'HILLARY for PRESIDENT?' ...by CINDY SHEEHAN

[Jcrowley]

Saturday, January 20th, 2007
'Hillary for President?' ...by Cindy Sheehan

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

13 people killed in a helicopter crash today in Iraq. Two other soldiers and one marine also killed.

16 people dead in the last two days in a war that the Senator has supported since she first voted "yea" to give Bloody George carte-blanche to invade Iraq and her continuing support via her "yea" votes on giving the war-addict in the White House the key to the treasury.

<snip>

I supported the candidate for Senate in New York that ran a very courageous, anti-war race against Clinton: Jonathan Tasini. CODEPINK New York did amazing work dogging the Senator and her supporters everywhere that she went and outing the fact that she is a Republican in Democratic clothing. Unfortunately, the people of New York spoke and Clinton, the pro-war candidate beat out Jonathan. The conservative area that she and President Clinton moved their carpet bags to after their presidency was over had a major impact on the last elections.

I, my sister, Dede, and another Gold Star Mother, Lynn Braddach, whose son, Travis Nall was killed in Iraq in 2003, met with Sen. Clinton in DC in September of 2005. We poured our hearts and souls out to her. We cried as we told her of our sons and our fear for the people of Iraq and the escalating body count of our brave young people. She sat there stone-faced and walked out and told Sarah Ferguson, of the Village Voice, "My bottom line is that I don't want their sons to die in vain.... I don't believe it's smart to set a date for withdrawal.... I don't think it's the right time to withdraw." She may as well have slapped us in the face using Bloody George's line and using our son's sacrifice to justify her war-mongering.

<snip>

I, again, affirm my commitment to peace. I don't care if it is a man or a woman; Democrat or Republican; white or black; Christian, Jew or otherwise. I will only support a candidate who is courageously and uncompromisingly committed to peace.

Hillary Clinton is not that person. She never will be. History speaks louder than words.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=811

[roamer65]

1. You go girl!

Say it like it is, Cindy!

[Hardrada]

2. I agree.

Do not support Hillary who has not been a friend of peace and progressive movements.

[illinoisprogressive]

3. Cindy as right on target as ever. Bravo!

[ShortnFiery]

4. Here here!

All of America's Corporate Media and all of the Pundits (both right wing and DLC) can NOT make up for all her warmongering and pandering to the right.

Go ahead and spend all that money Hil. It won't work. ;)

[Jcrowley]

6. Remember this?

Mama Warbucks
Hillary Clinton brings home the dollars for New York's defense contractors
by Kristen Lombardi
May 3rd, 2005 11:10 AM


WHO GETS WHAT
Senator Hillary Clinton may never see New York return to its glory days of defense contracting, when it was known as the "cradle of aviation." But she's trying. In fiscal 2003—before Clinton got her spot on the committee—New York ranked 13 out of 50 states in contracts, with $4.3 billion. Today, the latest statistics show that the Empire State has nudged up a point to 12 in the nation, with $5.2 billion in procurements.

Maybe it's a coincidence. Or maybe not. Many senators on Armed Services hail from the states ranking highest in Pentagon money. Here is a list of the top 10 states receiving defense contracts in fiscal 2004; also noted is whether the state has anyone on the committee:


1. California, received $27.9 billion
2. Virginia, $23.5 billion, represented by Senator John Warner, the majority chairman
3. Texas, $21 billion, Senator John Cornyn
4. Maryland, $9.2 billion
5. Connecticut, $9 billion, Senator Joe Lieberman
6. Arizona, $8.43 billion, Senator John McCain
7. Florida, $8.4 billion, Senator Bill Nelson
8. Massachusetts, $7 billion, Senator Edward Kennedy
9. Missouri, $6.5 billion, Senator James Talent
10. Pennsylvania, $6.2 billion
When someone like Newt Gingrich commends a Democrat's service on the Senate Armed Services Committee, you know you're looking at a serious hawk. That hawk is Hillary Clinton, junior senator from blue-state New York and possible presidential candidate in 2008.

<snip>

When not fending off terrorists or bucking up the troops in Iraq, Clinton has been equally fierce about defending defense dollars for her home state.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0518,lombardi,63597,5.html

[ShortnFiery]

11. How many of our Congress people are invested in the Military Industrial Complex?

Remember, many people above my (and many of us not in the upper 5%) pay grade have EXTRA money for "wealth management."

