Chavez says Obama "lost in space" on Latin America

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: Reuters

CARACAS (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama is "lost in the Andromeda" galaxy on Latin American policy, his chief critic in the region, Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez, said on Sunday, while demanding the closure of U.S. military bases.

Last week Obama said critics of U.S. involvement in Latin America who are now asking Washington to do more to restore the ousted president of Honduras "can't have it both ways."

"We are not asking you to intervene in Honduras, Obama. On the contrary, we are asking that "the empire" get its hands off Honduras and get its claws out of Latin America," Chavez said in a rambling weekly television and radio show.

"President Obama is lost in the Andromeda Nebula, he has lost his bearings, he doesn't get it," he said.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE57F24620090816

[bemildred]

1. Yawn. nt

[L. Coyote]

199. Reuters job description: Begin with "a rambling weekly television and radio show"

and build the story around it with hateful propaganda :rofl:

[Akoto]

2. Doesn't he have something that needs nationalizing? n/t

[ohio2007]

53. lol, Mr Whipple is a gringo thief, take over the toilet paper factory .

Gives 'Viva" Chavez a whole new meaning

[Deja Q]

68. His hair, perhaps?

[Better Believe It]

126. You mean like health care? :) Horror of horrors! That would get the right-wingnuts going!

[WriteDown]

3. In the Andromeda nebula?

That's fairly specific. :shrug:

Maybe gave the speech right after an episode of Star Trek?

[AlphaCentauri]

143. He should say that we need a Mexican military base in Louisiana

after all they would do a better job protecting Americans than US troops protecting democracy in LA

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/080905troopsinvade.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168778,00.html

[WriteDown]

175. Louisiana can probably use it. nt.

[AlphaCentauri]

181. but patriots will refused n/t

[WriteDown]

182. Maybe you meant "parrishs." nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

176. Someone should tell that space cadet Chavez that it is a galaxy, not a nebula

[WriteDown]

179. I just assumed he was talking about something else...

I think Obama has been trying to deny the existence of the Andromeda nebula for years to Latin America.

[EFerrari]

4. Chavez is only saying what most Latin American leaders are thinking.

Who IS advising Obama on Latin America? They need to be fired.

[Wilms]

5. Lanny Davis > Hillary

Like that.

[EFerrari]

6. Something is wrong. They have Obama denying the 7 bases

his National Security Adviser is defending, the right seems to be still in charge of the State Department LatAm policy, the ongoing drug interdiction at the Mexican border is mostly killing civilians. The week Garcia in Peru killed and disappeared a bunch of indigenous people, we gave them new millions in military aid. The handling of the coup alone has vastly eroded support for the president in the region. Something is wrong with this picture.

As usual, Chavez is the guy in the room that pipes up.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. We have access to the bases, they are not US exclsive or controlled facilities

There are improvements being made so US equipment (C-17 etc) can safely use them. Right now there are limitation in place for less than 1000 uniformed personnel (max) to be based there.

It makes for a easy target and Chavez won't pass it up. However, Obama is doing the right thing with Latin America.

[EFerrari]

15. Search LatAm leaders on this issue. They are all in agreement. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. So what?

[EFerrari]

21. So what? Now, there's a LatAm policy for you.

LOL

[Wilms]

23. So what?

In your book it's not ok for a popular, democratically elected leader, to lead his country's majority. But it's ok for the US to have a policy of interference on another continent.

Progressive my ass.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. It was a flippant answer to a specious statement

LatAm is far from monolithic. Chavez does not speak for all of it.

[EFerrari]

37. I suggested you search the opinions of Latin American leaders.

There is nothing specious about that.

[Wilms]

38. "Chavez does not speak for all of it" is another flippant and specious statement.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Latin_American_leaders_assail_U_S_troop_plan.html?siteSect=143&sid=11043424&cKey=1249527150000&ty=ti

What the hell is on your summer reading list, anyway?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Your own link points out that Peru is fine with it

Chile is taking a neutral stance based on sovereignty.

That's not monolithic behind Chavez

[Wilms]

54. Gee. OK.

Do you have any idea why. prof?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. Its obvious why but it stills puts a hole in the monothlithic block meme

Chile is being formally neutral as well.

[Wilms]

61. What is monolithic in the world? And how does it's lack de-legitimize the international concern?

I know. Chavez ate YOUR kitten.

Sorry about that. :(

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. To claim that Obama is about to start a new round of mitiary adventurism in LatAm

is pretty silly, but the Chavez fans lap it up.

That there are concerns is fine, and I think they will provide a solid check on any potential expansion. It means that Obama will have to keep his word on the world stage. Not a bad thing for the next 7.5 years.

I keep harping on that it is the USE of 7 bases and no raise in the troop ceiling. That some do not grasp the distinction is sad. That Chavez ignores those facts is not surprising. He needs to keep the rabble rousing going, and we are indeed handing him easy shots.

[Wilms]

69. "Keep harping" but we got it already about the ceilings, leasing, and what all.

It's not even clear that Obama really even favors it rather than being pinned. Do you need a tinfoil hat to consider? :shrug:

I don't know that I (or anyone) call it "military adventurism".

What part of our history in South and Central America and the War on Drugs doesn't leave you open to the idea that a lot of people down there are even more pissed at and wary of America than even Americans are???

[ProgressiveProfessor]

75. You seem to get it, others here do not, thus the harping

To assume that POTUS is somehow pinned on this is a surprising claim at this point in his presidency. Is there any out there to back that up other than "its obvious" claims? If there was, I am sure it would be trumpeted from the pinnacles of the Andes at this point

That many are suspicious of the US is more than understandable given the regional history. As I said in another post, Obama has taken a very clear public position on this. Hard to see how he could back out of it successfully.

Finally, for those concerned about large scale military intervention, I would not worry about the bases in Columbia. Any build up would public and would be all over the US and LatAm media. Instead the most likely attack would be from a USN carrier with negligible warning. Think Libya

[Wilms]

76. Who is assuming? Not what I wrote.

You're pretty shut down on this. And strawman arguments are a quagmire.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

86. Then I misunderstood what you posted and apologize

There are a few out there claiming that Obama is already under the thumb of this special interest or that. One of them is across the hall from me on campus. Again, if I misread your post, I apologize.

[Grinchie]

101. I don't think the Russians are going to let that happen.

In fact, I think Chavez is making nice with them just in case the Multi-Trillion dollar U.S. Army tires of its comittments in Iraq and Afganistan.

Nor do I think China would like it very much either.

Either way, the U.S. would never survive a conventional war with either, because the sheeple will be destroyed, and the rest will just refuse to go along with it.

[hack89]

174. And just how is Russia going stop it?

they are paper tiger once they get away from their shores. They have no ability to project military power in the world.

[Grinchie]

98. Your last sentence nails it.

And the ProgressiveProfessor just thinks that as long as they get a Walmart or a Target, the magic of happy democracy will descend on Central America like magic.

Fight as hard as they may, their loyalty to the Status Quo of Corporate largesses bleeds through their "Progressive" brand. They can imagine how poorly the people have been treated down their, many times with the full backing and support of the U.S.

It's not like this is all still secret. It was declassified years ago, yet they sure wish it hadn't.

[Grinchie]

97. And just explain why they would not be worried about it?

We have been poking about down their for centuries, and just suddenly, because we have a new Masthead for the Corporate masters, things are different.

Are you really that stupid to believe that nonsense? I don't believe, so why should Chavez or the other Latin American states that have bee repeatedly screwed by Gringo believe it?

This Continuity of Goverment we see doesn't have a clue that the Over Consumptive days of the U.S. are gone, but gosh darnit, they're goona tried their damndest to get the Good Old Days of another Clinton Dot Con bubble rolling or destroy the planet trying.

[sabrina 1]

104. The US doesn't have to 'raise the troop ceiling'

they send mercenaries instead of regular troops. And this administration is continuing to fund the Colombian military despite its disgraceful human rights record.

http://colombiajournal.org/colombia313.htm

The Obama administration’s policy towards Colombia is particularly troubling in light of the atrocious human rights record of the Colombian military, including recent revelations of more than 1,100 extra-judicial executions perpetrated by soldiers supposedly engaged in counterinsurgency operations. Ultimately, the Colombia policy of the Obama administration and the Democrats in Congress represents a marginal shift from that of the Bush administration and the Republicans. Sadly, that shift is in the direction of increased militarism.

Obama denies increasing 'troop levels' in Colombia but has said nothing about the mercenaries the US has been using there for the past decade.

And why are we there in the first place? Other than the phony 'war on drugs', how does 'Plan Colombia' benefit the American people?

[ronnie624]

148. You must be confused.

Chavez is not quoted in the article as saying "Obama is about to start a new round of mitiary adventurism in LatAm". What he said was, "This is just the start of an imperial military expansion".

The opening article also contained this paragraph:

Chavez, who expelled the U.S. ambassador to Venezuela at the end of the Bush administration but allowed him back when Obama took office, said he still believes Obama has good intentions.

That should have given you a clue about Chavez's opinion of President Obama.

[Grinchie]

95. What a crock -- Backing out with a Semantic Meaning defense.

Why don't you just come out and Say that you Adore this Administration, despite their flailing about in Latin America like bush did? Obama has already said he thinks Nafta is fine and danday, so what it to make is believe that CAFTA is not the next big project, along with Military to enforce the rules?

ProgressiveProfessor.. Harumph.

It's kind of hard to defend this administration when people that actually pay attention want us out of their, and let them deal with their own destiny.

You sound like a DLC stooge. Just like all the other Stooges that semm to think Chavaz does not have a right to lead his country the way he and the people choose, without America taking sides with the Oil Companies, Big Ag and other exploiters of the Tropics.

[Judi Lynn]

195. They do speak for themselves: "Argentina worries over U.S. military bases in Colombia"

Argentina worries over U.S. military bases in Colombia
2009-08-18 10:14:26
by Alejandra del Palacio

BUENOS AIRES, Aug. 17 (Xinhua) -- Argentine Defense Minister Nilda Garre on Monday expressed concern over the establishment of U.S. military bases in Colombia, saying that "it is very worrying."

Garre made the remark when attending a ceremony for the 159th anniversary of General Jose de San Martin's death. General Martin was the liberator of Argentina.

Colombia and the United States on Friday completed talks over their military cooperation that would allow Washington to use five aerial and two naval bases in the Colombian territory, which provoked a controversy in South America.

The agreement also allows the presence in the Colombian territory of some 800 U.S. soldiers and 600 Pentagon's contractors. But military operations by Washington against other countries from Colombia are not allowed.

Though the United States and Colombia have said the plan was designed to strengthen Colombia's anti-drug and anti-rebel efforts, many South American countries have voiced their concerns over more U.S. military presence in the region.

Argentine president Cristina Fernandez had urged the Union of South American Nations (Unasur) to hold a special meeting to discuss the issue.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/18/content_11901975.htm

[Judi Lynn]

196. Brazil's Lula Proposes Meeting With Obama On Colombian

Brazil's Lula Proposes Meeting With Obama On Colombian
3:01 PM EDT | DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

QUITO -(Dow Jones)- Brazilian President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva suggested a meeting with the members of the Union of South American Nations, or Unasur, and U.S. President Barack Obama to discuss a proposed increase in U.S. military presence in Colombia, a move that has made some South American leaders uneasy.


Lula and other dignitaries were in Quito for Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa's swearing-in for a second term and also for Ecuador's take over of the rotating presidency of the group for a year. Lula made his comments at Correa's swearing-in ceremony, broadcast on national television.

Other regional leaders, such as Argentine President Cristina Fernandez, spoke about Lula's proposal. Fernandez said she believes the U.S. proposal is "a belligerent, unprecedented and unacceptable situation."

Fernandez asked that Colombian President Alvaro Uribe also be present in the proposed meeting. Uribe was noticeably absent from the Unasur presidency ceremony Monday.

The meeting between Unasur leaders would be held in Argentina, though the date has yet to be determined.

Fernando Lugo, Paraguay's president, suggested the meeting take place before the end of the month. On Aug. 24, the defense ministers of Unasur countries will discuss the U.S. military base installation plans.

http://news.morningstar.com/newsnet/ViewNews.aspx?article=/DJ/200908101501DOWJONESDJONLINE000281_univ.xml

[Vidar]

102. Obviously the US's history of supporting dictators, toppling democracies &

financing death squads is just fine with you.

[SkyDaddy7]

17. I totally agree with what you said but...

many here on DU think Chavez is some kind of god! I personally think he is a power hungry person who loves attention on the world stage and running his mouth is the way he goes about getting the attention he craves.

[EFerrari]

22. That's just silly. This isn't about Chavez. There is no one in Latin America

that wants those bases there besides the lapdogs in Colombia and Peru.

[Judi Lynn]

164. Alan Garcia's current rating with his citizens is 27%. He had his military fire on protesters

recently, which you've mentioned, killing many, and going into hospitals and taking out the injured survivors from his massacre. Peru is not just another South American country wholeheartedly supporting US interference in Latin America. That only applies to blood-feasting "Two Breakfasts" Alan Garcia.

As for Chile's fabulous (according to the educator among us) neutrality in this matter, Chileans elected Michelle Bachelet who herself was tortured in Nixon's hand chosen and planted and fully supported bloody coup master, tyrant, torture-loving mass murderer Augusto Pinochet's prisons, along with her mother, and her father, General Alberto Bachelet, who just couldn't take the treatment and died of a heart attack in prison. It would be safe to say Michelle Bachelet privately doesn't hold a favorable opinion of governments like Uribe's which torture and murder the citizens.

She's the one who has been quoted telling world leaders that the U.S. has never had a coup because there is no U.S. embassy in the United States. That just desn't seem all that vague and entirely neutral to me. If she doesn't hold a deep suspicion regarding US meddling in internal affairs in other countries, like Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Colombia, Venezuela, and so many others, who would?

http://photos.thefirstpost.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/features/2005/07/images/0116chile.jpg

Michelle Bachelet's mother, father, brother with her a few years before
three of them were taken to be tortured by Nixon's General/and unelected
President Gustavo Pinochet.

I should add her fiance was also disappeared by the Pinochet nightmare.

She was right at the head of the line of South American Presidents who gathered immediately after the massacre in Bolivia.



Latin American Presidents flanking Evo Morales at the UNASUR meeting in Chile. Peru's "Two Breakfasts" Garcia is 2nd from the right, gazing upon
the other U.S.-puppet, his little friend, Alvaro Uribe.

The Bolivian Crisis, the OAS & UNASUR
On September 9th, separatist groups in the eastern “half-moon”<1> states of resource-rich Bolivia launched violent attacks on the offices of the government of President Evo Morales. Rebel state Governors<2> joined in the National Democratic Assembly, CONALDE<3> to prevent new laws on oil and gas revenue share, and land reform. While the separatist promoted the “Balkanization” of Bolivia, President Morales tried to maintain central control. A massacre of indigenous government supporters in the Northern province of Pando has lead to a severe political crisis referred to by the Bolivian government as a civil coup d’état.

~snip~
On September 9th an escalation of three years of internal power struggles came to a violent crescendo in Bolivia. Since becoming elected, President Evo Morales has faced fierce opposition to mandated reforms from the opposition group, CONALDE. They have used increasingly divisive tactics to try to prevent political changes in the new Bolivian constitution planned for December 2008.

Their tactics are curiously similar to the unsuccessful 2004 attempt to oust Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. In both countries, there was a failed recall referendum (a civic vote of confidence in the President). In both cases this backfired, strengthening the President’s position. Again, in both countries, resistance was concentrated in powerful, well-funded, right wing political parties opposed to socialist reforms. The opposition in both cases instead proposed free-market, export-oriented trade policies. In one case the opposition group even used the same name: “PODEMOS”<7>, Spanish for “We can!”<8>

~snip~
After their defeat in the recall referendum the CONALDE tactics became increasingly desperate. In Santa Cruz Governor Ruben Costa said: “In times like these, any extreme measure is an option.” On the 9th of September PODEMOS deputy (and member of the provisional assembly for an autonomous Santa Cruz) Oscar Urenda Aguilera<10> declared: “We are sufficiently strong to split the country <…> if I have to take up a stick, a slingshot, or arms, I will do it<…>”<11>. That same day right-wing mobs took to the streets of the city of Santa Cruz, looting and burning central government buildings. They paid special attention to destroying the central government offices for the Agrarian Reform Institute (INRA<12>).

There were many road blocks and seizure of oil and gas installations. Along with the attacks on property there were numerous racist beatings including attacks on soldiers in uniform. Violence culminated in a massacre in the half-moon state of Pando (bordering Brazil and Peru). In Pando, irregulars lead by the Governor “El Cacique”<13> of Pando, Leopoldo Fernandez, intercepted a group of about a thousand indigenous Morales supporters<14>. There was a scuffle at the road-block, and Fernandez’s troops pursued and killed at least 19 indigenous Morales supporters . A video released by state television<15> shows details from the roadblock and images of people swimming across a river purportedly for safety. Government channels tell how paramilitary groups, some from across the border in Peru and Brazil shot at swimmers attempting to escape by crossing the river Tahuamanu.

~snip~
On Monday the 15th of September<16>, while Western press focused on the expulsion of US ambassadors from La Paz and Caracas and the US State Department made allegations on drug and terrorism links, a quiet revolution took place in Chile’s infamous Moneda Palace.

President Bachelet of Chile, pro-tempore President of the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR) called an emergency meeting to discuss the situation in Bolivia with President Morales. Bachelet took visiting Presidents on a tour of her government palace pointing out the room where President Salvador Allende took his own life with the words: “I have faith in Chile and her destiny”. President Allende committed suicide while under attack from Augusto Pinochet’s troops in the military coup of September 11th 1973. The message of the tour was clear. In 1973, there was no organization of Latin American states willing to support a legitimately elected left-leaning President facing a coup attempt in their own country.

More:
http://www.densidadregional.com/?p=29

[Swagman]

89. the same kind of thing could be said about any politician including Obama...

Chavez speaks out because he has to..he has to keep the attention of those who support and vote him because you know the filthy rich far right would tear him down in an instant. Plenty of Americans already think he is a dictator rather than a lawfully elected leader.

[Grinchie]

144. I agree with that. He is using the Honesty defense.

He speaks the truth to the people, and he calls it like he see's it. He may not be right all the time, but nobody ever is, considering that information, motives and unconventioanl warfare weave a constant fog of war across the globe.

I am quite amazed at the clarity of the statements that he makes, and he must have many friends in many countries for them to share so much of what they know with him.

If Chavez was assasinated, their would be such an uproar in South America that America and the Oligarchs would basically have to write it off for decades, and Chavez knows this. The U.S. Policy in South America has been so utterly stupid for the last century, the chickens are coming home to roost, karma, or just plain consciousness on the part of the locals.

[sabrina 1]

113. Explain how your opinion of Chavez, childish as it is

might be of any interest to the people of Venezuela who elected him several times in elections proven to be cleaner than our own. And what business is it of the US what Chavez does or doesn't do considering we have a country badly in need of dealing with its own corporate, rightwing ideologues who brought this country to the brink of ruin?

The Venezuelan people have already dealt with their greedy, rightwing ideologues and have democratically elected Chavez to keep them from returning to cause further harm to their people and country.

What about a growing democracy, where the president is popular among his own people because of the progress he has made in bringing his country back from the disastrous, poverty stricken abyss it had descended to under its previous, US backed corrupt regime, what about this story could possibly cause true Democrats anywhere to oppose it? Is this not what Democrats normally support? Fledgling democracies throwing off their corporate supported torturers and assassins ruled by brutal dictators, and creating a country where everyone has the same opportunities for education, where they no longer have to fear being tortured (as US detainees do) and their own resources are used for THEIR benefit?

It is very suspect to see so-called Democrats so opposed to seeing growing democracies like Venezuela, succeed. Someone explain it. I know why the right opposes them, but Democrats??

[harmonicon]

50. how many foreign soldiers do you think the US should house?

[ohio2007]

65. Maybe the FARC rebells will rally the people behind their cause to drive them out

or maybe the FARC should stick to kidnapping as a fundraiser rally point.


CIA needs that agribuisness of the president locked down per Obamas orders I suppose, right ? lol

:sarcasm:

[harmonicon]

70. so, how many was that?

Just a few hundred would be no big deal, right?

[harmonicon]

188. I'm still waiting

Now, how many foreign soldiers do you want stationed in the US at bases specially retrofitted for their military equipment?

[Duende azul]

190. Why the hell should "you" have access there?

I forgot, it's "your" backyard.

How you can go with progressive in your nick must be a secret between you and your therapist.

[WriteDown]

7. I always thought those die hard trekkies were a little weird...

I wonder who or what Chavez will dress as at the next convention.

[Bacchus39]

12. which one is Chavez?? None of them seem fat enough or stupid looking enough to be Chavez

n/t

[Wilms]

29. The "n/t" is useless when not placed in the subject line, but in the text area.

Now you can go back to commenting on who is fat or stupid enough.

Deep. Real deep. :eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. With some ink, Chavez could do a good Chakotay imitation

Though the original is much better looking and erudite.

[EFerrari]

39. What do you know about the education of Hugo Chavez? Thanks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. Much nore that you do about the situation in Hawaii...but his resume does not include

acting school.

[EFerrari]

46. That's what I thought. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. Then we agree. Chavez's education is readily accessible, it does not include acting school

He went to the Venezuelan version of West Point (Venezuelan Academy of Military Sciences) and failed to complete a Masters in Poli Sci at Simón Bolívar University. I can not find that he ever attend American Academy of Dramatic Arts, Carnegie Mellon, or equivalent in Latin America.

[AlphaCentauri]

192. Probably the world does not consider Drama school part of civics

as in America where most republicans consider them selves celebrities.

:)

[Judi Lynn]

193. I love your comment. It reminds me of Republican Rep. David Drier's speech in Colombia

delivered with his fat ass parked on the podium of the chamber of their national assembly. He apparently believed they would feel stunned and astonished with his fabulous casual style, and feel they had seen true right-wing USAmerican genius. What they got was an unobstructed view of his big butt.

The immediate reaction was disgust, and indignation when the photos ran in Bogota newspapers. People were NOT deeply impressed, after all.

http://media.washingtonpost.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/09/04/PH2007090402166.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/01kNg4BbMBgWb/610x.jpg

[EFerrari]

43. Like this one?

Trekkie in chief wants screening

President Barack Obama gets hailed by supporters as a transformational, visionary leader. But can he boldly go where no man has gone before?

Possibly: POLITICO hears from several sources that the President has asked Paramount Pictures for his own screening of the new "Star Trek" film in the White House.

The White House request could just be an attempt by the president to stay on top of pop culture by watching this box office bonanza — but could there be more to it?

Consider: Comparisons between the enigmatic president and "Star Trek’s" Mr. Spock have become a media meme of late.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22270.html

[dotymed]

100. I AGREE WITH CHAVEZ

 
It is all about this mutant strain of unregulated
capitalism,whose roots are in America. America supports the
whole Honduran country, including the coup leaders. Their
interests are monetary and military. I campaigned for Obama
too. So far, he is disappointing me and most progressives,
more each day. Now, no tangible health reform, as long as he
gets a bill to sign.. Rahm Emanuel and his other handlers have
done their job well. Of course, by international law we should
call a coup, a coup and not give them anymore foreign aide. It
is not a matter of Latin America wanting it "both
ways." It is a matter of law in a supposed country of
laws. Latin America simply requires that Obama admit that a
military coup has taken over a democratically elected
government, and withdraw, like they are supposed to do.
Instead Obama is carrying on the Bush policies and we should
all admit that and begin NOW, fielding a progressive candidate
who will do what Obama promised. It disappoints me too, but
realistically a con is a con...

[karynnj]

129. I suspect many are - and they are pulling in different directions

It is clear from the op-ed that Kerry wrote and his statements, that he is one of the people arguing for a rejection of the last 50 years (or more) of US policy of supporting right wings coups. There are likely many arguing for the old policy - possibly somewhat improved. Remember that Clinton did not end the School of Americas.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. It is amusing when his statements targeted to Latin America get out to the rest of us

In our context it makes him hard to take all that seriously

[EFerrari]

13. Ignore him at your peril. He is speaking for even dedicated moderates like Lula.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Lula and others do not need Chavez to speak for them. That Chavez want to be a

regional leaders is obvious. He also has petrodollars to spread around. A pragmatic leader would let him be noisy, takes his money, and play along. If Chavez stays alive and in power, they benefit. If he flames out, then it was good while it lasted. If he augers in, few will even acknowledge him. That is the way of politics.

[Bacchus39]

27. yep, Obama talks to Lula. Obama doesn't talk to Chavez. n/t

s

[EFerrari]

31. Newsflash: Chavez is a regional leader. The moderates let him

say the difficult things and people like Lula say it more quietly with a smile and a pat on the back. But make no mistake about it, on this issue, there is a broad consensus.

[bitchkitty]

36. Chavez is a regional leader, cupcake.

I don't think he'll flame out either. He's quite well liked in his corner of the continent.

[ohio2007]

62. He dreams of greater conquests

Venezuela's Chavez praises Ahmadinejad's "great victory"


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5851559

Although the news was whisked away and hidden from the LBN board


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3933227&mesg_id=3935221

He tells himself he has many enemies out to "get him".

[bitchkitty]

88. Ah, you are privy to his dreams.

Or, as I suspect is true, you pulled that right out of your ass.

[Psephos]

93. Say what you will, seeing him luvvin' on Ahmadinejad does not make me glow with admiration n/t

[dotymed]

105. THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY (US IMPERIALISM)

is my friend. 

[Psephos]

111. With friends like that, who needs enemies? n/t

[ronnie624]

153. With friends like the U.S., who needs enemies?

The United States, after all, has proven itself far more likely to attack others than either Iran or Venezuela.

[conturnedpro09]

121. Then say hi to your friends Mahmoud and Osama for me, n/t

[Judi Lynn]

171. Sounds ta me like you's one of them there dad gummed Islamo Fascists, sonny!

Ya'd better watchit!

http://dummidumbwit.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2009/04/hillbilly.jpg

[Grinchie]

146. Neither does Iran and Venezula selling oil for Euros, like Saddam.

Strange how countries that have been manipulated wevery which way from sundat by the CIA and Unconventional Warfare seem to grow very unhappy with the U.S. Why is that? Don't they know we are only looking out for "Democracy" and "Freedom", as long as we can control all the resources of the world?

Green revolution.. heh. And nobody thinks that 5 main undersea fiber optic link's being cut in a period of 2 weeks is odd.. http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/06/1431206.shtml

People have such incredibly shallow, useless memories when it's not reinforced by the Commercials every five minutes.

The chaos of the Iran election is all manufactured, and you guys buy it Lock, Stock and Barrel.

Maybe the cheerleaders for the continuing stupid U.S. foreign policies should stop watching the Boob tube and actually read a book for a change.

[WriteDown]

131. You forgot someone...

[Bacchus39]

18. Hugo really isn't that important is he? Obama certainly doesn't pay him any mind n/t

s

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. Given the choice of which one is a space cadet, I'll back Obama as the most in touch with reality

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ian David]

9. Warning, Will Robinson! Danger! Danger! n/t

[roody]

10. Hugo is stating the obvious.

[Bacchus39]

14. that Obama is lost in Andromeda?? n/t

s

[EFerrari]

19. Yep.

US military base plan fuels Latin American tensions
By Bill Van Auken
5 August 2009

A plan unveiled by the US and Colombia to open up more Colombian bases for use by the US military has fueled growing tensions throughout Latin America.

Originally announced as a pact covering four bases, it was revealed Tuesday that US Army, Air Force and Navy forces would be granted access to a total of seven installations scattered across Colombia for a period of at least ten years.

The largest of these facilities is Palenquero Air Base, located north of the Colombian capital of Bogota. It is reportedly suitable for the landing of large troop and equipment carrying planes. Another is the air base in Malambo, near the Caribbean city of Barranquilla, not far from the Venezuelan border. The US Navy is being given access to two bases, one in the Caribbean port city of Cartagena and another in Bahia Malaga on the Pacific Coast. Another of the bases is in the southern city of Florencia, near the border with Ecuador.

Reports of the bases agreement-apparently hammered out between US President Barack Obama and Colombia’s Alvaro Uribe during a White House visit at the end of June-have provoked protests and statements of concern from a number of Latin American countries.

http://wsws.org/articles/2009/aug2009/laam-a05.shtml

This article is from WSWS but there are plenty of others in the corporate media. Not happy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. So you agree with his statement that :"This is just the start of an imperial military expansion,"

And that Obama is going to be militarily active in Latin America?

[EFerrari]

24. Are you arguing that he intends to occupy 7 bases for no reason?

:)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Who is he? Too many indefinite pronouns in use

Obama has already said "use" not occupy. That is the agreement. Less than 1000 uniformed personnel is not enough to fully staff one base, let alone seven.

When there is an air wing sited there and several battalions of Marines, then Chavez might have reason to whine. Until then, its just so much grandstanding.

[EFerrari]

32. Seven bases per his national security adviser and no, this can't be made to be

about Chavez when everyone is on the same page except that butcher in Colombia.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. *USE OF* seven bases, not *OWNERSHIP*. No increase in the troop limitation

In return the facilities are being upgraded. And for that Chavez goes on a buying spree of weapons well in excess of any reasonable need and calls Obama names.

[EFerrari]

45. LOL. Seven new bases and Latin American leaders are united against it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Use of bases and no increase in the total troops allowed

From the link that Wilms provided http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Latin_American_leaders_assail_U_S_troop_plan.html?siteSect=143&sid=11043424&cKey=1249527150000&ty=ti

Uribe also met on Wednesday with another moderate, Chile's centre-left President Michelle Bachelet, whose government was more restrained.

"The decisions that every country takes are sovereign and must be respected," Foreign Minister Mariano Fernandez said.

and

Uribe's security drive would give U.S. forces access to seven Colombian bases and increase the number of American troops in the Andean nation above the current total of less than 300 but not more than 800, the maximum permitted under an existing pact.

[justinaforjustice]

83. 7 Bases in Colombia, Two on Nearby Islands and the Fourth Fleet.

In addition to "using not occupying" 7 military bases in Colombia, one right on the border of Venezuela's oil rich Zulia state, the U.S. already has bases on Curacao, a few miles off the Venezuela's Caribbean coast near Punto Fijo, and in Antigua, a short ferry ride from Venezuela's eastern coast. President Obama has continued the operation of the Fourth Fleet in the Caribbean sea, which borders Venezuela on the north and east. The Fourth Fleet was put in moth balls after World War II ended, but the George W. Bush administration re-commissioned it with the intent, as expressed by the then South-Com commander, of "giving Chavez a wake-up call."

No wonder Venezuela is sympathetic with Iran, both countries are now surrounded on 3 borders by U.S. military bases. Curious to is the "coincidence" that both countries have large oil fields, the reason the U.S. invaded and still occupies oil rich Iraq.

But from the point of view of "progressive professor" (who is certainly not progressive and I doubt very much he is a professor of any consequence), Venezuela has nothing whatever to fear from the U.S. military presence on three sides, and therefore Chavez should be criticized for bolstering his defensive military posture.

It is not only President Chavez who is worried about the expansion of U.S. military might in South America, the leaders of Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Ecuador, Bolivia and Chile have all expressed their deep concern and are holding a summit meeting later this month specifically on the issue. They have asked Colombia's President Uribe to appear and explain himself at that meeting.

The U.S. has over 750 military bases in foreign countries around the world, consistent with the neo-conservative Project for a New American Century's aspiration for "total world dominance". The quest for total dominance of the world's oil resources has the U.S. firmly embroiled in offensive wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and, covertly, in Iran.

The U.S. has already participated, with equipment and intelligence, in Colombia's illegal attack inside neighboring Ecuador's sovereign territory, which is why Ecuador has cut off diplomatic relations with Colombia. Venezuela, in response to the threatened new U.S. bases, has frozen its economic relations with Colombia, which were previously extensive. Now Venezuelan has made several agreements with other Latin American countries import cars, foodstuffs and other items which it formerly purchased from Colombia.

It is no wonder that South American countries, many of which have rich oil resources ripe for plucking, feel threatened by the expansion of U.S. military forces into Colombia and the Caribbean.

To suggest that the Colombia agreement calls "only" for stationing of 1000 U.S. troops in Colombia, and is therefor no big deal, is naive. Troop levels can quickly be increased via the C 130 cargo planes which will be landed in Colombia's new U.S.-improved air bases. And, these days, given the U.S. extensive use of unmanned drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the U.S. can do a hell of a lot of damage with only a handful of technicians.

As a Venezuelan resident who lives only a few hours from the Venezuelan-Colombian border, believe me, I feel threatened by the planned presence of these new U.S. bases.

[Downwinder]

90. Is there still a base in Suriname?

[justinaforjustice]

94. Not That I Could Find.

A guick google search did not turn up a reference to any U.S. military bases in Suriname, although Wiki reported that the U.S. has contributed to Suriname's anti-drug efforts.

[Downwinder]

96. There used to be a facility at Zandary(sp).

[scarletwoman]

92. Excellent post, thank you. (nt)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

114. I appreciate your concern but by your own words, use of 7 bases is not that much of a change to the

status quo. However, its is the opportunity for Obama to prove that he can be trusted. If there is no change in 5 years, would that change things? I should hope so.

Some additional things to consider, some hopeful, some not...
- The base runways are being upgraded to handle C-17s. They already do C-130s quite well. That is important since C-17 can carry AFVs, and the C-130s are limited to HMMVs.
- The troop limit is 800, about 500 more than current levels, though there have been more than 300 in the past
- Its use, not ownership. The difference is important in terms of access and media control.
- The Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) is already in place. That also matters more than many realize. It protect US troops from the ICC and defines the authority of local law enforcement on US personnel etc.
- Chavez military buys will not deter a serious US attack and he already has much more than any of his neighbors. You might want to consider why he is buying them and what kind he is buying. Surely your nation could use that money more effectively elsewhere.
- Notional staffing and units assigned to bases is public these days. You may want to research what is actually in your region. Sort of surprised that it has not already been published.

The oil issue is one of some seriousness. Is Obama following prior administration(s) in positioning the military to seize oil fields. I can see both sides of that. For now I think not, but time will have to tell.

[sabrina 1]

160. Excellent post, thank you

One more point regarding US personnel in Colombia. The references to 'Troop levels' is misleading in current US foreign ventures as much of its military operations now are conducted by private armies. I have read reports that the number of US mercenaries have been increased in Colombia, where they have been operating for at least eight years.

One thing the US learned from Vietnam was that a draft would create opposition to their Imperial wars at home. A voluntary army is not enough to satisfy the ambitions of the Imperialists so they have moved to the use of mercenaries which they deceptively refer to as 'civilian contractors'. The American people on the whole, are still unaware of the fact that Bush's mercenary army in Iraq was almost as big as the regular army.

Chavez and the Venezuelan people have a lot to be concerned about. I hope he is well protected.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30230140/ns/politics-picture_stories/displaymode/1247/?beginSlide=37&beginChapter=37&beginTab=37#

President Obama shakes hands with Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez on April 17 at the 5th Summit of the Americas in Port-of-Spain, Trinidad and Tobago. The Venezuelan government says Chavez, a fierce critic of the United States during President George W. Bush's tenure, told Obama, "With this same hand I greeted Bush eight years ago. I want to be your friend." U.S. officials say Obama only shook hands and smiled.

Did the US Empire just replace Bush with a friendlier face? I hope not, but that is a question on the minds of many people. So far as far as foreign policy is concerned, not much seems to be changing.

[Judi Lynn]

172. Thanks for your great information. I had heard about a base on Curacao.

I'm very glad to know about the other one in Antigua.

Thanks for adding some vital perspective here. It's in such short supply. This helps a great deal.

[Peace Patriot]

178. Thank you, Justina! I'm old enough to remember the U.S. "military advisors" in Vietnam.

Only a 'thousand' of them. Just "advising." Just "helping" a friendly government deal with rebels. So seemingly innocent. Such lies!

This is a very, VERY similar situation, in which the Bushwhacks have a war plan so embedded in our government--at the Pentagon, State, the CIA and in war profiteer/corporate board rooms--that even a peace-minded president can't disentangle himself from this sticky and lethal web of the "military-industrial complex"--and if he tries to, he's a dead man.

With JFK, it was the CIA--acting for its war profiteer/corporate masters. By the time JFK caught on to this independent force--outside of presidential authority--that was manufacturing wars all over the globe, it was too late for Vietnam, although JFK was able to spare Russia and Cuba from literally getting nuked. Read James Douglass' "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters." Very enlightening.

And here we are again. The Bushwhacks have created a filthily corrupt client state, in Colombia--very similar to the CIA's creation of "South Vietnam." The Bushwhacks installed and propped up the Uribe/Santos government with $6 BILLION in military aid. Uribe/Santos are just like the various CIA puppets in "South Vietnam." They are dirty beyond belief, and are supposed "US allies"--our only real "friend" in the region--and that will be used to lie us into the next oil war: 'Oh, dear! That dictator Chavez attacked Colombia! Oh, dear! Oh, my! We have to defend our ally, those noble Colombian freedom fighters!" And 1,000 US troops in Colombia suddenly becomes 10,000, then 20,000, then bombs--and these days, "drones" (as someone pointed out)--then we are invading Venezuela and taking over its oil fields, and our people only find out, twenty years later, that Venezuela didn't attack Colombia; just the opposite happened, Colombia attacked Venezuela (as Colombian Defense Minister Santos--now running for president of Colombia--has threatened to do, pursuing FARC rebels).

"Gulf of Tonkin," here we come.

Obama does not want to be dead, like JFK. So he's going along. I believe that he thinks he's doing good. But I more and more also believe that, either he is in over his head (probably not), or the deals he made to not get Diebolded in 2008 have so compromised his power as president that he cannot--doesn't have the power to--stop the preparations for another oil war. I think the latter is the case. He may not preside over the war. They may wait until 2012 and Diebold him then, with a cute narrative about his 'failures' as president (health care? economy?), and maybe some 'brownshirt' civil unrest (already in rehearsal)--then on to Oil War II with whatever Bushwhack toady they can 'groom' between now and then. I don't think Obama wants this war. But the remaining assets for this war are being put in place on his watch.

When I look back at how Bill Clinton paved the way for Bush Jr. to invade Iraq, I have wondered about Obama. And I've wondered and wondered, as I've watched the war preparations for grabbing Venezuela's oil (and probably others--Ecuador's, Cuba's, maybe even Brazil's*) go forward, in this administration, despite Obama's opposition to the Iraq War, and his stated policy of respect, peace and cooperation in Latin America. I've asked myself if he's a liar. I've asked myself if he's a hypocrite. I've asked myself if he's clueless (Chavez's rather charitable interpretation). And I've asked myself if he is the victim of an insurrection by Bushwack moles in the Pentagon, CIA and State. My tentative conclusion is that he is powerless to prevent these war preps--and is possibly resigned to that powerlessness (possibly because he made a deal to give the Bushwhacks a free hand in Latin America, with Hillary Clinton as the front person).

The evidence is simply overwhelming now that Oil War II-South America is a real war plan, and is being pursued. The demonization of Chavez as a "dictator"--which flies in the face of the facts--has been one of the preliminaries. They're also working on demonizing Rafael Correa of Ecuador (we don't hear so much about that here, but it's very big in South America). Venezuela's and Ecuador's major oil provinces are on Colombia's borders. In these provinces, the local fascist politicians openly talk of secession. A secession scenario was run in Bolivia last September--white separatists trying to split off Bolivia's gas/oil rich provinces from Evo Morales' very popular national government. That scheme failed, but the Bushwhacks learned a lot about South American political responses, intelligence systems and strengths and weaknesses. A test-out of military systems (Colombia/US coordination) had occurred early in 2008, with the US/Colombia bombing of Ecuador (supposedly to kill rebels--which they did--with the side benefit of killing the FARC's chief peace negotiator; above all they don't want peace in Colombia). I suspect that the Pentagon learned quite a bit about what they need to run a war from Colombia, in that bombing/raid--and the establishment of seven new US military bases in Colombia is one of the results. They also need Honduras, for its strategic location, and the US 4th Fleet in the Caribbean--both of which have been secured. The Bushwhacks reconstituted the US 4th Fleet last summer*, and of course Honduras was been retained, and a rightwing dictatorship put in place, just recently. (President Zelaya had proposed that the US military base in Honduras be converted to a commercial airport.)

I won't list everything--all the evidence that a second oil war is being prepped. I mainly wanted to address what I think of Obama on this vital matter--because that is the subject of the OP (Chavez's opinion of Obama). I don't think Obama is in the Andromeda galaxy. I think he's right here in the Milky Way, on the third planet from the Sun, imprisoned by the "military-industrial complex," as are we who voted for him (in greater numbers than we know).

--------------------------------

*(Lula da Silva said that the US 4th Fleet is a threat to Brazil's oil fields. Everybody south of the border knows that it is a threat to Venezuela's. And it was Brazil--not Venezuela--who proposed a South American "common defense" in the context of UNASUR, the new South American "common market." The agreement to a "common defense" was unanimous.)

--

Edit: typos corrected.

[dotymed]

110. REALLY PROFESSOR?

The American "defense budget" (defense lol) exceeds
the combined total of all other nations combined. Get real,
not necessary? Hell, $trillions for defense, yet medicare for
all would SAVE us money. Why can't Obama stand up to the
corporate interests in his own country? MONEY that is why.
They have it and he wants it. You sound like some RW school
girl snickering at Chavez, possibly one of the greatest
emancipators in Latin America. Chavez is twice the man that we
have had as a president since FDR.

[Grinchie]

150. Last I heard, the CIA doesn't own any Bases at all.

But look how much trouble they cause.

You sure seem riled up over the use of Words that paint your Propaganda in a poor light.

What is really sad is that the Democrats/DLC are employing the same, useless attempts to shape opinion as the Republicans did, but haven't you guys noticed that we can spot you after the second or third post now?

Lies and propaganda are distasteful and unwelcome from DLC Republicrats as from the Corporation itself.

[ronnie624]

154. A U.S. citizen criticizing the military expenditures of another country?

That's rich.

[Wilms]

34. Hear you are, Teach.

100 U.S. leaders support Latin American call: No U.S. Bases in Colombia
http://forpeace.net/blog/100-us-leaders-support-latin-american-call-no-us-bases-colombia

Latin American leaders assail U.S. troop plan
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Latin_American_leaders_assail_U_S_troop_plan.html?siteSect=143&sid=11043424&cKey=1249527150000&ty=ti


Test on Friday. But it's an open-google test. Best remedy for a closed mind.

[EFerrari]

41. Very nicely done.

:toast:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. Perhaps EFerrari will read the swissinfo link you provided

It indicates a far from monolithic stance. There is also Peru to consider

[Wilms]

52. Perhaps a discussion about Manuel Rosales should precede that.

If you work harder, I'm sure we can get you a passing grade in Foreign Affairs.

I'm afraid, however, that you'll be saddled with an F in logic.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. So you do agree with Chavez that this is the start of military imperialism by Obama in LatAm?

[Wilms]

58. Did he say, "start". I'd disagree.

It's a continuation.

OK, OK. History ain't your subject.

What is? Rhetoric? :shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. Its a direct quote from the article in the OP citing Chavez

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE57F24620090816

"This is just the start of an imperial military expansion," Chavez said of the U.S.-Colombian security arrangement.

[Wilms]

64. Ah. EXPANSION. That's different.

And I agree.

Why do these folks say it "“presents enormous dangers for entire hemisphere”"?

100 U.S. leaders support Latin American call: No U.S. Bases in Colombia
http://forpeace.net/blog/100-us-leaders-support-latin-american-call-no-us-bases-colombia

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. Because they choose to...doesn't make them right and Obama wrong

No territory under exclusive US control. More troops (unquantified), but no more that 800 that is already the ceiling under the current agreement. Given that 300 are already there but there may have been more previously). That means a max increase of 500, which is barely enough to staff an active base with combat aircraft and logistics. Not near enough to start a war or take on Venezuela's current armed forces, even before all the new toys Chavez is buying arrive.

As for the the signatories, they have their opinions, and I am sure they are sincere. However they are neither authoritative nor compelling. YMMV

[Wilms]

73. Nor, to you, are the opinions of many LA leaders compelling, or authoritative.

But when it comes to US foreign Policy in Central and South America...well, it's the epitome of authoritati-ness.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

84. Chile has it right, its about sovereignty, and Columbia is free to ignore Chavez and others

National leaders matter to the extent they are willing to take action. Also remember that what is said publicly may not be what is said in private. Some LatAm nations (not all) have stated concerns at various levels. None other than Chavez has had fits of diplomatic pique, called Obama a space cadet (paraphrase), told their people to prepare for combat, and then spent some serious $$$ for more weapons.

Overall I actually see this controversy as a good thing. Obama has given his word as to what the activities will be. He has a chance to rebuild trust in the region by sticking to his word and showing many that their concern is unfounded for the next 7.5 years. Given a choice between Obama's vision and Chavez's rants and rhetoric, I'll take Obama. That does not mean activities there should not be watched closely, but IMO its not as alarming as some would have us all believe.

[dotymed]

124. Professor

in the campaign he promised Americans the "same insurance
that congress has" and that changed to "single
payer", then after the election it was "The public
option" and now it is non profit "co-ops" which
we had during the Clinton administration and they failed
miserably. The wealthy insurance companies made sure of that.
Single Payer is cost neutral and even cost saving. Why should
Latin America believe him when the people who put him in
office can't?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

128. Ok, you are anti-Obama...how does that change the scenario and possible outcomes?

[RedCloud]

80. I fail to see the "progressive" points you are making here, Profe.

It is roughly akin to some cracker barrel support of jingoism. The USA is, in fact, an empire and should be spoken of as such since it has more than a century of such behavior. There are many more bases and personnel deployed than they care to admit. e.g. During the Viet-Nam War the USA had more than 2,270 foreign military owned or controlled installations and the Pentagon classified 340 of them as major bases. Those figures were shockingly exclusive of Indochina!

My apologies for having called Viet-Nam a war, for it was never declared. And I believe the number of US personnel at those installations and bases totaled much more than 1,000,000.

I do not believe that the Reagan and Bush years would see a dramatic reduction in those totals. Most likely an increase occurred.

Were Venezuela not to have a huge oil industry, none of this would be MSM talking points for some of our posters here, would it?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. My points are is that this is not a substantive change in affairs and is the opportunity for Obama

to show to LatAm that he means what he says. I think having your nation and its leader keep its word to a region where we have behaved badly for many years is a positive and progressive thing, don't you?

As for the military side of things, you are incorrect. The three BRAC passes took major cuts in foreign based troops as well as foreign and domestic bases and it happened under Bush II. Parts of Germany were crying about the loss of income. Subic Bay and Olangapo City isn't what it used to be either. Under Reagan the USN almost reached 600 ships, its less than 300 today. As airframes timeout the USAF will be having quite a bit fewer (but much more expensive) airplanes of all types, as will the USN. It was announced earlier this month that the DoD will take a $60B (as in billion) cut over the next 5 years. Much of $12B annually will be taken out of acquisition with blue water/long range programs with replacement buys, littoral, and tactical programs being protected. Interestingly enough the new Presidential Helo may actually survive (a good thing IMO). I believe that in the remaining 7.5 years of Obama administration to see the DoD budget not increase or even slightly decrease in NUMERIC dollars (vice the various program baselines crap). The military side of the empire is in many ways contracting. Any yes Vietnam was a war.

[Wilms]

106. .

[ProgressiveProfessor]

116. !

That is baseline dollars, since even the apparent drop is actually a numeric increase. Its based on purchasing power. A numeric drop would be even more significant and be a much larger cut when put into adjusted dollars. Also have to be careful about adjusted dollars, since what the baseline is becomes critical. Another key item is to take out war spending. If the military were not active in two shooting conflicts what would the budget be.

[Wilms]

119. And the fact that the military IS engaged in two shooting wars goes to character.

Good catch.

[Peace Patriot]

180. "this is not a substantive change in affairs." True. It's a war CONTINUUM.

Ever heard of the "military-industrial complex" and its MANUFACTURE of wars? Jeez. Ever heard of Vietnam? It's Vietnam all over again! First, the CIA installs a highly corrupt puppet in the region, to counter a popular political leader and movement. Then the Pentagon sends "advisers" to prop up the puppet. Then the "advisers" turn into divisions and bombers. Then we're in a full scale war for the profit of the rich, slaughtering millions of people for capitalist markets or oil.

This has all the signs, 'ProgressiveProfessor'--including the LIES about the Pentagon's intention to ESCALATE. What the fuck are we doing in Colombia at all? It has nothing to do with drug trafficking. The drug trafficking never ends. The narcothugs running Colombia are the drug lords. It has nothing to do with the FARC--except that the FARC might interfere with our oil war--and, in any case, what business is that of ours? It is a South American problem that the Bushwhacks used as an excuse for establishing a beachhead in Colombia for regaining corporate predator control of South America's oil. The Bushwhacks bombed the FARC peace negotiator who was releasing FARC hostages in a bid for peace--with ten 500 lb US "smart bombs" according to the Ecuadoran military, that the Colombian military does not have the capability to deliver. Peace in Colombia is the last thing the Bushwhacks wanted.

And I can't fathom how you can construe seven new US military bases in Colombia as "an opportunity for Obama to show to LatAm that he means what he says." He said peace, respect, cooperation. Is this peace, respect and cooperation? No! It is aggression. It is stage 2 of a Bushwhack war plan that Obama--for whatever reason--is not preventing. Stage 1 was the demonization of Chavez, and the test out of war systems and strategies in Ecuador and Bolivia last year--and the reconstitution of the US 4th Fleet in the Caribbean. We're looking at stage 3--the securing of the strategically located Honduras, and the placement of forward bases in Colombia. Venezuela's main oil reserves are on its Caribbean coast adjacent to Colombia. Ecuador's main oil region is also adjacent to Colombia (to the south). Fascist politicians in both of these regions openly talk of secession, and that--as was test run in Bolivia--is one likely trigger. Another is Colombian Defense Minister Santos' threat of incursions into Venezuela (a "Gulf of Tonkin" scenario--manufacture of an incident).

These are not pro-Obama or anti-Obama facts. They are just facts. You have to be blind not to see them--or get your information only from our corpo/fascist press. And if this war is triggered on Obama's watch, he won't be the first well-intentioned leader to be tricked, lied to and pressured into unjust use of US military force for dirty rotten reasons.

[ronnie624]

163. It doesn't look like a direct quote to me.

- "this is the start of military imperialism by Obama in LatAm"

- "This is just the start of an imperial military expansion,"

I don't want to break DU rules, so I'll just let the obvious speak for itself.

[dotymed]

118. NOTHING TO CONSIDER IN PERU

Evo wants the U.S. imperialists out as much Chavez. Hell, the
whole continent, except for a few greedy, American-money
wanting,(not true Latina's but corrupt, bought ones) want
America out. Of course PNAC could not allow that. Now Obama
can't either. Why in the hell won't he or Hillary call these
terrorists a coup? It would sure help America in Latin
America.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greennina]

26. Chavez has much more experience with these sort of things...

he should only be ignored at our own peril. Obama would do well to emulate the success that Chavez has had.

[EFerrari]

28. Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Paraguay

have already said they object to this expansion.

To make it only about Chavez is inaccurate.

[bitchkitty]

40. Hugo habla para mí n/t

[Bacchus39]

67. I doubt he speaks para ti, por ti definitely n/t

s

[tocqueville]

47. mmm the Andomeda strain...

[Downwinder]

56. Chavez is speaking for his own country, I haven't figured out

who Obama is speaking for.

[Vidar]

112. Pretty much whichever corporation is handy.

[troubledamerican]

72. Colombia (U.S. ally) = Death Squads, mass graves. Venezuela (U.S. enemy) = zero mass graves.

As long as everybody is making this topic about CHAVEZ rather than about U.S. policy toward Latin America?

Then I'll do what the f**k I please as well.

[Downwinder]

74. US policy in LA

(Revised) HONDURAS: Is It “Clockwork Orange” Time? Videos of State Repression That Will Make You Say “Yes”
http://hondurasoye.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/honduras-is-it-clockwork-orange-time-videos-of-state-repression-that-will-make-you-say-yes/

[troubledamerican]

81. For pro-Uribe DUers

like Bacchus39 & Zorro, I wonder what their defense of Uribe is in light of the videos.

I'm sure it will be something about Chavez.

[Bacchus39]

91. umm....the videos are about Honduras

what does Uribe have to do with them??????

[scarletwoman]

85. Thank you. Well and succinctly said. (nt)

[ProudDad]

77. Why should it be surprising...

He's AOL on Real Health Care Reform...

He's AOL on Worker's Rights...

He's AOL on GLBT Rights...

He's AOL on the economy -- shoveling cash at the bastards who already profited from the bubbles...

Not surprising that he's AOL on the military coup in Honduras...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. AOL? do you by chance mean AWOL?

[ProudDad]

108. DOH!!!!

Why, yes I did...

Is there a "W" on the board, Pat?

He may BE on AOL, but he's AWOL on these items...


:blush:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

117. I know that Prodigy is closing soon, can AOL be far behind?

[liberal N proud]

79. He had better be thankful that Obama won the election

Can you imagine McCain, well by now it would be Palin (or who ever she chose to be her VP when McCain croaked) dealing with South America?

