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How bad was this deal? It was "the lowest moment of Obama’s presidency"

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:53 AM
Original message
How bad was this deal? It was "the lowest moment of Obama’s presidency"
Jonathan Chait

The debt ceiling agreement is a horrible piece of legislation. It ratchets down already too-low domestic discretionary spending caps and imposes painful sacrifice on the middle class with little asked of the rich. Obviously, though, you can’t assess any deal without asking “compared to what?” Did President Obama get a worse deal than he had to, given the circumstances? And the answer to that question, in turn, depends on when you start the clock, and more importantly, when you stop it. Let me explain.

Going back to December, the Democrats committed a massive blunder by failing to push for a debt ceiling increase. At the time, observers like Ezra Klein were noting how absurd it would be to let Republicans force through a deficit-increasing policy (extending the Bush tax cuts) and then let Republicans stick Democrats with the blame for the debt ceiling. A reporter even asked him about the Republican Party’s ability to use this vote as leverage, and Obama seemed not to grasp the point at all. Obama has implied that he couldn’t have received a debt ceiling hike, but I don’t think that’s correct.

Then, last spring, Obama committed blunder number two. Republicans began voicing opposition to raising the debt ceiling, or insisting on massive concessions in order to do so. The correct response here was to refuse to negotiate. Obama simply needed to say, we’re raising the debt ceiling the way we always have, because the alternative is catastrophe. We can negotiate any policy change you want, but not with a gun to the head of the American economy. Eventually, the business community would have pressured Republicans to relent. Instead, once Obama ascented to broadening the scope of the debate, business simply wanted a deal to get done, and it pressured both sides to compromise. (It is true that the complicity of the anti-deficit lobby in the Republican hostage gambit made it harder for Obama to insist on keeping the deficit and the debt ceiling separate.)

<...>

The problem, though, is that we can’t be sure Obama really intends to draw that line. There’s a limit to how much faith one can place in a man who has so badly misjudged his political opponents time and time again. The debt ceiling ransom may be a shrewd strategic retreat, or it may be the largest in a series of historic capitulations. We won’t know until the fight over the Bush tax cuts has been settled.


Robert Reich Tweets

    "No tax increases on rich yet almost certain cuts in Med and Social Security, and deficit cuts when joblessness is soaring. An insane deal."

    "Ds can no longer campaign on R's desire to (cut) Medicare and Soc Security, now that O has agreed it . A tactical and strategic defeat for Ds."

    "The heinous deal is preferable to economic catastrophe. The outrage and shame is it has come to this choice."

    The hostage crisis may be over but the US economy will now suffer insufficient demand and a govt incapable of boosting it.


Krugman

<...>

Make no mistake about it, what we’re witnessing here is a catastrophe on multiple levels.

It is, of course, a political catastrophe for Democrats, who just a few weeks ago seemed to have Republicans on the run over their plan to dismantle Medicare; now Mr. Obama has thrown all that away. And the damage isn’t over: there will be more choke points where Republicans can threaten to create a crisis unless the president surrenders, and they can now act with the confident expectation that he will.

In the long run, however, Democrats won’t be the only losers. What Republicans have just gotten away with calls our whole system of government into question. After all, how can American democracy work if whichever party is most prepared to be ruthless, to threaten the nation’s economic security, gets to dictate policy? And the answer is, maybe it can’t.



Michael Tomasky

"This is the lowest moment of Obama’s presidency. It makes Bill Clinton signing of the welfare reform bill of 1996 look like the founding of the Peace Corps."


Was there a sale on hyperbole-generating machines?

Here's the WH Fact Sheet
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Someone sketch for me...
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 01:57 AM by Davis_X_Machina
...a non-sucky deal capable of passage through both Houses of this Congress.

Mr Tomasky? Mr. Chait? Mr. Reich?

Bueller?
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. *Crickets*
People forget that the government has been pretty much in gridlock on anything serious this year, because the Rs control the House, and the Dems control the Senate and White House. Anything the House passes, the Senate kills, and vice versa.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Also, the GOP obstructs almost everything that the dems want to do in the Senate.
Just about everything in the Senate needs 60 votes for cloture and we do not have 60 democratic senators in the Senate :(

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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hell, the Dems obstruct almost everything the Dems want to do...
...in the Senate.

Three parties, two labels. Democratic senators who are Democrats<1>. Democratic senators who are Republicans. Republican senators who are Republicans.

<1> Counting Bernie Sanders as a Democratic senator who is a Democrat, even though he is not a Democrat.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. And don't forget these...
Republicans that are part-time Democrats (Snowe, Collins, Brown, and since her re-election Murkowski)
And the Republican Teaparty'ers - those folks that the real Republicans wish would just go away but are too afraid to say so ;)

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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. This is like "the day the music died." Feel like driving my Chevy to the levee.
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SusanaMontana41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. How about no deal? Why link the budget
to the debt ceiling? The insane 'baggers did that, but why did Obama buy? Why why why?

