Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Should Obama put BP under receivership?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU
 
Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:21 AM
Original message
Should Obama put BP under receivership?
I posted this, by Robert Reich, late last night in Editorials.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I don't know the legality of such a move, but it would make sense to seize their North American assets before they can be paid out in dividends, bonuses, and otherwise moved offshore.

In the article, Reich said that Obama would need the legal authority to do it. However, I'm inclined to believe that he already has the power that was granted to Bush to do just about any damn thing he wants to do in a State of Emergency. I don't think that anyone can argue that this is not a widening national emergency. Under such a scenario, the government would actually be in charge, and still have the access to all the BP experts.

I just wonder if he has the guts to bite the hand that feeds him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just start the EPA enforcement process, already! Fines are $1000/bbl spilled. We'll end up owning
BP - every lock, stock, and toxic barrel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. I wonder if Eric Holder's presence there may have some tangential
association with EPA enforcement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. DOJ lawyers would have to argue the case in US District Court when and if EPA decides to issue an
order. So, yes, this would be more than tangential.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. First, that's one angle as to why BP vastly underestimated the oil volume.
Price per barrel in penalties weighs heavily. Second thing: computer analysis of underwater oil plumes poses calamitous civil and possible criminal liabilities for BP. No wonder Hayward refuses to acknowledge their existence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. More like under arrest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well, they are people after all.
A new subsidiary. BP Gitmo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. But Obama already said
the government is in charge, and have the access to all the BP experts, so why try to put BP is receivership?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. As Professor Reich says:
The Obama administration keeps saying BP is in charge because BP has the equipment and expertise necessary to do what's necessary. But under temporary receivership, BP would continue to have the equipment and expertise. The only difference: the firm would unambiguously be working in the public's interest. As it is now, BP continues to be responsible primarily to its shareholders, not to the American public. As a result, the public continues to worry that a private for-profit corporation is responsible for stopping a public tragedy.
The difference is that BP would no longer be working in the interest of its shareholders. BP would then get its orders from the Federal government. This move would also eliminate the prospect that BP would try to shut the well on the cheap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. "I just wonder if he has the guts to bite the hand that feeds him"
And what "hand" would that be?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I believe he means BP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yes, I believe that's what he means, but if so, then both of you are wrong
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Well, that does shade things a bit.
I know that corporations will often "ask" their employees to contribute to a candidate with offers of reimbursement. That loophole in campaign finance reform has yet to be closed. However, in direct application to BP's financing of Obama/Democratic campaigns - there is no smoking gun connecting BP employees as the Wassilla Hillbilly claims.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. Due process???
Ever heard of such a concept? How do you propose to use due process to do this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sadly ironic, isn't it?
The same people who complained that Bush acted like a dictator are now complaining because Obama is not acting like a dictator!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Not the same.
The original idea proposed that Obama use powers granted to him in the Constitution and through laws passed in accordance with the Constitution's intended authority during times of crisis. Bush's supposed authority was staked on claims that were outside the circumscribed Constitutional powers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Major difference.
Bush wanted to use the powers against the citizenry. Lock us up, no habeus corpus, etc.

However it may be used against a corporate felon, who killed 12 people that day. 29 on another occasion, and many more including the overthrow of Iran's democratically elected government. A corporation that feels no obligation but to earn dividends and bonuses.

BP was neck deep in the Exxon Valdez. People still haven't been compensated for damages there.

There are existing statutes right now, RICO, whereby all of their assets can be seized right now, for running a continuing criminal enterprise. There is also no statute of limitations under RICO.

I don't think acting in a matter to save our environment, and our economy is "acting like a dictator". You can talk abstractions all day long, but these are specific charges and incidents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution
The "necessary and proper" or Elastic Clause has direct application to issues concerning national emergencies. The power to assume control of this operation and its resources for resolving it can be placed either with the President or with an officer who serves under the President.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. U.S.CODE - TITLE 50 > CHAPTER 34—NATIONAL EMERGENCIES
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Exactly. You make the point that the power exists but then there is the legal
Edited on Tue Jun-01-10 08:12 AM by ozymandius
limbo concerning BP. The original position that remains unaddressed concerns how the Executive will act.

