To all those who claim Obama lost their vote for '12...

[jenmito]

Are you sticking to that even if he ends DADT, ends DOMA, ends the war in Iraq, closes Gitmo, and vastly reduces troops in Afghanistan? Because your declarations seem premature to me.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

1. How is he going to end DOMA?

Isn't that an act of congress?

[JuniperLea]

4. For the sake of argument...

And for the sake of giving a direct answer to a direct question (for once) let's just assume he pulls the way he's going to do it out of his ass.

:eyes:

Can you answer the direct question with an up or down vote?

[jenmito]

5. They're all acts of Congress. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

10. So how is he going to end them?

You post an OP saying Obama will do these things and I am curious how he is going to get Congress to overturn DOMA. (And DADT, though that's easier.)

The other things he can do unilaterally, aside from associated funding issues.

[jenmito]

15. With Congress's cooperation, of course. Can you answer the question? n/t

[JuniperLea]

18. He can't answer your question...

Because he doesn't understand it... or prefers to twist it.

[jenmito]

22. I see that. There's another one here with the same problem. n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

25. Your question?

Since I have never said Obama has lost my vote for 2012 it isn't directed at me.

[JuniperLea]

16. Read the OP again...

And kindly point out where it sayd Obama WILL do these things.

Honestly... :eyes:

[dflprincess]

29. Yes it is

and when it comes to health care we're being told over and over that Obama has no control (or apparently influence) over Congress so it's not fair to expect him to share the blame for the sell out. Now we're being asked to speculate that he might actually try and exert influence in other situations.

[Teaser]

2. oh let them stew

seriously, trying to argue people out of being pissed will never work. and really, it doesn't matter. we are a a tiny piece of dust, hiding under a speck, concealed from view by a pebble in the grand view of politics.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. But if we all yell loud enough, Horton might hear us. nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jenmito]

7. Re-read my OP and get back to me. n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peacetrain]

20. U.S. announces transfer of detainees (Gitmo) to Ill. prison..f

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121501215.html?hpid=topnews

CHICAGO -- Dozens of terrorism suspects being held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, will be moved to a little-used Illinois state prison that will be acquired and upgraded by the federal government, the Obama administration said Tuesday.

[treestar]

99. The next three years?

What could happen in the next three years?

That's why it's stupid to make pronouncements about 2012.

[villager]

8. Conversely, if Obama *doesn't* do these things, will you stick with him?

:shrug:

[jenmito]

11. You can't answer my question? n/t

[villager]

14. Well, since you broached the hypotheticals, you should declare your position, yes?

n/t

[jenmito]

19. My thread asked posters a question. If you can't answer it, don't expect anything further

from me in this thread.

[JuniperLea]

13. That's not the question being asked...

Can you answer the question that IS being asked? I think it would be far more fair to answer the given question first before asking another... and asking a question in response to a question is rude at best.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. If he manages three out of five, that would mean he's batting .500

and that's worth a second term.

[Hard_Work]

80. Three out of Five

is actually batting .750. That would definitely be worth a second term...to answer the question, I haven't said I wouldn't vote for him. I still support him.

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. I'm counting in the HCR failure, (3 of 6) which brings it down to .500.

But IMO that is still decent.

I think closing Gitmo is a given, now, and we are still on track for it to be shut down by the end of January. DADT and DOMA are on the back burner, till after Iraq and Afghanistan are closer to being dealt with, but expect to see both of those addressed within the next 2 years - well before the 2012 elections. And I figure in Afghanistan, by mid-2011 we will see it working and the drawdown will commence, or we will see it not working, and we'll cut our losses and pull out - either way, we will be on our way out by election time.

I fully expect to be able to vote for him in 2012.

[JuniperLea]

9. Since the TARP money seems to be coming back, with mass interest earned...

The ol' "Obama spent us, our children, and our grandchildren into debt with this TARP bullshit" is pretty much blown out of the water, so that will only piss "them" off further. I don't expect straight answers from those I think we'd all like to see answer your direct up or down vote question.

But I'm glad you asked:)

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Didn't you hear? Now it's BAD that TARP is being paid back

because

1) Now Obama can't dismantle the whole of finance capital by using TARP as leverage AND
2) It's being paid back by the issuance of new equity, which is really "taxpayer money" anyway (:wow:) AND
3) It's being paid back with free money flowing through the Federal Reserve, since the Fed Discount Window is just a place where banks go to pick up money and stuff.