[Downwinder]

82. Would it really matter? We are riding a runaway.

The Corporations and the Military have the bit between their teeth and they are not going to stop until they hit a tree or worse.

[Grinchie]

155. I have a feeling they will both through a shoe and need to be put down.

The Military and the Corporations cannot survive with willing conscript to do the shit jobs for them.

And if Murdering innocent foreigners and destroying the earths environment isn't a shit job for those people, then they deserve to do that job and waste their lives.

The trouble is, killing a foreigner is not that much different than killing a fellow countryman, yet, we are training hundreds of people to do that in two "Shooting" wars right now.

[Downwinder]

156. And what happens when they come home?

Been treated like an Iraqi yet?

Something to wonder about. How come so many citizen warriors, reserve and national Guard, are over seas? Are they there so they won't be here, Usually the regulars are in the forefront, thats the way to promotion.

[ProudDad]

109. Not much different

She couldn't see South America from her front porch in Alaska so she'd also let the CIA take care of things down there...

Just like the guy who's in there now...

[onehandle]

87. Thug. nt

[jefferson_dem]

103. +1.

n/t

[Judi Lynn]

107. The thug is the man with the death squads, and the intelligence agency which spies on opposition

members and candidates, the man who calls out political enemies publicly, like human rights workers, activists, who start getting death threats from paramilitaries, then get assassinated.

The thug is the one whose party members bribed Senators of the opposition to go along with them and vote for altering the Colombian constitution in order to allow him to run for re-election, in stead of putting it up for a public referendum, as happened in Venezuela.

The thug is the one who is at war with his own Supreme Court

The thug is the one who was discussed in intelligence reports by the Pentagon in the 1990's, along with his father, in their connection to narco-traffickers.

~~~~~~~~~

US Financing Its Own Liability: Alvaro Uribe Para-Politics
United States Latin American policy

United States financing its own Liability: Colombia’s Alvaro Uribe
by Jose Maria Rodriguez Gonzalez

Part 1: Alvaro Uribe’s Paramilitary Politics

The paramilitary politics, para-politics, or “parapolítica” - as it is known in Colombia, represents the interests of terrorist paramilitary forces, narco trafficking mafia, and political followers of the Colombian President Alvaro Uribe, also branded as Uribeists. While Bush, U.S. fundamentalist conservatives (commonly identified as neocons) and Republicans in general developed a passion for this dangerous blend, Barack Obama – a believer in the rule of law, a human rights advocate, and a pragmatic social activist - seems unlikely to become a member of Uribe’s fan club.

Things to Remember About Alvaro Uribe

Even if Alvaro Uribe states that he has nothing to do with terrorism and narco-trafficking in Colombia, there are many facts that point in a different direction. For instance, Alvaro Uribe’s mother is a cousin of Fabio Ochoa, who is directly associated with the drug mafia known as the “Ochoa Clan.” Pablo Escobar, the renowned mafia chief, was Uribe’s father's best friend. Uribe’s key advisor and his long term confidant, Obdulio Gaviria, was Pablo Escobar’s defense lawyer and Pablo Escobar’s cousin.

The list can go on. President Uribe’s brother, Santiago, and their cousin Mario, were accused of criminal activities, including land stealing. They worked in association with terrorist paramilitaries. Mario Uribe tried to escape from his charges to Costa Rica. After that he was captured and jailed for a short period of time, but then of course, he was released because of the ‘technical’ reasons.

Alvaro Uribe’s family ties to narco-mafia not being enough, many of his current government officials and Uribe’s collaborators have links to crime and drug-traffickers. For example, Jorge Noguera, Uribe’s close friend and his 2002’ presidential campaign manager in Colombia’s north coast, was accused of criminal activities that he committed in association with terrorist narco-paramilitaries.

His crimes were directed at weakening Uribe’s opponents. Instead of investigating these serious accusations against Noguera, the newly elected President Uribe promoted Noguera to a position of the Chief of the Colombia’s Central Intelligence Agency, called “Administrative Department of Security” or DAS (in Spanish). Already as the chief of the national intelligence service, Jorge Noguera was accused in court of providing the lists of union, community and political leaders to the paramilitaries for the purpose of having the former assassinated. To protect his partner again, Uribe named Jorge Noguera as a Consul to the Colombian Consulate in Milan, Italy, this time around. Thanks to president Uribe’s constant advocacy, the law has hard time keeping Noguera in jail.

Maria Consuelo Araújo, a former Uribe Secretary of State, diplomacy chief – is another example. Her father and brother, an uribeist senator, were charged with crimes they committed in association with narco paramilitaries. President Uribe fought to the last resort against Maria Consuelo Araújo’s resignation, despite all the negative consequences to Colombia prestige in this case.

Unbelievable truth, Uribe’s top National Police Chief, General Oscar Naranjo’s brother Juan David Naranjo is in jail in Germany for narco trafficking.

Also, Uribe’s Minister of the Interior and Justice Fabio Valencia Cossio’s brother - Guillermo Valencia Cossio - was jailed for associating with paramilitaries while being a Medellín Prosecutor. Medellín is a large city, the capital of Antioquia Province. It is a region of Alvaro Uribe’s and paramilitary’s great influence. It is important to note that the Interior and Justice Ministry is the second position of power in the government after the president.

Moreover, Fernando Londono - Uribe’s first Minister of Interior and Justice conspired together with an Italian company “Recchi” against Colombia’s interests. He unlawfully bought shares in Invercolsa, a petroleum assets holding company, making believe he was its employee. Fernando Londoño, was ordered by the Court to return around three million dollars to the company and its workers. Fernando Londoño is however still creating excuses to never return those moneys. Fernando Londoño is like the missing link of Rod Blagojevich.

Another incredible reality, on May 22, 2006, an anti-insurgency Army platoon slaughtered the whole Police anti-drug elite team. This anti-drug squad was most successful in the war against narcotics. They were shot at a close range from behind, when attempting to capture Diego Montoya - an important narco-traffickers’ chief with ties to the Army. This case also demonstrates the frustration of the fight against drugs in Uribe’s government. The hidden problem in these cases is the Colombian Army collaboration with the narco-traffickers. Let’s keep it in mind that Alvaro Uribe is Colombian Army’s Commander in Chief.

More:
http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/us-financing-its-own-liability-alvaro-uribe-para-politics/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Published on Saturday, February 14, 2009 by CommonDreams.org
Venezuela’s Referendum: Media’s Double Standards
by Steve Rendall & Isabel Macdonald

With Sunday's Venezuelan referendum on term limits, we can expect to hear a lot about Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez's "plan to become president for life" and its reflection on "Venezuela's battered democracy"--as the New York Times editors put it (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/opinion/01sat2.html) around the time of Venezuela's last (failed) term limits referendum.

But when Colombian President Álvaro Uribe's efforts to change a constitutional prohibition barring a president from serving more than one term succeeded in 2005, the U.S. media took little notice, and Uribe's reputation as the U.S.'s favorite 'democrat' in the region remained intact.

While not identical, the two examples have some notable parallels. In Colombia, the amendment on term limits that Congress voted on in 2004, and the Supreme court upheld the following year, allowed Uribe to seek a second term in office, paving the way for his reelection. Uribe is currently pushing to amend the constitution to allow him to run for a third term. In Venezuela, Chavez is seeking constitutional changes that would eliminate term limits altogether.

The change in Colombia's term limits law was a big story in Colombia, in good part because the Colombian courts have sentenced the congress member who cast the deciding 2004 vote on the amendment to almost four years under house-arrest for taking bribes from Uribe aides (he knew nothing, of course) in exchange for her vote. And though Uribe supporters are collecting signatures to get him on the ballot for 2010 elections, the bribery affair has caused Colombian courts to raise questions about Uribe's eligibility.

Yet Uribe's scandal-ridden term limits efforts were treated as far less newsworthy by U.S. editors than the Venezuelan government's moves to put the question of term limits to the popular ballot. A search of "Álvaro Uribe and "term limits" in the Nexis database of U.S. newspapers and wires turns up 60 articles, in contrast to 1003 articles about Chávez and term limits. A spot check reveals that even the articles mentioning Uribe and "term limits" were often about Chávez's efforts to lift term limits, not Uribe's maneuvers.

Similarly, 286 articles mentioned both Chávez and "president for life," while only 29 articles mention Uribe and that epithet--but virtually all of those 29 were again referring to Chávez's perceived power grabs, not Uribe's. (One Associated Press story (http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080706/NEWS04/807060434/0/APS) did compare Uribe to Chávez, but didn't quite apply the term to Uribe: "The wonkish, diminutive but tirelessly tenacious politician , who turned 56 on Friday, has been cagey on that score. Those who oppose the idea say it would put him in league with his continental rival, Hugo Chávez of Venezuela, who has been widely branded autocratic for doing his utmost to try to stay president for life.")

This discrepancy reinforces the findings of a recent FAIR study (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3699), "Human Rights Coverage Serving Washington's Needs," which found that editors at major U.S. papers portray Colombia as a safer haven for human rights and democracy than Venezuela, despite Colombia's vastly more dismal record.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/14-6

[roody]

115. Thank you for your research.

Will the empire's parrots on this board read it? I just visited a number of people who were forcibly driven from their land in Colombia 12 years ago and still cannot get their land back, in spite of court decisions in their favor. Uribe's friends are growing african palm, cattle, and extracting the wood from it.

[Downwinder]

125. Probable won't wake up until the government bank

forecloses and puts them out in the street. When did your friends in Colombia wake up?

[roody]

140. I spent 5 days with communities in

resistance. They were driven off their lands in 1997 and have gone back to them and established Humanitarian Zones. They are still under threat of violence, but the favored method these days is the assassination of leaders. Uribe's government claims that the lands have been returned to their owners, but it is a big lie. A tiny fraction has been returned. Columbia has 3 million displaced people, second only to Darfur.

[Downwinder]

145. In the early 70s you could wander around Bogota at 3:00 am

with no problems. Then the next time I was there, a prominent attorney had a heart attack in the middle of a block with military on the corners. By the time the military reached him, the street children had removed all valuables. A couple years latter you could not go out of the hotel. How is it now? Society deteriorated the same way during prohibition.

[Judi Lynn]

169. Some people may remember seeing a program on tv concerning the big market there

for bullet-proof personal cars. Very expensive.

Also, there have been articles about Colombian bullet-proof clothing!

Last Updated: Wednesday, 20 October, 2004, 09:10 GMT 10:10 UK
Colombia's bullet-proof tailor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3756738.stm

That says a lot about the ambiance!

[roody]

189. People do not go out at night much.

[Judi Lynn]

168. You've met people most of us can only read about. They have been forced off their own land

by paras, (death squads) who inform the farmers they must sell them their property for a tiny amount immediately and if they don't, they will simply take it up with their widows. The property has either remained in the possession of these criminals or they have surrendered it to the Colombian government, and it gets used for those biofuels you mentioned, or the other reasons. Occassionally mining, as well.

This has created the 2nd largest humanitarian crisis IN THE WORLD, 2nd only to Sudan, but the U.S. taxpayers who are kept completely in the dark, starving for REAL facts, are fed a constant stream of propaganda, clever little lies to mold their perceptions. Only the most ignorant, most idiotic among us ever swallow that crap, as you have seen! The rest of us started catching on long ago, even through the thick blanket of lies, and disinformation.

Glad you made it back without being hijacked by paras, and labeled FARC supporters by clowns like some of the ones we see here.