From your link:
§ 1631. Declaration of national emergency by Executive order; authority; publication in Federal Register; transmittal to Congress

When the President declares a national emergency, no powers or authorities made available by statute for use in the event of an emergency shall be exercised unless and until the President specifies the provisions of law under which he proposes that he, or other officers will act. Such specification may be made either in the declaration of a national emergency, or by one or more contemporaneous or subsequent Executive orders published in the Federal Register and transmitted to the Congress.
Specificity. And a generous amount of will. That's what we need to see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Interesting Discussion but ultimately academic
First of all it Does not stop the oil.
Secondly it would only have the effect of making some folks feel better with no other short term value.
Thirdly it would be cast as a tremendous overreach by a "Socialist President".


The Due Process argument is incredibly important one. You can't do that until and unless BP refused to pay for the cleanup.


It is not remotely possible until BP begins to argue that their liability is limited.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. From DailyKos
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/1/871866/-Robert-Reich:-Put-BP-into-temporary-receivership
Reich refers to Administration deference to BP, for having the equipment and technical expertise to address the crisis, but says that under receivership that equipment and technical expertise would be serving the public good and not BP's shareholders. He lists five solid reasons for this seemingly drastic but increasingly necessary move.

...BP's stunning dishonesty and irresponsibility have completely undermined its credibility, with the public. And it just keeps getting worse. The Obama Administration can continue to allow BP to undermine its own credibility, or it can take control, once and for all. By taking control of BP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
20. Yes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. All anyone needs to do is look at the lawsuits being filed on BP & you know it must happen!
BP hit by avalanche of compensation claims over US oil spill
Business owners claim company ignored evidence of broken seal on Deepwater Horizon well
Andrew Clark in New York guardian.co.uk, Monday 31 May 2010 18.52 BST Article history

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/31/bp-compensation-claims-us-oil-spill

While work continues to try to staunch the flow of oil into the Gulf of Mexico, an avalanche of class action lawsuits is descending upon BP in courthouses from Texas to Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi and Florida.

The suits include claims for loss of earnings, loss of enjoyment or property, or for bereavement suffered by families of the 11 workers killed when BP's Deepwater Horizon rig caught fire and sank on 30 April.

BP has pledged to meet all "legitimate claims". But after the failure of the company's attempted "top kill" fix at the weekend, financial analysts fear the cost could become astronomical if oil continues to flow into the Gulf for weeks to come.

Estimates of the potential cost of the spill vary widely. Including the clean-up, compensation and fines, UBS has suggested BP could face a bill of $12bn (£8.25bn). Jason Kenney, an analyst at ING Commercial banking, increased his estimate of the cost from $5.3bn to up to $22bn if the spill continues until August....

Mark Lanier, a Houston-based lawyer for one group of plaintiffs, said the litigation against BP would make the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska look like "an oil leak in a car".

"Honestly, this is a monstrosity, it's a tragedy," he told Texas Lawyer magazine. He said it might become the biggest legal battle in US history. "This is going to be, in my estimation, the largest tort we've had in this country."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. They absolutely need to do something to stop them from transferring ownership of assets
until all claims against them are settled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-01-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. Nationalizing BP is not a good idea.
Edited on Tue Jun-01-10 11:54 AM by ProSense
Mark Thoma:

<...>

I've wondered if BP's attempts to close off the leak also try to preserve the ability to tap the well again in the future. Are there other things that could be tried that might work better, but make it impossible to use the well again (and hence are last resort measures from the company's point of view, but no the public's)? Perhaps that's not the case, I don't have enough technical expertise to assess the options, maybe the public relations fallout, prospects of fines, lawsuits, etc., make the company do all it can to stop the leak in any case. But it's hard not to wonder given the present structure of responsibility for stopping the leak (including limits on financial responsibility). If the government were to takeover until the leak is stopped, this worry would be lessened (as would others).

