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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:03 PM
Original message
Of Whole Cloth
Edited on Sun Nov-07-10 10:07 PM by NanceGreggs
During the eight disastrous years of the BushCo Administration, the constant buzz among Democrats – especially those on DU – was the fact that Republicans stuck together and supported their own, no matter what.

This kind of support was dismissed as zombie-like lock-stepping, never to be confused with, nor equated to, the independent thinking among those under the Big Tent, who consistently defied the notion that people with common goals were incapable of achieving them without demanding like-mindedness among their ranks, devoid of individual opinions and/or the acknowledgement of separate-but-equal principles.

The Big Tent included a vast array of Democrats: centrists, middle-of-the-roaders; conservative-prone moderates and far-left extremists. And all were welcome, because that was our strength. We, as a Party, recognized that it was the tapestry of interwoven threads of myriad origin that made for better cloth, more enduring than the fabric crafted of one fiber, to the exclusion of all others deemed unacceptable by those who manned the political looms.

Where we have failed, IMHO, is in the recent admonitions to be less-than-inclusive of our own when they voice opinions that fall outside the accepted voice that MUST be deferred to – a.k.a. the loudest among us – something we have recognized as a major fault in our opposition, but somehow ultimately failed to see as detrimental when we adopted it as part of our own behaviour.

It is no surprise to the more astute here that demands to toe the line by self-proclaimed progressives, extreme liberals, far leftists have been divisive within our party, and the self-appointed spokespeople for the aforementioned have driven a wedge between the many groups that truly are, collectively, “the base” – that base so many claim to have exclusive rights to, as though no one of differing political stance has a right to be acknowledged for their efforts to achieve the goals common to us all.

It is somewhat ironic that the Big Tent – once representative of our proud heritage of honouring diversity and individual thought – has been gleefully rent asunder by those who, despite their claims of liberal-minded tolerance, have absolutely no tolerance for those who disagree with their own view of the world and how it can be made better for all.

There are some whose intolerance is the result of feeling marginalized by the greater numbers who are more pragmatic in their attitudes; those who have grown understandably impatient with fellow party members who seem reluctant to move ahead at a pace not necessarily acceptable to the nation-at-large.

But there are also those whose intolerance of any political stances taken, other than their own, is simply a matter of having it their way or no way – the consequences of such an attitude be damned. They have no empathy for those irreparably harmed by their attitude, nor sympathy for those whose lives are adversely affected by their insistence on all or nothing, their way or the highway, or the prospect of being judged as unworthy of being part of the collective “we” should opinions be expressed that are not in keeping with the loudmouth-de-jour on a political website.

Our Big-Tent strength is now being proferred as our biggest weakness – no room for centrists, conservative Democrats, pragmatists, incrementalists – or whatever other label certain people wish to apply to those whose world view is different from their own, whose approach to achieving commonly-held goals varies in any way from the lockstep demands – yes, lockstep – of those who “know” the only true path to political success.

The threads of our Party’s tapestry are many, each contributing their own luster and strength to the whole – the polished experience of the silk, the common sense of the cotton, the inherent fortitude of the hemp, the delicate nuance of the linen, the reliability of the wool.

There are those among us who delight in pointing to the weaknesses of fibers they deem as easily dispensed with, those of no importance to the final product – and their outcries in doing so should be not only be weighed and measured, but scrutinized for the true purpose of their motives.

A house divided against itself cannot stand – and when alleged Democrats go about doing all in their power to divide, you can’t help but wonder what end result they are hoping to achieve – and if that end result has anything at all to do with Democratic Party success, and the possibility of Democratic Party achievement.

When someone encourages you to embrace your fellow Party members who have their sights set on goals common with your own – despite their differences in the way such goals are best realized – you might want to consider that approach.

But when someone encourages you to dismiss out-of-hand any fellow Party members whose approach differs from your own, you might be well-advised to consider their intentions, along with the true purpose of their agenda.

I am a Big Tent Democrat – if such labels are now, as it seems, necessary to be applied. I embrace the caution of the conservative Democrat, the vision of the Liberal Democrat, the soft-of-voice Democrat, the throw-caution-to-the-wind outspoken Democrat, the careful-what-you-wish-for Democrat, the sky’s-the-limit Democrat – all have their place, and their contribution to make.

