it was never really on the table at all.
I get that it is good to start negotiating with more but I doubt anyone would have done it...

It bothers me that the advocates for it were so left out though. Talk about helping the economy, helping make businesses more competitive....all of those things.

Sad

[ProSense]

15. You make the case well

The case in the OP that is.

There are countries that have had universal health care for decades that achieve coverage in the high 90 percent range.

This bill starts at about 96 percent, coming from about 83 percent.

It's universal health care. It's a start.

[DJ13]

18. So you think "universal" means less than everyone and

you're willing to advance this "universal" plan in a system that already has the highest per person cost in the industrialized world by forcing people to buy this expensive insurance for themselves, or get penalized by the government?

Really?

You seriously think that will sell?

lol

[ProSense]

24. It's you who does not understand universal health care.

You can read up here.

[DJ13]

32. Oh I understand it, but you seem to miss why it works in other countries

And why the version set to pass the Senate will be a failure of Biblical proportions.

Heres a clue.......

Other countries that use private insurance for UHC use non-profit insurers exclusively, and tightly regulate the costs of their health care system.

The current proposals in Congress (in either the Senate, or the House) fail to address the cost side sufficiently to protect those forced to participate in this scheme.

You're dooming those you're willing to force into the private insurance system to face costs comparable to 17% of their wages.

Good luck with the backlash in future elections.

[ProSense]

35. Oh, so now it's a matter of why it can't work?

Typical moving the goal post crap.

[DJ13]

36. Its always been why it wont work

Are you typically this dense?

[ProSense]

43. "Are you typically this dense?" Seriously, reread your original comment

You claimed it wasn't universal health care. Now, you're arguing it is, but it will not work.

Don't call people dense if you can't keep track of your own comments in a matter of a few minutes.

[DJ13]

48. Its NOT universal

And you're still dense.

But nice dodge on not answering my other post.

Bravo.

[ProSense]

55. It's universal health care.

No matter how much you nonsense you spew.

[clear eye]

103. Universal health insurance is NOT synonymous w/ universal health CARE

as the experience in Massachusetts and Tennessee have amply demonstrated.

Some people were skeptical of a Presidential candidate who had only Rubin & co. as economic advisors. Or they preferred Hillary Clinton. Translating this into their wanting themselves and everyone they know to suffer w/o health care security and protection from medical bankruptcy just to somehow get him back, is like leaping the Grand Canyon in a single bound.

[dflprincess]

26. Forced coverage for all does not equal access to care

this bill is designed to do nothing but protect the status quo. People will still be dying because, despite being "covered" they still can't afford to see a doctor and the there will still be plenty of people filing bankruptcy because of medical expenses.

[ProSense]

34. "Forced coverage for all does not equal access to care"

Blah, blah, blah.

The bill has a ton of reform measures in it that people have no idea about, but continue to parrot one-line nonsensical claims base on the current system.

Here is what current system offers: pay a lot for coverage (no choice), get dropped by your carrier (no choice), remain uninsured (no choice), bankruptcy (no choice), die (tragically, no choice).

So spare me the silliness about "forced coverage."

[Jamastiene]

54. Actually, right now, NO coverage IS a CHOICE.

I'm not going to jail nor fined for having no insurance as of right now. If your sales pitch goes through, though, get ready to build prisons galore. Enjoy paying for it.

[treestar]

110. Then you agree with the right wing

Complete freedom of contract (with those whorish insurance companies or Big Pharma or doctors) - and freedom to go without insurance, so that you will owe the bills personally if you do get sick.

[treestar]

109. See insurance companies never pay out

They deny 100% of claims. There is this conspiracy that the POTUS is in on to make us pay insurance companies and get nothing in return. :sarcasm:

[dflprincess]

120. The system you describe is pretty much the one this bill protects

Pay a lot for coverage and still not be able to access care because the out of pockets are too high.

Do you ever get dizzy from all that spinning you do?

[Divine Discontent]

85. shh... I enjoyed that part of the OP.. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Exposed, yet another

one.