Don't you think that the people have a right to know how much each of our Congressional Representatives has invested in corporations that support the Weapon's Industry or those connected to the Military Industrial Complex

WAR is BIG BUSINESS!!! Many of our representatives are INVESTED. I want to know how much our beloved soldier's lives are worth in their personal portfolios?

WE MUST SHUT DOWN THE WAR MACHINE! As such, we must wash out the corporate elite and warmongering congressional representatives.

We owe our children - our best efforts to stop the lure of perpetual war(s).

[phylny]

77. I learned about war being big business when we lived near DC.

The local news station had commercials for defense contracters constantly. I was amazed to hear them when we first moved there.

[MyNameGoesHere]

42. Yep

and it looks like Kennedy brought in a couple more billion than Clinton. So that means obviously he is a hawk that supports the military industrial complex.

cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs

[Individualist]

5. Continuing to speak truth to power

Brava Cindy! :applause:

[pennylane100]

7. I agree with Cindy

on just about everything. She should run for president.

[MasonJar]

8. I think that Hillary Clinton should be given a close look. She may

be our candidate. By all means vote against her in the primaries, but we must all support whichever Democrat is chosen by the majority. The modern day Repug is simply too frightening to be believed. We have allowed this cabal to continue to exist to the detriment of the entire world. That is not fair. Go, Hill and Edwards and Obama and Bill and Clark and anyone else who wants to serve. Remember these are citizens who want to represent America, not neocons who want to take over other sovereign countries' oil reserves and aggrandize their friends and contributors. We will certainly not agree with everything any of our candidates say or do, but they are all superior people. I am personally proud of each and every one of them.

[aquart]

20. Nancy and Hillary going head to head.

That's a confrontation that would get Vegas odds.

[oasis]

9. Cindy calling Hill and Bill "carpetbaggers" is a wee bit pedestrian.

:-(

[aquart]

21. Americans are not carpetbaggers in their own country.

It does not become Cindy to use a Confederate slur.

[oasis]

22. I appreciate what Cindy has done for the anti-war movement, but I

think she would benefit from a few weeks of rest.

[aquart]

27. But she can't rest.

She dealt with her grief by trying to end a war and that doesn't allow rest.

She may burn herself up and out, but she took the extreme position that needed to be taken. She has done us as great, and maybe greater, service as her son.

Hillary did vote for the war. It still sticks in my craw. Cindy is absolutely right to call her on it.

I seem to be beginning to have a problem with name-calling (of which I am hardly an innocent). This isn't the only place I've taken exception to it. Maybe I'm the one who needs a rest.

[malaise]

37. 100% correct n/t

[derby378]

44. As Neil Young once sang, "It's better to burn out than it is to rust"

Cindy has thrown herself heart and soul into trying to transform our overall perception of the occupation of Iraq, and although her efforts have produced fruit, there is still much work to be done.

[kdpeters]

87. She still has a couple more years before she'll be able to do that with any success.

She hasn't even hit three years. I wouldn't bet she can even see why she even care about the future. Takes a long time to trust that anything you will ever do won't just get ripped away again.

But thanks for the concern anyway.

[Canuckistanian]

84. Agreed. This "carpetbagger" meme is used too often.

Are you an American? Then you're free to move wherever you want. That's true freedom, right?

It's not a country of individual fiefdoms.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. I can't vote for Hillary if she's not for detaching the milindus people from the Treasury ASAP.

But -then- who do you vote for...

[Tellurian]

12. Well then, Hillary has a lot of making up to do..

and she better get it done or she's in a peck of trouble!
The time has come for the foot dragging to turn into stepping
up to the plate.

If she doesn't take care of Cindy, she might as well stay home!

[David Dunham]

13. Cindy is becoming a whack-job, divorced from political realities.

[Mz Pip]

14. Cindy's

opinion carries little weight with me. I am not going to base my vote on what Cindy thinks. God help us all if that is where we are going.

Hillary isn't my first choice. But that is not based on anything Cindy has to say.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Jcrowley]

18. Hillary

is a corporatist. She is deeply embedded with the US Military Industrial Complex. There is no denying this.