And I, for one, treasure each viewpoint, and recognize its contribution to the whole – each thread in its proper place, each texture valued for its unique quality, each voice heard and given its proper place in the overall harmony, each opinion considered and added to the mix.

The dismissal of any opinion or political position that doesn’t conform to the current self-proclaimed loom-master’s view of how the Democratic cloth should look in the end result is a lockstepper encouraging locksteppers, and calling themselves anything else is as inherently dishonest as it is laughable - and ultimately dangerous in its ability to divide and conquer those who would otherwise seek to march together on what is truly common ground.


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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good to have you back, my dear Nance...
I have missed your clarity and vision...

Recommended.

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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
30. Thanks, Peggy ...
... but I'm only passing through.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
122. Yes, let me add my thanks also. It's always good to read Nance's writings.
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Oceansaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R...n/t
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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R
Spoken like a true Democrat
Thank You
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
Love this post, Nance.

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Physician, Heal Thyself
I'm not willing to stop thinking and advocating, nor will I send my brain to the cleaners for any "solidarity". My vision of democracy doesn't serve animal products to vegans, nor pork to Arabs or Jews, nor does it insist on preventing the beef-eaters from getting their fill. As long as there are options for all, I am happy to be a Democrat. If one of those options includes removing corporate shills and Blue Dogs and DINOS, then I'm there.

Because you can't be a Democrat by not being democratic.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Anyone who considers solidarity ...
... in order to achieve common goals to be a matter of "sending one's brain to the cleaners" is obviously missing the point - or perhaps their brain has already been washed clean of any thought processes that might include ideas other than their own.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
45. Deleted sub-thread
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
121. Deleted message
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you, Nance. Another thoughtful essay from a smart Democrat. n/t
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have certain minimum standards
the big two (ENDA and DADT repeal) are popular enough that there is no reason for a Democrat not to support, fully, including cosponsership, both bills. Further, I think civil unions are also a minimum standard. Just like I wouldn't vote for a candidate who didn't believe that whites and blacks are equal, or that men and women are equal, I won't vote for candidates who don't think straights and gays are equal. The civil unions thing is a compromise enough.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I, too, have minium standards ...
... the most important of which is to move the country forward - by inches or by miles, as is possible at any given time.

Sometimes standing your ground amounts to standing still - and no progress made is just that: NO progress made.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I am done voting for bigots
I hope I don't have to make that choice, but if I do, make it I will. Having people like that, in public office, with my seal of approval tells every kid I teach, every gay person I talk to, and any gay person who may come after me, that such bigotry is acceptable and that they aren't worth what you are. I won't send that message anymore. None of us would vote for a racist candidate who was against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 so why should I be asked to vote for someone against the gay version of that law? None of us would vote for a candidate who opposed Title IX, so why should I vote for a candidate who opposes ENDA?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. We all must do what as we see fit ...
I only hope you have a good speech prepared for your students and your gay friends when they decry the fact that Republicans newly elected or re-elected to office are diminishing whatever gains have been made on their behalf, and are working tirelessly to ensure that their rights are never fully realized.

No doubt the "I stood on my principles and didn't vote for Democrats" speech will be of great comfort to those who think YOUR principles are far more important than THEIR best political opportunity to be heard.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
55. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #55
64. Deleted message
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
70. +1,000,000
Indeed.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
111. Brava, Nance!! THAT is THE CRUX of it all!! what we who grasp
the inevitablility of incremental change understand is a juxtaposition of WISE STEADY PROGRESS and NO PROGRESS AT ALL - even REGRESSION!!! DANGEROUS regression, especially for lgbtqi...s.

i have tried again and again to express it, but am unable. but here you do, succinctly, emotionally.

thank you, again, for your inspiring voice!!

peace and solidarity, always!!
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MrsCorleone Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
116. Very well said.
Thank you.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. And sometimes standing your ground means you prevent
losing what progress has been made over the years.

Sometimes the choice is between standing still and moving backward and when it is, standing one's ground is just what should be done.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. LOL!
I can't think of anything we had worth perserving pre 2009
that we lost over the last two years....
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Look back over the last 30 years
and you might find a few things.

It's not just in the last 2 years that the Democrats have caved in rather than fight. Or, in the case of the "new Democrats", sold us out to their corporate masters.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. That's ok.....
we will all have new masters soon enough.

Don't know how to thank you for that!