The whole TARP will never be paid back thing is soooooo last month. Now it's TARP SHOULD never be paid back!

Keep up!

[silverweb]

23. +1

[Peacetrain]

24. But But But GM is paying backs its loan by June..

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. And this reduces Obama's ability

to make GM produce electronic hover cars for all! You're being conned! Don't you see that?

:sarcasm:

[Peacetrain]

30. Now I understand..

;)

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. It's very simple

If GM doesn't pay back the money, Obama is a fool who gave money away to the big Corporate Interests, or worse, a TOOL of those Corporate Interests.

If GM does pay back the money, Obama is a fool who just gave away his only leverage over the big Corporate Interests, or worse, a TOOL of those Corporate Interests.

Thus sayeth the DU Truth-tellers. Amen.

[JuniperLea]

63. Amazing...

The goal post is in constant motion!

[dionysus]

103. keep goin, you guys are on a roll!

:thumbsup:

[jenmito]

37. Exactly...

and not one person answered my question yet!

[freddie mertz]

17. I'll let you know in 2012. If the world doesn't end or something.

[jenmito]

27. My question was if you'll support him if he accomplishes those things by '12. Why can't anybody

answer this simple question?

[freddie mertz]

40. It's not worth discussing at this point.

I am not happy with his performance so far.

Time will tell.

[jenmito]

41. Why is it so hard for ANY of you critics to answer the simple question? n/t

[freddie mertz]

127. In this case, because it is speculative.

And right now, I am not feeling the Obama love of a year ago.

More like buyer's remorse.

[RaleighNCDUer]

57. No good - the end of the world isn't scheduled until after the election.

The question is, if those things are accomplished will you want Obama or someone else presiding over our last 8 weeks of existence?

[MNDemNY]

28. He is unlikely to have my vote in the primary.

However if he is the Democratic Nominee, he will , of course, have my vote.

[jenmito]

33. Even if he accomplishes those things?

If he does, and you STILL wouldn't likely vote for him, I don't believe for a SECOND you'd vote for him if he were to be the nominee. :eyes:

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MNDemNY]

44. All right, real question.

If he does NONE of those things, as well as NOT passing HCR with a robust PO or expansion of Medicare, will you consider NOT supporting him in the primary?

[jenmito]

51. Yes.

[MNDemNY]

56. Self edited due to my rash response.

[QC]

58. Bush wasn't all dreamy 'n stuff. n/t

[jenmito]

64. Ummm, did you not comprehend my answer?

[jenmito]

61. WTH are you talking about? Did you not understand your own question?

Or was it the "yes" that you had trouble understanding? :rofl:

[MNDemNY]

65. On this I will apoligize for my utter shock at your answer!

I recind that post. My bad.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

31. got to look at the bright side

[dionysus]

32. they say this, but he never had it in the first place....

[jenmito]

35. Look a few posts above you...

Someone said even if he DID accomplish those things, Obama wouldn't get his vote "in the primary" (as if he'll have a Dem. opponent).

[dionysus]

36. yup. totally predictable.

:hi:

[MNDemNY]

131. He will. there is no doubt.

[Cha]

43. Many are just haters from the primaries

who never stopped but boy is this their time to shine.

Had one thread get locked last night from that group who called President Obama an "SOB" and that he couldn't wait until 2012.."2012 can't come fast enough".

They think they're so sneaky.

[MNDemNY]

49. That's a good one!!!

You continue to crack me up, Cha, I don't know where you keep coming up with those zingers!! Again, the funniest poster on the interweb!!:rofl: :rofl:

[dionysus]

115. ...he says, completely proving Cha's point...

[MNDemNY]

125. How do you type with those pails in your hands?

Your nose?

[AspenRose]

45. *nodding*

[rudy23]

81. Most of the "critics" like myself, were donors and volunteers in '08

I was for Obama from day one of the primaries. Not Clinton, not Kucinich.

He's lost me. I'm furious with him, and the only thing he could do to get my vote back is to kick Rahm Emanuel's ass on live TV. Doesn't look like it's happening.

[Cha]

83. Yeah yeah.

yeah.

[dionysus]

92. and i'm the king of scotland. there. i said it. it must be true

:hi:

[Cha]

97. I don't buy anything from

obvious haters. Not even if they flogged matt taibbi on live tv.

:hi:

[dionysus]

pardon me if i call bullshit. people can claim anything they want on the internet

i've seen you use shit like worship\pompom so many times there's no way i'm going to believe you. nice try.

[rudy23]

112. Yes, you would know that all too well. You want my receipt number?

You can keep wishing it away all you want to, but you can't deny what's going on right now is a direct consequence of Obama's bullshit policies that you support as dutifully as a stepford wife. I'm not the only one by far. You're flinging more shit at good Progressives than I am at Obama's Republican policies.

[dionysus]

114. you give yourself away every time you post. stepford wife..cheerleader..messiah...kool aid...

i think your pampers need changing buddy.

[rudy23]

119. Show me another post where I've used any of those terms. You can't b/c you have NOTHING.

You're trying to accuse me of being what you are b/c that's Rove 101, and that's your M.O. We can all see it. It's over for your kind in this party. The lights are on.

[JuniperLea]

117. What has he actually done that you don't like?

I'm not talking about what you think he's doing, or what he "thinks" or "wants" to do, I'm talking specifically, what has he done that you don't like, that you find a betrayal?

[rudy23]

126. Appted Goldman into Treasury, ramped up Afghan, took the Blue Dogs' side on HCR

Covered up Bush crimes, dragging his feet on gay rights, do you really need the list or are you pretending to be so obtuse you don't notice the bazillion threads voicing disappointment for Obama's actions?

[treestar]

100. amen

And notice how they resist the idea anything that could happen in the next 3 years might matter.

[Clio the Leo]

39. Like "needs to be put into an incubator under a grow-bulb" premature. NT

[jenmito]

42. Why can't even ONE person answer the simple question? n/t

[Clio the Leo]

47. lol, because you're correct.

And it always sucks to admit when someone else is right. ;)

[jenmito]

48. I'm pickin' up

what you're puttin' down. ;)

[Clio the Leo]

73. lol NT

[MNDemNY]

50. I did.

You just did not like my answer.

[jenmito]

55. True. You said you wouldn't. Thanks for showing your true colors.

[MNDemNY]

60. In the primary, but that is a distinction lost to you and yours.

Better get back to your last line of defense...ALERT !!! !:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[jenmito]

68. Nothing is lost on me. You already made up your mind that you won't support him

even if he accomplishes all the things in my OP. Am I supposed to believe you voted for him in the '08 general election? :rofl:

[MNDemNY]

70. What you believe is irrelevant.

[jenmito]

75. I don't care.

[MNDemNY]

93. You have shown that to be the case.

[AndrewP]

53. You sound like Nancy Kerrigan...."WHY?????"

Would I support him if all of those happened, sure.

Happy?

[jenmito]

54. Yes. I didn't think it was such a tough question. n/t

[Clio the Leo]

76. Which would make those she's asking the question of...

.... the dumb thugs that whacked her?

Thanks, that was too easy. ;)

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Hey straight apologisits! My rights are not free to be used

as some cheap rhetorical device. Equality is not a verbal toy for you to bat around for the sake of a politician who is opposed to equality. Your if then question is insulting, self indulgent flame bait.

[jenmito]

67. Flame bait??? You can't be serious, can you?

It's a simple question-if he gets those things done by '12, will you vote for him? Yes or no?

[cherokeeprogressive]

79. Personally, I found it to be a shitty way of calling out DU'ers you wish to brand as

Obama Haters.

[jenmito]

87. It was a SIMPLE QUESTION asked of those who said Obama lost their vote.

I found it VERY premature to declare such a thing which is why I asked my question.

[JuniperLea]

88. Really?

How would you have done it?

[cherokeeprogressive]

95. The simple answer to that question is I would not have called out DU'ers for disagreeing with Obama

or his policies. It's 2009 FFS. The next general election is nearly 2 years in the future. I'm not making plans yet, for or against, and I don't think many other DU'ers are either.

[JuniperLea]

98. I think you're wrong...

I think a lot of people have already made up their minds based on 25% of the current term. And I think the question a fair one... and clearly one non of his detractors want to answer.