It matters not what Cindy Sheehan or you or I say this is the reality. She is quite to the right on the political spectrum. It only appears as it does because American politics has swung so wildly to the right.

If you are for health care for all the citizens of the US she is not the one. If you are for furtherance of the American imperial project she is a candidate worthy of consideration.

[Jcrowley]

16. Could you

please quantify what you deem political realities.

Maybe a short list or something.

And who creates those realities? Are those realities benefitting the people? If they are not should they be changed?

[bluedog]

49. isn't cindy a green party voter? n/t

[LittleClarkie]

81. That would be a new one. I've heard Dem, I've Repub,

She does talk like a Nader person sometimes though. So Green would make sense.

[The Wielding Truth]

79. Cindy is not wacky. Her cause is peace. Viva, Cindy!

[kdpeters]

85. You live in luxury divorced from wartime realities. That's her journey. Politics is yours..

Besides. "divorced from political realities" sounds complimentary. I might personally find political realities divorced from the real world. But I would never walk up and admit that I thought of you that way.

[bonito]

15. K&R

[fooj]

17. K/R

[Tom Joad]

19. Will Hillary's war on Iran be bloodier than Bush's war on Iraq?

[oasis]

54. Who provided you with information that Hill is pursuing a war with Iran?

I'd like to know more about it.:wow:

[obnoxiousdrunk]

103. It doesn't hurt

to make s*it up.

[unkachuck]

23. thank you....

....Cindy, for speaking the truth....

[OutNow]

24. I will support Dennis Again

Cindy is an articulate spokesperson for the peace movement, and I think she's right about Clinton. I supported Dennis in 2004 and will support him again in 2008. I will support Clinton the day after she apologizes for her support for the war and pledges to work every minute of every day to end US involvement in the Iraq tragedy. I'm not holding my breath.

Bring the troops home now!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Cindy pulls Hillary's covers expertly and accurately.

"...courageously and uncompromisingly committed to peace." Which a certain senator from NY isn't.

[EFerrari]

26. Cindy has a knack for saying outright what most of us are reluctant to say.

I can't vote for Hillary Clinton.

I can't work for her.

Please don't nominate her because I want to work and to vote for the Democratic nominee.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

28. kicked

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MyNameGoesHere]

43. funny

you pick Clinton out of all the enablers. You like joe lieberman?

[derby378]

45. Lieberman has transformed himself into a GOP Trojan Horse

He's not even worth mentioning here, as he ran against the duly-nominated Democratic candidate for Senate - with tons of Republican help, as they threw their own candidate under the bus.

What's more, Chuck Schumer even threatened to send DSCC money to support Lieberman's "independent" bid for the Senate. Thus, the "Trojan Horse" analogy. Lieberman has turned out to be poison.

[Buzz Clik]

47. Gotta love it.

Care to tell us the crime she committed?

(This is a rhetorical question -- I'm not interested in engaging you. However, I do want you to know that your claim is beyond silly.)

[Cameron27]

50. Better get the shackles

ready for Kerry & Edwards then:eyes:

I think Cindy's going third party.

[Neshanic]

30. Cindy speaks the truth. Does not get simpler than that.

[Imagevision]

31. Yes but Americans can't handle the truth

[kimsterdemster]

32. Thanks for posting this..

Dear Cindy,

I'm with you, Dennis Kucinich is the only one worth voting for right now. Please, we have to figure out how to get Al Gore or Wes Clark to represent us. I want someone to run who said from the beginning NO WAR in Iraq, Iraq had nothing to do with 911!

Peace my Brothers and Sisters, Bring the troops home NOW!!!






>

[OneBlueSky]

33. the presidency is the Democrats' to lose in 2008 . . . nominating Hillary might just do it . . .n/t

.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

86. I think you're right....asking repubs to vote for Hillary is like asking us to vote for Laura

What I keep thinking about is...Hillary had to know about PNAC, and if she didn't, shame on her.

She, Kerry, Edwards and the whole lot of them had to know that Cheney was primed to go into Iraq and Iran even before 9-11.

Why did these politicians let this happen? Why was it that Cheney’s plan of world domination not brought up during the ‘04 elections? ... The meekness or the political ambitions of these leaders put us where we are today.