Too many who support the WH are showing they don't know what they're talking about. I'm no expert, but, um, I've known for a year the differences between Single Payer, Public Option and the lofty, Universal Health Care that the OP thinks we just don't want Obama to be the one to bring us! LOL

[angee_is_mad]

7. K&R

Keep hope alive.

[pocoloco]

8. Universal health care for the Insurance companies?

Just as empty as the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Cha]

11. Good..because the Nobel Peace Prize isn't "empty".

[ThomCat]

17. Let's hope that someday Obama actually does something

to earn that Nobel Peace Prize.

[jonnyblitz]

27. i think the norwegians were just being ironic. nt

[IndianaGreen]

12. In an Orwellian world, the Nobel Peace Prize

would really be the Nobel War Prize.

[truedelphi]

130. + 1. n/t

[levander]

13. OP is partisan bickering

This name-calling is a horrible way to try to change people's minds and get them to agree with you.

People either want universal health care or they don't. I'd be terribly surprised if who happens to be president will separate people from what it is they want. That was Bill Clinton's entire philosophy that he rode through the whole Monica Lewinsky thing. He figured that since his presidency was going well, and he was doing the things for the people that he was supposed to be doing, that they wouldn't get all up in arms and hold it over his head how awful the whole blowjob-gate thing was. And, he was right. People don't care that much who gets the credit. They just want what they want. If Obama's the one who gives it to them, they don't care. There's plenty of other things to bitch about him.

[patrice]

16. Yeah, Congress had nothing to do with this world of shit we're in.

just in case someone needs it . . . :sarcasm:

[valerief]

19. Yeah, they're called Republicans. The rest of us want REAL healthcare reform,

not just a big money giveaway to the insurance industry.

[ProSense]

20. Well get it done

Oh wait, you can't just by saying you want it.

How long are you willing to wait for the perfect majority: 45,000, 90,000, 135,000 lives or more?

[valerief]

22. I don't understand. nt

[treestar]

111. So having insurance on everyone is undesirable, right?

I have an insurance policy now. I should give it up. Because it's just a giveaway I am giving the the insurance industry. Especially as it has never paid out anything on me. I guess they are just taking my money for nothing.

[Lorien]

23. UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE??? Seriously dude; WHAT ARE YOU ON??

Obama isn't planning to enact ANYTHING remotely like "Universal health care". He's planning on making certain that the insurance companies get greater and greater profits. That's it. As a self employed person who pays for their own insurance, I can tell you that $250.00 a month for insurance with a 12k deductible that may or may not pay a claim once the deductible is met is absolutely on the opposite end of "universal health care", and what I have is what Obama is offering (mandating) to every American who can't afford much.

[ProSense]

28. Oh please

save the BS distortion attempt.

Your whole post makes no sense.

[ThomCat]

41. His post makes perfect sense.

Obama isn't giving us Universal Health care, and was never planning to.

He is giving us a mandate to buy insurance policies. He is giving us a legal requirement to pay insurance companies for policies, but those insurance companies will not have a mandate to honor those policies by providing care.

They will be allowed to limit care, provide limited options, or deny your claim entirely if they feel like it. Just like they do now. They are only required to sell you the policy. They aren't required to provide you full access to health care, and they sure as hell don't have to make it affordable.

You should stop day-dreaming and fantasizing occasionally and start paying attention.

[ProSense]

45. Your doesn't.

Obama apparently understands more about universal health care than you do. You can read up here.

[ThomCat]

49. I know damned well what Universal Health Care is.

I have a pretty good idea what the Single Payer Health Care version of it might have looked like if Kennedy had succeeded. But what Obama is creating isn't anything even close.

Pretending won't make it so.

Saying repeatedly that we don't make sense (to you) just shows that you don't have any sense. Perhaps you aren't quite ready to discuss grown up issues yet with adults yet. When your puppy love infatuation wears off, come back and try again.

:eyes:

[ProSense]

51. Distortion.

"But what Obama is creating isn't anything even close."

Check!