~~~~~~~~~~

COLOMBIA: Spying on Human Rights Defenders
By Constanza Vieira

BOGOTÁ, Aug 15 (IPS) - "Coming to Colombia is to enter a world that is always intense, captivating and heart-wrenching at the same time," Susana Villarán, a former member of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR), wrote in April 2008.

At the time, the former Peruvian minister was unaware that on a 2005 trip to Colombia, as IACHR Special Rapporteur on the Rights of Women, she was declared a "target" of intelligence operations by the Special Strategic Intelligence Group known as the G3.

The G3 was set up by the Administrative Security Department (DAS), Colombia's main intelligence agency, which answers to the president's office; according to Colombian authorities it has since been dissolved.

In an Aug. 13 press release, the IACHR says the G3 "was created to monitor activities tied to the litigation of cases at the international level" - cases of serious human rights violations involving the Colombian state that are being considered by the Inter-American human rights system.

In February 2009, local magazine Semana revealed that the DAS had for years carried out illegal wiretap activities against opposition politicians, human rights defenders, journalists and even Supreme Court judges. It also carried out "offensive intelligence operations" – in other words, sabotage - against them.

The magazine also revealed that the DAS carried out wholesale destruction of intelligence files in January, reportedly under government orders.

More:
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=48100

[EFerrari]

157. We're the ones getting seven new bases, not Chavez.

[Downwinder]

158. Welcome. Pretty quiet down here.

[excess_3]

120. how much is the US paying for access to these bases? .nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

123. Depends on the agreement

Most of it is public record if someone really wanted to know as are staffing levels. After BRAC a lot of things were cut back pretty severely. Some may just be equipment staging areas with maintenance crews. The locals tend to prosper from it even if there is not significant rent. Bavaria had some hard times when the US moved the heavy armor out.

[Downwinder]

127. Does the immunity from prosecution cost extra? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

133. That would be covered in the Status Of Forces Argreement (SOFA) and varies between nations

It tends to be reciprocal as well. They are also public record. Never heard of one with a payment plan.

[Downwinder]

135. Pretty good duty, all the nookie you can take. Every base

with it's own longapo.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

136. Never saw a Po City equivalent in Germany and the original one is now long gone

Public Television a while back talked about the impact of prostitution and bar girl wives in the military. The stories were all Asian as I recall, but I could see the same thing happening to eastern European women as well. Pretty horrible stuff.

[Downwinder]

137. Longapo had a better than 100% VD rate. Figured the ones

they cured in the morning were reinfected by night. The Enterprise put in for a 24hr. liberty. After they pit out, had to fly additional penicillin out because the ships supply ran out.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

139. Legends always have their basis in reality somewhere

[Downwinder]

142. But Subic had a great golf course.

Had to take a rope tow to the tee box.

[Seldona]

122. Because dictatorship is so much better, right?

ROFL!!!

[Downwinder]

130. That is what GW said. n /t

[Union Yes]

132. A lefty leader in the western hemisphere?..RUN FOR YOUR FUCKING LIVES!!!!

:sarcasm:

[Downwinder]

134. I think I've seen this show before.

What is the name of the current black ops. airline? In my day it was Air America, until they made too much profit. Then it became Evergreen.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

138. How about Chile in the early 70s

[Downwinder]

141. All of the horses got eaten, We starved them.

[Algorem]

149. Who's Doctor Smith?

[Downwinder]

151. I think he was lost in space. n/t

[democracy1st]

159. I've been saying for yrs this guy is one big nut

[Downwinder]

161. Somebody does not think so, he gets coverage. Why?

Corporations are basically anticompetitive. Can't afford the chance that someone else might have a better product.

[EFerrari]

162. Um, the consensus is with him. How does that make HIM a nut?

lol

[Prometheus Bound]

165. And a pretty smart one too.

[Judi Lynn]

166. He must be doing something right for the people of Venezuela to overthrow the coup

which overthrew their President by violence!

They did this even though the private media in Caracas shut down the community citizens' radio and tv stations, so no word of the coup would get out to the people before it was too late, by putting up a news blackout on corporate, private radio and tv stations in Caracas, and running cartoons and old movies non-stop so there would be absolutely no local news which could refer to what they had done to Chavez.

First time the people of a country have overthrown the overthrowers of their elected government. No wonder the fascists are hopping mad, and desperate to slander him every single waking moment. They have been shown their power is waning.

We DO see right through them, always have, always will.

Viva la gente de Venezuela, y sus presidente.

[Judi Lynn]

167. Colombia air base at centre of US storm

August 17, 2009
Monday

Colombia air base at centre of US storm

PALANQUERO AIR BASE, Colombia (AFP) - The daily roar of Israeli-built Kfir warplanes at this sprawling air base has been matched by cries of outrage from Colombia's neighbors at plans for US forces to use it.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez warned this week that "winds of war were beginning to blow" in Latin America over a proposed deal to allow the United States to run counternarcotics operations from seven Colombian bases, including Palanquero.

The text of the agreement was finalized on Friday and must now be reviewed by government agencies in Bogota and Washington before getting a final signature.

Washington says the move is necessary after Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa, a Chavez ally, refused to renew an agreement that saw US planes hunt down drug traffickers from a base on Ecuador's Pacific coast.

But the plans have raised hackles in Latin America, which has a troubled history of US military intervention and is home to simmering tensions between many of its neighbors.

~snip~
Palanquero is a strategic base for intercepting traffickers, with its easy access both to the Caribbean and the Pacific, added Velasco, who led attacks from Palanquero against the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) rebels in the 1990s.

Colombia keeps a fleet of Kfir aircraft as well as French Mirage fighters at the base, from which a supersonic aircraft can reach any part of the continent in less than half an hour.

Three planes can take off simultaneously and upwards of 60 aircraft can fit in the hangars.

http://www.brunei-online.com/bb/mon/aug17w7.htm

[CreekDog]

170. is he saying "Danger Will Robinson" ???

wouldn't that be something. :D

[carrolltrust]

173. Obama Calls For Action in Britain's Biggest Fraud - Carroll Trust Case

The Carroll Charitable Trust has over forty charities which are also major victims including Oxford University the seat of the Carroll Chair of Irish History Maryland State carroll Archival Library HM Queen Elizabeth's patronage of the Royal Society of Portrait Painters, together with charitable organisations throughout the United States Australia and the Russian Federation.

Lord Home Chairman of Coutts Bank HM Queen's bankers together with "named" officers N R Jackson Robin Bennet are the subject of major criminal allegations of conspiracy to defraud racketeering money laundering in Britain's longest running largest organised criminal conspiracy corruption case.

White House high level officials close to President Barack Obama have expressed deep concerns with regard to the Carroll Foundation Case. Specifically delays to "direction and control" law enforcement actions being sanctioned by Scotland Yard in London UK . Further concerns are being expressed with the latest revelations involving Baroness Scotland QC UK Attorney General Britain's most senior law enforcement officer in further criminal obstruction offences which are continuing to exasperate the current circumstances of the primary victim Gerald Carroll who it is known is presently the subject of close protection and security arrangements following ongoing violent attacks with the use of firearms and other weapons.

There is a complete - LOCKDOWN - of the Carroll one billion dollars ($1.000.000.000) criminal case at the FBI Washington DC field office the HM Attorney General's Office Baroness Scotland QC "in concert" with the newly appointed Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson QPM of the Metropolitan Police Scotland Yard within a "cross-border" international crime case.


Please View:
http://www.carrollfoundationtrust.org/

[Freddie Stubbs]

184. What does that have to do with Chavez, Latin America, or outer space?

:shrug:

[junior college]

177. American politicians could alway use a little more education on Latin America

As far as Chavez goes, I think we can all agree that he as done great things for Venezuela unless you like seeing people in poverty.

[Peace Patriot]

183. A couple of thoughts after reading this thread. No. 1: The parallel to Vietnam.

No. 2: Chile's role among the leftist leaders of the continent. No. 3: Is Obama clueless?

No. 1: Vietnam and Oil War II-South America.

The parallels to Vietnam are extraordinary--including the demonization of Chavez as a "dictator" and a "communist," the establishment of a highly corrupt puppet government that 'invites' the US military into the country, the creeping escalation from "advisers" to battalions (to explode upon our heads at some point), the bald-faced lying, and the struggle between a peace-minded president and the "military industrial complex." James Douglass relates a telling incident (one of many) in his book, "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters." The Joint Chiefs wanted to nuke Russia and Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They thought they could 'win' an all-out nuclear war, and dismissed hundred of thousands of casualties here as a 'win' (not to mention the incineration of Russia and Cuba). JFK thought they were nuts. He is the first and only president who faced the decision of "pushing the button." It changed him*--sobered him up about the Cold War--and put him on a path aimed at world peace.

Douglass chronicles JFK's many efforts to get around the CIA and the Pentagon--for instance, the backchannels he opened to Krushchev in Russia and to Castro in Cuba. He was also trying to de-escalate in Vietnam, and arrange for Vietnam's neutral status, like Laos, in the Cold War--with the CIA and other warmongers sabotaging him every step of the way. Three days after he was assassinated by the CIA for these moves toward peace, his successor, LBJ, stated the following: "Now they can have their war." He was talking about Vietnam.

Douglass doesn't believe that LBJ was collusive on the assassination, but does believe that he was collusive on the coverup, because the CIA had set up the assassination to be blamed on Russia, in order to trigger the nuking of Russia. This is why LBJ said, "Now they can have their war." LBJ, like JFK, opposed nuking Russia, but he was not opposed to all the conventional wars that were on-going or planned. JFK wanted to end them all--all the proxy wars--and establish more peaceful and more just US policy.

We have a worse situation now, post-Bush Junta, with really no hope of a peaceful world, or a peaceful US role in the world. The "military-industrial complex" has won. They totally control our destiny. And no one who opposes them will ever be permitted in the White House.

The US "war on drugs" in South America is an immense and extremely corrupt failure. It may have had good intentions at one time (although I doubt it). Now it is just filthy war profiteering--with the narco-fascists running Colombia being the most filthy of all. The Bushwhacks put the "war on drugs" to the purpose of planning an oil war. And they have used tactics similar to the McCarthyite anti-communism in the 1960s to make "drug lords" into the "enemy"--and in the summer of 2008, they added the FARC guerrillas, who have been fighting a civil war in Colombia for 40+ years. They had to get some "terrorists' in there. They were soon, also, blaming that "terrorism" on Venezuela and Ecuador--the victims of Colombian's civil war, which is constantly spilling over their borders, and has created tens of thousands of refugees fleeing into Venezuela and Ecuador, mostly from the Colombian military and its closely tied paramilitary death squads.

Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, France, Spain, Switzerland and others were trying to broker a peace deal between the FARC and the Colombian government in late 2007/early 2008, when the US/Colombia blew away the FARC peace negotiator, Raul Reyes, in the bombing/raid on a temporary FARC hostage release camp just inside Ecuador's border (March 2008). End of any hopes for peace. This incident nearly started a war between Ecuador/Venezuela and the US/Colombia. It is just such a provocation as this that will likely trigger Oil War II.

It is convenient for our war profiteers to have an idiot puppet president, for whom going to war is a jack-off, puppeteered by oil nazis like Cheney and Rumsfeld, but it is not necessary. It is actually irrelevant whether or not the president wants peace. The president, since JFK's assassination, has not had the power to create peace. He is the prisoner of the "military-industrial complex." It is very telling that Johnson said "their" war. ("Now they can have their war.") This doesn't excuse LBJ's role in the Vietnam War, but it certainly indicates the nature of the power game that was being played. The Joint Chiefs and their intertwined war profiteers and the CIA manufacture the wars--prep that may span administrations and can take decades--and the president presides over the current war or the current war prep--some willingly, some unhappily. They may be able to delay war. They cannot stop it. War is now our middle name.

----

*(JFK's change toward world peace--nuclear disarmament, fair competition between communist and capitalist countries rather than war, conversion of US military budgets to peaceful purposes like the space program--matured during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but had started early in his term, with the CIA's the Bay of Pigs invasion. After that incident, JFK vowed to smash the CIA "into a thousand pieces." He fired the CIA Director for lying to him about the Bay of Pigs (trying to trick him into providing US military support). Then he faced potential Armageddon, some time later, with the Cuban Missile Crisis. He resolved that crisis by withdrawing US bases from Turkey--over the loud objections of the Joint Chiefs--in a deal with Krushchev, and soon afterward negotiated the first limitation on nuclear weapons--the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.)

-----------------------------------

No. 2: Chile's role among the leftist leaders of South America.

Chile was mentioned above as somehow "neutral" in the alarm all over the continent about US war preparations. This is a great misunderstanding of Chile's role, and especially that of its president, Michele Batchelet. Batchelet has undertaken the task of trying to keep Colombia within UNASUR's orbit (the new South American "common market"). Both Batchelet and Chavez (and probably others) believe that this is the best peace strategy--trying to pull Colombia away from its US "client state" status, and including it in the powerful "common market" that was formalized last summer. Chavez has made many peace overtures to Uribe--such as joint development projects--toward this purpose--the purpose of including Colombia, of appealing to its loyalty to the region. He has also, I believe, tried to strengthen Uribe in relation to Colombia's Defense Minister Santos--a real nazi "Donald Rumsfeld" type, who is chafing at the bit to invade Venezuela, kill all the leftists and gain control of Venezuela's oil, on behalf of his global corporate predator pals. Uribe is extremely corrupt, but he represents what little civilian authority exists in Colombia. Santos, who is 'running' for president (for whatever elections are worth in Colombia), will be a military dictator.

Chile's Batchelet pulled off a remarkable feat as the first executive of UNASUR, only a few months after it was formalized (last summer). She managed to get Colombia's "yes" vote on UNASUR's actions in defense of Evo Morales, president of Bolivia. The Bushwhacks were funding and organizing a white separatist insurrection in Bolivia right out of the US embassy. Morales had just thrown the US ambassador and the DEA out of the country, for their collusion. I fully expected Colombia to at least stay neutral in that vote (or fail to show up, as did Peru's highly corrupt leaders). But they voted with the majority! That was Batchelet's doing--and she likely appealed to Uribe on the issue sovereignty. (There could certainly be coup plots against Uribe, for not being militaristic enough. In fact, Santos has publicly ridiculed Uribe for his accords with Chavez.)

Unfortunately, the trade-off that Chile/Batchelet may have made for this vote (my guess) was permitting Colombia (and Santos) too much influence in regard to Brazil's proposal for a "common defense" in the context of UNASUR. Santos immediately started sabotaging any real preparations for a "common defense." But whether or not that is what occurred, you see the role Chile is playing. Chile is in strong accord with the economic and political goals of the other leaders of South America. Some of them may be to the left of Batchelet on national policies--that does not mean that they are not in agreement on common goals and a unified strategy. It was, indeed, Batchelet's swift action, as the first head of UNASUR, that likely spared Bolivia a civil war. She took the heads of state and ambassadors to that meeting on a tour of Chile's museum on Pinochet--to point out the dreadful consequences of US interference in Latin America, and to steel their spines in acting strongly to oppose it!

----------------------------------------------

No. 3: Is Obama clueless?

No, I don't think he is. I've pointed out, above, what I think is likely going on: that he is hamstrung by deals he made to be permitted into the White House, and one of them was likely a deal to give Clinton a free hand in South America. Clinton--like Bill did nn Iraq--is laying the ground work for the next oil war. It is a tricky business because it will be a war against provable democracies and provable good governments. (This is why so much trouble has been taken to create this bogeyman, "Chavez the dictator"--entirely contrary to the facts.) Clinton has left a rotten bunch of Bushwhack ambassadors in place in Latin America. She is being advised by John "death squad" Negroponte, for godssakes! She has been shoveling millions of our tax dollars to rightwing businessmen in Honduras via the "Millennium Corporation," along with John McCain shoveling millions of our tax dollars to them through his "International Republican Institute," via the USAID-NED. She met with and was photographed with the coupster VP of Honduras, who is running for president in this polluted election that is coming up in Honduras in November. She is for the coup, no matter what she says. Honduras is not just corporate "free trade" heaven, it is an essential war asset for surrounding Venezuela with US forces, toppling their government and and taking their oil.

I've had it with giving Clinton the benefit of the doubt on this. I think she's complicit--on the Honduran coup and on the war plan. And I think Obama is neither stupid nor clueless. I think he is powerless in this situation--either by his own doing (deals he made) or for some other reason.

Funny how Clinton and McCain end up running this warmongering foreign policy in Latin America. Didn't we vote against them?

[David__77]

185. He has hope for Obama. Chavez does not see Obama as an enemy at all.

But there are forces at work to counter Obama politically, whether internationally or in health care. Chavez is speaking to the Latin American faction that is against the "Washington consensus."

[marshall]

186. Hugo, we hardly knew ye...

I really thought he would be a better ally to this administration.

[EFerrari]

187. I think he thought he would be, too. But we're supporting the coup

whether we cop to it or not, this thing in Colombia, more firepower for that brutal government. There's other stuff happening, too, in Bolivia, for example. An attempt to kill Morales and the money tracked back to us.

Obama is not being well served by his advisors at the moment. Latin America isn't breaking up with him, it's the other way around right now. :(

[Duende azul]

191. "We are not asking you to intervene in Honduras, Obama"

"On the contrary, we are asking that "the empire" get its hands off Honduras and get its claws out of Latin America,"

Best point made against Obama's hypocrisy meme.
It was time someone told it that way. Gracias.

Obama is no Bush. So he knew exactly that his words were intellectually dishonest. What made him act that way?

[Judi Lynn]

194. Mercosur parliament condemns coup in Honduras

Mercosur parliament condemns coup in Honduras
2009-08-18 10:30:26

MONTEVIDEO, Aug. 17 (Xinhua) -- The parliament of the Common Market of the South (Mercosur) approved a declaration on Monday to condemn the coup in Honduras and support ousted President Manuel Zelaya.

The legislature said it would help seek a solution to "guarantee respect for democracy" in Honduras.

The parliament also urged "all political and social actors to retake the path of pacific and democratic dialogue."

The parliament expressed "its strongest condemnation" to Honduran millitary's overthrowing of "a constitutional government."

On Monday noon, the Mercosur parliament held here its 6th extraordinary session to install Juan Dominguez from Uruguay as the rotating chairman of the organization, replacing Ignacio Mendoza from Paraguay.

Mercosur is formed by Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/18/content_11902131.htm

[carrolltrust]

197. Goodman Derrick Ian Montrose "named" in $1,000,000,000 FBI Carroll Trust Charities Fraud Case

Goodman Derrick Offshore Organised Crime & Tax Evasion Case

Goodman Derrick a major law firm in the City of London is the subject of serious criminal allegations of racketeering organized crime in Britain's longest running largest organised criminal conspiracy and corruption case. The Carroll Foundation Trust $1,000,000,000 (one billion dollars) "cross border" international case has named the Goodman Derrick "trust partner" Ian Montrose as one of the primary suspects "directly linked" to the fully documented crime syndicate now "targeted" by the high level law enforcement agencies in this US HM Government National Security and Public Interests Case.

The FBI and Interpol it is understood are working closely with the UK Government law enforcement officers to finally arrest and prosecute the "named" Carroll International Crime Syndicate which continue to operate in the City of London the Bahamas Gibraltar together with other centres of offshore organised crime.

White House high level officials close to President Barack Obama have expressed deep concerns with regard to the Carroll Foundation Case. Specifically delays to "direction and control" law enforcement actions being sanctioned by Scotland Yard in London UK . Further concerns are being expressed with the latest revelations involving Baroness Scotland QC UK Attorney General Britain's most senior law enforcement officer in further criminal obstruction offences which are continuing to exasperate the current circumstances of the primary victim Gerald Carroll who it is known is presently the subject of close protection and security arrangements following ongoing violent attacks with the use of firearms and other weapons.

The Carroll Case has obtained a high status level within the international law enforcement agencies following President Obama's latest statements concerning the proposed crackdown on offshore tax evasion practices and organized crime activities which continue to erode the social fabric of law abiding citizens in the United States of America and the United Kingdom. The European Union are also proposing tough new legislation targeting the banking and financial services sector to provide a global regulatory framework in concert with the US Treasury Department and the Bank of England under the supervision of the Governor Mervyn King.

Click to View: International News Networks

http://goodman-derrick.blogspot.com/

http://www.carrollfoundationtrust.org/

[JonQ]

198. This should be interesting

what are the chavez-worshipers to do?

[DatManFromNawlins]

200. I have no problem pulling from military bases in Latin America

Let's pull all aid to those countries too. And any other country or organization which complains about US policy, for that matter. If they don't want our influence, they shouldn't want our money either. A few hundred extra billion spent locally on education and healthcare would help out quite a bit.

[Braulio]

201. US Aid to the World

Sorry, but your point missed by a large margin. US aid to other nations is masked by US borrowing from other nations to sustain its own unsustainable economy. In other words, right now you gringos live off the rest of us, we lend you the money you use to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.