Now, we'll just have to wait for that Revolution....
Think folks will get off their computers to get that done?
Oh....I forgot, Net Neutrality dead due to the 2010 loss of the house.
Oh well....
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
67. Hardly
We lost the house. Now we get to watch the other side tear each other to pieces because their lockstep just got unlocked by teabaggery. I was horrified by last Tuesday but I'm seeing the brighter side now. I think this will strengthen the Democrats. At least I hope it does.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
56. Of course, if we had more true allies, we'd ALL be standing our ground.
Instead of giving in to these phony baloney wordmeisters who say one thing and mean quite another.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #56
126. Nevermind
Edited on Wed Nov-10-10 11:38 AM by terrya
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Well said!
Recommended.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks for this!
Will be sharing with and recommending to those who have been hungry for productive conversation. Well done. And well timed.

K & R
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you, Nance!
Well said!

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SunsetDreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nance, this reminder is so needed. K&R
We all have common goals, and I think we would do well to remember that as Democrats.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. There was a time ...
... when we didn't need reminding. How unfortunate those days seem so distant now.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. Thanks for focusing
on what really counts. Sure some of us are disappointed, but look at the alternative that seized the House and some Senate seats. There are corporate oriented Democrats, but in the Republican sphere of influence there is no room for raising living standards for the working class.
This will be passed far and wide, at least as far and wide as my address book.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am no longer a 'Big Tent Democrat'

Instead haveing read your essay I am changing to a 'Big Tapestry Democrat'. Love the image and think that it is a much better representation of who we are when we are at our best.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. A true student of history is, above all, honest
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Outstanding!
K&R :kick:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks Nance
:thumbsup:
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-10 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. kick and rec
:hug:
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. you'd have a point if you'd harp at the insulting "moderates" as well
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
28. A bunch of mixed threads sometimes just yields a meaningless gray. nt
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Rincewind Donating Member (682 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
29. Well said. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Perhaps precision of language is beyond your ken.
I spoke very specifically of the "self-proclaimed progressives, extreme liberals, far leftists (who) have been divisive within our party ...", not the actual left, of which I am a part - and an extreme leftist by most people's measure.

There is a vast difference between those who are and those who claim to be - a difference that too many here have failed to recognize.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. This person has especially failed to recognize the difference.
If they can't beat you with a logical, reasoned response, they curse you out.

Yeah, that's working.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. You're a part of the "actual left"? Where do you stand on the elimination of capital?
"an extreme leftist by most people's measure"? Where do you stand on Single-Payer?

Are you willing to come back to the US to fight with unions and communists to re-appropriate the resources of the owner-class in the face of their attempt, with the collusion of the government, both Republican and Democrat, and Joe Lieberman, to leverage the power of globalization and outsourcing in order to yank all claim to a share of the resources of the nation out of the hands of the general population (gen. pop., if you will) and into the hands of the capitalist ownership class on the basis of a philosophy of ownership rights based upon the the "liberal" revolution that had the effect of yanking the serfs, peasants, and campesinos of the world off their lands so that they could be made even more destitute and desperate—in order to make their labor available not only to the landlords of the old feudal system but also to make them desperate enough to sell their labor in the factories and now the call-centers and A/P offices and whatnot... with no guarantee that they would even get the sharecropper's guarantee of at least food and a roof...

Or, maybe you don't know what "an extreme leftist by most people's measure" really means? Maybe you think a bunch of suburbanites is the definition of "most people"?

Maybe your problem is that you are applying a "precision of language" to an "imprecision of knowledge"... or "narrow breadth of knowledge"... and the result merely looks like a failing of "precision of language" on your part... when you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

In any case... when you justify three "distinctions" of "moderates" and label all others of the Democratic Party "extremist left wingers"... I have to say, you pretty well label yourself as someone who "claims to be" ... "an extreme leftist by most people's measure".

Yes... I'm saying the dissonance between what you say... and what you say... leads me to judge you to be a "self-proclaimed progressive..." If you mean to try to re-define the critics of the Obama administration, critics from the left, as "self-proclaimed progressives"... then all you are doing is trying to re-define progressive— as not-progressive.

If you want to pretend that "progressive" is used to describe Republican-lite political stances... that is fine. Please stop doing so in public, though. You are embarrassing yourself.