[treestar]

113. Obama enacts?

another forgetter of Constitution 101.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. This is one nearly transparent step from playing the race card.

Are you really that desperate?

It's NOT about President Obama. It's about getting fucked over.

I applaud you on your "Fact". History WILL be written on results, and NOT tomorrow, next week, next month, OR next year.

Smart people who want Health Care Reform are wondering why it's now gone behind closed doors.

Smart people are wondering why, if it's not passed by Christmas Day, the world will end.

Smart people KNOW that someone stands to reap the benefits of this legislation, and they KNOW that it's not necessarily John/Jane Q Public, or his/her wife/son/daughter.

Seriously? It's about Obama? Seriously?

[ProSense]

29. Race card?

Don't be ridiculous. The OP has absolutely nothing to do with race.

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. I'm not trying to be ridiculous. Tell me, US, if you will, WHY you think the fight is against Obama

Is it because he's a Democrat?

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. Helloooooooooo!????

[ProSense]

39. It has nothing to do with race.

Everyone has a hero, don't let the ones who claim that they don't fool you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. So, sooner or later, you'll tell me (US) on what you based the claim that "they"

just don't want it to be OBAMA who enacts what you call "universal health care"?

Sooner or later, you'll explain why you made that statement, right? Right? Right? And after that, you'll tell "us" (as opposed to "they") WHY "they" would be opposed to President Obama if not because of his race?

[ProSense]

47. Instead of asking me to draw you a picture

read the comments in the thread. Too many people trying to pretend they don't get it. Oh, look over there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. LOLOL. You make a cool cricket sound. Actually, I can't tell the difference between yours and

REAL crickets.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Helloooooo!?

[girl gone mad]

30. You've posted some real NonSense before,

but I think this takes the cake.

[ProSense]

40. Obviously,

you had no better come back.

Just as well.

[ThomCat]

42. It looks like you are the one who couldn't come up with a comeback.

:rofl:

[girl gone mad]

56. Universal Health Insurance != Universal Health Care.

It's simple to understand, unless you're trying really hard not to understand. Say, because it doesn't support your political agenda, insular world view or personal financial interests.

[treestar]

112. lol, and your name is just as appropriate for you

[Froward69]

46. unrecs are incredible

i was just #2 up off of the greatest page.

[budkin]

52. LOL, Universal health care?

[ProSense]

58. LOL!

Yes.

[Jamastiene]

53. Can somebody please take the Energizers out of this bunny?

Talk about strong arming people with a relentless sales pitch.

I don't like salesmen knocking on my door and I certainly don't want this one flagging me down in the street. It's like listening to preaching. :crazy:

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. We'd have to offer her more money than she's getting to post the cut and paste drivel she treats us

to.

I'm guessing, by her ability to cut and paste on a moments notice...

She's like Sybil. 16 people wrapped in one. Only in this iteration, they all believe exactly the same thing.

I'd be interested in what their IP addresses are.

[Jamastiene]

66. As prolific as they are with the OPs, I would guess there

is more than one of them. In the gaming world, we call them bots.

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Agreed.

[ProSense]

69. You're pathetic. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. And you're as predictable as tomorrow's sunrise.

[ProSense]

78. You think accusing someone of being paid is admirable?

If you can't argue on merit, then keep your stupid accusations to yourself.

[ThomCat]

84. What would you know about arguing on merit?

You keep arguing totally bullshit and nonsense endlessly.

[ProSense]

90. "You keep arguing totally bullshit and nonsense endlessly. " Here you forgot a word

"You keep arguing (against) totally bullshit and nonsense endlessly. "

When people have to jump into threads to make the arguments personal, that's simply pathetic.

[cherokeeprogressive]

86. Argue on merit? Are you serious? When all you do is cut and paste the words of others?

Honestly, I've seen maybe five paragraphs of YOUR OWN WORDS. How could I argue with YOU, when the only thing you post comes from some source other than your own mind?

I see stupid shit here every day concerning "right-wing talking points" in the context of people who disagree with the current administration. I've tried and tried, and haven't been able to find a website where "right-wing" talking points can be found.

