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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:00 AM
Original message
Liberals go off on a mandate
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 10:04 AM by Pirate Smile
Liberals go off on a mandate

IT IS predictable that disappointed factions on the Democratic left would need some way to vent anger at their leaders for pragmatically abandoning many features of health-insurance reform that the left wanted (and that, in many cases, would have made reform cheaper and more effective). It's not so predictable, and seems self-destructive, that Howard Dean and netroots organisations like FiredogLake would go so far as to oppose the bill, and rally their members to lobby their representatives to vote against it. But it seems simply bizarre that pro-reform liberals like Markos Moulitsas and Keith Olbermann have decided they oppose a mandate to require every individual to purchase health insurance.

You cannot have universal health insurance without a mandate. Every country in the world that has a universal health-insurance system either requires its citizens to buy health insurance, or includes its citizens in a default insurance programme automatically and taxes them for it (which is effectively the same thing). The reasons for this are simple, and have been covered hundreds of times since the current debate over universal health insurance began during the Democratic presidential primaries in late 2007. If you don't oblige everyone to buy health insurance, then many young and healthy people will bet on not needing insurance, and will decline to buy it. That shrinks the remaining pool such that it is made up of older, sicker people with higher medical costs, and thus premiums will rise. That in turn will cause more healthy people to leave the system. This is the phenomenon of "adverse selection". Ultimately you're left only with rich old sick people, and nobody else can afford insurance. This is known as an insurance death spiral. If you want affordable, universal health insurance, then everyone has to buy in.

One would think that at this late date in the health-reform narrative, everyone would have grasped this point. One way to read the strange new opposition to the mandate is as a reminder that a substantial segment of the new, energised leftist segment of the Democratic Party began the decade as centrists or libertarians, and were pushed left (in some cases far left) during the Bush administration. Mr Dean, Mr Moulitsas and Mr Olbermann all fit that bill, and you can hear a slight libertarian echo in Mr Moulitsas's current rhetoric. Though, to be fair, the main thrust of Mr Moulitsas's anti-mandate argument is that granting private insurers a monopoly and pouring more money into the system will raise prices unless it is accompanied by European-style provider-cost regulations, which are not currently on the table.

But another way to look at it is this: Americans are still not used to the way universal health-insurance systems work. Mr Olbermann, for example, is angry that working-class Americans will be obliged to buy health insurance that could cost up to 17% of their incomes. Mr Olbermann is right; that figure is too high. But there is plenty of time before 2013 to ensure that no one ends up paying such extortionate premiums, and it's a good bet that, if reform passes, no one will. What happens in systems where people are obliged to buy health insurance is that, if such insurance is unaffordable, governments are forced to find a way for people to afford it, or governments are voted out of office. In the Netherlands and Switzerland, the private-based universal health-insurance models to which America's current reform aspires, governments employ a mixture of provider-cost controls, premium regulations, and subsidies to make sure nobody has to pay 17% of their income for health insurance. If people were forced to pay that much for health insurance, governments would fall—and they have.

I remember what it felt like to move to the Netherlands and be told that I would have to buy health insurance, or I'd be kicked out of the country. For an American, it certainly felt...different. Then I encountered the other difference: I signed up for a plan, and found my premium cost me a quarter what I'd been paying in America. That was the result of decades of constituent pressure on politicians to get health-insurance costs down. Mr Olbermann and Mr Moulitsas are still thinking like free-market consumers of health insurance: they don't like it, so they want out. Of Albert Hirschman's trio of options for consumers in failing organisations, "Exit, Voice, and Loyalty", they're choosing "exit". When you move to universal health insurance, you have to get used to choosing "voice": if you don't like it, you fix it. And if they want their side to continue winning any elections, they should probably get used to "loyalty", too.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2009/12/the_mandate_didnt_we_cover_thi
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is not Universal Affordable Healthcare. Therefore mandates are wrong.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. There's a lot of difference between a mandate with absolutely no restriction
on the insurance companies and one that doesn't let them get away with everything they wanted.
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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. The issue isn't the mandate. It is the fact that there is no CHOICE (such as a public option).
No real competition means costs likely won't go down.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Is this guy advocating this bill as a way to replace our entire Government?
Hey, maybe its not such a bad idea after all.