:patriot:

[Pachamama]

34. I would love a woman President, but Hillary is not the one for me or this country...

I say that and its not because of anything that Cindy has said above or not. I have to say that while I have supported her even financially in the past for her bid for Senate, I think her running for President is a bad idea. I just watched her in an interview on CNN. Her position on Iraq and even when asked directly whether she regretted her 2002 War Authorization Vote was a perfect George W. Bush answer and the interviewer asked her twice more and she still refused to say it was a mistake only the same ole' "Had we known then what we knew now..." answer. As I watched that exchanged, I actually found myself getting angry and losing respect for her. In fact, as I continued to listen to her explanation for how we need to conduct the war in Iraq in a "smarter fashion" and how she would do it as Commander in Chief, I actually felt like I was listening to George W. Bush or Joe Lieberman etc. She went on and on about the strategic importance of this region and the issues involved and blah blah blah...I heard way too much to see that she is officially out of touch with the vast majority of us and just plain wrong on Iraq.

Nope, its bad enough that Hillary can be one of the most divisive people I have ever seen who can make even the most moderate Democrat or Republican's heads spin. This by the way is something I seriously consider to be the single biggest reason that she couldn't ever win in the final Presidential election because these same moderates would consider voting for a Democrat, but not for Hillary, and that is what will cost the election if she happens to be the candidate nominated by the Democratic Party. So that simple (and critical) fact is bad enough, but combined with her non-answers and stance on the War and refusal to admit any mistakes of her own, makes her simply the absolutely wrong choice for the Democratic vote, and certainly not my vote.

I want a great President and who will do what's best for this country and also to end this awful illegal occupation of Iraq. That candidate is not Hillary Clinton and never will be.

[Swamp Rat]

89. Amen Pachamama!

:hi: :hug:

Hillary voted for the war, which means I cannot for her. She, like many politicians today, is owned by the military industrial complex.

[wiley]

35. The only JCrowley post I have ever disagreed with. It's not worth posting.

It's so bitter that it appeals to only a few people. Iraq war critics are not all alike, and Cindy is obviously in need of a rest. All great activists run on fumes sometimes. She needs to rest a moment. She also says she'll support a Democrat or Republican, the goes on about her Tasini the Green support. Please, Cindy, rest. You have accomplished more than most people accomplish in their lifetimes.

[Leopolds Ghost]

39. You seem to think it's Cindy's job to promote Democratic politicians

And that when they are famous, she is contractually obliged to worship them.

[VenusRising]

36. Bravo Cindy! Bravo!!

I think Cindy is right on target. I get so aggravated every time I see another article talking about Hill going after video games when real people are dying in Iraq. She gives more attention to pixels than flesh and blood, and that is not presidential to me at all. I won't vote for her even if she gets the nom. I would rather abstain or write in Al Gore's name.

[BooScout]

38. To be blunt.......

Cindy Sheehan is not the know all, end all expert in assessing blame for the Iraq War. She, nor her son are/were martyrs. If she wants to blame someone for her son's death, she needs to start with Bush and she needs a reality check regarding her own's son's decision to join the military in the first place.

70 percent of America supported the war initially. 70 percent. I never did....and many if not most here never supported it either. But face, it......we were in the minority. Even Kerry supported Bush initially in his desire to go into Iraq.

As anti-war as I am.....I can also understand Clinton's desire not to abandon the Iraqi people after we have virtually destroyed their country.....however I also am of the belief that nothing we can do will ever even begin to restore order to the chaos we caused. There is no easy answer here folks. We (America) went into Iraq and quite simply stirred up a hornet's nest. If we pull out now what will happen? Does staying in Iraq simply prolong the inevitable? Is there any right or wrong answer? Yes we are all sick of seeing Americans die in vain for George Bloody Bush's ambitions of grandeur....but by God I am damn sick of people condemning Hillary as the cause of Cindy Sheehan's son's death. Frankly just about every national politician failed us and worst of all, we failed ourselves in letting the fucking idiots drag us down their damned primrose path in the first place.

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. That is the Republican position

"It's Cindy's son's fault for serving in the military. I would never
send MY child off to war, but the people who went have an obligation
to stay there in Iraq and protect our nation from further harm."