When I post, you'll VERY SELDOM find links to the words of others, because that's not how I roll. You'll read MY words, not someone else's.

I've seen you post as many as 25 paragraphs, copied and pasted, with NOT ONE WORD of your own in support other than "look at this".

I can't argue with YOU, because you don't post your own words. My "accusations" stand on their own. Your words aren't your own, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that you're paid for posting them.

[ProSense]

89. "When all you do is cut and paste the words" That's so lame. The OP isn't cut and paste, but

the fact-free debaters have been using that lately to hide behind lame argument.

There was a time some of these same people were afraid of links.

[cherokeeprogressive]

93. You've been here fifteen days longer than I have. Don't tell me about links, they're usually

DEMANDED. That's pretty much been the rule since we've (both of us, unless you were someone else who got TS'd before I came) been here.

[treestar]

142. And many of the progressives just post articles from elsewhere

Talk about hypocrisy

[donco6]

136. Stupid? Hardly. n/t

[treestar]

141. Wait a minute, now who is telling people to shut up?

I've seen all those martyr posts about about how the poor progressives are being told to shut up.

Yet it seems they are no better when it's their turn to be opposed.

[beachmom]

57. It's not a conspiracy, just the typical disarray of the Democratic party

I just hope it works out and we get a bill that is not weakened further.

[paulk]

59. what a cheap argument

:nopity:

[rwheeler31]

60. This is cracking the mirage of privatization and the lazy right

is going nuts. We need rules and oversight of business. If they had done well this would not have to be done. They chose to be greedy and selfish.

[ProSense]

61. Collective response to the universal health care deniers

BENNINGTON, Vt., May 11— Gov. Howard Dean, the only Governor who is a doctor, signed a law here today that sets in motion a plan to give Vermont universal health care by 1995.

link

Vermont has 9.1 percent uninsured. That's 5 percent more than the projections for the current bill.

Census Bureau reports that Massachusetts had the lowest 2008 rates of uninsured, while Texas had the highest.

[xchrom]

63. Some people want Obama saddled w/ bad

Legislation.

Cause they think he's just so dreamy.

[ProSense]

68. Don't think

he buys into that assessment. He owns it.

[slipslidingaway]

65. CDC/NHIS – uninsured and underinsured - the underinsured are growing ...

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/insur200912.htm

Health Insurance Coverage: Early Release of Estimates from the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS), January – June 2009
by Michael E. Martinez, M.P.H., M.H.S.A., and Robin A. Cohen, Ph.D., Division of Health Interview Statistics, National Center for Health Statistics

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS)

"...The percentage of persons covered by employer-based private plans that are HDHPs increased from 15.6% in 2007 to 20.3% in the first 6 months of 2009. The percentage of persons covered by directly purchased private health plans that are HDHPs increased from 39.2% in 2007 to 48.7% in the first 6 months of 2009. HDHPs constitute a growing share of both employment-based and directly purchased health plans."


http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/12/18/cdcnhis-uninsured-and-underinsured/

Posted by Don McCanne MD on Friday, Dec 18, 2009

"One-fifth of the nation has been uninsured for at least a part of the past year. What makes that number even more alarming is that, at the beginning of the reform process, President Obama and the Congress decided, in deference to the private insurance industry, that they wouldn’t even begin to try to insure everyone. Instead they decided to include just those who would fit in under their model that is designed to nurture the private insurance industry.

Still even more alarming is the insurance coverage that they propose. The standard policies for middle-income Americans will have an actuarial value of 60% to 70%, which provides much less financial protection than did more traditional employer-sponsored plans. But look what is already happening. Employers are shifting more workers to high-deductible health plans (HDHPs), and in the individual insurance market, almost half of the plans purchased are HDHPs. Furthermore, almost three-fourths of these do not have the backup of a health savings account (HSA).

Except for relatively wealthy individuals, these HDHPs are underinsurance products. They do not provide adequate financial security for those who do develop health care needs.

