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Yet another light rail train crash - Manila Feb 18, 2011

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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-11 03:35 PM
Original message
Yet another light rail train crash - Manila Feb 18, 2011
Edited on Sun Feb-20-11 03:51 PM by txlibdem
"Fernando Cabrera, LRT Authority (LRTA) spokesman, said they are using 2 cranes to lift the coaches that were derailed after the collision on Friday morning.

Cabrera said that once the coaches are properly attached to the rails, a utility truck will pull the trains back to Roosevelt Station and then to the LRT's train depot in Pasay City.

The LRTA said that based on initial investigation, one of the trains was going in reverse, but before it could change tracks, it collided with the second train. No one was hurt in the collision."

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/metro-manila/02/19/11/2-cranes-remove-derailed-lrt-trains


"MANILA (2nd UPDATE) - Two Light Rail Transit (LRT) trains collided near the Roosevelt Station in Quezon City on Friday morning.

Both trains had no passengers at the time, and no one was injured.

According to Hernando Cabrera, LRTA spokesperson, the incident happened at the reversing track, which is around a kilometer away from the Roosevelt Station."

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/metro-manila/02/18/11/lrt-coaches-collide-report


Light Rail once again proves itself to be unsafe. It is well known that Light Rail is also unprofitable (relies heavily on federal tax dollar subsidies as well as local tax payers). Why not have PRT which is profitable as soon as its completed, is computer controlled and has a 100% perfect safety record (the WVU PRT system has operated without incident or accident for over 100,000 hours - technically a GRT because the cars are larger than PRT but the safety record speaks for itself).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31985248/ns/us_news-life/">Dozens hurt in San Francisco light-rail crash - U.S. news - Life - msnbc.com
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/traffic/2010/03/operator_injured_in_light_rail.html">Getting There: Operator injured in light rail crash (updated) - Baltimore, DC public transportation: News, delays and updates on MARC, Amtrak, BWI, light rail and highways and byways by reporter Michael Dresser - baltimoresun.com
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-03-24/news/bal-md.co.lightrail24mar24_1_light-rail-crash-tractor-trailer-train">Baltimore Light Rail Crash - 1 hurt in light rail crash - Baltimore Sun
http://briannelsonconsulting.com/houston-metro-rail/accidents.html">Houston Light Rail Metro Accidents Problems Death Injury Political Brian Nelson Consulting Party Tent City
http://www.kpho.com/traffic/21790544/detail.html">3 Hurt In Light Rail Crash - Traffic News Story - KPHO Phoenix
http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/01/08/20090108traintapes0109.html">Witnesses describe Tempe light rail crash
http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79068">Light rail service restored following a deadly collision between light rail train and car | News10.net | Sacramento, California | Local News
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-18/us/san.francisco.rail.crash_1_one-car-train-multiple-injuries-light-rail?_s=PM:US">44 hurt after rail cars collide in San Francisco - CNN
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6914180.html">Union wants action after second Metro crash at intersection | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

(edited to fix totally fubar links...)
==========adding:===========
The West Virginia PRT in Morgantown has accumulated a remarkable ...
File Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
It has also accumulated a remarkable safety record. ... According to WVU's PRT director Robert Hendershot, who has worked on the system for the almost three ...
www.apa-tpd.org/news/Mtown.doc

http://www.ultraprt.net/cms/index.php?page=svelte-safety-rail">Ultra PRT - Svelte Safety Rail
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divineorder Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-23-11 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. All forms of transportation has their hazards
Even walking. How many pedestrians get run over every year? The point is that if we are to have a mobile, modern society after peak oil, we will have to embrace light rail and other forms that are gas-sippers rather than gas guzzlers.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-24-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. WVU's PRT has a 100% injury free record
PRT is safe. If you wish to talk realities then you must accept facts.

The reality is that we have adopted all the most dangerous forms of transportation, and those coincidentally that are also the most polluting.

I understand your point of view: the world is a dangerous place and we will all be removed from it one way or another. But our current transportation alternatives are like giving your children razor blades and matches as their only play toys. Why not give them a nice, soft and cuddly stuffed animal.

PRT = safe, energy efficient, clean (and gets cleaner with the increase in renewable energy)

Status Quo = dangerous, wasteful, inefficient, dirty and dangerous fuel.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. If PRTs were in widespread use, believe me, there would be accidents......
And light rail is not dangerous and dirty. That's a false argument.


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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-11 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You're doing nothing but shadow boxing with that post.
I said no such thing. If you read the links in the OP you will see that light rail is, in fact, dangerous. Dirty fossil fuels are, indeed, used in some cities light rail or commuter rail trains but I was referring to buses when I wrote that.

Your comment did nothing to disprove my comment, merely attempted to distort. Fail.
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Sorry, but your links of specific instances of accidents involving light rail.....
Edited on Sun Feb-27-11 05:12 PM by marmar
..... which is in widespread use around the world and used by many millions of people daily, do not prove that light rail is dangerous. Double fail.......And why do you spam every post in this forum with PRT?


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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I would be willing to bet that he's one of those undercover auto company types
who goes around the country speaking against transit projects, sort of a Randall O'Toole or John Charles type.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The old Pittsburgh Inclines had a similar low death rate
A total of three deaths from 1869 to the present, at one time Pittsburgh had 17 inclines in operations. Pittsburgh has had only two inclines since 1964.

More on the St Clair Incline and its accident (the two boys who jumped probably would have survived had they just stayed in the Incline, the car landed safely at the bottom)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Clair_Incline

After the 1909 accident ALL Incline had to have two wires, the main wire and an emergency wire AND safety brakes (i.e. if power was lost, the incline brakes would freeze). After those improvements the only subsequent death was in 1953 on the Knoxville Incline (This time the youth was jumping from the Incline while it was in Motion, no problem with the Incline, the Youth just jumped to show he could do it, the result was his death):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville_Incline

Inclines are up there with elevators as to safety, but people even get killed in elevators. 93 people died in elevators between 1992-2003:
http://www.elcosh.org/en/document/405/d000397/deaths-and-injuries-involving-elevators-and-escalators-a-report-of-the-center-to-protect-workers-rights.html
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-11 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. So true. Thanks for your post.
You've proven once again that mass transit *can* be extremely safe, if it's designed well. PRT is the best design and will make the safest transit option.

PS, over 40 thousand people die in auto accidents each year. That is the best case for PRT that anyone can come up with.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. There are two problems with elevators
The first is minor in the debate on Mass Transit, basically if a building has about less then six floors a very cheap to build and operate elevator can be installed, a simple counter balance system (The elevator is off set by a dead weight of the same weight as the elevator, the counter-balance means that the only weight the elevator has to pull up or down is the weight of the passengers). It is a very simple system, but works but restricted to about six floors. Most Incline planes use a variation of this concept, but the counter--weight used in Inclines was the other car i.e. the cars counter-weighted each other and thus the only power needed to to pull the weight up. Given the difference in the source of the counterweight, Inclines could be much longer then elevators, but restricted to one car up and down at a time.

To solve the problem of buildings over 6 floors, a different type of elevator is used. These elevators are elevators that use electric motors to pull the entire elevators up and down. These are harder to build, require more power to operate and need more maintenance (Thus in buildings of six floors of under Counterweight elevators still are preferred).

The big problem with any elevators is that with elevators you have an empty space on every floor except the floor the elevator is on at that time. As the buildings get taller, the number of floors with the resulting "Dead space" increase. At about 60 floors, the space taken by the elevators needed to get the people to the higher floor, starts to drop below the space needed on all the lower floors for the elevator. Thus most Skyscrapers above 60 floors are rare and NOT cost effective. Each floor requires a way to get to that floor, thus the taller the building the more elevators are needed. p/

Efforts have been to resolved the above problem, none have been built or even tested for the same reason PRT has not been built or tested, no one is willing to build such a system in a multiple million dollar project as any building over 60 floors would be. One proposal is to get rid of any safety cable and rely on the electric motor itself to propel the elevator to each floor. And then when the elevator hits the bottom or top floor, it moves to the left or right and then starts up or down in another elevator shaft. Basically the elevator would go up one shaft and down another. Thus you would have two shafts, one that only opens to people going up, the other only opens down. Very like PBT in theory, but like PBT has never been built. The biggest problem is the lack of a safety cable. Furthermore the idea that one elevator can be used to go up, and one down, means you will have people having to weight to take the elevator go up. A related problem is a known problem with mass Transit, the best example is the City of Pittsburgh. In Pittsburgh you do NOT pay in Downtown Pittsburgh. You either get on the Bus or streetcar or get off the Bus or Streetcar. You either pay as the bus gets to your transit stop (If leaving town) or pay as you enter (if you are going to town). Passengers are known to walk to the first stop in downtown Pittsburgh and take the incoming Buses or Streetcar, so that they are packed as their enter town, and is hard to get on later on. The same with any such one way elevator, people will learn it may be easier to get on the elevator as it goes down and wait for it to shift over and then go up. The problem of pack elevators remain, just shifted.

The better solution for moving a large group of people in buildings have been the use of escalators. People can get on and off all the time. Massive number of people can be moved. Stairs are just as good, but only effective going down (people do not like going up stairs, especially more then two floors, this was known in Roman Times, the third floor of Roman apartment buildings were the cheapest to rent for that reason). Escalators are even preferred in Malls, for the same reason they were preferred in the old Downtown Department stores, they move more people quicker then elevators. Escalators are like Light Rail, old, reliable, and does the job. Elevators are like PBT, in theory can be better then Escalators, but you look at moving volumes escalators win hands down. The key is people are willing to give up privacy to get going.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Oh, no, a PRT cultist!
I once knew a PRT cultist who was involved in designing a small-scale project for an area of about 5 sq. mi.

He was sure this was the wave of the future for transportation.

Then I got him to do some thought experiments about PRT as the major form of urban transport during a typical rush hour. Suddenly it didn't seem to make as much sense. He had to admit that he hadn't thought about all the logistics.

PRT is a side show for people who are actually opposed to public transit because it would mean sitting next to people they consider undesirable.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why does PRT have such a "great" safety record?
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 05:27 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
It's been implemented in only one place on one line.

Compared to cars and buses, light rail is a paragon of safety.

The anti-transit crowd in Portland had a field day when a couple of people were hit by the new Westside LRT trains in 1997. They crowed about "killer trolleys" (actually they wrote "killer trollies") As if no one ever got run over by a car or bus.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thanks for your thoughts... I certainly disagree with your post
The true anti-transit crowd are those people behind light rail and bus lines. I'll explain why. Those two "mass transit" options will never service more than 5% of the population, except in ultra-high density areas such as New York or Chicago. Ridership of light rail and buses in Los Angeles, for instance, never reaches over 3.5%. So what does that tell you about those "mass transit" geniuses? They are either 1.) totally incompetent, or 2.) purposefully ineffective at attracting ridership.

The main problem with the "usual" modes of mass transit (buses and light rail) is that it takes far longer to take mass transit than to drive.
"The science of public transit is not too complicated," Mr. Cervero said in an e-mail message. "It comes down to how time-competitive transit is with the private car. If it takes two to three times longer to get from Point A to Point B by transit, the vast majority of folks will drive. If it's faster going by bus or train, then most will forsake their car and ride transit."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/us/26transit.html?pagewanted=all
Public transit will never get people out of their cars as long as it takes far more time and certainly increases inconvenience because you have to wait for the bus and then wait for the train. The average transit rider will spend half or more of their commuting time waiting for the bus or train. That is a failure of design but is unavoidable due to the extremely high cost per mile of light rail and bus service.

Light rail is never profitable, always relies on our tax dollars to prop it up:
The regional transit authority that operates the South Florida trains said it expects to lose $18 million in state and local funding in October. That could mean cutting back from 50 trains per day to 20, with most cuts coming on the non-rush-hour schedule McClain depends on.

"If it happens, I'm going to be forced to drive," he said. "I'm not very happy about that -- but it's an adjustment I'll have to make."

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/27/nation/na-transit-crunch27
So this guy is leaving the train and going back to his car because the millions in tax payer dollars got cut. Now that's some "mass transit" program!

The inconvenience factor is far more than just riding with strangers. Current mass transit options do not go where you want to go and they do not pick you up where you want to start. They make you come to them, usually by car. So if you're already traveling in your car then why stop at the transit station at all? Most people would probably arrive at work in the time it takes to wait for the bus or train to even arrive at the station. Then at the end of the transit line you will probably have to walk or take a taxi to get to where you are going. I sometimes feel as if the mass transit leaders have massive amounts of oil company stock because they do everything possible to make it as inconvenient and illogical as possible to ride the bus or train.

Compare that with PRT which picks you up where you want to start from, either right in your neighborhood or at your house depending on the extent of the system; PRT takes you directly to your destination with no stopping to pick or drop off other passengers; PRT takes less time than driving on congested streets and freeways; and you choose if you want to share the ride or travel alone. Add to that the fact that PRT is cheaper by the mile than either light rail or buses (when you include maintenance costs and fuel) then you have a win, win, win for PRT.

Light rail and bus transit receive billions of dollars each year, dollars right out of your wallet via tax subsidies. PRT will take fewer tax dollars to build but that's where the tax payer giveaways end, PRT makes a profit off of the fares and pays for operation and maintenance. The tax payer will finally be off the hook for public transit. The billions of dollars saved on giveaways to light rail and failure bus service could then be used to build more miles of PRT, more stations, etc., as growth is needed.

When you compare the realities of mass transit options PRT wins on every metric.

According to Los Angeles Metro figures, total weekday ridership is 1,385,083 ( http://www.metro.net/news/pages/ridership-statistics/
). LA Metro services the entire county of Los Angeles with a population of 9,848,011 ( http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html ). To find the percentage of the population that actually takes public transit in LA county you must divide the daily ridership by 2 to account for a trip to work and the return trip (assuming that no second bus is needed --an assumption that is impossible to make with a straight face but let's work with that). We find that in the best case scenario only 7% of the population takes the bus and/or light rail during weekdays (weekend ridership is significantly lower). If we assume that half of those riders need to make a transfer to reach their destination then we end up with 519,406 daily riders and 5% of the population.

So as you can see that even in a huge population center like Los Angeles, mass transit works for only 5% of the population.

From the horses mouth, LA mass transit leaches off the tax payers:
The total estimated amount of transportation revenues available Countywide for the period from Fiscal Year 2005 through Fiscal Year 2009 is $23 billion – with 44% of this amount from local, 40% from state, and 16% from federal sources. Of the estimated $5.0 billion in transportation revenues available in Los Angeles County in FY 2009, $3.4 billion is included in the Metro budget. Local sources consist mostly of the local sales taxes designated for transportation purposes (Propositions A and C and Measure R), ¼ cent of the 7.25 cent statewide retail sales tax collected in L.A. County (Transportation Development Act), and fare revenues. Bond financing increases the amount of local sources depending on the bonding level assumed.

http://www.metro.net/projects_studies/funding/images/2008_funding_sources_guide.pdf
$23 Billion to subsidize 519,000 riders over 4 years comes to 44,281 per rider during that time, or 11,070 each year. With $11,070 the county could lease a luxury car for every mass transit rider and pay for their gas and insurance. So why are we tax payers wasting our money on mass transit.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Explain then, how PRT won't have
Edited on Sun Mar-13-11 10:28 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
bottle necks at stations and on-ramps and off-ramps and interchanges between lines, just like cars.

Try to envision the logistics of an entire city with 10% or more of its commuters riding PRT and going to all different places.

Envision the system of overhead tracks required to cover an entire metro area. Envision how the stations would work with pods going in and out. What would happen to the unused pods? How would you prevent pods from piling up in one place and being insufficient for demand in another? How would you prevent traffic jams on the equivalent of on-ramps and off-ramps? What if a rider wanted to go from one heavily-used line to another?

You might think that PRT has the "advantages" of the automobile (and not sitting next to one's "inferiors" is a reason that people often cite) but it also has the same disadvantages, other than lack of emissions, and potential for getting stuck in jams. Plus, it's not even as mobile as a car. Unless you're going to send lines to everyone's house, it's no more convenient than a bus or train.

Either PRT is a deliberate attempt to sabotage public transit (which mysteriously works every but the U.S., where people have a sociological prejudice against transit and a belief, carefully cultivated for 70 years by the auto companies, that cars mean "freedom.")

Many of us feel the opposite. I lived in Portland for 10 years without a car. At first I was the only such person I knew, but within those 10 years, five of my friends gave up their cars, and the local paper wrote of young people who were in no hurry to learn to drive, because the transit system was so convenient and cars were so expensive.

Phenomena like that TERRIFY auto companies. That's why they push investment in fake transit projects that will never really work and can be used to "prove" that cars are better.

Oh, by the way, I looked up existing PRT projects. All of them are single short lines or loops. There are none with interchanges.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'll be glad to help in your understanding of PRT
--"Explain then, how PRT won't have bottle necks at stations and on-ramps and off-ramps and interchanges between lines, just like cars."
Bottlenecks are caused by too many drivers deciding to take a certain route to their destination. Our highways and freeways are designed to create bottlenecks: roads feed to highways which merge into freeways; more and more traffic jamming into a limited space with each passing mile.

In a properly designed PRT system the elevated guideways would be laid out in a grid pattern with several different paths to get to your destination. Since PRT auto taxis are 100% computer controlled the rider cannot choose which way to go: the computer decides the route each vehicle will take to minimize traffic on each guideway. On-ramps and off-ramps are handled by the computer slightly slowing the proper vehicle to give your auto taxi enough space to merge seamlessly in with the traffic. The SkyWeb Express company has built a mini-scale working model of this to demonstrate the seamless computer control of vehicles entering from on-ramps and exiting via off-ramps with perfect precision.


--"Try to envision the logistics of an entire city with 10% or more of its commuters riding PRT and going to all different places."
That would be easy for modern computer systems that can calculate things down to the nth degree. Simultaneously controlling 60,000 to 200,000 vehicles would be like childsplay for state of the art computers that are used for calculations involving billions of particles. Google computer simulation of fluid dynamics and weather...


--"Envision the system of overhead tracks required to cover an entire metro area. Envision how the stations would work with pods going in and out. What would happen to the unused pods? How would you prevent pods from piling up in one place and being insufficient for demand in another?"
You may know this already but stations in a PRT system are "off line" and do not hinder passengers whose destination is farther down the line. The side track that takes your auto taxi off the main line and to the station can be any length desired, so for very busy stations like at a factory, mall, or a busy downtown office building the "off track" would be very much longer than one for a PRT station in your neighborhood. Thus, it could handle more vehicles lining up to pick up or drop off passengers. Some PRT designs allocate a turn out for each auto taxi berth (where passengers enter and exit). Other systems envision a series of queues where passengers can choose the shortest queue but have to wait for all vehicles ahead of them to depart before an empty one can approach. There are positives to both design choices and negatives as well, the former being more expensive because a separate track section is needed for each berth, the latter being less convenient because one would have to wait for all the filled vehicles to move away from the station before an available one could pick you up.

Unused pods would be controlled in the same way as those carrying passengers. Just as your DVR knows that it has to record "The Simpsons" in the next minute or so, the PRT system computer would know where passenger requests have been submitted. There should even be an option to have an automatically scheduled pickup at a certain place and time (e.g., being picked up at home each morning at 7:15 so you can make it to work by 8:00). I wrote an entire 6 page explanation of this in a letter to Bill Gates and Steven Chu. In a nutshell, if there is a passenger needing a ride the computer will dispatch the nearest empty auto taxi to that station and that berth.

Rush hour would necessarily leave thousands of auto taxis in the downtown area so adequate "staging" facilities would be needed since all of those people will likely be needing a ride home at the end of the day. I proposed in my letter that several "staging areas" would be built at various locations around the metro area to park empty auto taxis as well; this would increase the number of vehicles required but would guarantee fast service pickup. If an excess of "empties" accumulate at one location then some of the auto taxis are directed to a different nearby staging facility, thus alleviating any excess at one location. A careful and detailed ridership survey would be taken before, during and after construction to ensure that these staging areas are of the proper size and new ones can be added at any time in the future.

--"How would you prevent traffic jams on the equivalent of on-ramps and off-ramps? What if a rider wanted to go from one heavily-used line to another?"
These two are answered above... don't want to duplicate.

--"You might think that PRT has the "advantages" of the automobile (and not sitting next to one's "inferiors" is a reason that people often cite) but it also has the same disadvantages, other than lack of emissions, and potential for getting stuck in jams."
PRT proponents do not object to sitting next to one's superior or inferiors, we simply believe that one's time is more productive when one has the choice of riding companions. The auto taxis carry either 3 or 4 passengers depending on what company's design you're talking about so coworkers could "pool" together to share the ride, perhaps do some brainstorming or productive work on the way in to the office or just get their socializing out of the way so work time can be used for "work" and not chit chat about the big game or the episode of that talent show or whatever. The key is, you choose if you want quiet alone time or time with friends, family, coworkers or strangers.

Traffic jams are for cars, caused by drivers making poor choices. As I described above, PRT is computer controlled and has multiple paths to the same destination so there will be no traffic jams.

--"Plus, it's not even as mobile as a car. Unless you're going to send lines to everyone's house, it's no more convenient than a bus or train."
Actually, that is exactly the recommendation that I made to Bill Gates and Steven Chu. I find the current PRT companies to be lacking bold vision for their revolutionary product. They do not want to step on any toes, go out of their way to avoid the impression that their system would compete with light rail (thinking they won't make enemies that way). What they may not know is that the light rail industry knows its product is inferior and a bottomless pit for tax payer dollars. Light rail is gunning for PRT and has been since the 1960s when PRT was first proposed. I say "full steam ahead" with PRT and if you step on a couple of toes then so be it. They aren't winning any city-wide contracts with the meek and mild approach they are currently trying.

So, heck yes, PRT track to everybody's house. I envision the elevated portion forming a grid with each elevated guideway being 1 or 2 miles from the next one, a 2 mile grid spacing. The grid of elevated guideways thus forms rectangular areas inside each grid segment. For these I propose the roads be torn up and PRT track be installed at ground level (or only a couple feet above it so as to avoid city water, sewer, electric lines, etc). This ground level guideway will operate at a low speed, perhaps 20 mph and each auto taxi will have collision avoidance and pedestrian detection built in so a stray child or a stray dog can't become the next tragic story on the 5 o'clock news (bad press). And you will get picked up right out front of your house or apartment building and dropped off exactly there on the way home as well.

That would make PRT just as mobile as a car but some neighborhoods may still want to keep their cars so perhaps only one side of the street would be torn out and the other side becomes a one-way street. I'm agnostic either way. Personally, I'd rather live in a neighborhood without any cars but others can make their own choices.

On-ramps and off-ramps would be provided to one north-south PRT guideway and one east-west PRT guideway so the computer can choose the most advantageous route for you to get on and off the elevated guideways. The exact length of those on- and off-ramps and how steep they are would have to be studied to reduce discomfort as much as possible.

--"Either PRT is a deliberate attempt to sabotage public transit (which mysteriously works every but the U.S., where people have a sociological prejudice against transit and a belief, carefully cultivated for 70 years by the auto companies, that cars mean "freedom.")"
As I stated above, all of the PRT companies go well out of their way to state that they do not want to compete with light rail or buses, even going so far as to suggest PRT as "feeder" networks for bus or train stations in the 'burbs. I find this milk toast approach to be too limp an offering for anyone to take it seriously. I believe in bold measures, bold solutions to the serious problems facing our society. Thus, I find the PRT companies' lack of backbone, lack of vision to be off-putting. Seize the day! I, personally, wish PRT would replace light rail and bus service and the light rail industry and bus line industry knows that their tax dollar-sucking failure machine cannot compete against PRT so they have managed to scuttle each and every PRT project that has been proposed. PRT companies try not to make enemies; they just don't realize that their very existence is a threat to the inefficient and inconvenient 19th century light rail and bus industry. But that's just me.

--"Many of us feel the opposite. I lived in Portland for 10 years without a car. At first I was the only such person I knew, but within those 10 years, five of my friends gave up their cars, and the local paper wrote of young people who were in no hurry to learn to drive, because the transit system was so convenient and cars were so expensive."
Good for you! I rode public transport here in Dallas every day. It took 4 times as long as driving (2 1/2 hours) each way due to the number of transfers I needed to get just a few miles away.

--"Phenomena like that TERRIFY auto companies. That's why they push investment in fake transit projects that will never really work and can be used to "prove" that cars are better."
You mean like light rail projects that cost hundreds of millions of dollars per mile and never service more than 5% of the population, while soaking the tax payers for all that they can get each and every year? I must agree with you. Light rail and buses are the auto companies' best friends. All of my friends who used to take the bus or train have since broken down and bought cars because of the service interruptions, total schedule failure in even the lightest snow storms, and generally excessive amounts of time required to get to work and back.

--"Oh, by the way, I looked up existing PRT projects. All of them are single short lines or loops. There are none with interchanges."
Check out JPODS, Vectus, SkyWeb Express, and http://www.innov8transport.com/

As I stated above, I get the feeling that they want to propose small, limited systems to keep initial costs down and not "scare off the buyers" while at the same time posing no threat to the entrenched interests of light rail and bus lines. I've already stated why I think this is a losing strategy and PRT, by its very existence, is a threat to light rail and buses so that is just a lack of spine on their part. To the victor goes the spoils, as they say. I think they should be much bolder, propose much grander plans. But they aren't so...

If you are interested, I've posted my letter to Mr. Gates elsewhere on DU and it would be easy to find via google: Gates PRT
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. If you really believe
Edited on Mon Mar-14-11 01:59 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
that a grid of overhead tracks would a) be less expensive than LRT, b) serve more riders with automated technology that has NEVER been used on more than one line at a time (not even in Tokyo, which has ONE automated train line and ONE monorail, which do not connect with each other), and c) not meet with massive opposition due to interference with trees, etc., then there's no help for you.

If your public transit commute took longer than driving, that's because Dallas has a rudimentary system. Americans have forgotten how to do transit since days when the systems in New York, Chicago, and Boston (which still carry an awful lot of riders) were built. In New York, the subway is by far the fastest way to get anywhere. Ditto Tokyo and London. In Portland, I may have been moving along at 30mph on the MAX, but I was often passing the cars on the parallel freeway (I-84), and I never had to look for a parking spot. Either a train or a bus always brought me within walking distance of where I needed to go.

In Los Angeles, the problem is DEFINITELY racism. I was in LA in 2001 for a conference and rendezvoused with an online friend who lives car-free in Los Angeles and has for years. He gave me hints on getting around by bus and subway, and I did so successfully. The system is actually quite good. But I was often the only Caucasian on the bus, and some of the local attendees at the conference were certain that I had risked my life by riding the bus with all those Latinos and African-Americans (none of whom were the least bit hostile, by the way).

To run a successful transit system you need

1. A combination of buses and trains that go to all the major destinations. At this point, most cities have one or two rail lines and lousy bus service. (Minneapolis being an example of this, and racism is a problem here, too.)

2. Frequent service seven days a week. A maximum of 15 minutes between buses/trains

3. Lines that are scheduled to minimize transfer time. If you know that the next bus or train at your transfer point will be along in five minutes or less, you're more likely to ride the bus or train than if you have to wait half an hour.

4. A single fare system with monthly passes

5. A PR campaign to get people--especially children and youth-- actually trying out transit. A lot of people became converts to LRT in Portland after actually riding it.

6. Easily available information

But a grid of overhead tracks 2 miles apart? People would still have to get to the tracks somehow.

Finally, unlike PRT, light rail has actually been implemented, not only in the U.S. but all over the world. It works very well in countries and cities that haven't been brainwashed by the car companies into thinking that public transit is for losers.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. It's great that you're in that 3% to 5% that is well serviced by the limits of light rail and buses
You are very lucky. I'll wager that the 5% (or less) of Los Angeles residents who are able to conveniently take mass transit there are quite happy with it. The situation here in Dallas is no different. There are now 4 light rail lines (Blue, Red, Green, Orange) which intersect the downtown area. I'll wager that for those few thousands of people that live near enough to those light rail line they sing its praises every day because the trains here run on time almost always (except in freezing weather or light snow). I don't want to tell you that you're wrong for being in the right place at the right time such that the light rail in Portland works so well for you. My interest in PRT is based on the desire to bring energy efficient, convenient, and safe public transit to every person, not just the lucky few percent that happen to both live and work along the lines that the transit authorities decide.

--"that a grid of overhead tracks would a) be less expensive than LRT, b) serve more riders with automated technology that has NEVER been used on more than one line at a time (not even in Tokyo, which has ONE automated train line and ONE monorail, which do not connect with each other), and c) not meet with massive opposition due to interference with trees, etc., then there's no help for you."
Cities with extremely high population density, like Tokyo and New York and much of Europe are well suited to LRT, it may even be profitable in those high density cities. But for the other 99% of US cities that is not the case.

Compare the costs for the Taxi2000/SkyWeb Express versus the recent Chicago Red Line expansion

-- versus a 9.5 mile stretch of light rail


--"If your public transit commute took longer than driving, that's because Dallas has a rudimentary system. Americans have forgotten how to do transit since days when the systems in New York, Chicago, and Boston (which still carry an awful lot of riders) were built. In New York, the subway is by far the fastest way to get anywhere. Ditto Tokyo and London. In Portland, I may have been moving along at 30mph on the MAX, but I was often passing the cars on the parallel freeway (I-84), and I never had to look for a parking spot. Either a train or a bus always brought me within walking distance of where I needed to go."
You're comparing areas of very high population density: New York, Chicago, Tokyo, London. The experience there for LRT is the exception, not the rule for the remaining 98% of America. What works well there will never work even in high population areas like Los Angeles, as I showed in my previous post: only 5% of the population can take public transport in Los Angeles. PRT works well in the "other" 98% of America. I'll grant you your New York's, Chicagos, Tokyo's, etc., will always be well served by LRT, and subways. But outside of those high density areas PRT is the only public transit option that works, and is the only one that will ever be profitable.

--"In Los Angeles, the problem is DEFINITELY racism. I was in LA in 2001 for a conference and rendezvoused with an online friend who lives car-free in Los Angeles and has for years. He gave me hints on getting around by bus and subway, and I did so successfully. The system is actually quite good. But I was often the only Caucasian on the bus, and some of the local attendees at the conference were certain that I had risked my life by riding the bus with all those Latinos and African-Americans (none of whom were the least bit hostile, by the way)."
That is the same racial makeup of the buses here in Dallas and, likewise, none of the other riders were in the least bit hostile here either. I believe that 99% of people are good and only the "bad seeds," that 1% that causes 80% of the problems in society.

--"To run a successful transit system you need..." (long list deleted)
Most city transit systems have all of those except #1, enough buses and trains that run frequently enough. That is because they can only squeeze so much money from the tax payers. Therefore, they cannot afford both their executives' huge salaries and bonuses *and* adequate bus and rail service. So sorry.

--"But a grid of overhead tracks 2 miles apart? People would still have to get to the tracks somehow."
Please re-read the post, I explained that in about paragraph 8 or so...

--"Finally, unlike PRT, light rail has actually been implemented, not only in the U.S. but all over the world. It works very well in countries and cities that haven't been brainwashed by the car companies into thinking that public transit is for losers."
Yes, LRT is here and in many, many cities and the public have spoken: they do not ride on it because it is inconvenient, takes too much time to get to your destination, doesn't pick you up where you want to start your journey and doesn't take you to your intended destination. Only the lucky few (perhaps about 3% to 5% maybe?) will be both starting and ending their daily trip at a location where public transit actually goes -- until they change the schedules, cut back service, etc. Then you'll be like that poor slob in Florida who had been relying on public transit but now has to go back to using his car. It isn't brainwashing that makes people stay away from buses and light rail: it's the poor service, unreliable systems, inability to keep to the schedule, etc., that people have experienced when they've tried public transit once or twice and found it just doesn't work for them.

PRT, the way I describe it, will pick you up where you want to start your journey and will take you to exactly where you want to go. Many businesses will even opt to have a PRT station right inside their building so the PRT riders will have the convenience of stopping right inside the mall or their place of work or whatever. Light Rail would go bankrupt trying to do even 10% of what PRT can do.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. OK, here's the challenge
Design and run a model of a transit system such as you propose, serving an entire metropolitan area, not just for commuting to work or for each individual commuting along a single line but for differing loads at different times of the day, leisure and shopping use as well as commuting, multiple people making multiple transfers among lines (a realistic situation), having enough pods when required without too many piling up at one place and there being a shortage at another, and getting people to and from their homes and/or final destinations at each end. In other words, model the use of PRT on multiple lines in real-world situations.

Since you apparently live in Dallas (a member of the overwhelmingly highway-oriented Texas Transportation Institute?), I'd like to see a model of PRT handling, oh, let's be conservative, and say 10% of Dallas's daily commuters, shoppers, and leisure travelers, including the real-life routes of as many people as possible.

By the way, according to U.S. News and World Report, 1.5 million people ride Los Angeles' buses and trains every day. That's not a paltry number. However, it's hard to overcome snobbery in a culture where the bus is considered "the loser cruiser."

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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-14-11 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'll take that challenge, on a level playing field
The recent addition of The Green Line light rail line in Dallas is a 28 mile roughly straight stretch with 20 stations, at a cost of $1.8 Billion. In addition to that they receive a 1% sales tax for the 13 cities in the greater DFW area that participate in DART, which amounts to between $380 million and $490 million each and every year. And they receive federal dollars for rail and bus projects. ( ref http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=398&topic_id=836&mesg_id=847 )

That amounts to a tidy sum each year:
"Board members, who Tuesday also approved a 2011 budget of $1.26 billion, say the long-term plan depends on economic recovery and new sources of revenue, such as charging for parking at DART stations.

Next year's budget means nearly 150 job cuts, plus fewer trips by DART and Trinity Railway Express trains."

http://www.kristv.com/news/ok-to-20-year-dart-plan-with-dfw-airport-service/
So an annual budget of 1.26 billion dollars is too small for them: they are cutting back service because of it.

Speaking of leaching off the tax payers, check out pages 7 and 8 of this report:
http://www.dart.org/debtdocuments/DARTFinancialStatements2010.pdf
... Labor and benefits costs alone are 4 times revenues. DART would disappear without federal tax dollars. They nicely recategorized federal and local grants as "Capital Contributions," $152 million in 2010.

DART light rail has a daily ridership of around 58,000, plus about 11,000 for the TRE:
"The DART light rail system comprises 72 miles (115.9 km) between its three lines — the Red Line, the Blue Line and the Green Line. DART's light rail system has a daily ridership of 57,700 average trips per weekday.<3>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit
... I'll just call that 69,000 average trips per day, remember that number represents a to and a from so it must be halved, 34,500 persons. Elsewhere in that same link they quote 223,000 bus trips daily as well or 111,500 riders at most (taking my own commute as an example I had 2 buses then a train then a final bus to get to work but I'll be generous). So we add 111,500 and 34,500 to get a maximum number of riders of 146,000.

The 13 member cities that make up the DART service area had a total population of 2.4 million as of the 2000 census. I believe the area has grown considerably since then but those are the latest figures I could find. So we find that DART ridership is at most 6%.

So in order to accept your challenge I think it's only fare that you first provide to me the budget that would provide 10% ridership for DART, including the 1% sales tax revenue they now receive each year. And give me 20 years to achieve this 10% ridership figure (DART has been in existence since 1983, 27 years and has achieved less than 6% ridership during that time so it seems quite fair that I get 20 years to do more).

I'll await the contracts and the first monthly check.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. You're dodging
I'm asking you to assume 10% ridership and show how such a system WOULD work with that many riders.

By the way, $1.8 billion is about 3 days of our Middle Eastern wars.

I would bet that ridership on Dallas' system has risen with each new line.

Rail lines (and overhead PRT lines) are like telephone lines. You're not going to get a lot of users if there are a limited number of "destinations" (people to call) on a telephone system. Each extension of the telephone lines made telephones more useful to everyone.

New York City built its entire subway system in about two years. We dither for years about each LRT line, with the auto industry shills and PRT fantasists and the "no taxes for anything that benefits poor people" crowd opposing it at every term. It's a good thing Randall O'Toole, John Charles, and Mel Zucker and today's Congressional Republicans and the overgrown brats who call themselves "Libertarians" weren't around in the early 1900s.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I understand you're passionate about light rail. Nothing wrong with that.
You say that it's a reasonable assumption that DART ridership has risen as each new light rail line has been put into service. That's a very reasonable way to look at it. But then in the same post you say I'm dodging for asking for 20 years to get 2/3rds more ridership than DART has achieved in 27 years. Now that doesn't sound as reasonable. After all, if you wind the clock backwards you reach the inescapable conclusion that with fewer miles of track you get fewer riders. What standard will you apply to PRT that you are unwilling to apply to light rail and bus service?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Reading comprehension
You're claiming that a PRT system could handle the commuting demands of a large, sprawling city.

I'm asking you to do an experiment and imagine that

1) A complete PRT system that reaches all major destinations has been built in Dallas (according to any specs you wish)

2) It has been attractive enough to lure 10% of commuters out of their cars--after however many years. The process by which you do that or the length of time it takes you is irrelevant.

I'm not asking you to model the process of luring the commuters. I'm asking you to model a fully operational PRT system that covers the whole metropolitan area that HAS lured the commuters. OK? We're positing that your vision has been achieved.

How would it work, carrying however many passengers 10% is, back and forth from their homes to their jobs, acknowledging that not everyone would have a journey that lies along a single line? (Note, for example, that many, if not most, suburban auto commuters need to travel on more than one highway. Trains handle the problem of transfer between lines by having the passengers get off one train and walk a certain distance to reach the next line. How would PRT handle it?)
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Sorry, I thought I was pretty clear with my earlier post: a grid
Actually it would be multiple grids within the main grid which overlays the metro area. As I described in a previous post, every 2 miles there would be an elevated PRT track. As with any grid, some of the lines go east-west and others go north-south. Within the square area defined by these 4 elevated tracks would be a neighborhood, 2 miles square. Buried in the streets within this neighborhood would be the same tracks as the elevated kind but at street level.

When an auto taxi picks a person up at their home it travels on the neighborhood track at slow speeds until it reaches an on-ramp to the elevated track where it enters the higher speed elevated PRT tracks and takes the person to their destination without stopping.

Most of Dallas' population resides and works along an east-west corridor about 20 miles wide and 20 miles high, with the downtown area forming the center. I would locate the western edge about 5 miles away from the city center and the eastern edge about 15 miles away in likewise fashion, requiring 10 east-west and 10 north-south elevated tracks each 20 miles long. Or 200 miles of east-west track and 200 miles of north-south track, 400 total miles of track

Following the cost per mile estimates I posted earlier (about $5 million per mile including stations, vehicles, insurance, etc., all-in cost) we get 400 * 5 million or $2 Billion, less than double the annual DART budget. I would start with this grid during years 1 through 4. During that same time I would begin by tearing up all the surface streets in the downtown area and making them a pedestrian area, allowing the merchants and office building owners to use that space for any purpose they like (except buildings or parking or other retail space) as long as they provided good pedestrian traffic flow, with a preference for gardens and nature walks. In the downtown area I would have elevated PRT track running east-west on the 5 streets that make up the bulk of downtown and north-south every other block. Downtown is about 2 miles east to west and about a mile north to south. So we're adding 10 east-west miles of track and another 10 north-south for a total of 200 miles and another $1 Billion in cost. So far I've taken 4 years and spent less than 3 years' budget. But I'll leave it at that for now because I will have exceeded the 10% mark by then. The remaining 16 years I'll continue to expand the coverage of the downtown area with 1/4th of the construction budget and, in the 'burbs, expand the elevated track while also converting the neighborhoods that request to be part of the network (their choice) on a first-come first-served basis until my 20 years is up. Unless you'll be gracious enough to give me 27 years as DART has had, during which they've only managed to reach at most a 6% ridership...

Referring again to the cost chart:

... We can extrapolate the number of stations and the number of vehicles.

At 30 stations and 706 vehicles per 12.84 mile length of track, given 400 miles of "suburb" and 200 miles of urban track, we get:
Stations = 934 "suburban" stations plus 467 "downtown" stations, and
Vehicles = 32,990 auto taxis

But can the PRT be expanded as I describe without issue? Yes: "a recent Skyweb Express feasibility study begins with a 10 Km network and expands over time to nearly 300 Km. This allows the system to adapt to municipal growth. Just as importantly, changing and expanding the system does not require shutting down large portions of the network." (refer to pg 13, http://www.taxi2000.com/images/Generic1.pdf )

In order to reach the 10% goal I would need 210,000 passengers per day...
"Taxi 2000 recently completed a feasibility study for the implementation of a large scale system where ridership estimates were as much as 85,000 trips per peak hour." (same pdf ref as above)
With 3 peak hours each morning I could easily achieve the goal: 85k * 3 = 255k, 45k above the goal.

But that would not max out the system:
"Skyweb Express uses commercially available technology. Building a Skyweb Express system in an urban setting has the potential to significantly reduce CO2 and other emissions in the environment. A recent transportation study for an urban area of 1.8 million people concluded that 24% of all vehicle trips – or 250 million vehicle trips per year – could be accommodated by Skyweb Express. This reduction is estimated at over 542 million gallons of gasoline per year and a reduction of over 10 billion pounds of CO2 emissions each year." (same ref).
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I didn't ask about the costs or any of that other "think"-tank nonsense
Edited on Tue Mar-15-11 07:41 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
You're avoiding the issue of how transfers between lines would work in real time in periods of high demand.