This is actually a quite common -stated- "objection to the war" amongst
the socially liberal, economically wealthy Republican elite.

[Tellurian]

41. I for one, am not blaming Hillary for the War...

anyone that does is $0.10 short of a $1.00 and not to be believed. Think about it, if Hillary had voted "no" would she have been the deciding vote that stopped the War? If she were the deciding vote would Cheney have been sitting home watching cable tv abrogating his role as Tie Breaker in the Senate?...you know the answer to that, as well as I do.

Here is what Cindy was told by other people she contacted:

"I was told that the Senator was really against the war, but she was waiting for the politically correct time to come out against it. I was told that she was the best hope for the Democrats in 2008, and I should give her a break."

Maybe the words, "give her a break" wasn't the best choice of words to use on a broken hearted mother. In retrospect, what they told her was/is true. Hillary WAS powerless to do anything then and IS powerless NOW to stop the War. We're seeing this daily with the Legislation introduced by Kennedy and Leahy... and a response from the White House virtually thumbing their noses at the creators of the Legislation; Bush stating, He doesn't need approval from Congress..."He's the Decider".

I wasn't aware Cindy, in retaliation, was advised or decided to support Hillary's opponent here:

"Jonathan Tasini. CODEPINK New York did amazing work dogging the Senator and her supporters everywhere that she went and outing the fact that she is a Republican in Democratic clothing. Unfortunately, the people of New York spoke and Clinton, the pro-war candidate beat out Jonathan."

Was/is Cindy being used as a tool (by Republicans) against Hillary or was this just the result of emotional desperation on Cindy's part? (Anyone that has followed Cindy closely, I'd appreciate some input here.)

Using a simple process of deduction, Cindy is left standing exactly where she was told would be the time Senator Clinton could do something to help her.

It seems Cindy has been ill advised about how to get things done by the people closest to her. The fact remains, Senator Clinton, now a declared candidate in the Presidential race, IS her only hope. Hillary is the strongest candidate in the race so far, and to Cindy's benefit, Hillary IS against the Iraq War.

So, what is Cindy's plan now? Campaign against Hillary and support a dubious Republican Pro-War presidential candidate? Or is she too proud to take an (emotional) step back and wait for Hillary?

an aside:

I can see now, where some of the posters here supporting another presidential hopeful, (*ahem*) the one having trouble making up his mind whether to run or not, have plagiarized Cindy's words, "Democrat in Republicans clothing" against the Clintons in other threads... (cheap shot, by the bellowing anti-corruption crowd, when you can't come up with your own BS...theft, in this case is ok though!)

[Miss Chybil]

46. I agree with you. Not really on the "volunteer" part, because I spent

nine volunteer years in the Army myself and I was simply lucky George W. Bush was not the president during the time I served. I used to think I could trust the "Commander in Chief," no matter who he was, not to do anything horrendously stupid. I actually thought the American people were smarter than to vote for a freaking idiot. I used to trust us. Ha! Was I naive!

Anyway, I feel for Cindy, as I feel for all families who have lost their loved ones in this quagmire we've created. My initial thought is, like Cindy, we should pull out immediately and let the chips fall where they may. I don't think this is a totally rational thought, though, given the chips are so explosive. There has to be a middle-ground, like the "redeployment" to Kuwait plan. I don't know. This is such a huge and overwhelming mess. I don't know how to fix it and neither does anybody else.

George Bush has killed Humpty Dumpty and we are all still trying to put him back together again. It's going to take a miracle.

Anyway, Cindy does not tell me who to vote for anymore than anyone else does. I'll make that decision on my own.

[Tellurian]

51. Just to clarify a few points..

The American people aren't STUPID..

Bush stole both elections. Gore's presidential bid in 00'and Kerry's in 04'..

Factor in the Touch Scan voting machines and there you have the simple
answer of how it was done and who the eventual winner was.

[Miss Chybil]

52. Points well clarified!

Forgive me. :yoiks:

[Tellurian]

67. nothing to forgive, Miss Chybil..

:hi:

[provis99]

62. you can't blame electronic voting machines for Reagan being elected twice

[Tellurian]

66. no, that was the democrats fault..

and there wasn't the internet then either.

