So much revisionist history going on about Egypt here

[Very_Boring_Name]

The Egyptian PEOPLE got rid of Mubarak. Never forget "Mubarak is not a dictator and should not step down" was the line used by this administration.

[ProSense]

1. Are you

referring to this?

[Very_Boring_Name]

2. I'm referring to several posts, both pre and post mubarak stepping down

[babylonsister]

3. PERFECT! Yea. Obama sux! nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

4. More like the people who fought and died for their freedom deserve the credit

Not the guy who supported the dictator.

[babylonsister]

6. What is your gripe exactly? Do tell, because I can't figure it out.

You have a problem that this was handled correctly by this admin? Why?

[Very_Boring_Name]

7. I have a problem with people giving this admin credit for something they actively OPPOSED

Hence the "revisionist history" in the title.

[babylonsister]

8. How did Obama actively oppose this? He was very

circumspect imo.

[Very_Boring_Name]

9. "I would not refer to him as a dictator" - Joe Biden

Note I said administration, not Obama specifically. But as we all know, the buck stops at the President, and if this admin really did support the protesters they should have apologized for Biden's comments, which they didn't.

[babylonsister]

10. Get over it. Biden was being diplomatic when this started to stew.,

if you can't 'get' that, too damn bad. If you can't 'get' what happened since, and how inspiring President Obama was to the Egyptian people, you are mired in hate. Read this:

Egyptians chanting Obama's name
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x609772

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

39. "being diplomatic" doesn't work for idealists

Nor black and white thinkers.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. Says treestar, who thinks dictators are sometimes necessary for "stability"

Especially if corporate interests are involved!

[phleshdef]

11. Refusing to call Mubarak names did not hurt the protestors one single bit.

Biden was making it clear that in our position of being an important ally, he wasn't about to call Mubarak names. We owe them apologies for nothing. And given their response to the President's speech today, they don't feel like they are owed it either. They are not on your side in this little piss fit you are throwing.

We played this the way I wish Bush would have played it with middle eastern affairs. You wanted hawkish bullshit, name calling and chest beating. To hell with what you wanted.

[Very_Boring_Name]

12. I have no problem with them doing nothing.

My problem is doing nothing and then claiming credit for success.

[phleshdef]

15. They didn't claim credit for success.

The praise you are seeing here is for the way the administration walked a very delicate diplomatic line in what could have been a very fragile situation. From a diplomatic standpoint, this turned out to be a good thing for the US because we didn't come across as trying to shove Mubarak out, which would have painted us once again as meddlers, but we also gave Mubarak very little hope of getting anywhere if he didn't start the transition to hand over power to someone else. Several highly respected experts on middle eastern and foreign policy issues have echoed these same sentiments.

The fact is, a lot of people spent the past 18 days giving Obama a lot of shit because he wasn't handling this their way. Instead he handled it his way and it worked out fine. I think thats whats really getting in your crawl. Once again, Barack Obama's cool headed, pragmatic approach has been validated and you can't stand it.

[babylonsister]

16. Thank You! Perfectly stated! nt

[Very_Boring_Name]

17. Yup, that's gotta be it. It couldnt be, for example, threads claiming his 2009 egypt speech is what

"started it all" :rofl::rofl:

[babylonsister]

18. Speaking of that speech, you must have forgotten this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x610084

[Very_Boring_Name]

19. Staying silent isn't leadership, nor was it a catalyst for the revolution

Keep trying though.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phleshdef]

21. His 2009 speech actually did a lot to get arab peoples to start looking differently at the US again

Regardless, just because some other anonymous internet poster inaccurately described the relationship of that speech to this revolution does not excuse the way you are attempting to deflect any credit that would be given to the administration for walking a fine diplomatic line until the situation was seen through for the best. The ignorance of others does not excuse your own.

[olegramps]

35. Your arguments are so fallacious they are down right ridiculous.

[DCBob]

32. +1

:thumbsup:

[hulka38]

42. We came across as trying to keep Mubarak in

and make reforms. When that looked unlikely (within days of their original policy), the new policy was have Mubarak step down and Suleiman make reforms. Neither was acceptable to the Egyptian people. The way it worked out, both Mubarak and Suleiman out of the equation, had nothing to do with what the administration wanted. The way it was handled makes us look weak, confused and unprincipled especially in the recent wake of the 2009 Cairo speech.

[vaberella]

28. The Admin never claimed credit. And what were they supposed to do exactly?!

I love when people say this BS, because I always want to know what you wanted them to do. For most people "pretty words" were not enough. So if he was screaming from the rooftops the protestors are right...it would not be enough because they're just words. He did the right thing obviously because he kept the tone neutral, while assuring the people that he supports their call for democracy. That was all that was needed.

[vaberella]

27. How is that an opposition. Some people called him a despot.

Other's said he was this or that. Not many people defined him as a dictator on the left and on the right. So I'm not understanding your point. The title means nothing because the WH did support the people. And the speeches that were made by the White House were broadcast ALL over Egypt and if the Egyptian people are calling his name in praise...then you're the one who's wrong.

[vaberella]

26. That is blatantly false. This Admin NEVER opposed protest, as long as it's peaceful.

NEVER. To say that is a revisionist history.

[olegramps]

33. What hell are you talking about?

Obama convinced the dictator not to use violence. That was a key factor in its success. You don't have any idea what-so-ever what the Obama administration was doing to enhance the popular revolt. I know for a fact that our military has very close ties with the Egyptian military and thousands have studied in the United States. Where in the hell did you think that they got the training to use American manufactured weapon systems?