So President Obama and the Congress are bailing on not only on the tens of millions who will remain uninsured, but also the ever growing number of us who will be underinsured, whether through individual or employer-sponsored plans.

The status quo is unacceptable, but so is this legislation. Dump it and move on immediately with reform that protects the financial well-being of absolutely everyone who needs medical care."

[clear eye]

101. Having insurance is not the same thing as having health care

despite the mantra that Sens. Weiner and Sanders have been pressured to adopt, that "We have to pass whatever is the best bill we can get because at least it will give health care to the millions currently uninsured".

Unfortunately not. What the Senate bill does guarantee is mandated, over-priced, inadequate insurance policies for many more. If mandated private insurance doesn't have strict price controls, the incentive for the companies is to price full-coverage plans until they are prohibitive for businesses and out of reach for all but the wealthiest customers. Then they can charge just about everyone else for mandated limited plans what they used to charge for full plans. The mantra yesterday was that at least if people are insured, they won't be faced w/ bankruptcy due to medical bills. This flies in the face of what has happened under the similar Romney-care in Massachusetts, where medical bankruptcies are still all too common.

In the meantime the new law would also immediately rescind any state insurance regulations which are stricter than federal regs.

Even if the final bill requires that middle-class people only pay a reasonable premium, the rest of the over-priced charge will have to be paid by (guess-who) the middle-class taxpayers, so they'll be hit twice. When the provisions of the law go into effect and the cost overruns and problematic nature of the coverage in most plans become evident, one or more of the following unfortunate things will occur: the subsidies will be reduced to reduce the law's impact on the budget, the public will become convinced that gov't can't run a health plan especially single-payer, and/or many people will become so enraged by what they are forced to buy that they'd rather die than vote Democratic. Which is why the WH hasn't wanted the plan to actually take effect before the next Presidential election.

Faux reform stymies real reform.

[slipslidingaway]

123. Very well said and I agree with your points, people tend forget that most people ...

who went bankrupt had insurance.

:hi:

[Ildem09]

70. Jesus

What is it with the Cheerleaders? it's not that we don't want it to be Obama, it's that we don't what he passes to be shit. this is not in any since of the word good policy. if people here had actual training in policy and governance i think they would be far more critical.. maybe cynical too. what do i know. I'm just one of those jaded liberal academics who bitch from the ivory tower

[ProSense]

71. Oh my,

"What is it with the Cheerleaders?"

"it's not that we don't want it to be Obama, it's that we don't what he passes to be shit."

Let me guess: It's shit because you say so?

[Ildem09]

72. It is

Because the very thing I wrote my dissertation on was comparative health schemes and welfare states across the OECD nations.

[ProSense]

74. I'm impressed.

Not really.

[Ildem09]

75. we had a chance

we really did to end up with something that was decent. i could even live without a government option, if only the regulations were more strict in an analogous situation to what Switzerland, Denmark and the Netherlands has

[Divine Discontent]

87. exactly - we want the best plan we can get - Joecare is not what we want, & frankly, the OP saying

"Universal Health Care", should make everyone just go, okay, note to self, they don't know much on the subject.

[GreenPartyVoter]

138. Welcome to DU! :^) And +1

[rwheeler31]

73. Some just like to fight. Hang in there being sensible is

tough.

[ruggerson]

79. And there are some who care more about the fate of an individual politician

than the fate of the nation.

[Ildem09]

80. indeed

Obama will always be historic for being the first African american president elected to office. however when judged on the impact of his policies and achievements he will probably end up in the middle of the pack

[AVID]

81. look in the mirror as you say comment aloud...it's you - your agenda (obvious for 18 mo.)

[Ildem09]

83. im not talking about agenda

i'm talking legislative successes.

[ProSense]

82. Because insuring 30 million people and saving the lives of tens of thousands

isn't relevant to the "fate of the nation"?


More empty platitudes.