Thanks, Al!

:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

48. Excellent post.

[gratefultobelib]

53. BooScout--thank you for this this post. As you say, it is blunt, but

I believe you have accurately summed up what many of us believe.

[brg5001]

59. Which "Iraqi People" would we be abandoning?

Booscout: Thanks for identifying the myth spot on. That's Bushco's "logic" -- that there was(is) this mythical peaceful Swiss village just waiting to be born in Iraq if just hang on against the mean 'ol BAD GUYS. Why would Hillary, or anyone else, intentionally prop up this childish scenario which is based on an intentional misreading of history and a purposeful denial of reality? The only reason that many of us can come up with is that Hillary believes in an imperialist vision of America and a vast expansion of the military-industrial complex. She's not stupid, so I guess she's just crafty. No one who recognizes this madness for what it is can support Hillary Clinton at this point.

[nealmhughes]

55. Ms. Sheehan is correct in her accessment of Mrs. Clinton, regarding her hawkishness

for example, consider her NO vote on the Feinstein-Leahy Amendment which would have terminated civilian use of cluster bombs. Evidently the AIPAC lobby got to her...as they did so many Democrats and all the Republicans on this vote.
Mrs. Clinton's newfound provinciality is also evident in her holdup of the new Ryan White funding forumalae in which she held up the bill until her state's funding remained static, and to pour salt into the wounds, made vague promises of "full funding in the future" and "Medicare for all HIV+ people on day..." Now those aren't the actual quotes, but they are basicly what she said.
Four are dead in SC due to lack of ADAP money (a portion of which is from the states and the feds via Ryan White) and SC has over 300 people on their HAART waiting lists...
Thank you, Mrs. Clinton for just voting to maintain the status quo and let a bunch of lobbyists get to you..perhaps Milady should lunch less and research more, finding out what cluster bomb bomblets look like (bright colorful balls perfect for a child's exploration in Lebanon) and stood her ground for full funding for Ryan White and actually not have sat on the fence as she always does, it seems, when there is any likelihood of her having controversey as denoted by the focus groups and her "advisors" or the horrid US media.
Screw HRC, I say. Susan Collins looks and talks more like a Democrat at times than does Mrs. Clinton.

[brg5001]

56. Weasel words from Hillary on possibly the most important issue of our lifetime

Hillary is (strangely) looked at by the right wing as some kind of leftist. Please.

Her artful dodging on this speaks volumes. Let's cut to the chase: I used to support Edwards in '08 until DU posters educated me about his behavior leading up to the war/occupation. At first I defended him on the basis that MANY Americans, myself included, were taken in by Bushco's lies. But the reality is that believing those lies was a choice: The truth was out there, and brave Americans like Kucinich, Gore, Conyers, Feingold et al had the cojones to call Bushco's 'splendid little war' an OUTRAGE at a time when doing so was supremely unpopular. That, to me, is called leadership.

Hillary has managed to piss off individuals of every political stripe. She has zero chance of becoming president and doesn't deserve to. I am tired of excuses, half-measures and poor attempts at apology. Edwards needs to admit that he got caught up in the war hysteria, and Hillary needs to admit that she favors a continuation of the conflict under the management of Bushco. Because if she doesn't favor getting out, that's exactly what we have on our hands -- Bushco will continue to reign knowing that, sadly, Dems like Hillary and LIEberman won't make waves. Screw her and the horse she rode in on.

[provis99]

63. Hillary is a triangulator just like Bill

but whereas Bill did it to ensure SOME of his bills were passed by a hostile Congress, Hillary doesn't have any particular reason to triangulate now, except that it would let her capture moderate and conservative votes, by advocating moderate and conservative positions. Well, if she adopts these positions, she ain't liberal in my book, and so there's no reason to vote for her when better choices exist.

[Hamlette]

57. this is exactly why ideologists on both sides make idiots of themselves

setting a date wasn't in many playbooks in Sept 2005. Back then some of us held out hope we could fix what we broke.

So we were wrong. The only people who believe they are right all the time are ideologues. You'd think we'd had enough of them.

[brg5001]

58. This is not about ideology: It's about leadership and judgement

I strongly disagree with the way you have framed this. It sounds an awful lot like Joe Lieberman's reasoning (which is an oxymoron.)

We need a candidate who shows determination, foresight and leadership. The best way to identify those qualities is to look at the candidate's record on the most important issue of our time. Hillary chose to believe the big lies at the time the war was being drawn up and has continued to buttress Bushco with her inability to articulate a clear and consistent message on the war. Whether many of us believed in 2005 that we could "fix what we broke" is irrelevant -- what matters is how our senators and representatives chose to deal with the truth which by then was staring all of them in the face. The first step to correcting a serious mistake is to determine why it was made in the first place.

Because Hillary helped to facilitate this debacle, she must admit that her decision to ride Bushco's coattails into the bottomless pit was part of the problem. However, she has decided to try to make excuses in a way that is most unbecoming and transparently self-serving. This isn't about Hillary being above "ideology", it's about her continued support for a process which is dysfunctional, deadly, horrific and stupid. She can't be a part of the solution because she is part of the problem. "I was wrong for supporting the war because I deliberately chose to ignore the truth." That's all she can say. I made the same error in my life, but I'm not running for president.

When "Earth in the Balance" was released, I was a conservative who chose to ignore the facts because I thought that Al Gore was promoting a liberal ideology. I was an ideologue, and he was right.

When Bushco lied America into this disaster, some people were fooled. I was one of them. Others, who were in positions of power, chose to ignore the facts, and jumped on the RahRah Bandwagon right along with me and 70% of the American public. So who, exactly, are the ideologues in this debate? The people who were leaders under extreme pressure, or the ones who side with Hillary and Bushco? This Triangulation crap you Hilarites are pulling is just that -- crap. The alternative to the Neocons isn't another freakin' Neocon.

[Hamlette]

64. so all people who supported this war at one time or another are

to be trashed in emotion laden arguments about that one issue and without looking at any thing else?

Since you said you were fooled by bush and his arguments for this war so why then should I listen to one word you say? Isn't that the same thing Cindy is saying? We shouldn't listen to Hillary because she too was "fooled" or saw it another way?

That is the problem with ideologues. They stop listening because they have all the answers.

I do not want them to be running my country any more which why I can't support DK or Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan (and maybe not Obama) for president. This is a terrible time for our country. We are in much worse shape than we have been since Vietnam. I want thoughtful people. Not one note wonders.

I am sick of soundbites and people who think this is simple. I want us out of Iraq as quickly as possible if there is some way we can save the lives of innocent Iraqis in the process I want us to give that serious consideration.

[brg5001]

65. The way to save lives is to get out. There is no military solution.

Hillary was NOT fooled. She chose to believe the lies because it was expedient to do so. Cindy Sheehan never excused Hillary and neither will I.

By the way, you mention that ideolgoues don't listen...but are YOU listening? I'm glad that I haven't stopped listening. I previously supported Edwards until I learned that he followed the herd on the war instead of seeking out the truth. Are you willing to admit the truth about Hillary? Or is it easier to tar me as an "ideologue" and excuse Hillary for talking out of her neck?

It's not fair to call anyone an ideologue for pointing out the TRUTH and the FACTS about Hillary's support for this war. The way to save lives has been made very clear -- by the experts Bushco fired, by the strategists Buscho ignored, and by the Iraq Study Group that Buscho dismissed. It's to get OUT and stop trying to play World Cop for a nation (Iraq) that is not a nation at all, and which is the center of a regional conflict in which every move we make kills thousands more. Our presence is the problem. That's not an ideology, it's a fact and if Hillary intentionally refuses to recognize it then she doesn't deserve the progressive vote or anyone else's vote.

Iraq is not a single issue -- it's the most important issue because it has bearing on everything else that progressives hope to accomplish toward building a better America and a better world.

Hillary's supporters' argument is essentially this: Because lots of people were lied to by Bush, let's vote for someone else who believed those lies. The decision to believe those lies was intentional...the truth was out there but it was easier to go along with the crowd, especially when making cold, calculated moves toward the approval of the increasingly marginal "Christian Right". I'm on DU because as Steven Colbert put it, "reality has a liberal bias", and I'm deeply suspicious of anyone trying to say that my worldview is just an ideology that rejects facts and embraces emotion. That's nonsense. When the facts don't support an argument, then it's the argument that should be changed. Hillary refuses to take responsibility for her embrace of Bushco and she's attempting to have it both ways. Cindy is just the messenger. Sorry that the news is bad for your candidate.

