Forgive me, but I must inject fact into the Obama hateapalooza...

[damonm]

http://bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2011/08/upon-further-examination.html

While everyone is fixated on how terrible this debt-ceiling deal is for Democrats, If one pauses long enough to really analyze the details and all of their implications, one finds that, in the long term, this deal is actually wildly in favor of the President’s position.

(snip)

John Boehner is selling the current CBO baseline to his caucus to pass this bill, and the current baseline includes an expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts. The only way for the Bush Cuts to be extended is if the “super congress” committee offsets it with tax hikes or tax reform in other areas. Going after the Bush Tax Cuts in the committee would not count as reducing the deficit, because the baseline already assumes they will expire.

John Boehner knows this, but most members of his caucus and, admittedly, many members of the Democratic caucus don’t realize it. I didn’t put two and two together myself until late last night.

If you view this deal from the perspective that there is a guarantee the Bush Tax Cuts will expire, then suddenly the deal swings wildly in favor of President Obama. The president offered John Boehner a 4:1, cuts:revenue deal, but what he ended up getting instead is a 1:2, cuts:revenue deal.

[dkf]

1. This is what I keep screaming about.

We have our freaking revenue increase. Geez Louise.

[ClarkUSA]

14. Scream louder!!!!!!! You're too nice.

Be more like me. ;)

[dkf]

15. Lol.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gateley]

31. It's hard to penetrate the hatred. nt

[MrMickeysMom]

98. I don't see this as "hatred"... where do you get "hatred"?

I see this as a colossal mistake and weakness.

I didn't vote for that, and I don't buy the OP's late night realization. That's because we have effectively created a 12 member body of congress outside anything I fathom under our constitution, and that I certainly didn't elect.

I'm flabbergasted, devastated, disappointed, discouraged, and tired of writing on behalf of a poor hand that's been dealt.

You perhaps confuse "hatred" with some other Democrat who thinks that this president is anything but progressive.

[bhikkhu]

43. And its a big change in the wealth inequality picture

Finally, after ten years, things are moving in the other direction!

[pansypoo53219]

64. HOT DAMN!

i KNEW he beat them, but this is even better! PLEASE MAKE IT SO, the bush tax cuts are KILLING us. fucking GWB + greenspan.

[Jakes Progress]

111. Don't believe everything you read.

The OP is not stating facts. The OP cannot show where the bill guarantees that the cuts will expire. The date for expiration is just where they left it. We will have the same game a year and a half from now that we had last December.

The OP and many other posts are trumpeting this "victory" without any reference to language in the bill. They are going on what someone else said based on what someone else said.

He didn't bet them. They beat us. It's a hard reality to accept, but if we keep celebrating losses, we will only keep losing.

[LetTimmySmoke]

65. Is this the same revenue increase we had in 2009?

[doc03]

2. You don't think the Republicans can trick Obama into

extending the Bush taxcuts again?

[melissaf]

4. Isn't this

the second time that the president has tricked the Republicans into doing what he wants?

[doc03]

9. Oh he really tricked them we took the cuts and the

Republicans gave up absolutely nothing. That's like I tricked someone into hitting me in the jaw so they would hurt their fist.

[melissaf]

13. No,

as far as I remember, the budget deal was supposed to involve super-bad-evil cuts, and then someone read the bill a bit more and discovered that the cuts were, in fact, minimal and that spending would increase in some cases. That's when the Tea Partiers really came undone, and that's probably why so many of them don't trust anything the president gives them.

[midnight]

3. Do you know what the expiration date of the bush taxes that he is selling?

[damonm]

8. Yup. They sunset on 12/31/12.

Then they go back to Clinton-era levels.

From the article:

The Bush Tax Cuts account for roughly $3.7 trillion dollars in additional revenue over 10 years. The spending-cuts tentatively agreed to in the deal account for only $2.7 trillion dollars over 10 years. This means there is $1 trillion more dollars in revenue contained inside the deal over 10 years than there are spending cuts.

Furthermore, the spending cuts contained inside the bill do not come into effect until 2013, after the Bush Tax Cuts expire, meaning the revenue and cuts come into effect at roughly the same time.

If the rabid members of John Boehner’s caucus realized this, they would probably be calling for his head.

[elleng]

21. Don't these expiring tax cuts include middle-class too?

[boppers]

32. Yes. How *much* is also relevant.

http://www.factcheck.org/here_we_go_again_bush_exaggerates_tax.html

[elleng]

36. Thanks

[mikeburetta]

68. repub talking points

and when they come up for a vote don`t ya think ya know the talking points for repubs will be.."the obama tax cuts" (in fact i herd that this weekend from a repub congressman) that he will let expire because he signed off on it last time.

[roxiejules]

34. I find it hard to believe the Tea Party doesn't know, but Rush Limbaugh does

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/Limbaugh-debt-deal-taxes/2011/08/01/id/405666

[ClarkUSA]

44. That's because Boehner didn't lie to him in a Powerpoint presentation.

House Speaker John Boehner's (R-OH) office has released the PowerPoint he is using to persuade House Republicans to vote in favor of the emerging debt deal.

Ezra Klein tweets that he doesn't think the presentation is completely accurate: "Boehner's powerpoint misstates the deal to his members. 1) The baseline is not specified in the bill, and does not prevent taxes. 2) Boehner suggests that deficit reduction or BBA has to pass for Prez to get second debt increase. Not so. McConnell mechanism."

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/07/31/how_boehner_is_selling_the_debt_deal.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PoliticalWire+%28Political+Wire%29

Limbaugh's gophers probably feed him stuff all the time. Lots of political analysts today have commented on these very points, none as eloquently and succinctly as Bob Cesca, the OP source, but enough for Limbaugh to understand that President Obama once again = Roadrunner to the GOP's Wily Coyote.

[roxiejules]

61. 43% of Tea Party faction voted NO

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/01/us/politics/how-different-groups-voted-on-debt-compromise-bill.html

http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/690

[melissaf]

62. Well, maybe the teabaggers can read

after all.

[Sheepshank]

79. nah...they didn't read anything.

The bill raises the debt limit. That is the bottom line for many of them...that would be an automoatic 'no' vote.

[vaberella]

69. You think the teaparty has a brain. They shared 1/3 of one. n/t

[Jakes Progress]

109. The expiration date is just as firm as the one last December.

Don't look for that to happen. The fight has just been pushed off on the next lame duck congress and the president. I don't expect a better outcome then. Unless of course you expect the republicans to come to the aid of Americans who make less that a quarter million a year. I'm sure we can expect that to happen.

[Armstead]

5. That's a very big assumption

My assumption is the GOP will make extensions of them a major campaign issue - and once again Obama and the Dems will cave

[damonm]

11. FTA:

The only way for the Bush Cuts to be extended is if the “super congress” committee offsets it with tax hikes or tax reform in other areas. Going after the Bush Tax Cuts in the committee would not count as reducing the deficit, because the baseline already assumes they will expire.

[Armstead]

27. I'm talking politics. Technically they were suposed to be over by now

They were all originally supposed to expire this year. Politics kept them alive.

There's no reason to assume politics will not keep them alive this time too. The GOP will push for that, or something similar, regardless of this Super Committee, and do everything they can to head off any revenue increases and use it as a campaign issue "Democrats want to raise your taxes."

[bhikkhu]

38. From what I understand, the debt deal guarantees their expiration

by the terms of the deal, if the tax cuts are re-extended, that eliminates expected revenue and counts as an expense. Which must be offset with either new revenue, or offset by "spending cuts balanced between discretionary and defense spending". Basically, not going to happen - they're history.

[boxman15]

6. As much as I'm upset we're even debating this whole thing,

the deal really is not that bad. We'll eventually get those revenue increases, entitlements are safe, defense is slashed, and a Democratic Congress in 2013 can potentially reverse some cuts. I still think it cuts way too much in a bad economy, but no cuts was never going to happen in this debate that we shouldn't be having (Obama should've shot it down months ago, before everyone bought into the Republican "cuts now!" narrative). Considering the low standards set by this debate, if you can call it that, it's a decent deal.

[boppers]

24. People got amped up for a huge fight. Turns out it was unnecessary.

Don't worry, a new shiney distraction is just around the corner for people to scream about.

Any cute white girls get kidnapped lately, or maybe the city of San Francisco tried to ban "bad taste"?

[CakeGrrl]

7. Thanks for trying. It won't be heard above the din.

Time will prove that this wasn't as bad as the knee-jerk reports from the MSM and Professional Left pundits made it out to be.

[Armstead]

29. I hope you are correct but I fear you will; be wrong

"Discretionary spending" is still on the block. That's a whole lot of programs that people and society rely on. And that means nothing productive, or that helps those who need help, will be able to get done by government.

[killbotfactory]

10. And most of the cuts are weighted to take place after the Bush cuts expire.

but that's not going to stop anybody.

[bhikkhu]

40. Actually all of the cuts are on hold until 2013

...as long as you don't look at holding spending at current levels as cutting spending.

[lapfog_1]

12. You have to admit that the expiration of the Bush tax cut

is not a given. you expect them to expire, but that may not happen.

Also, it's not a tax increase on the rich, it's a tax increase on almost everyone.

Whereas the agreed to cuts will be in place immediately.

[killbotfactory]

16. The cuts will not be in place immediately

They are spread out over ten years.

But everything can change with the 2012 election.

[onenote]

19. only a small amount of the cuts take effect immediately

Most are back loaded -- and there is ample time to undo them if the economy improves and the tea partiers are run out of town

[boppers]

46. "a tax increase on almost everyone."

It's quite relative.

http://www.factcheck.org/here_we_go_again_bush_exaggerates_tax.html

If you make less than 10K a year, like 23.7 percent of the population does, your tax bill will still go up.

By $8 dollars.

Per year.

If you're in the wealthiest 2% of the nation, making just over $200K a year or more, your taxes will go up by $7,173 or more per year. If you're in the top 0.1% (You are richer than 99.9 percent of the country), making a million a year or more, your taxes may go up by $112,925.

So, yes, you are factually correct that it is an "increase" on almost everyone.

Of course, that kind of glosses over the difference between people living in poverty, and people making a million a year..... and also fails to notice that an increase of eight dollars, and an increase of $112,925 for the wealthy, are very different.

In effect, going to pre-bush tax levels is a *huge* tax increase on the wealthy.

"Whereas the agreed to cuts will be in place immediately." The agreed upon cuts are supposed to be phased in over 10 years. That's not very immediate.

edit: unfinished sentence

[dkf]

48. Nice perspective. Thanks.

[liberalmuse]

17. Yep.

That does make sense and it's nice to know I'm not one of the few who's reading this.

I wanted to market Bush II piñata's years ago, but I think I will make a lot of money if I sell Obama piñatas right here in the DU Marketplace. :(

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. What presidential position?

The tail had been wagging the dog ever since Obama got "shellacked" in 2010. He's been in full retreat since then. It's a god damn nightmare.

[ClarkUSA]

22. If you could stop spewing insults at the President long enough to read the facts, it's this one. -->

Furthermore, the spending cuts contained inside the bill do not come into effect until 2013, after the Bush Tax Cuts expire, meaning the revenue and cuts come into effect at roughly the same time.

If the rabid members of John Boehner’s caucus realized this, they would probably be calling for his head.

It’s no coincidence that President Obama came out last night and bluntly said this is not the deal he wanted. It’s no coincidence that John Boehner and Eric Cantor both told their caucus that President Obama “caved.” They have to say this, because if it appears that President Obama got anything in the deal, then suddenly it can’t pass the House of Representatives.... President Obama knew this would look bad for his administration in the short term, but he took that risk in exchange for winning further along down the road. As I mentioned above, none of this policy actually comes into effect until 2013. Not even the spending cuts. Only 1% of the spending cuts will be felt in 2012.

This deal masterfully accomplishes the task of kicking the can down the road for the Republicans without actually appearing so unless you really dig deep into it, and it leaves most of the details up to the next session of Congress beginning in January of 2013.

We all owe the president a great deal of respect for being willing to take the political hit in the short term to save us in the long term.

Good thing Senators Patrick Leahy and Al Franken know what's up and said so in their statements of support for this debt deal tonight.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

25. Um, I answered your question. Did you read the facts I offered you?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grantcart]

85. "facts we don't need no stinking facts"

[elleng]

20. If this analysis is correct its a game-changer for many,

not only boner+. Anyone have thoughts?

edit. I see some had thoughts before I posted. Thanks.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. The text of the bill refers to March 2012 CBO baseline.

http://rules.house.gov/Media/file/XML_112_1/WD/DEBT_016.XML


Which, as far as I can tell, hasn't been established yet.

[ClarkUSA]

30. Yes, that means taxes can be raised but Boehner lied to his caucus & said it has been established.

House Speaker John Boehner's (R-OH) office has released the PowerPoint he is using to persuade House Republicans to vote in favor of the emerging debt deal.

Ezra Klein tweets that he doesn't think the presentation is completely accurate: "Boehner's powerpoint misstates the deal to his members. 1) The baseline is not specified in the bill, and does not prevent taxes. 2) Boehner suggests that deficit reduction or BBA has to pass for Prez to get second debt increase. Not so. McConnell mechanism."

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/07/31/how_boehner_is_selling_the_debt_deal.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PoliticalWire+%28Political+Wire%29

Isn't that a hoot? President Obama must be laughing right about now. :rofl:

[gateley]

33. I usually agree with Ezra Klein, but he's wrong about Boehner's presentation.

He didn't "misstate", he fucking LIED! :puke:

[ClarkUSA]

35. True, but MSM reporters can't accuse public figures of lies for legal reasons.

Synonyms will do. ;)

BTW, VP Biden did a good job of whipping House Democrats tonight, according to The NYT. Not sure how much of it was theatre to dupe the Teabagger House but I'm glad he was there nonetheless. Must've felt like old times for him!

[elleng]

37. Yes, and some are just polite.

Would be interesting to hear Keith's thoughts on this, 'cause he was really hot against the deal tonight.

[ClarkUSA]

39. The Senate vote concludes tomorrow. By evening, one hopes KO and others in the MSM will get a clue.

Then again, maybe not. Soapbox shit-stirring Rants for Ratings may be the order of the day (or week or month).

Obama supporters always seem to be way ahead of the national political learning curve. :)

[politicasista]

50. The Senators that vote aye are going to take heat for their votes

and be seen as loyal, but they are caught between a rock and a hard place.

[ClarkUSA]

52. Sens. Patrick Leahy & Al Franken have already said they will vote aye.

<< The Senators that vote aye are going to take heat for their votes and be seen as loyal, but they are caught between a rock and a hard place. >>

It might depend on whether they are from red states, swing states, or blue states. Then factor in whether they are up for re-election. If so, then consider whether they need independents in order to win. I'm pretty sure Reid and McConnell have the votes already. They all want to go home.

[politicasista]

60. ok n/t

[CakeGrrl]

54. But they won't take heat here; they're covered.

From what I was told on another thread, it's the President's inability to do his job that has forced these Democrats to vote for this deal.

:crazy:

[politicasista]

59. Certain ones will with Obama, but the favorites will be covered n/t

[melissaf]

42. Or, here's a chilling thought:

Maybe Boehner did the <shudder> right thing for once, and lied to his caucus because they're friggin' nut jobs.

[gateley]

45. Ha! If so, must be the instinct of self-preservation kicking in.

[elleng]

47. Or something like that. I was wondering how a 'Yea' decision would be whipped.

[ClarkUSA]

49. There was a front-page NYT story 2 days ago about how CEOs were calling Republicans in a panic.

Boehner obeyed and got this debt ceiling raised by any means necessary, despite knowing his caucus will have been had by this brilliant liberal President.

[melissaf]

53. gotta love democracy

[ClarkUSA]

56. lol

;)

[boppers]

71. Same as it ever was.

Do you think the rich had a direct line to Washington?

Jefferson?

Adams?

Madison?

How about their slaves?

[mzmolly]

105. .

:D

[DCBob]

70. I am thinking that is possible also..

its like the Grinch grew a heart.

[LiberalFighter]

51. Was Boehner drunk out of his gourd?

I didn't see anything in the WH Fact Sheet that suggested that makes it impossible to increase taxes. In fact, it was included as means to offset costs.

And his powerpoint has it that the balanced budget amendment is sent to the states as a condition for the second phase?

Are they using the King James English for their translation?

[ClarkUSA]

55. This time, I think Boehner was stone cold sober & lying for all he was worth to low-info teabaggers.

They didn't have any time to read the debt deal nor would they ever glance at anything the WH sent out (they're all liberal lies!!) and Boehner knew it, so he took advantage of their complete ignorance.

[CakeGrrl]

57. I think Boehner was just doing some CYA.

He's lucky to be able to count on followers he can fool.

[melissaf]

58. I think maybe the problem is

that the teabaggers have problems with reading, period.

Also, I don't think you can automatically send a Constitutional amendment to the states without it being passed in the House and Senate. And for that, I believe you need a 2/3 majority in both.

[LiberalFighter]

41. I like this part

It's no coincidence that President Obama came out last night and bluntly said this is not the deal he wanted. It’s no coincidence that John Boehner and Eric Cantor both told their caucus that President Obama "caved." They have to say this, because if it appears that President Obama got anything in the deal, then suddenly it can't pass the House of Representatives. There is nothing they hate more than giving the president a victory, so it has to appear as if he got nothing, and they have been pretty convincing.

The president offered John Boehner a 4:1, cuts:revenue deal, but what he ended up getting instead is a 1:2, cuts:revenue deal.

Obama says it was not the deal he wanted. But Boehner and Cantor say Obama caved and they got the deal they wanted. Boehner and Cantor are going to have fun getting raped over the coals by their teabaggers.

Maybe, after this they will be scared to try and push for anything because they will get bamboozled again.

[Maru Kitteh]

63. K & R.

[jzodda]

67. No we lost this fight

Its much bigger than the fight over how the CBO scores this. That part is pointless. The fact is we are playing now on the Republican's turf. We are no longer talking about jobs or stimulus or how the gov can put people to work like they did in the new deal era. We are talking about how to make gov smaller.

So today socialism is becoming more and more a dirty word and robber baron capitalism won out because the ground has shifted right and thats where all the arguments are.

Instead of saying we want to be more like Europe we disparage Euro socialism now and talk of shrinking the size and scope of gov. So overall its a huge shift. The new age of austerity has begun.

[Myrina]

72. "deal is actually wildly in favor of the President’s position."

... and therein lies the problem. His position ISN'T liberal/progressive/good for the country position. It's good for his fat cat corporate golfing buddies. He needs to switch parties and just be honest about who he really is.

[PVnRT]

73. IF the tax cuts expire

Trust me, it will be made into a huge issue during the election next year, and no politician gets elected saying that they will let tax cuts expire. Or, as the spin will be, "raise taxes."

[JoePhilly]

74. Extending those tax cuts won't be an election issue at all ... think for a second.

and answer these two simple questions.