[AndrewP]

86. Correct

[JVS]

62. Is that stuff actually happening?

[Zodiak]

69. No, but one can wish those things were happening

....or make a thread inviting people to answer this off-the-wall hypothetical question and get insulted for it with a bunch of self-selected individuals cheering it on. If said entrapment thread generates no response (because people have seen this little game played a thousand times here), then decry those people as wimps for not taking the bait.

In this case, wishes actually ARE magic little fishes.

[jenmito]

71. He said it will happen by the end of his first term. If it does, will you support him?

[JVS]

78. I'm having a very hard time believing that what he says will happen actually will happen

This summer he said he would sign a health care bill with a public option. That's not happening.

He suffers a significant credibility gap. I'm not considering the question further until I see some evidence that progress is being made.

[jenmito]

84. What's so hard about answering my question-IF he does all those things,

will you support him in '12? It's an easy question.

[JVS]

94. Why should I believe those things are going to happen? Also, what business is it of yours?

For further reference see #26

[treestar]

101. You are taking a position that there is no way these things will happen

And refuse to consider the question then.

[jenmito]

102. Nobody said you should believe those things are going to happen. I simply asked

those who said (on this board) that Obama lost their vote already, if they would stick to that position IF Obama accomplishes all the things I stated in my OP.

[JVS]

104. Then your question isn't directed at me. But your hypotheticals sound unrealistic.

And we all know how important it is to be realistic and pragmatic these days.

[JuniperLea]

116. What did I miss?

Did he sign one without a public option yet? Has he signed any HC bill? There is no credibility gap until he actually fails to do something during his term as POTUS... unless you count the abundance of wishful thinking and unfounded expectations, which I don't.

[tekisui]

66. I will vote against him in protest in the Primary, if given the option.

Of course I will vote for him the General. Even if he has done all the things you lay out (which I will believe when I see).


But, I doubt I will donate and volunteer this time around.

[jenmito]

82. Why? In protest of what? And doing all the things in my OP wouldn't

change your mind?

[tekisui]

85. Your OP hypothetical is a pipe dream, but I'll play along.

His lack of strong leadership has left me none impressed. The escalation in Afghanistan is enough for me to cast a protest vote. The continued weakening of what is left of healthcare reform is enough.

His ignoring, defense of and even adoption of some of the atrocities of the previous administration is enough to cast a protest vote.

Like a said, I will Primary protest if possible, but will be there in November with vote only.

[jenmito]

89. It's a pipe dream in your opinion. It's a simple "if" question.

Did you vote for him knowing he was going to escalate in Afghanistan? It wasn't a secret.

[tekisui]

91. Please don't shovel that bullshit towards me anymore.

On the trail he said he would focus on Afghanistan and mention 10,000 troops. He has now doubled the troop levels, up to 55,000+ more, with a year of full escalation and a year of failures. His approach isn't working. I never agreed with his Afghanistan position, but he has gone full tilt into an unnecessary escalation and expansion of war.

He was wrong on the campaign trail. I voted for him thinking he would make better decisions when he saw results. He is more wrong now.

I am bookmarking this thread to see how off the mark your hypothetical ends up being.

ETA: You ignored the rest of my post's points.

[Kitsune]

72. If he does a massive 180 after seeing how this "bipartisan" bullshit works, he may win me back over.

But frankly, I don't trust him, and I don't expect him to change one goddamned thing.

Like all politicians, he is a liar, and I am disgusted with myself for having been taken in by him.

[mochajava666]

96. I could not have said it better

I definitely feel deceived. His campaign convinced me to suspend my cynicism and to donate and work for him. People who think he isn't liar are either ignorant of the "secret" Big Pharma deal that he denied or just blind to the truth. I feel horrible that a guy that I believed in turned into such a corporate tool. I would like to blame Rahm, but Obama picked him.

I will vote against him in the primary and won't vote for him in the general election. After one year of multiple betrayals, a few bones thrown to the progressives right before the election will be too little, too late.

He isn't playing chess while the rest of us are playing checkers. It's more like he is playing a team sport, but secretly throwing the game for money.

[tekisui]

74. Vastly reduce troops in Afghanistan? From the level he inherited?

It won't happen by 2012.