And please... give up the pretense of being "an extreme leftist by most people's measure"... it only goes to show the shallowness of your perception of the idea of "most people".
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Sorry, sweetie ...
... but you're rambling.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Deleted message
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
98. Irony much?
:rofl:
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
128. So, you get to determine what "left" means? How humble of you.
And of course, it means exactly what your beliefs are. Now we are humble AND convenient.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. There you go....
Those who are, and those who claim to be....
I know them in real life...
'lefty leaning progressive'(quote).....with a conservative 'value' system.
Yes...I get it.


peace~
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. "extreme leftist"
:rofl:

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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
85. 2nd that (n/t)
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
104. 3rd it.
:rofl:

What next? NJMav claiming to be "left"?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Deleted message
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Umbral Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Worry not for me Diogenes, I'm the Capybara of malcontents...
That is to say... unless it's Lent, no one gives a fuck.
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
33. K&R. my sister
speaks for me.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
42. You`ve changed my mind. I`m going for that giant tapestry thing.
There really IS room in the Democratic Party for the pro-torture folks. And our leaders SHOULD invite Big Pharma into that special Inside-The-Beltway-Tapestry-Tent whenever the issue of prescription drugs or heath care is pending. In fact, I`m going to get some pom-poms so I can be a better Democrat and start cheering for Bank of America and job outsourcing. And the occupation of Afghanistan? FOUR MORE YEARS! USA! FOUR MORE YEARS!

Maybe I can help get some of these left-leaning loonies over to the Automatic Nod side. I`ll start with form letters to Howard Dean and Jimmy Carter and add a Paul Wellstone quote which I`ll rip to shreds.

The middle is right. President Obama SHOULD reach out to our friends across the aisle (as he did when he called George W. Bush a patriot) and begin every negotiation with a compromise. Get rid of anything the other side might deem even faintly controversial. After all, what`s the point of having principles if you can`t bend them?
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muffin1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. +1,000,000
:thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #42
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. That's exactly the message of the OP.
Sad you cannot see it.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
90. another +1 million
:thumbsup:
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
43. Bravo. Big K&R.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
44. K&R
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
46. I've been watching us tear ourselves apart for quite some time now...
and I have to admit I am baffled at times when I see people who will not accept any progress on what they consider their principle; I think the entire idea of progress is move all of us forward not hold us back or worse, reverse direction.

To be sure, I am a believer in principle, both personal and universal, universal must trump personal though. It matters little if I stand on a single principle while denying the realities of universal principles. I learned long ago that far too often, I can move out of the way for greater common good for all.

Here are a few universal principles:

Equality for all, not just in this nation, but people of all nations, regardless of race, religion, gender or anything else...just simple Equality.

Peace.

An environment we can hand over to the next generation that is better than the one we inherited.

That's just three, but all are universal, something we should all, around the world, agree upon.

Personal principles, well they intertwine with the universal principles, but I don't think my stance on a specific issue should stand in the way of progress. I am pro choice, I am also a male and will never have to face the choices women have making on such things. Am I willing to move a little on this, yes, if womens rights are preserved or we move forward in protecting them. "Partial birth abortion", (something that doesn't really exist), I'm willing to move to say yes, I think that's wrong; if my doing so preserves the basic right of a woman to make a choice earlier and preserve or move closer to equal rights.

I don't believe people should steal, but would I condemn a starving person for stealing a loaf of bread? If universal principles had been the priority, there would be no starving, and the situation would be alleviated, there would be no reason to compel an individual steal that loaf of bread.

How often we seem to fail to understand we are all in this together and while tearing out the throats of our friends, we empower our enemies. So often I see, "well I'm not doing this because....", and I see losses for all of us. If you stand on your principle and everyone else loses, all you've done is regress. Every one has the right to their personal principles. But you exercise your right, and won't allow others to do the same? What kind of action is that, other than selfish and self aggrandizing? The whole, "I want everything right now approach" has always left nothing but disaster in it's wake.

We never need to march lock step in order to reach a goal, but we must keep walking forward, talking as we go as we seek a better society for all. No one should ever be forced to compromise their personal principles, but one should be willing to move a little for greater common good. Think of the power we could wield if we were just a little more flexible. It is amazing that we are, so often, our own worst enemies. This past election we lost the House for several reasons, but one of the most important is that people sat it out, people that could have made a change decided that they just sit and complain. We lost because we did not come together for the greater good...and now, we complain...kind of amazing to watch this happening.

No one should ever expect us all to agree on everything, but we should agree on most or at least some things that's how we make progress.