Dems are signing their death warrant. Jokes on them.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. A mandate requires a mechanism to control prices, either by a state program or severe controls.
This bill has no price controls at all. An insurance can charge as much as it wants. They are limited on how they can discriminate, but they certainly can charge high premium to all. They hope the market will regulate itself. How did it work for the last 15 years?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. In every single nation that taxes or mandates a purchase
it is also a crime to profit from the delivery of basic health care or insurance, so the fact is, this country would be the first one do force citizens to buy for profit private products.
To pretend that those countries do the same sort of for profit mandates as this one is considering is absolutely dishonest. This OP compares non profit companies who would be punished for profiting to United Health Care. That is basically a lie.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. The only thing funnier than a Liberal who supports a war...
..... is one who opposes a tax. ;)

(half of us have become Ron Paul supporters ..... or maybe we were already)
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Since when is a premium paid to a for profit Insurance Company
a tax? It is a forced purchase of a product, not a tax. To claim those opposing forced purchase of private for profit products with those who oppose higher taxes is to foist a lie, plain and simple. Because forced purchase of private products is not a tax. Tax is paid to our government, not to United Health Care.
Words have actual meanings.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. No get your facts right -- This is a theft of taxes
A tax based on income as part of a universal health care plan based on service and not profits would be much more palatable, and consistent with the notion of taxes as a price for the public good.

This mandate is a requirement to buy a private product at high prices that everyone knows is shitty. It is a theft from the people's pockets into private hands by force of law, and the "subsidies" are a direct funnel of money from the Treasury into the greedy pockets of insurance companies.

What part of this distinction are you missing?

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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. So - your ok with his anti-abortion stance then? nt.
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Umbral Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. "there is plenty of time before 2013 to ensure no one ends up paying such extortionate premiums"
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 10:53 AM by Umbral
Should this bill pass (as is), there wont be enough Democrats left in congress to fix anything. What? You think the Republicans are going to help clean up this mess?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. If Progressives don't stand up now, then the corporatists will make sure
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 10:54 AM by Larkspur
that changes for the People will not happen.

Progressives are demonstrating that they are an "engaged citizeny" which is the best antidote to Wall Street domination.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. Lol. You're citing corporate mouthpiece The Economist as an ally for this bill.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. Obama promised us no individual mandate.


I am not asking for a pony. I am asking Obama to do what he promised and not force the uninsured to further enrich the health insurance cabal. Evidently, I am asking too much.

:dem:

-Laelth
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DianeK Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. If you mandate that everyone buy into the health insurance
you must provide a public option. That is the whole point..no public option no mandate..simple
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wackywaggin Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Mandate all Senators and Congresspersons to be on this plan

If it is ggod enough for the average American then it is great for all federal, state, and local public employees.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. This piece argues IN FAVOR of removing mandates
Since there is plenty of time to lower costs before 2013, there is plenty of time to insert the mandates before 2013.

Kill the mandates now and insert them along with the legislation that makes insurance affordable.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. Very intersting post, thanks for sharing
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fundamental flaw
You CAN have universal health insurance without a mandate to buy insurance from a private company.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. Even single payer would be a mandate
so I'm not getting the so-called liberals being so upset about it. That's usually right wing territory - they have the right to take their own risks without government interference.

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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. A 2% income tax to pay for single-payer vs. at-least 17% of income for a private mandate
Plus, the infinitely better coverage that single-payer offers vs. a private insurance system. A single-payer mandate is a galaxy apart from your beloved corporate dreck.

Do you enjoy parading your cluelessness on these boards?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. That's a lot of conclusion
But the issue was mandating it and you moved to another issue. Can you discuss anything without getting emotional? That's why you are illogical.
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