[LittleBlue]

77. I haven't committed my vote yet. When the time comes, I make the decision then

It really depends on other issues than just those, such as the economy, etc.

[Taverner]

105. He'll get my vote...just none of my time or $$$

He falls into that Clinton/Kerry/Gore/Dukakis classification "Lesser of two evils"

[jenmito]

108. You'd still consider him the "lesser of two evils" if he

accomplishes all the things listed in my OP?

[Taverner]

109. No - but lets make a friendly wager out of this

$5 - if he does half of the things on your list before the next election

Based on previous behavior - I don't expect it

[jenmito]

111. Deal.

I DO expect it.

[Taverner]

113. Remind me come election time then

[jenmito]

118. Bookmarked. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

106. Simple answer to a bullshit hypothetical: Yes, if he ENDS, ENDS, ENDS, CLOSES, and VASTLY REDUCES

then yes, I will be solidly behind him in 2012.

If he fails on either of the FIRST TWO, my gay daughter and I will likely vote for whomever challenges him in the Presidential Primary. I consider those to be civil, nay, HUMAN RIGHTS issues and will not support for President anyone who has had the opportunity to make them "front burner" issues and failed to do so.

[jenmito]

110. Thank you. That's all I asked. n/t

[Prism]

107. Probably, if he ends DOMA

You're asking for an absolute answer now, when so much can and will happen before that point. However, if this President puts a concrete end to DOMA before the 2012 election, I imagine he would have my support. DOMA is a rather large deal for LGBTers and our equality, and I would be hard pressed to dismiss any politician who slays that particular dragon. However, I would like to note he would have to work to end DOMA. He cannot show up for the signing ceremony after Congress does all the work. All that illustrates is Democrats are better than Republicans, but that really is the very least a Democratic President should do. I want to see him actually use the bully pulpit to help get it done.

But it would be a rather large mark in his favor for me that wouldn't go ignored.

But, let me make this clear. If health care mandates start ruining the middle and working classes, if the Afghanistan war spreads further into surrounding countries, if the economy is not back on track, if Wall Street has not been seriously reformed and continues on as it has been for the last decade, all of that will have to be taken into account.

I realize DOMA is very much "my pony", but it isn't entirely about me. Even if I get what I personally want for myself, I will take into consideration the well-being of my fellow Americans and whether or not I believe this President is doing right by them.

So even if DOMA is repealed, there does exist possibilities the President errs enough in other areas where my support becomes highly tentative. But, if DOMA is repealed, I cannot imagine not voting for him in the general. The primary is another story and would be dependent on all of the above things.

[jenmito]

121. Getting DOMA repealed (as well as DADT) was promised by Obama...

and I don't consider either one of them being anyone's "pony," but a promise to be kept. My question was only absolute because the statements AGAINST voting for him in '12 have been absolute.

[Prism]

122. An absolute answer then

If this President gets DOMA repealed, he will have my vote in the general.

[blue_onyx]

132. But...

Obama said he was against health care mandates (one of the reasons I preferred him over Hillary) and he went back on that. What makes you so sure he'll stick to what he said about DOMA and DADT?

[NYC_SKP]

120. Deleted message

J/K, you know I agree with you.

I don't get it, I don't even try to reason with them anymore.

:P

K and R!!!

:kick:

[jenmito]

124. Good thing I checked...

what you posted. I had no idea what you'd say. Thanks. :)

[lame54]

123. and if he doesn't do any of those you have to eat a live gopher

[IndianaGreen]

128. The wars will still be raging in 2012, and we will still have DOMA and DADT

One thing we will have are the mandates to purchase health insurance we can ill afford.

Obama is Lieberman's bitch!

[grassfed]

129. maybe he'll make a moving speech!

[branders seine]

130. you mean if he becomes a completely different president

the remaining three years of his term, working with a smaller majority (if any majority at all) in Congress? The Democrats will lose, and lose BIG, in 2010.

What are you smoking?

[jenmito]

134. No-I mean if he does what he said he'd do by the end of his first term.

What are YOU smoking? I'm not smoking anything.

[BlueIdaho]

133. I may vote for him but he'll have to get there without my money.

I'm done contributing to lost causes.

[Popular Front]

135. The man's got my vote. n/t