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ampad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. Beautiful
Edited on Mon Nov-08-10 11:03 AM by ampad
Wish I could rec a post.

Nance, great OP
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. what is terribly sad is any real response or debate is being censored!
Edited on Mon Nov-08-10 12:18 PM by flyarm
and since I was just in East Berlin and stood where the last remains of the Wall are, to come here and see the censorship going on here..it truely leaves me disturbed.

Perhaps some here need to go stand in the Berlin Topography of Terror Museum and read of the censorship the Reich performed quite well, and they would not be so quick to remove debate from our tongues or eyes.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
130. One isn't allowed to criticize the writing of certain DUers.
And yes, it's quite sad.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
106. Thank you for your wise words, my friend ...
Principles are all-important to each of us; I don't think anyone here would argue that point.

But principles without purpose are merely self-satisfying thoughts, and principles not applied to the world at large are, in the end, meaningless.

It seems, all too unfortunately, that some are more than willing to stick to their "principles" and lose every chance to put less-than-perfect representatives in office (and aren't they, and we, all less than perfect?) than to fight for the greater good of us all.

Better a Dem in office who believes in some of my principles than a Republican who believes in none of them.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
49. What's being woven is more a muffler than a tapestry.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
101. Nailed It!
:patriot:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
50. K&R...nt
Sid
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. Well said Nance.
I'd say Especially Well Said considering the swarm action. :toast:

Julie
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R. P. McMurphy Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
52. Proud to K & R . . .
NanceGreggs, you are a consistens source of reason and inspiration. Wish you would post more.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
53. United we stand, divided we fall.
Absolutely outstanding insight into what we have become Nance. It's not pretty, it smacks of me! me! me! and the unity has been lost to single issues. All issues are important, all issues need to be addressed to move this country forward.

Thank you!

K & R
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
57. Must be something in the ether Nancy.. I am on that same thought process K&R
today..

Beautifully written..
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
58. You left out a few -
"I am a Big Tent Democrat – if such labels are now, as it seems, necessary to be applied. I embrace the caution of the conservative Democrat, the vision of the Liberal Democrat, the soft-of-voice Democrat, the throw-caution-to-the-wind outspoken Democrat, the careful-what-you-wish-for Democrat, the sky’s-the-limit Democrat – all have their place, and their contribution to make."

I'm curious . . . how does one embrace the antigay Democrat? Does all that embracing feel the same to you? Do you really expect us to shut up and sit down as we watch our party embracing bigotry and inequality? All in the name of . . . what exactly? Getting offices filled with more antigay bigots? That's supposed to be comforting in some way?

All true Democrats would reject the idea of embracing bigotry. It's antithetical to everything we stand for. Or, am I mistaken?
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BetsysGhost Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
59. This is really about Rahm isn't it
.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. Everything's about Rahm, hon!
:rofl: :spray: :rofl:
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
60. I especially loved this part:
Edited on Mon Nov-08-10 10:24 AM by DevonRex
"A house divided against itself cannot stand – and when alleged Democrats go about doing all in their power to divide, you can’t help but wonder what end result they are hoping to achieve – and if that end result has anything at all to do with Democratic Party success, and the possibility of Democratic Party achievement."

That is so very true. I'm particularly skeptical of those alleged Democrats who make money with their divisive rhetoric and I will not follow them blindly down the road to destruction of this party.

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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. But when I'm on the side of the Party Platform, and they're not -
Who's dividing against whom?
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Well, I"m a member of the party because of the platform.
My thinking is that we have to educate those who don't like certain aspects of it and then they'll change their minds. I think the party needs to do more in the way of education, personally. We could win over so many independents if we just did that.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #61
69. +1000 nt
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
62. du
i've been disappointed with du since the iran elections- thank God for twitter & youtube & now facebook- they were more accepting of peoples efforts to help each other. but with the country getting crazy again- we MUST stick together.if we don't it will be the end of the democratic republic of the USA
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
71. K&R
Thank you Nance!
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WingDinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. Had a coupla locked threads proving your point.
I was attacked as a right wing troll for emphasizing one word in the Con. For Dem purpose. There is no room for diversity. And the seeming fix to incivility is believed to be lockstep. I view it more like a family. You are an idiot. Oh yeah, you are stupid. Hey, whats for dinner tommorrow?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
75. K & R
:thumbsup:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
76. K/R.
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voteearlyvoteoften Donating Member (548 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
77. If you have haters that means you are somebody
My daughter told me that recently when I was bemoaning some relationship issues.
It stuck with me. I have always been a pleaser. Maybe I won't be anymore.
I enjoy Nance rants...embrace the haters...you are someone!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
78. "self-proclaimed progressives, extreme liberals, far leftists"
I love posts like these that do exactly what they complain about. They're among my favorite on DU.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Irony is a Lost Art Around Here
So glad to meet a fellow connoisseur. Truth is the primary victim, however.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
81. I agree. United we stand. Divided we fall.
Now, if you would just unite with ME behind MY issues, all the little problems will disappear.
We will have a united party:

*Medicare for anyone who wants it

*The IMMEDIATE reduction of Military Spending by AT LEAST 50%.

*The immediate break-up (Trust Busting) of everything "Too Big to Fail".

*Fair Competition Legislation that lets Mom&Pop (small locally owned businesses and farms) compete with Big Box and Factory Farms on a level playing field.

*An end to "Free Trade" (Race to the Bottom)

*Organized LABOR and local co-ops.

*An end to the two-tiered Judicial System

*Prosecution of rich American War Criminals and War Profiteers. (Oh yes they did!)

*An END to "Corporate Personhood"

*Strictly Enforced Publicly Financed Elections (severe penalties for criminals)

*Transparent and Verifiable elections (Why isn't this a front burner issue with the Democratic Party?)

*Re-Regulation with strict oversight of Banking/Investment, Transportation, Communications, Trade, Energy, Utilities, Insurance.

*NO Public Money for private Prisons, armed Private Police, armed Defense Contractors, private intelligence agencies or For Profit Health Insurance Corporations.

*Immediate Civil Rights and Equal Protection for ALL. (No Exceptions)

*Free Quality Universal Education to everyone who wants it.

*Strong Social Safety Net and Consumer Protections.

*An end to The Patriot Act and a return to The Constitution (especially Habeas and privacy protections).

*Iron Clad Environmental Protections

*A refutation of the "Unitary Executive", and legislation to ensure it NEVER happens again.

*An END to Republican/Corporate influence INSIDE The Democratic Party !
(NO! They DON"T deserve a seat at the table!)


I welcome you to the fight for traditional Working Class Democratic values!!!
Isn't all this unity wonderful?
:grouphug:


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."

--- Paul Wellstone




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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Many, many pluses, Bvar22
I'd like to see some unity over those things, too. :thumbsup:
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Well, it seems that most people here ...
... have determined that "unity" is over-rated.

Better to split off into thousands of factions, each contingent deciding what issues are the most important to them individually, and their order of priority.

Then the factions can argue with each other endlessly about who is a New Democrat, an Old Democrat, a progressive, a far left progressive, a medium left-to-middle but fiscally conservative-leaning centrist with overtones of some socialist tendencies and just a dash of my-way-or-the-highway 'tude.

I think that's the most efficient way to get everything on your list accomplished.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. NOW you are going to argue AGAINST your OWN OP?

I don't expect to get everything on my list.
However, I WILL fight FOR everything on my list.
I insist on respect for these traditional Democratic values,
AND a seat at the table of the Party asking for my money and votes.
I am a proud FDR Liberal, and I'm NOT afraid to STAND for my traditional Democratic Values.
If you value "unity" above everything else, you better come with me,
because I'm not going to quietly settle for some 1/2 Republican Centrist bullshit.




"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone


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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. I'm not arguing against my own OP.
And I don't think you'd find too many people on DU who don't want everything on that list.

I posted this OP in order to determine what the temperature truly is on DU right now - because what I've been seeing lately is a lot of divisiveness between groups, and those "groups" seem to be getting narrower and narrower in their criteria for inclusion - which leads to another set of "splinter groups" going in the only direction they find acceptable - and so on and so forth.

The feeling here used to be, "You may be a progressive (or centrist, or what-have you), but you disagree with me, a fellow progressive." What is being verbalized now is, "I'm a progressive (or whatever) and if you don't agree with me, then you're not what you claim to be - and you're definitely not 'one of us'."

I find it fascinating that people here seem to be more interested in pigeon-holing other Dems into this group or that - and apply litmus tests to each other as though the pigeon hole one ends up in is the most important thing to be determined, far more important than actually defining common goals (which are many) and working together towards achieving them.

As I've said before, anyone who thinks (and more and more people are expressing this on DU) that they know exactly how progressive, left, centrist, conservative (whatever) another DUer is, is complete folly. No one on this message board has revealed their political stance on every single issue - from capital punishment, to gun control, to election reform, to education reform - the list is endless.

And yet, without having the full picture of someone's political makeup, if I may, labels are tossed around and applied with abandon. And then those labels - appropriately applied or not - are used to support the idea that this group doesn't see eye-to-eye with that group, so let's not even try to work together.

"Let's get rid of the centrists. Let's get rid of the left-leaning moderates. Let's get rid of the lefties who aren't quite left enough. Let's get rid of the true progressives, but not the semi progressives.

Okay, let's do all of that - as so many here seem to be advocating. Now where are we? And how do we go about achieving common goals if we can't even recognize that each "group" has something to contribute to the whole?

Some "groups" think the repeal of DADT is the most pressing challenge we face. Others think it is election reform. Still others think it is education reform. What I'm not seeing of late is anyone saying that ALL of these things are important, their priority as between one faction and another being of much less consequence than actually making strides towards accomplishing any of them as members of the same Party.

From my personal perspective, I have now completely given up on this site coming together as it needs to, if we have any chance to succeed in any area. The infighting is not only at a ridiculous level - it is being fueled and fed by certain people whose only real motive is encouraging as much division between us as possible. And they are succeeding.

I used to wish that the real world was more like DU - now I'm very happy that it's not. I participate on other political message boards (as a lot of DUers do), and while Democrats still fight vociferously over individual issues, priorities, game plans, etc., the divisions here, that exist as great yawning chasms between one self-anointed "group" and another, simply don't exist elsewhere as warring factions that can find no common ground to operate from.

Most DUers have incredibly well-honed skills when it comes to spotting a RW troll. However, too many DUers, IMHO, are anxious to follow anyone who claims to be a progressive, a liberal, the true "base" of the Party, without ever questioning their credentials or their motives.

I can declare myself the Czarina of All Russia on a website - and could probably garner a following of those who long for the return of a Russian monarchy. But saying it doesn't make it so.










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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. If that's the way you see things, so be it.
But to think that DU only consists of two distinct groups is, IMHO, incredibly naive.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #100
119. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #81
96. yeah, gotta love OPs like this
unity...with MY priorities
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #81
115. I'm with you! nt
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
82. K/R
Thanks for this Nance.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
87. The "Purist Progressives" like myself
Are not arguing methods, we are arguing results and goals.

The people who are arguing method are arguing against common democratic goals.

If there's a fracture in our "Big Tent," it's in the fact that people we thought stood with us in principle against Bush are now saying it's all right for President Obama to do the same things(Like Obama's admission that he pushed a Repulican HRC at us in the hopes of making them happy).

There's no real argument here- either we stand for certain things, or we're not Democrats. This isn't a sports event. We don't get points for "Winning" when we capitulate to a Republican worldview.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Exactly! (nt)
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
88. Still grinding that axe I see
Word up from a "far-left extremist"; This country is being pushed ever more rightward with the help of "centrists, conservative Democrats, pragmatists, and incrementalists". Understand, we are at fucking war with an enemy that doesn't compromise. What there is no room for in the big tent is wishy-washy, republican-lite appeasers. Why do you think we just got our asses handed to us?
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
99. Yeppurs, still grinding that axe ...
... the one that needs to be sharp and strong if we are going to wield it to any good purpose.

Dare I mention Feingold and Grayson? That should have been a clue that Democratic politicians - as brilliant as they may be - do not come in a one-size-fits-all Democratic voters configuration.

The politician who is wildly successful in one place can be perceived as "this is NOT what we asked for" in another.

If you're looking for a homogeneous blend of Dem voters across-the-board, you're going to be sorely disappointed every time. We are, as has always been proudly the case, a party that encompasses a vast array of ideas and ideals, each having a contribution to make and a voice that deserves being heard.

If I wanted to lockstep behind one idea, one way of thinking, one type of politician to be supported, one demographic to be catered to, I would be a Republican.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
92. Thank you, Nance
What i've been trying to get put in acerbic dribs and drabs, you've given full and clear voice to.
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Kweli4Real Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
93. Reading this OP, I was struck by a thought ...
I (a non-christian, but follower of, as much I can, of the teaching of Jesus ... and Mohamadd and Ghandi and the Buddha) was recently in a conversation with a devote Christian. The topic ... The Devil is a Lie. In this discussion, my Christian friend told me (and I had read) that the Devil was well versed in Scripture, much more so than the average, or even the learned practicianer of the Faith.

