At some point do we need to get back to "Buy American"???

[KansasVoter]

I guess Buy American is not in fashion anymore. But at some point are we going to lose all our real jobs to China.
Why is it no one except some Dems can see that we need to start making stuff in this country and stop letting China work people to death and sell polluted stuff?
Is this a fight that can;t be won anymore?

[vaberella]

1. This is what I agree with and we'll kill two birds with one stone. We'll destroy Walmart.

I see this as a good thing. Buy American and support our small businesses. Very simple. We'll prosper economically.

Actully a great way is to have people invest in small businesses all over the nation. Kind of like those whole foods/natural food groceries or community banks. Someone owns a small business but he has local investors....I like it. <---We get too eliminate wall street this way too. ^_^

[paulsby]

24. based on the erroneous assumption that

"eliminating wall street" is a good thing

[vaberella]

29. I never saw the need for it on the economic base.

It's mainly a place for hedging funds. If you're looking from just a solely investment stand point it's unnecessary...just a middle man. I'm not running on any populist meme here or any negative or positive feelings about wallstreet in lieu of recent events---which is what I think you might be thinking I'm running on.

[paulsby]

36. it's the greatest price discovery mechanism

known to man. the stock market. if by "wall street" , you mean the market, and the market necessarily NEEDS market makers, brokers etc. to RUN, then yes - wall street is an essential part of our nation

recent events. a bubble crashed. big surprise. that's happened many times since capital markets were invented : see dutch tulip bulb frenzy, and has happened in probably every asset class from gold to real estate to silver to stocks to junk bonds to tulips.

the stock market is (i repeat it because it's important) the greatest price discovery method known to man. with no centralized control, it is the ULTIMATE democratic institution. when i'm an order in the book, i'm just that - no race, gender, ethnicity, class etc. known to the system (i trade futures also fwiw).

[vaberella]

58. That's a valid point. n/t

[boppers]

60. Trading is the mechanism. Wall Street, however, is obsolete and dangerous cruft.

Those are two very different things. What began as a trading system morphed into another gambling system where everybody but the house eventually loses... what people want to get rid of isn't the trading, it's the house rules that shaft all but the biggest players.

[paulsby]

62. rubbish

everybody but the house does NOT lose.

i've "won", in that my investments have done quite well, and i work with plenty of people in the same boat

[boppers]

64. What did the house (the system) make off of you?

How much in commissions, fees, access, (etc.) did they take, for merely being the house?

In any gambling house, there are, indeed, a great number of people who make money, and a great number of people who lose money... but ultimately, the only thing guaranteed to make money is the house, regardless of player wins and losses.

[paulsby]

66. not much

my discount broker charges $1 per trade (100 shares or less).

i buy 100 shares of a $50 stock, that is $1 to buy and $1 to sell

that's 2/5000 in commission as percentage of notional value: or .04%

that's pretty fricken cheap

as for the bid/ask spread, i usually buy the bid and sell the ask. as long as it's not a scalp, i can let the market come to me.

hth

fwiw, this wasn't true in the past. a few decades ago, the same trade could cost TWENTY (or more dollars)

and prior to decimalization, the spreads were much wider

the stock market works

for all of us who participate

hth

[boppers]

67. I'm going to set up a discount ISP where I only charge a dollar per email...

For one low price, you can send an email, or receive an email, for only a dollar each, regardless of the size of the email.

It's a bargain over the costs of FedEx!

:evilgrin:

[paulsby]

68. historically speaking, it si a bargain

like i said, a DISCOUNT broker (so called) were charging $20 + PER TRADE

it truly was a "rich man's game" (trading) and even investing in stocks was generally not cost effective for the small investor

the fact that you can buy 5,000 worth of a company (think about that!) for ONE DOLLAR of commission is insane

do you want to compare with real estate, for example?

the transaction costs are TINY.

i trade futures, fwiw, a lot, and even with my volume i only get just under $4 a round trip per contract.

blech.

you compare this to almost any other kind of major transaction, and it's a phenomenal bargain.

even better, with electronic 2 way uaction markets like the nasdaq uses etc. it is a truly democratic system (no specialist).

stocks are a phenomenal opportunity for people

average americans can and do build substantial wealth with them. my grandfather did, my dad did, and i am.

i am a working class guy, andit's great that it's available to me

and anybody else with a little cash and a desire to participate in a great nation's companies

[boppers]

72. But you're not actually buying or selling anything material...

That was why I used email as my example. It's all about electronic signals flying back and forth, which costs fractions of pennies.

[paulsby]

73. and when you consider all the accounting that has to be done

and that it is done nearly seamlessly, it's a great deal.

every once in a while, they have to break a trade

i've had one trade broken in years of day trading and investing

oh, and i made a typo. it's $2 to buy and sell 50k worth of a company, not 5k.

that's a phenomenal opp.

and like i said, it's MUCH cheaper to do it now than it has ever been in history (transaction cost wise)

[PassingFair]

80. Wall Street should serve the real economy.

The economy should NOT be serving Wall Street.

Wall Street should be funding business.

We should NOT be bailing Wall Street out for its
own purposes.

Things have been turned upside down for the
"benefit" of the "investors" at the expense
of the workers.

[Jackeens]

2. So long as you buy....

too.

:shrug:

[Elwood P Dowd]

3. One heart for that.

Sadly, until the American people wake the hell up, this fight can't be won.

[dmallind]

4. Some facts

The US IS (not should be) the biggest manufacturing country by at least 50%

China with four to five times the population manufactures approx 2/3 the value of goods we do.

China imports more as a percentage of GDP than we do.

The stupid idea that we do not "make stuff" is the sign of an idiotic mind that has no regard for facts.

[KansasVoter]

5. Links please!

[golfguru]

17. Links are not necessary for widely known facts

For example US consumes more power per capita than any major country.
Us eats better than any major country.
People in US have bigger and better homes than any major country.
People in US have more phones & TV's & autos than any major country.

The homes, electricity, food etc are mostly made here, not imported.

[Donnachaidh]

19. links ARE necessary if requested

it's rude to automatically say no if someone makes a request.

[golfguru]

22. Links are not readily available for widely known facts in a nice

concise manner. Find me a link which says Amazon has bigger water flow than the Ganges.

[amandabeech]

10. Okay, so why do we have a huge trade deficit and China doesn't?

I'm awaiting your reply.

Also, please divulge your personal interest in continuing the current trade imbalance with the rest of the world.

[golfguru]

14. Because we buy more imports than we export...duh

But the total imports are just a fraction of what we consume as individuals
and corporations. The standard of living in US is very high so we consume a lot.

Some glaring examples of our consumption: Our homes are the biggest and best in
the world and they are not imported. Our food is more abundant than any major country
except perhaps Argentina, we eat better than every other country, our restaurants serve
bigger portions than any country I have visited (over 20) and at cheaper price! We consume
enormous amounts of electricity....all locally made.

[amandabeech]

30. I'm waiting for the other guy to come up with some defense of his position.

Not you. I already know the answer or I wouldn't ask the question.

[Elwood P Dowd]

32. A new member with a name "golfguru" should tell you something.

He gets his talking points from his brainwashed republican buddies at the country club.

[golfguru]

35. Actually I play at a golf club where most members are blue collar

and life long democrats. It is in a small town of Washougal, WA where the paper mill
is the biggest employer and we have more than half members from the mill. I got
to tell you something about avid golfers. We always have a great time on the golf
course and no body cares about your professional/monetary status. If you are not a
golfer, you should take it up. You will meet mostly people who are fun company.

[dmallind]

44. because we import more too. We have more money to do so.

Why do you think a trade deficit and a huge manufacturing output are mutually exclusive? We can manufacture TEN times as much as country X but if we also have enough purchasing power to buy their exoprts more than they can buy ours we will have a trade deficit with them,

CIA World Factbook is a good reference BTW.

[golfguru]

12. Bravo....for shedding light on the facts....eom

[rhett o rick]

28. they didnt back up their facts. Links plez. nt

[dmallind]

45. CIA world factbook. WTO. UN. Take your pick. They are not "my" facts. We don't get our own.

Facts are facts.

[On the Road]

15. I Think the US and China are Pretty Close in Total Manufacturing

A huge amount of the Chinese GDP is in exports -- something like a third -- and those exports are supported by a lot of imports. So you might be right about Chinese imports but it would be good to see the numbers on both those issues. I looked up some similar statistics recently for another thread but can't find the post.

People are indeed under the misimpression that manufacturing is dead in the US, but not because they're idiots. They're just not experts and hear it constantly repeated, including by people they believe are knowledgable.

[dmallind]

49. Nope - over 600 billion difference. CIA World Factbook. UN. WTO. take your pick. NT

[On the Road]

54. You are Correct

$1.8T for the US and $1.1T for China.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-top-manufacturing-countries.htm
http://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2008/09/23/top-manufacturing-countries-in-2007/

I must have been thinking of exports, where China just passed the US this year.

[dmallind]

56. Really NOT trying to be pedantic (it's just natural...;) )

but unless I'm way wrong China just passed Germany this year for #1 in exports. USA has been #3 for a few years I think, and remains so. But close enough.

Did you bnotice by the way that China actually imports more as a percentage of GDP than we do?

[On the Road]

59. Exports by Country from Wikipedia:

1 China $ 1,194,000,000,000 2009 est.
2 Germany $ 1,187,000,000,000 2009 est.
3 United States $ 994,700,000,000 2009 est.
4 Japan $ 516,300,000,000 2009 est.
5 France $ 456,800,000,000 2009 est.
6 Netherlands $ 397,600,000,000 2009 est.
7 Italy $ 369,000,000,000 2009 est.
8 South Korea $ 355,100,000,000 2009 est.
9 United Kingdom $ 351,300,000,000 2009 est.
— Hong Kong $ 326,900,000,000 2009 est.

(Some of the other Top 10 are interesting, too -- actually everything below Japan.)

On the import side:

GDP($M)	
    United States	 14,441,425 
    China	          4,327,448 
    Germany	          3,673,105 
	
Imports ($M)	
    United States	 $1,445,000 
    Germany	         $1,022,000 
    China	           $921,500 
	
Import % of GDP	
    US	                        10%
    China	                24%
    Germany	                28%

So Germany is higher than either China or the US, presumably due to free trade in the EU.

I figured that many of China's imported goods are used as components of products that are subsequently exported. Apparently 38% of Chinese imports are this type of "processing trade." Strange that even after accounting for this, China still imports more than the US.

[dmallind]

69. Well done. It really is amazing how much different facts are from perceptions! NT

[On the Road]

75. Well, I Had to Check the Numbers

because you didn't provide any and I misremembered the manufacturing ones.

Now, consider this: Everyone knows the yuan is undervalued and is not set by market forces. If it were valued fairly in relation to the US Dollar and the Euro, how would that change those relationships?

[rhett o rick]

27. I would love to see your links to your facts. Do you count them manufacturing by Japanese companies

in America as American made? I would estimate that 90% of the products I see are made in China. Try to buy from LLbean or anyone like that. Love to see your facts.

[pampango]

37. " Do you count them manufacturing by Japanese companies in America as American made?"

Interesting question. Another one - "Do you count manufacturing by American companies in China as Chinese made?"

[rhett o rick]

38. I thought you were teaching us the facts. Now you are asking questions.

You gave some facts above. I really would like to see the sources. This is an important issue.

[dmallind]

47. CIA world Factbook. UN. WTO. Take your pick

You see things amde in China because you buy consumer items at relatively low price points. When was the last time you shopped for production machinery, high tech capital equipment, aircraft, etc? We make high value high dollar items. What we make and export is also in the same sources since you'd love to see them.

[dmallind]

48. Of course it is counted. Should American companies manufacturing in China count?

Why is the answer different (assuming you say no to my question. If not there is no more problem as WFOE's have produced most of China's growth)?

[NYC_SKP]

6. Yes, ten years ago. It was framed "racist" or "xenophobic"...

...somehow, I always encouraged buying American.

[amandabeech]

13. That is the most ridiculous use of the charge of racism that I have ever heard.

And I think that here on DU I've heard them all.

[NYC_SKP]

23. Well.

You can blame the people who called people "racist" if they said, "we can't send jobs to Mexico" with Nafta and Gatt.

If you didn't hear such things, that's not my problem and it's not very civil to call another's experience "ridiculous".

Have a good evening.

[amandabeech]

31. Obviously, I have not made myself clear.

I think that people who scream "racism" at folks, who didn't want to send jobs to Mexico and don't want to send them anywhere else through any trade agreement or GATT, are the ridiculous ones.

Not you.

I don't doubt that you have seen and heard people make those ridiculous charges.

I think that those who scream "racism" at just about any statement that they don't like are ridiculous themselves.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Oh, my bad.

I should have understood that you meant them, not me.

There was a time in the SF Bay Area that some folks I worked and played with thought I was a bit old-fashioned in my defense of unions and blue collar workers and American-made goods. They associated my attitude with conservatives.

It sounds weird, they were new-age, new world, everything's beautiful, types who didn't see the corporate stranglehold growing and it's global reach.

And, even today, one has to be careful about complaining about jobs going to other countries.

One attitude is that those countries, those cultures, need the trade, they need the jobs.

Well, they do now, now that we took them out of their agrarian existences to work in sweatshops and live in squalor.

Anyway, sorry bout that!

:pals:

[amandabeech]

34. No problem.

:hi:

I've taken a lot of grief over the years by advocating for working Americans, too.

Sometimes I think that progressives really don't like Americans who get their hands dirty or are just not cut out for life behind a desk.

I've said for years, you can lay people off from the jobs but you can't lay them off from citizenship.

There have to be decent jobs for all.

You're right, too, about the sweatshops, and don't forget the ecological degradation that goes with them. It's not fair to pass all that bad stuff off just to save a buck on a frying pan.

[spoony]

55. Still is.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been accused--here--of thinking that Asians don't deserve jobs or that they're not people etc etc for supporting US manufacturing. Fortunately it's usually the same posters, but the meme lives on.

[Captain Hilts]

7. Because idjits keep blaming NAFTA for China taking all our jobs away. nt

[Captain Hilts]

8. I try really hard to do so. nt

[amandabeech]

11. Please support your position. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

20. Bill's Khakis, made in USA. Electronics are tough. I ALWAYS check where things are made. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

9. I make every attempt to buy American.

My car was made in California. My veggies are all made and packaged in the Midwest. My pineapples come from an exotic land in the Pacific called Hawaiʻi. There are only a few items that I purchase, namely electronics, that are made in Taiwan, South Korea, or China.

[Historic NY]

16. Nah toyota's & honda's are great....right..

:sarcasm:

come to think of it Levis suck too since they left the states.

[golfguru]

21. YEAH...My olds, saturn & pontiac have 18 years of use

between them and only 1 visit to the repair shop for a minor problem...
the key lock sensor malfunction. No recalls, no other malfunctions, no
other breakdowns.

[gimama]

18. Heck, Yeah! I made some personal commitments

& choices.. haven't bought new clothes in maybe 5 years.. I bought 2 pair o' Levi's at Sears, (who REALLY support the Troops).. but 1 pair o' Levi's were made in Viet Nam, the other in Cambodia.. THAT made me smile, some.

Almost anything I need ('course my needs are simple) can be found at resale shops or consignment shops, from clothing to books.. In these shops, I am always awed at the ABUNDANCE..