1) What is the date that the Bush tax cuts are set to expire? December 31, 2012.

2) Who will be President on December 31, 2012? Obama will be. Even if he were to LOSE the election, he's still President on December 31, 2012.

And try to recall, Obama has said all along he wants to raise taxes on the top 2%, even as a candidate in 2008.

The only reason he extended them in 2010 was because he also promised not to raise taxes on those making under 250k. If he broke that promise in 2010, then he'd be dead in 2012.

With the expiration date sitting after the election, he has all the cards. He can let them all expire, and then pressure the congress to reinstate only those for the middle class, and threaten to veto anything else.

He can't run again, but the Republicans can. And he'll be calling for middle class tax cuts, and the GOP will what? Say they are against middle class tax cuts? Not if they want to get re-elected.

[PVnRT]

75. IF he wins

If he loses, he can't simply veto an extension anymore. Even if he does win, the Republicans have shown that all they need to do is stand firm and make threats, and eventually they will get their way.

[paulk]

76. how much of that 3.7 trillion saved from the expiration of the

bush tax cuts comes from cuts to the middle class? The great bulk of those cuts was not the tax cuts for the wealthy and those middle class tax cuts, if you recall the debate from the time, where a Democratic idea, not a Republican one. The notion that this is not going to become a political issue (and yet another opportunity for a hostage situation) is naive at best.

Especially since the country has a very good chance of being in great recession 2.0 at that point, and effectively raising taxes on the middle class is not going to be very smart policy...

[damonm]

88. Somewhere between Diddly and Squat...

Just like the amount of extra money the middle class saved in the cut. The much-maligned stimulus did more for me.

[paulk]

101. the percentage going to those making under 250k a year

was 85%.

I don't consider under 250k as "middle class", but that's the number Obama used when describing the Bush tax cuts that he wanted to rescind.

Agreed, it doesn't add up to much individually, but as an aggregate it's a huge number, and blows a hole in the 3.7 trillion argument.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

77. Boss Limbaugh actually figured this out too yesterday

He was a bit more sanguine about the deal than most Republicans were (I think)

[tweeternik]

78. K&R !! n/t

[Fearless]

80. Want to tell me a little about this "revenue".... n/t

[ZombieHorde]

81. The devil may be in the details, but so far the deal does seem to favor liberals

over conservatives.

[Unvanguard]

Duplicate. n/t

[Unvanguard]

82. The current CBO baseline assumes the tax cuts will expire. That doesn't mean they will.

The Joint Committee will probably leave marginal tax rates untouched for this reason.

[Tennessee Gal]

83. Thanks for posting this.

Perhaps this is a fine indicator that people should relax until they understand the details.

It also appears that Boehner got bamboozled. LOL!

Gotta love this part:

John Boehner is selling the current CBO baseline to his caucus to pass this bill, and the current baseline includes an expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts. The only way for the Bush Cuts to be extended is if the “super congress” committee offsets it with tax hikes or tax reform in other areas. Going after the Bush Tax Cuts in the committee would not count as reducing the deficit, because the baseline already assumes they will expire.

John Boehner knows this, but most members of his caucus and, admittedly, many members of the Democratic caucus don’t realize it. I didn’t put two and two together myself until late last night.

If you view this deal from the perspective that there is a guarantee the Bush Tax Cuts will expire, then suddenly the deal swings wildly in favor of President Obama.

The president offered John Boehner a 4:1, cuts:revenue deal, but what he ended up getting instead is a 1:2, cuts:revenue deal.

[uponit7771]

84. FUCK FACTS!!!! /sarcasm

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sentath]

87. No, I'm sorry. You're going to have to expand on that

or I'll be forced to Rec for alternate viewpoint

[damonm]

89. Looked in a mirror lately, Mr./Ms. Pot?

[LaydeeBug]

90. Even though turds are brown, they don't taste like chocolate no matter how much

you discuss similarities.

LET IT STINK!