However, if the administration does take over, then it will also take over responsibility for what happens. If the well continues to leak until August, and if the administration has taken BP into receivership, the administration will take the direct blame. It has that problem now, of course, the blame will be there in any case, but presently BP absorbs some of the fallout from the failed attempts to plug the leak and the administration can at least try to deflect some of the blame in BP's direction. If the administration takes over, it also takes full responsibility from that point forward, and it's not clear they want that, especially given the present prospects for stopping the leak (though, again, do we know the full spectrum of options, no matter how costly they are?).

So, in general, it's unlikely that an administration will want to take over a company when the problems are particularly hard to solve. It will take over when quick victory is assured, but why take the political risk when the problems are really hard? Better to blame the company.

I'm struggling a bit with this one. I am not very comfortable recommending a take over. I don't feel like I've thought it through enough to call for a government take over of BP, such take overs should be last ditch measures to prevent severe damage (which may justify a takeover in this case). They should not become government habits. I'd prefer that the prospects of charges for damages, fines from the EPA, lawsuits from people whose livelihood depends upon the fisheries, and so on give BP an unambiguous incentive to stop the leak as soon as possible, that its life would be just as threatened as the life in the gulf is threatened if the leak is not plugged relatively soon. There would still be a need for strict government oversight, and it would be important that the government have the authority to force or prevent certain actions and to force disclosure of information. But at least I'd be more sure that the company is doing everything it possibly can -- devoting every possible resource (and asking for government help if more resources are needed) -- to getting this fixed as soon as possible. However, it's not at all clear that the company has these incentives, and even if it did, I would still have doubts about its actions.

<...>


Here's a comment:

A federal takeover of the task of killing the well is a really, really bad idea. Nobody employed by the federal government has any of the required technical or managerial expertise. If the Coast Guard, or NOAA, or EPA, or MMS, or an ad hoc team of USG employees were suddenly in charge, the first thing they would have to do is to bring on board people who know what they're doing, and all of those people--all of them--work in the private sector. Odds are, several weeks after the takeover, and the interim stand-down, the new government honcho would discover that BP already has a pretty good team and is working every conceivable approach in parallel--as it should. Suppose some of these experts take advantage of the shift to bail instead of going to work for the government? Will they and the new honcho have to comply with government procurement regulations? Will they get anything done before the intercept wells make their efforts moot?

What would make sense is to have government officials who have to approve BP's actions embedded in the technical teams, so they know what's going on, what's being considered, the risk assessments that are being made, etc. and are able to quickly approve action plans because they already know what's in them by the time they get formally presented. Do we know that's not happening already? I suspect it is happening. For USG to get more deeply involved than that does nobody any good, least of all USG's reputation.

Unlike Katrina, where USG (especially military) actually did have useful assets, manpower, and expertise, USG has nothing to contribute to BP's well kill problem. Unlike Three Mile Island, where probably nobody had any expertise, BP and especially its private contractors actually know a great deal about the various ways of controlling a blowout. Their problem is that nobody has had to do it in this depth of water, and they have to extrapolate and guess and use trial and error, but even with that handicap they are way, way ahead of whomever might be on the B Team.

The only part of this mess USG should even consider "taking over" is the coastline clean-up. USG may actually have more expertise in that than BP does and may through Emergency Mgmt Service have ways of quickly mobilizing resources. But first, let's ask what's actually going on. In many areas, cleanups are prepared for and conducted by industry consortia which train for cleanups and immediately put expertise and resources from multiple companies to work. But it may that in this case the oil company resources are overwhelmed.

It's a terrible situation, but that doesn't mean we can't make it worse by panicky intervention.



Reich (from his piece) clearly knows this is about appearances and semantics:

The Obama administration keeps saying BP is in charge because BP has the equipment and expertise necessary to do what’s necessary. But under temporary receivership, BP would continue to have the equipment and expertise. The only difference: the firm would unambiguously be working in the public’s interest.


He is advocating that the government nationalize to become legally responsible.

The President is not legally in charge. As long as BP is not under the direct control of the government he has no direct line of authority, and responsibility is totally confused.


Why on earth would the government want to become legally responsible for an effort that will be in the hands of BP, and the solution will likely take months to materialize?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion: Presidency Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC