Wow - Biden sure stirred things up, didn't he?

[jillan]

I'm not saying that is a bad thing...

I was just wondering if any of you wanted to talk about it?
Ya' know - just have an intelligent conversation about what happened, without all the usual suspects we normally get 'out there'.

I read something today about how it's not the actual amendment that the Iraq's are against. What they are against is our interference in telling them what to do. That is actually a good thing. Biden may have inadvertently united them. lol.

I also read that Al 'Sadr - terrorist extraordinare - is for federalism, but only after the US forces leave.

Well - as you can tell, I want to talk about it. Does anybody else?

[PatSeg]

1. It is all getting so confusing

I can't see any other option than federalism and evidently no one else can either. It is hard to differentiate between what the Iraqis in power want and what the actual people want. If they decide they want federalism, minus U.S. troops, that gives us a valid reason to start to deploy troops. Then that would require the U.S. to start using diplomacy with other countries in the region to get some help to stabilize the country.

Well if it would require diplomacy, we don't see any progress until 2009.

[demommom]

2. That is what Richardson has been saying that

Joes's plan can only work after we leave. But you are right , maybe it worked anyway.

[jillan]

5. Well then lets get outta there!

I predict the day will come where Biden will be praised for this.
I just hope that day comes before January!

Too many people signed on to this, too many people agreed with his amendment.

[demommom]

3. I think he should keep stirring .

[jillan]

4. Biden and Brownback are going to meet with Bush soon to discuss this.

I wish them luck - they will be talking to a wall.

BUT- at least they are going to try.

[gateley]

6. What did I miss? Are you referring to the usual arguments against Joe's plan?

What I can glean from your posts, you guys, is that maybe people are posting "proof" that the Iraqis don't want Federalism? Or don't want us there?

If the complaint is they don't want us "telling them what to do" I'm not sure that's valid. I don't think that's what the plan proposes at all (listen to me -- like I've actually read it or something). But my SENSE of it is that we would be working WITH them to implement this plan if that's what they want.

There can be no disagreement that just staying is only exacerbating the problems, so we have to make SOME move in SOME direction.

I think Biden's plan is a very responsible one: We will try to help implement the beginnings of a solution to a devastating situation WE created. I think it would be irresponsible and shameful if we didn't attempt to right the wrong we've caused.

Also, if the people posting these articles and references are anti-Biden plan, then of course they will be presenting the opinions that match and strengthen their own viewpoint. I have no doubt we could present the same amount of rebuttals, but not sure that does anything except perpetuate the arguments.

Anyone with a fucking brain realizes that within a nation of individuals, there are always opposing viewpoints. Hell, look at the opposing viewpoints on DU alone!

I'm also sick of the CARVING UP term people love to use. I often liken the plan loosely it to Canada -- the different provinces operating pretty much autonomously with the federal gov as overseer.

And I'm also ALSO tired of people using the "this is what is going to happen as a result" statements. How the hell does ANYBODY know what the end results will be.

And to all these people I ask -- what do you think would be the best thing to do? If they say just bail now and more chaos and terror ensues, how will they feel about their convictions then? I wouldn't get much satisfaction in saying "I told you Biden was right" while the carnage and oppression continued.

One of the positives in Biden's plan is that it would be easier to work on implementing it now that we've got troops there, rather than exiting completely then being impotent to help if the whole thing goes to hell.

And he said at Dartmouth that IF IT WASN'T WORKING by Jan 2009, out come the rest of the troops. Are people not even willing to give it a try?

I hope to God we've learned the lesson that we don't know the outcome of any situation regardless of how we'd like it to turn out.

This is a BIG sore point with me, and I've pretty much given up even posting about it because it really makes my temples throb.

So I've gone off on a tangent and I don't even know if I'm talking about what you were referring to. I'll cease and desist until you let me know, and then we can have a conversation (which I'd love to do) rather than me just going on a rant.

I need meds.

[lyonn]

7. Best I can figure out is the majority, Shiites, don't want to

share "nothin'". They are the controlling group and are not ready to give the Sunnis any break or say in what happens in their govt. How they can be convinced that it is better to make nice with other Iraqis is the question. Threatening them with peace might do it, ha...

[jillan]

8. This was interesting to me

http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/opedne_winston_071002_the_hatred_chokes_aw.htm

The hatred chokes away any attempts at reason.

At
http://www.juancole.com/
the daily for October 1 2007 Informed Comment noted that "One mystery about all the denunciations of the Senate vote is that the resolution the senators passed is just the plan of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, a central member of the (Shiite) United Iraqi Alliance, which rules Iraq. Al-Hakim pushed through parliament (by a simple majority with barely a quorum) his plan for an 8-province Shiite confederacy last October. The only concession he had to give was to wait 18 months, (i.e. until next March) to proceed. Of course, the al-Hakim plan differs from that of Biden in not forcing the Sunni Arabs to form a regional government of their own.
(The Sunni Arabs don't like the idea of provincial confederacies, preferring strong central government rule a la France.)

The resemblance between the al-Hakim plan and that of Joe Biden is an embarrassment to ISCI, since the US is not popular in Iraq. Radio Sawa reports in Arabic that Ammar al-Hakim (the son and currently plenipotentiary of Abdul
Aziz, who is in Iran for cancer treatment) denied the similarity and expressed amazement that the US Senate should try to legislate on such a matter. His denials do not strike me as convincing-- and they lack any specifics."

How did the image of the stupid American get so engrained in people's minds throughout the world? al-Hakim can call it whatever he likes but we all know the Iraq parliament passed legislation which mirrors Biden's plan.