[babylonsister]

5. We are well aware of who got rid of Mubarak, and who supported

the people. Thanks for crystallizing that.

[boppers]

14. Well, the OP is already working on its own revision.

I am willing to bet $1,000 dollars to the democrat of your choice that you cannot find:

"Mubarak is not a dictator and should not step down"

Used as a phrase *ANYWHERE* by this administration, because it's a blatant falsehood.

Go ahead, show me the source of your quote. I expect the wording to be exact, since, well, it's a quote, right?

It's not a dishonest paraphrasing to make one set of words say something else?

Here, I'll save you some research time:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/106430/20110128/joe-biden-mubarak-is-no-dictator-and-should-not-step-down-video-full-text.htm

That phrase does not appear anywhere in the text. It's a copy-paste job of actual wording to say something else.

[SixString]

22. Pay up.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=Mubarak+is+not+a+dictator+and+should+not+step+down&cp=50&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Mubarak+is+not+a+dictator+and+should+not+step+down&pbx=1&fp=92188ee12107320c

Joe Biden says Egypt's Mubarak no dictator, he shouldn't step down ...
Jan 27, 2011 ... 02.10.11. Strong signs that Egypt's Hosni Mubarak will step down tonight; 02.06.11 ... I would not refer to him as a dictator.” ... He also said: "I think that what we should continue to do is to encourage reasonable... ...
www.csmonitor.com/.../Joe-Biden-says-Egypt-s-Mubarak-no-dictator-he-shouldn-t-step-down - Cached

[boppers]

24. Paraphrasing doesn't count.

"I would not refer to him as a dictator"...
and
"is not a dictator"...

Are separate phrasing constructions, with different possible meanings.

I want an exact quote, one that matches the quoted part of the OP.

[boppers]

25. Oh, and if it helps:

Headline writers and blog posters don't usually count as speaking for the government.

Much to their annoyance.

[vaberella]

29. ! n/t

[bhikkhu]

23. All things considered, the Egyptian people rose up themselves

and deserve all the admiration they have received, by doing it more peacefully and with more dignity than I have ever seen.

And the US administration deserves praise for not screwing things up for either side, for not meddling excessively, and for carefully sidling onto the side of standing for something and maintaining good relations going forward. Anyone who thinks all that is easy needs to read some history.

[jeanpalmer]

30. And it's not clear what they got in his place

Right now it looks like they've replaced him with a military dictatorship that isn't very democracy oriented. It's not even clear that Mubarak is completely gone -- his "resignation" that he never announced could have been just a pr stunt. He could still be pulling the strings in the background. Either way, the people so far haven't really accomplished much in terms of concrete reforms. It's been nothing but vague promises coming from a torturer who doesn't believe in their cause. And with regard to the Obama administration's actions, they've been in touch with the new general in charge and apparently support him. So it's not clear Obama has plans to push for anything more than what's already been done.

So it's too early to give very much credit to anyone.

[vaberella]

40. Well they haven't replaced him and he was the military dictatorship. n/t

[DCBob]

31. Nobody is revising history but it would be naive to think that the administration was not..

doing things behind the scenes to help this process to come to the results we see today. I suspect there were intense negotitiations with the army and Mubarak and anyone else in a position of power.

[JoePhilly]

34. Those who demanded that Obama bluster more are ticked now ...

because Obama's approach was correct.

Public BLUSTERING would have made a very dangerous situation worse. Obama knew that, and didn't do it. He did not allow his administration to do it either.

And those who wanted more bluster predicted that Obama's lack of bluster would ensure that Mubarak stayed AT LEAST until September. Now that they've been proven wrong, they need a new line of attack.

And so we now get "Oh yeah, well, Obama didn't help make it happen either, so NA NA NA NA!!!".

Its pretty funny ...

:rofl:

[DCBob]

36. The "geniuses" on the hard left and the hard right were proven wrong again..

President Obama has done so many things right in spite of all the wrong advice he gets from extremists on both sides.

[JoePhilly]

37. Very true

[DCBob]

45. I like your tag line..

I live that one. ;)

[treestar]

38. Quite oversimplified

No one here has shown much knowledge of Egyptian politics or history or of U.S./Egypt relations.

the right wing is claiming Obama started the whole thing! How ironic!

[totodeinhere]

41. If the people hadn't taken to the streets, do you really believe that Obama would have lifted a

finger to get rid of Mubarak? He was sending Mubarak millions of dollars in aid.

[FrenchieCat]

43. The beauty of it is that Mubarak is gone, and he was ousted by his own people.....

Why would anyone want it done any other way or
hypothize what Obama would have done or not done
had Egyptians not done it themselves?

And why would we think that anything that
Obama might have gone to Cairo University to say have
any effect at all whatsoever to do with anything?
Or Google or anything?

I'm surprised that this didn't happen before Obama got into office....
but most likely that is just a coincidence.

I'm sure if Bush would have been in office, it would have happened in
exactly the same way.... No real violence, and done in 18 days.
Yep....that's the ticket! :eyes:

[Jennicut]

44. The Egyptian people DID get rid of Mubarek. And that is the way it should be.

Forcing democracy doesn't work (Bush and Iraq?). It must be organic, homegrown, from the youth, passionate and real. Obama's role was to see what would happen and react in a way that supported the people but did not overly interfere. Walking a narrow line. Remember that if Mubarek stayed, Obama would still have to do diplomacy with him. Better then threatening force at everyone, no? Obama's role was not supposed to be big, but if he somehow nudged him just a bit to get out then good.

[polichick]

47. Yeah, but it's so much fun to start endless hero worship threads! nt