I BELIEVE IN "VOTING with your dollars".. only spending in small mom-n-pop, LOCAL businesses.. selection may be limited, may cost a little more..but WELL worth it..I have some wonder-full, personal encounters in those little stores..& even some of those struggling businesses will quickly lose my little bizness, with a rude, racist, or republicker remark.

walmart is evil. In 20+ years, I have only shopped at 1, once..& still feel a little twinge-y about it.. but my Son took me for a spontaneous, late-night fishin' trip to the Gulf Coast..we needed a few necessities,(ie,lighter fluid,coffee)at 3 a.m. Now, THAT was an adventure! And the Camping and Fishing were amazing, too!

I quit driving when * became guvnor o' texas.. calls for some compromises, planning, creative thinking.. but I enJOY *not* participating in that way.. and utilizing public transit is goood stuff.

There is a movement of "non-participation in consumerism", where People commit to NOT spending at ALL, except for food, medicine, housing & utilities. I like the idea.. & mostly do that.

And I feeel like the Queen o' Paradise, these days.

[Elwood P Dowd]

25. US manufacturing as a percentage of GDP has fallen dramatically.

It's now about 20%, where is was close to 30% back in the 1950s. China's is increasing and is now probably close to 35%. Our current account deficits are running running over half a trillion a year, and millions of jobs have been exported. US corporations initially embraced the race to the bottom in manufacturing, but now they're doing it in high tech, customer support, accounting, tech support, medical records, and a host of other areas. Shipping our factories to places like China and Mexico was just the beginning. Corporate greed that started with manufacturing has now opened a huge can of "whoop ass" on the American worker.

[gmoney]

26. Happy to...

But I see so few things made here when I shop.

Clothing and household items, I see virtually nothing made here.

I buy a lot of books, which are increasingly printed in China or Canada, despite being products of American publishers.

I buy camera equipment from time to time. Very little made in USA, except some lighting products (Photogenic, Paul C. Buff) seem to be made here still.

I still buy some CDs and DVDs, some of which might still be made here, but if I want a certain title, I don't have much choice over where it's made.

Computer stuff, electronics... good luck finding something made in USA.

Often it's hard to tell where food comes from, especially at restaurants or fast food joints.

My Honda was made in Marysville, Ohio, but I'm told that doesn't count because it's not a union plant. So I could buy a GM car largely made in Canada or Mexico and that's somehow better?

Put a "Made in USA" sticker on stuff, and if it's remotely competitive in price, I'll buy it every time.

[polichick]

39. The trick is to get Americans to buy fewer things...

Say one American-made shirt instead of six shirts from Walmart.

In America, MORE STUFF RULES.

[madmom]

46. What if you can only afford one shirt at walmart? What do you do then?

[polichick]

51. Well, that's a problem. Wonder if there are any Made-in-America resale shops...

I know a lot of people who'd shop those - from college kids to retirees.

[madmom]

57. That would be great, but around here resale shops call themselves "vintage clothing shops" thinking

that they can justify charging more than price for new. Goodwill and thrift shops work for us.

[quiller4]

70. Buy a better shirt, possibly USA made, at a local consignment shop

for less than the Walmart price.

[madmom]

74. see post #57

[DrToast]

40. Go for it: http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

Nobody is stopping you.

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/

[polichick]

41. I heard about this site on Big Ed's show - love the segment when people call in...

...about their small businesses.

[DrToast]

42. The best part is that stuff made in the USA is almost always better quality

It may not be as cheap as the crap imported from China, but you get what you pay for.

[polichick]

43. That's right - but imo less stuff is a good thing. (see #39)

[dmallind]

50. For those who spoke without knowing - here is a link

I don't mind linking but why make a pronouncement about US and China mining/mfg/utilities data if you don't know where to look? Why should links be necessary if you know what you are talking about? Why make statements if you don't?

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnllist.asp

[krawhitham]

52. Ford: Buy American, our gas pedal works

[polichick]

53. LOL - nice ad! I've had a few Fords and the pedals did indeed work.

[boppers]

61. Ford recall information here:

http://www.ford.com/owner-services/customer-support/recall-information

Apparently, speed control gets stuck on Fords, too, FWIW.