[Ildem09]

88. without decent regulation

sure 30 million will be ensured with unacceptable deductibles and the still arcane labyrinthine preexisting conditions and other insurance rigmarole

[ProSense]

91. "sure 30 million will be ensured with unacceptable deductibles " Nonsense

Such arguments are completely void of context. The 30 million aren't all in the same situation.

[Ildem09]

92. no

however, the situation still arises were the average family of four will pay over 9000 a year in deductibles however, the increase however is less than what it would have been status quo. so that is good. however this is far from anything decent.

[Forkboy]

106. +1.

[treestar]

114. And there are some whose hatred of the individual politician

overcomes any concern for the nation.

[patrice]

121. 1+

[patrice]

122. 1+

[m3e92man8850]

95. but does Obama even want it passed?

[pecwae]

96. This bill does not equate UHC.

Try to understand that very simple fact.

[ima_sinnic]

97. after reading through this thread I now know exactly who is willing to distort

the facts, spout propaganda, and cover his ears while singing lalala to avoid hearing any unpleasant truths. In other words, whose posts are entirely UNcredible.

heartily UNREC--tired of the astroturfers

[styersc]

98. Screw Americans who need help. It should be about Obama.

[jefferson_dem]

99. Kickeroo and Rec.

:kick:

[ima_sinnic]

100. "one of the most progressive presidents ever"?? don't you mean,

one of the most "progressive" presidents in the last 9 years?

by the way, watch Sarah Palin be the 2012 candidate. She is the useful idiot who ensures that the corporate party (so-called "Ds" this time around) will maintain power as voters rush in a frenzy to vote against her--however, I'll vote against her AND the corporacrats by voting 3rd party--unless I see even a glimmer of "change" before then.

[tekisui]

102. It is not Universal Health Care. At best you could call it

Universal Health Insurance Requirement. It is a far cry from Single-Payer Universal Health Care, which is what most people think of when you claim UHC.

It is still very much for high profits from mandatory insurance companies.

[GreenArrow]

119. it's government mandated extortion

in support of private industry.

It's flat out insulting.

[Phx_Dem]

104. True. And sadly some of those people are on the left.

I'm waiting for all the bitching to begin any second now about the climate change agreement reached in Copenhagen. We all know it's not "there" yet and it's not enough as it stands, but you have to start somewherw and this is a good start. They almost got nothing.

[jasi2006]

105. I think a lot of those people are right here at DU. Look at the recs. nt

[Parker CA]

107. Added a rec. History will prove this to have been a monumental achievement.

[treestar]

108. Well exactly

that bill could be single payer and the same people would be finding things wrong with it

[freddie mertz]

115. Hey ProSense, where's that public option you promised me?

Don't you get it?

[demwing]

116. And there are some people who just don't like the details of the bill

regardless who promotes it. It is all about Obama, for Christ's sake.

[hayu_lol]

118. This bill is unmitigated crap...

what the country needs/requires is a SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTHPLAN which covers all diagnosis, treatments, meds, and the rest.

Kill this bill.

[patrice]

126. 1+

[Vinnie From Indy]

117. Sure, those people would be Republicans

Are you accusing regular DU'ers of holding the sentiment that we don't want Obama to be credited with anything significant? Am I correct in perceiving that from your post?

[AuntPatsy]

124. I agree with you but until I see the final bill I reserve judgment on whether

the passing of the bill will be good or bad...I for one am hoping beyond hope that my reservations concerning this supposed health insurance reform are unfounded and that my fears will be proven wrong..

I admit the wording (which is extremely important) is such in this bill where it makes it hard for the average citizen to understand exactly what the true meaning and value is in the end, as in all bills and or laws enacted, it seems they use a mismatch of wordings to ensure there is room to play...that bothers me, why not just state what you mean, it seems we as a country have never been able to accomplish such a small feat meaning we simply cannot just say what we mean, what we say leaves room for many meanings which I assume is the goal..

I could care less which president is responsible for true health "care" reform, I honestly could care less, what I would like is real health care reform to be enacted which I fear is not going to be any time soon.

Unlike many here though, I do not put the blame on President Obama, though I do feel he thought he would have more power than he actually does, some feel he has power and it is more than obvious just how little power the president holds when bills such as this come into play, it is the money lenders and their moles who hold all the cards, I just wish those being dealt in would decide to fold therefore refusing to play a game that is nothing more than a game of chance.

Sad that this country and it's ideals and people have become a battle ground for who can amass the bigger capital and gains thereby remaining in power but having to disregard the real people that are being used as nothing more than pawns in order to win, win at all cost..that seems to be all that matters for the real players in the game at present.

[patrice]

125. Okay, so at least we have made progress on this front: we have:

Some who care more about some politicians than they do about the People.
Some who hate some politicians more than they care about the People.
Some who care more about winning whatever more than they care about politicians or the People.
Some who care more about causing others to lose whatever more than they care about politicians or the People.
And Some who care more about a good policy that serves the most People possible in the best way possible than they care about any of the above.

Does that about cover it?

[Sebastian Doyle]

127. Apparently, it's OBAMA who doesn't want it to be OBAMA

Or he would tell them to cut the bullshit and get the goddamn bill right.

Of course he could always veto the stinking pile of shit when it gets to his desk. And he said he would do exactly that, a few months back.

But will he actually do so?

Because it IS the OBAMA failed health care, the moment he signs it. And if that's the case, he might as well sign a resignation letter the same day, because his Presdiency, for all practical purposes, will be over. :evilfrown:

[patrice]

129. Maybe his sole purpose was to deliver Pipelinestan and he knew that all along, but thought

(covertly) that he could pull this off too, except he didn't think what they produced was going to be so un-acceptable to so many (for reasons listed in my post upthread) as to fail outright.

So, a question IS: what is President Obama willing to accept?

I wonder if he entertains they hypothesis of being a One-Termer and what the consequences of that possibility would be to his preferred policies.

Can you tell me why we think that, if this fails in '09, we can't return to it sometime before 2012, please?

I just don't understand why he can't be a Hero for saving us from those corporate WHORES in Congress, by rejecting this thing now.

[ZombieHorde]

128. Honest question. What do you mean when you say, "universal health care?"

[donco6]

131. You actually think of this as Universal Health Care??

Wow. Unglaublich.

Forcing people to give money to insurance corps is so Not Universal Health Care, it can't even be seen from there.

[bigwillq]

132. I'm cool with it being Obama

as long as it's a good bill. I'm cool with Obama doing several great things for this country. As long as they're the right things. I really hope that Obama turns out to be a terrific president, one that changes this country for the good. This country deserves that. The people deserve that.

[ClarkUSA]

133. You're right. And we all know who they are and why they're so very bitter.

Same shit, different year.

[shadesofgray]

134. Get over yourself. I'd feel the same way about this no matter WHO was in the WH.

I'm not just disgusted because it's Obama. I'd be disgusted with anyone.

Though Obama has shown himself to care more about keeping Lieberman happy than with anything else.

I am a very very leftist liberal and I do not give a pass to ANY politician no matter what party they are. Never have, never will, and I would bet there are few here who have been voting Dem for as long as I have - so you can keep your "you didn't vote for him anyway" bullshit.

[jberryhill]

135. "universal health care"

Larf.

Obama is fighting not to be the first to enact universal health care.

You funny man.

[BeyondGeography]

137. Very astute

and the Internet gives such people an inflated sense of their numbers and impact.

[Number23]

139. 62 recs you got! And this is still at less than 0.

[depakid]

140. That's paranoia if you're referring to progressives-

though quite correct if you're referring to the right (and that includes some so called "conservative" members of the Democratic party).

Most everyone here would love to see Obama succeed with enacting effective policy that might help turn the nation around- but many are equally puzzled by his willful failure inability to harness his unprecedented (at least in recent history) populist mandate and choose instead to embrace those who will never support him- and whose interests are inimical to those of ordinary Americans.

And that may well be his downfall.

Note: two of the last three Democratic presidents faced a primary challenge- one over a quagmire of a war- another over healthcare and the economy.