Specifically, Joe Commuter gets on the PRT line that runs in front of his office and takes it to the point where he has to make a 90° turn to get home. Presumably there's some sort of interchange. What happens?

Does he switch tracks using an on-ramp/off-ramp system? If so, how are traffic jams prevented if there is high demand on both lines? I've looked at the videos on the Taxi 2000 site. They're positing traffic levels more typical of the middle of the night than of rush hour.

Does he get out of the pod at a transfer point and into another one? If so, what happens to the pod that he leaves if no one else wants it right away?

If your technology is so wonderful, I'd think someone somewhere in the world in the 50 years since the concept was first proposed would have implemented a system that was neither a single line (Morgantown) nor circular.

There's no real grid system up and running because government planners actually thought through the implications and realized that PRT faces the same traffic jam problems as a highway, besides being really ugly and cluttering up the skyline.

Meanwhile, LRT and streetcar and subway systems are up and running all over the world.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. So all you're asking is how switching occurs?
Edited on Wed Mar-16-11 08:50 AM by txlibdem
The SkyWeb Express details are a bit limited; possibly it is proprietary information. But in general the difference between light rail and PRT is that light rail uses track switching where a section of track is physically moved between two positions, this takes too much time to be useful in PRT where the switching mechanism is built into each vehicle.

"PRT guideways don't have moving parts-- unlike conventional rail and monorails, which must have large mechanical switching devices built into the railbed or monorail beam. Skyweb Express will have a simple switch in each vehicle/pod. At branches ("diverges" in Transit jargon) the inside of the guideway has "switch-rails" on the left and right sides. When a pod is programmed to take a left diverge, the switch grabs the left switch-rail, and the pod is guided to the left; for a right diverge the switch grabs the right switch-rail. Vectus also uses this approach. In ULTra, the vehicle uses lasers to steer along the guideway."
--http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/~prt-q.html


Here's a video that shows the Vectus switching method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5W3OSZu9oA

I understand that your mind was made up long before so I'm not expecting to "convert" you to a PRT supporter. But hopefully you understand PRT a little better after these posts. Have a nice ride on the train. :hi:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I have yet to see any videos or simulations of how this would work in rush hour
with thousands of people switching tracks in individual pods at the same time.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I have yet to see any videos or simulations of how trains do all that switching during rush hour
with thousands of people riding along while the track switches this way or that.

I've never seen any videos or simulations of how thousands of automobiles turn this way or that on the freeways. I've never seen any videos or simulations of how communications satellites handle the switching of millions of phone calls as they orbit round and round the planet. It doesn't mean that these things don't or can't happen now, does it?

It sounds like you'll never be satisfied by any answer I give, nor any helpful info I share. It's ok that your mind's already made up but I've got better things to do with my time.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Trains carry hundreds of people at once, so you don't need
hundreds of them running at once. They aren't all trying to switch tracks at the same time. For the most part, the people switch trains if they're changing direction. The trains don't make right angle turns on a grid.

Cars, which are more comparable to PRT than trains are, get backed up on highway on and off ramps, even with traffic light-like capacity controls.

Both of these modes of transportation actually exist all over the world. You can see them for yourself.

The videos of PRT are about as honest as freeway footage taken in the middle of the night. I have yet to find a simulation of an urban rush hour.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see
I'll try just one more time to help you, then I'm out.

1. There can be no traffic jams in a PRT grid network. Traffic jams are caused by too many individuals deciding to take a certain road or freeway. PRT is controlled by a central computer that automatically spreads the vehicles out onto as many roads as are available so that there are no sections that get too much "traffic."

2. The reason why trains never follow each other is because the time for physically switching the track and loading and unloading is too great. You claim this is a great benefit of trains. Instead, it is one of their greatest failings: headway is far too large and that is the limit.

3. Cars are apples, PRT are oranges. Conflate them in your own mind but in reality they share nothing in common. PRT has no traffic lights. The central computer tells each vehicle where to go and when to stop. Cars go wherever the genius behind the wheel makes them go: into a wall or nicely down the lane. The only similarity is the average number of passengers in each vehicle. But when you get thousands of PRT vehicles operating on the grid you get far more passengers per hour than any light rail system can deliver. Headway is king. PRT is like neither light rail nor cars. It is the future of transportation, like it or not.

4. You see videos and say they are dishonest. Ok. I can't assist you in believing what is in front of your eyes. But don't worry: Time heals all wounds.

5. Simulations of PRT traffic are all over the web. Try youtube or google to see for yourself. Please avail yourself of the myriad resources that are at your disposal.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You don't actually have to convince me
You have to convince a city council somewhere to implement PRT as their main form of public transit (as opposed to one single track in a small college town or a circular people mover, like the one being built at Heathrow, which sounds a lot like the one at O'Hare.)
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-11 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I needn't convince anyone: I have no skin in this game
I'm just a citizen who believes that the way we are doing things today needs to change. Whether it be the Republicans not wanting to subsidise anything that benefits the poor and middle class that will fight to end rail giveaways; or the Democrats finally realizing that because PRT uses fewer kilowatt hours per passenger while providing a better service for the riders, costs less per mile and provides far more access, is designed to be 100% wheelchair and bicycle friendly, and its operation is paid for solely by its fares, that ending the tax payer giveaways to bus and light rail is best for the citizens of their community. One of these groups is going to take a critical eye towards the light rail industry and begin to ask if there are alternatives. From there, it is a simple trip to the internet, perhaps a visit to Heathrow to witness a working PRT system for their own eyes. Or they could take a trip to Sweden and see the fully functional Vectus test track working with their vehicles and stations. The numbers don't lie and no amount of confabulation can mask the success of PRT once people actually get to see it working.

City council members know when they are being hoodwinked by light rail companies. They have tolerated it this long because that was the only available option. Even though I showed in a previous post that they could, for the same amount of money, lease a luxury vehicle for each light rail and bus rider, pay for their gas and insurance and probably have a little money left over. I wonder how fast I'd be laughed out of the council chambers if I suggested they give away luxury cars to all the poor people...
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