[quiller4]

71. this is about cruise control not your accelerator

It was a probblem on a few models of Ford Crown Victoria and F 250 trucks where the cruise control module was made for Ford by Texas Instruments.

[boppers]

76. Is Texas not american?

News to me. Then again... they're Mexican by some measures, as is California. Seized US lands.

[Romulox]

77. Your posts are just *aggressively* ill-informed.

For example, "Texas Instruments" is a company name, not a declaration of place of manufacture. :rofl:

[boppers]

85. It's a "buy american" thread, and a ford sub-thread. Context matters.

Ford, a nominally american company, using TI chips, another nominally american company... but both companies are really global corporations, and the "American" part is something of a marketing ruse they use.

[WinkyDink]

79. I owned one Ford, ca. 1983. IT STOPPED DEAD ON THE ROAD MORE THAN ONCE.

That was the last Ford for me!

[boppers]

63. "get back to"?

You're implying it went somewhere?

Heck, even buying out-of-state or out-of-region is less fashionable here, where some of our local fast-food chains make a point of which valley's produce they're using.

[FormerDittoHead]

65. What we need to get back to is MADE IN AMERICA first. n/t

[WinkyDink]

78. How do we this in a CAPITALIST economy: FORCE people to build factories to "start making stuff"?

The problem is CAPITALISM.

[DFW]

81. If it's not made in America, you can't buy American

It's way more complicated than just wanting to stop buying laptops made in Guangzhou.

The Chinese have kept their currency artificially low for a long time now, in order to keep their
exported products so cheap that the American economy can't compete. You can't ask American workers
to work for $2 a day, and you can't force American consumers to buy products that cost five times
what the same items cost when they come from China.

You're right that we need to make products in this country, but we also need to invest a LOT in
innovation if we are to figure out how to pay our workers a fair wage and still be able to make
products that cost the same as the ones made in China. Until we start to figure that one out,
the Chinese will still continue to export their own unemployment to us in the form of products
so cheap that no American can compete pricewise.

Forcing them to let their currency trade freely, and rise to its true value, thus making their
own exports more expensive to us and our products cheaper to them, would be a start. However,
they hold all the cards (and two trillion of our dollars) at this point, and have no incentive
to do so. Until someone figure out how to give them this incentive, I don't see how things can
improve short of imposing illegal (WTO rules) barriers to their products, in which case they can
decide to destroy our currency by dumping their US Treasury holdings.

We should have addressed this question 25 years ago. It won't be easy getting that oak tree back
into the acorn.

[FormerDittoHead]

82. Here's ONE problem: 81 messages and NO ONE used the word "Tariff"

I'm not suggesting tariffs are the end-all or be-all of our trade deficit. Oil accounts for most of that.

But THIS board to field 81 replies to this subject (one of mine included) and for NO ONE to DARE mention the thing that EVERY OTHER COUNTRY DOES?

I'm not an expert on tariffs - check out Thom Hartmann for more on them.

My observation, however, is that we're rowing the boat with one oar if after all of these messages I'm the first one to MENTION them HERE.

[robcon]

83. We should NEVER go back to Buy American.

That would lead to a reduction in our standard of living, and that of the rest of the world, too.

see Paul Krugman on Ricardo's diffult idea
http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm

[LatteLibertine]

84. Definitely

support small local businesses. For example, I never eat out at large national food chains. I eat at local restaurants. I also buy from local stores. Investing in your community is a good place to start.

Many products are not wholly made in the United States anymore. We can still support the idea as best we may. Personally, I don't mind paying more in order to support our economy and our people.

I think we should pressure our corporations who exploit folks in other countries too. Not only do they often get low pay, they have no benefits and are highly overworked. Shine the light of day on them, and seek to promote boycotts in egregious cases. Many times they will respond to bad PR.