This isn't about the man; it's about his apparent strategy of appeasement. We all lose.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Debt ceilings were deemed passed...
....by virtue of the budget being passed in 2007, 2006, 2003.

They've been intertwined for years.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Obama didn't do that, they did. The question is whether Obama knew they would or not.
If he felt they would or expected that they would, then he just played a strategic political game of ownage that is mind blowing. If he didn't think they would then he is the most naive President in history and got very lucky.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. How did Obama get lucky?
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 08:47 AM by brentspeak
The public will be very aware that it was Obama who enabled the GOP to slash needed funding all over the place. Many states will be forced to dramatically curtail public services which rely on federal funding. And since raising taxes to pay for services isn't a likely vote-getter with the public, we'll be seeing even more GOP governors popping up around the nation -- or more GOP-like governors like Andrew Cuomo. On top of that, it is a proven fact that cutting spending during a recession makes weak economies even weaker; Obama will seek re-election in a more dire economic environment than when he first campaigned.

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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. How about no deal? How about crashing the economy?
No thanks.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. It would Send A Message...
...and isn't that what it's all about?

This comfort with default fascinates me.

The tea-partiers don't seem to think it's a big deal.
And there are plenty of the left who think it's an acceptable alternative to most of the deals we've seen floated.

Which makes me nervous, this community of interest.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. How about a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling?
If Obama would have stuck to his guns on that, and if he would have had the courage to take it to the people, that's just what we would have gotten.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Through this House. Yep. By the sheer power of Awesome.
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 02:27 AM by Davis_X_Machina
We had one at the end of May.

Got 97 votes. How many Democrats are there in the House? It's more than 97.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. How about by power of simply having the GOP agree to it in writing
Back in December when the Bush tax cuts were extended and he had leverage?

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/31/tax-cut-memories/?scp=1&sq=krugman%20conscience%20tax%20cut%20memories&st=cse

You seem to understand that the GOP can't be trusted; how come our president doesn't?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. There isn't a bit of evidence to support that view.
It would still have descended into a giant game of chicken, where the only sane person loses.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #18
35. And there isn't a bit of evidence to support the belief that we could not have gotten a better bill.
Of course, since Obama is the Great Capitulator, we'll never know for sure how it would have turned out if he had done everything he could to get a clean bill. I didn't think anyone would mind if I speculated about this in my reply to Davis_X_Machina, since his premise was also based on speculation.
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Sheepshank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
38. See you said something here that few recognize...
game of chicken only works to the advantage of the bravest and collest of heads, if BOTH sides have a conscience and think rationally.

It really doesn't work well if one side is insane and willing to take a nose dive off the cliff. Many Tea partiers are still upset that the debt ceiling looks to be raised, regardless of the concessions they did or didn't get. They would rather have driven off the cliff. How does one play chicken with that mentality?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. One builds a coalition of Democrats and slightly -sane Republicans for a clean bill
We did NOTHING to counter the crazies, biut gave in immediately on "negotiations."

There are still enough Republicans with at least one foot in reality that, combined with Democrats could have put together enough votes for a clean bill to at least shift the circus to ground where the teabaggers would not have had the leverage to tank the economy.

Maybe it would have still played out as it did. BUT AT LEAST WE WOULD HAVE TRIED, INSTEAD OF GOING ALONG WITH THE GOP NARRATIVE AND TERMS FROM THE START.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
45. obama has never ONCE stood his ground... and this is the result
name one time he has and NOT given in

DATA - STILL not overturned

DOMA - STILL law of the land

"healthcare reform" - NO reduction in premiums, increase in care, and he OUT RIGHT INSULTED UNIVERSAL ADVOCATES!!!!

this truly was the best deal obama could get because he's a known caver.
you don't play chicken with an insane man - the tea party
You don't play chicken with a weak man known to cave.


obama did both of those and this is the natural result.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Well, he did get his girls a dog.
PolitiFact cites this as a campaign Promise Kept. Somebody should include that one on The List I keep seeing posted here.
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. point
Edited on Tue Aug-02-11 10:21 AM by comtec
... maybe I should have been more specific

but you're right
POINT

now what about something that actually affects the country?
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. And of course, that is the point.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
43. Last January, start submitting a "clean bill" every day and demand it be passed
Every day put it up for a vote, and demand that Congress pass it continually if the GOP keeps voting No do some bully pulpit educating by Obama and Dems in the WH and Congress that "we're willing to talk about the budget and work out a long range plan after that, but this must be done first to stave off disaster. It is suicidal not to pass this basic piece of fiscal housekeeping."

Perhaps that might not have prevented what ultimately happened. But it might have...and at the very least, it would put massive egg on the faces of republicans, and led people like Boner to pressure the teabaggers to go along.

Just one of many alternatives that would have been possible.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Kerry/Edwards 2004 was not exactly the same thing.
And I'm surprised anyone here is defending Edwards.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. What the hell does that have to do with the OP? n/t
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good info for once
Thanks for posting! :rofl:
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's starting to look like Obama WON just about everything he wanted ...

but the GOP and most Democrats just have not yet realized it.