[NatBurner]

113. that was deep

[proud patriot]

91. a kick for facts ... woo hoo

:-)

[elleng]

92. damonm, sharing this thread elsewhere, hoping for educated discussion.

Thanks.

[grahamhgreen]

93. If he wanted the tax cuts to expire - IT WOULD HAVE HAPPEND ALREADY!

[JoePhilly]

99. He also promised to not raise taxes on the 95% making under 250k.

If he let all of the tax cuts expire, he breaks THAT promise, and its his GHW Bush, "read my lips" moment.

The 95% would be reminded daily that Obama raised their taxes.

DU would be screaming that Obama letting the middle class taxes expire proved he hated the middle class.

The Bush tax cuts are now set to expire on 12/31/2012.

Why does that date matter? Because it is after the 2012 election, but before a new President would be seated.

Either way, Obama is the President on 12/31/2012. And win or lose he can allow those cuts to expire. He can't run for President again.

The GOP and the media can't hold the middle class tax cuts over his head.

This is why it didn't happen already.

Oh, the Dems in Congress could have averted this ... they could have passed an extension of the middle class tax cuts in the summer of 2010. They didn't. They punted, and left the mess to Obama.

[Jakes Progress]

94. Not forgiven. You need facts to inject them.

Show me the language in the bill, the very words that declare the bush tax cuts will be required to expire. Keep in mind that they were once before supposed to expire. So for your post to have any validity, you need to show that it is a fact that the bush tax cuts cannot be extended.

[bvar22]

95. Not only will the Bush Tax Cuts be extended,

but the "Temporary" Payroll Tax Holiday will ALSO be extended.
The "Recession & Jobs Crisis" will be used as the cover for these extensions.

Obama & The Centrists, with the help of the Republicans will NOT "Raise Taxes" on the RICH in an election year, or any other year if recent history can be used as an indicator.

NOT. Going. To Happen.

Those claiming that these are going to "expire automatically"
have NO grasp of recent history,
or have another agenda.

[Jakes Progress]

96. A sense of history, both recent and near past, is a handicap

if you want to praise the president right now.

[uponit7771]

97. So no cuts in SS or Medicare or VA benefits? Good

[roxiejules]

100. They are already preparing for a cut fight

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4945008

[Jakes Progress]

108. That would be good if it were true.

No one here has managed to find the language that mandates no cuts in those programs. Just weasel words and governmentese. Everything being posted is an interpretation of an announcement of a press release about what someone thinks is in the bill.

[Bake]

102. Expiration of the Bush tax cuts? Don't bet the farm on it.

The Bush tax cuts include not just the hated top bracket breaks, but also lower bracket rate cuts. It won't be just the wealthy who get stuck if the cuts expire; it will be the lower and middle brackets too.

Do you think Obama or any Democrat is going to raise taxes on the lowest earners?

I don't.

Bake

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

104. Happy

to recommend. :hi:

[Number23]

106. Rec'd. Will this make DU's greatest page?

The last two years, the home page has been swamped by the refuse from another forum.

This is a great examination of the deal. I read Klein's piece on this two days ago which is one of the reasons I couldn't understand what all of the screaming was about.

[Glimmer of Hope]

107. Sound good to me!

[Jakes Progress]

110. You are confusing fact and fantasy. The will not expire.

That is a nice little bit of story telling there. Especially the part where everyone lives happily ever after.

But facts are not just some press office dream. For facts why don't you show me the words in the bill which declare the bush tax cuts will be required to expire. We had a date that was supposed to happen before. You know. Last December. Now it's just pushed off for December a year and a half away. So how does this bill guarantee that the cuts will be lifted? Your post stated this as if it were fact.

It is not fact. What is a fact is that the republicans and the centrist Democrats will do the same job again that they did last time.

Those cuts aren't going anywhere, and this bill does nothing to assure that they will.

[mikekohr]

112. Big kick

Thanks for the post