Reading the OP seems to suggest that many/some of the loudest, and most well versed, but divisive voices may ... just may ... be the Devil, i.e., members of the anti-democratic opposition.

While in law school, one of the few lasting lessons taught was in order to argue and win an appeal, one must know one's opponent's argument better than they do ... regardless of the "rightness" of your argument.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
118. Interesting point. Something to bear in mind. nt
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political_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
94. K and R. We need to fight to keep our party together.
We also need to work for the things that make the party who we are.
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
102. I feel like I am reading the script to a Douglas Sirk movie.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. And I feel like I'm reading ...
... the messages to the Customer Complaints Department of the political internetz.

Lots of bitchin', but nothing in the way of solutions - unless, of course, you consider "I'm not speaking to THAT group" as a solution.

I think the only real solution here is for all of us to put everyone else on Ignore - then take the shuttle and nuke the entire planet from space. It's the only way to be sure.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. All the solutions now say "Deleted Message".
It's unfortunate.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. I've read most of the deleted messages ...
... before they were deleted.

I saw no solutions.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
109. Thank you for posting. It is always great to see your name.
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Top Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
110. Thanks Nancy... K&R
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
112. Thanks, Nan... Telling it like is is
As always
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pa28 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
113. You had me going for a few paragraphs.
Sophistry after that.

After telling us earlier in the year that 'you are with us or against us' the 'treasuring every viewpoint' line rings a bit hollow when taken with the scope of your editorial.

Oh well. I hated this particular one but the credit goes to those willing to enter the arena.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
114. well said
Of course, it is interesting to hear republicans say this of themselves, and assert that we are the ones of ideological uniformity....
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
117. KnR
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
120. Excellent OP, Nance. Unity, not Purity should be the goal. n/t
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
123. In 2008 I don't remember the pro-Hillary viewpoints being treasured
By this author or throughout DU. We lost literally thousands of valuable contributors, often taunted in threads or schemed against in desperate and juvenile ignore lists.

DU is a lesser place as a result, not my first stop.

Many of the arguments were extremely valid, like why are we obsessed with an Iraq vote when economic policy and bottom line will overwhelm all other variables combined during the forthcoming presidency, and perhaps dictate how Democrats are viewed for the foreseeable? That was my theme. I preferred a family with demonstrated strength.

Regardless, I appreciate this OP, although it appears a bit reluctant and rusty, like a first game after a long layoff.

If demographics and voting trends from district to district were as publicized and well known as completion percentages and batting averages, it wouldn't be as fashionable to reject.



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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
124. A good post but I can't agree with all of it
the "Blue Dogs" are nothing resembling what the Democratic Party ideals are (or should be)

The corporatist swing to the right has damaged the party, perhaps irreparably.

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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
125. To Make Something Out of Whole Cloth
I get it. Very clever. Shakespearean, even.
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mstinamotorcity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
127. Great OP Ms Nance
I am not opposed to like minds in thought,but at what time do the Democratic Party act as the Party of notable difference??? I am not saying that we should act like some weird creature from outer space.Its just that if we do as republicans do then we are no different. We have elected a President for change and yet as we expect CHANGE in the Washington D.C. Culture and will not address the responsibility to bring forth CHANGE in themselves. This is not to criticize,but to make an observation and question its results. If we know the truth and still operate as though it wasn't known then aren't we just placating our own adversities. If we know that they are for suppressed wages,de-regulations,false Wall Street products,no Health care,Dead peasants policies,Big oil,the Bush tax cuts for the top 2%,and all other forms of legal thievery,why do we still Commerce with them? Why do we still except and live as though we have no choice but to be with their economy and their values. Yes we may voice outrage,but what action??? Are we still investing? Are we seeking out businesses that practice fair work environments? Are we elevating those institutions that practice the business share programs where everyone including the boss has equal say and wages??Just what are we doing different to engage our party to the rest of the world as the Party of brilliant,bright ideas,of CHANGE?? I love my Democratic Party for its diversity in lots of walks of life. But I will be glad when our difference from Republicans is noticeable in more productive way!!!!
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
129. K&R
:kick:

:hug:
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