See this OP and the comments: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x729581


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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. you may not realize that
it's quite possible that everything HE wanted and everything WE wanted are worlds apart, because I am not seeing a hell of alot that I wanted. Not that I matter one whit to Obama.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. Yeah, he just didn't WANT very much.
All he wanted was (a) to avert default, and (b) not to have to do this again during the 2012 campaign.

What HE wanted was not what we thought/hoped/believed he wanted. You know, things like some revenue concessions ... closing the corp jet loophole, closing the tax credit for Big Oil ...

Guess he didn't want those things after all.

Bake
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DontTreadOnMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. Recent Gallop Poll has Obama at his lowest rating ever
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 02:18 AM by DontTreadOnMe
... but sure, keep trying to convince yourself that Obama is doing a great job.

"there will be more choke points where Republicans can threaten to create a crisis unless the president surrenders" -- Krugman

TAKE IT TO THE BANK.. Obama has weakened himself for ALL FUTURE negotiations.

Bookmark this thread, we can come back and discuss the next Obama surrender in 90 days.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Detecting
"but sure, keep trying to convince yourself that Obama is doing a great job.

...some issues!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. "Hell yes, I've got some fucking issues!"
Agree, the first one in an identity crisis, that is unless you're the poster I responded to?

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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Without some revenues from the rich, there is no shared sacrifice for what is being pushed by DC
the only gleeful people that are being reported time and again, are Republicans. The Democrats are saying this mess is nearly identical to boner's bill, with the extension being added in so they don't have to go through again in early 2012 being the main difference.
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CakeGrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Heh, only the far left is claiming the R's are gleeful. Teabags/Freeps are livid. -nt
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. wait, is that link supposed to be some sort of rebuttal?
because I do not like the sound of this - "Establishes a bipartisan process to seek a balanced approach to larger deficit reduction through entitlement and tax reform;"

Especially considering the gang of six crap that Obama endorsed.

And I guess this is a great victory if you are a Republican "Reduces Domestic Discretionary Spending to the Lowest Level Since Eisenhower: These discretionary caps will put us on track to reduce non-defense discretionary spending to its lowest level since Dwight Eisenhower was President."

Well just keep shrinking it - soon we will be able to drown it in the bathtub.

Then there's this - "To Meet This Target, the Committee Will Consider Responsible Entitlement and Tax Reform. This means putting all the priorities of both parties on the table – including both entitlement reform and revenue-raising tax reform."

That sounds kinda like Catfood Commission deja vu. Both the CC and the gang of six, came up with "revenue raising tax reform" that CUT taxes for the rich, and increased taxes for the middle class (I assume, since how else could it be 'revenue raising'?) Seriously, lower the top marginal rate and call that tax "reform".

That just reminds me of what I wrote about how Republicans use the word 'reform'

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/91

"the GOP loves the word reform
Posted by hfojvt in General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)
Wed Sep 03rd 2008, 01:57 AM
Bush promised to 'reform' social security - by killing it.

He promised to 'reform' the tax code. In other words, take away its progressivity and call that 'reform'.

It's pure marketing. Take a policy which benefits rich people or corporations and sell it to the idiot masses by calling it 'reform'. It's like a political sub-prime loan. Just sign it and don't bother to read the fine print, and then act surprised six months after the election when you have lost your house.

To quote Dennis Kucinich

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!"


At this point, my best hope would be that the automatic cuts take place. There's absolutely no chance that a bipartisan committee will come up with something palatable.

The only other reform I would like to see is for 90% of the Republicans in Congress to be thrown out of office and for about 80% of Democrats in Congress to lose in primary elections, but there is not much chance of that either.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. how can it be his lowest moment?
there are no low moments in the Obama presidency. All his moments are high.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
30. Two weeks ago, a "balanced approach" meant increasing tax revenues
Now, suddenly, a "balanced approach" means spreading cuts between social and military spending. What's the "balanced approach" going to be three months from now?
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Blaukraut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
33. Of course the WH is going to paint this 'deal' in the best possible light
What else are they supposed to do? Admit that they got blackmailed into giving the republicans 90% of their demands? Sure, there might be some hyperbole going on about the deal, but that does not make Chait, Krugman, Reich, et al wrong, does it?
I went from 100% behind Obama, to questioning some of his decisions, to still giving him the benefit of doubt, to finally losing all faith in him. And you know me personally, so you also know that I'm not a troll or a 'professional leftie' hater, what have you.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
34. new buzz word - "hyperbole"
officially sanctioned, no doubt

LOL
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. Hyperbole is the media's stock in trade
All sides.
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budkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
37. Obama just keeps outdoing himself
And not in a good way
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
39. Kicking this excellent post up!! K&R!!!!! n/t
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Creideiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
41. So far.
But there will be people trying to sell real Americans a shit sandwich claiming it's roast beef.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
42. So what do you consider the lowest moment of his presidency?
I would have thought that any Democrat would agree this is the worst it's got. What you do think is worse than this?
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