[Hamlette]

68. you said:

"Our presence is the problem."

Everything I have read leads me to believe that there are many problems in Iraq and the biggest one right now is in Baghdad where there is a civil war between the two main factions of Islam. The two split 1300 years ago and have been having problems ever since. How the hell does that have anything to do with us? I'm there to take blame for the Shah in Iran and a million other things we have done wrong, but the civil war in Iraq? Nope. I don't see it.

you said:

"The decision to believe those lies was intentional...the truth was out there but it was easier to go along with the crowd, especially when making cold, calculated moves toward the approval of the increasingly marginal "Christian Right"."

I see it differently. I DO NOT excuse Hillary for her vote and she is NOT my candidate but I do not see the war in Iraq as a Christian Right issue. While it may be true that some of the people who supported the war in Iraq were the crazy Christianists, and when the dust settles we may conclude that that was Bush's reason for going to war in Iraq but I'm not there yet. I think it was the neocons and I think Bush bought into their philosophy which is not based on religion at all.

Foreign policy is a mix between realism and idealism. Bush ignored the realism part. Hillary may have done so too but I'm willing to listen to what she has to say now and about other issues. If I don't do that with politicans I can't vote because there is not now nor has there ever been a politician (even a person) with whom I agree on every issue. Yeah, war in Iraq is a biggie and I was damned pissed when Congress approved the resolution but I lived through Vietnam and I know what our opposition to that war cost us as a party. It gave us Gingrich, and Bush and Iraq and a polarized country.

you said:

"I previously supported Edwards until I learned that he followed the herd on the war instead of seeking out the truth."

It would be nice to see it all so clearly. Edwards is a great and decent man who has dedicated him life to helping people less fortunate than himself and fighting evil corporations and holding them responsible. I too wish he had not voted for the war but I don't see it as the only issue as you do. So I will keep listening to him. I'm not supporting anyone yet. There is plenty of time to get all riled up by presidential politics. In all honesty the one who is pissing me off the most right now is Obama and he didn't vote for the war. Under your rules he and DK are my only current options.

I'm not tarring you as an ideologue. You are.

[mistertrickster]

75. YES. All the people who supported this war at one time or another

are idiots.

I'm sitting here in little old Kansas, and before the invasion, I predicted the whole damn thing. http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/02/01_war.html http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/10/23_dubya.html

I was able to do that simply by looking at what happens when countries invade and occupy other countries--US in Vietnam, Israel in Palestine, France in Algeria, etc. etc.

You'd think a sitting Senator would be a little smarter than an ordinary citizen who paid attention in history class.

No excuses. She f*cked up. She's out.

[Jcrowley]

78. Hillary wasn't fooled at all

She is a part of the Military apparatus, the consummate corporate political candidate. You misunderstand her role in the larger scheme of Beltway politics if you think there is even a faint chance of Hillary advocating and acting upon any serious Iraq exit plan. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

She is completely betrothed to the US military-industrial complex, Lockheed-Martin in particular, and would never dream of cutting the bloated Pentagon budget for necessary social services such as Universal Single-Payer health care.

She is not a progressive and not even a liberal. American politics has shifted so dramatically to the right that someone such as Hillary may appear to be a moderate but she is not, she is very hawkish and she always has been.

We are way past the point of needing fresh faces with progressive ideas who will stand up to the Corporate-Military Machine that is destroying all of our lives and imperiling our children's future. In that light rest assured Hillary is nowhere near to helping us in that respect, she is instead an obstacle to any government that puts people's needs over corporate greed.

[mistertrickster]

94. I totally agree. She's the epitome of "Republicrat" we need to root out

of our party. The role of government is not to make the rich, richer. Somebody should tell the Clintons' that.

"The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armadillos." Jim Hightower

[brg5001]

100. Nail hit on head, JCrowley EOM

[LittleClarkie]

83. And Hillary isn't backing Bush now. Did Cindy not hear about that?

She lost me some when I read a piece over at Counterpunch where she says that Bill killed more Iraqis than Bush, and should have been impeached but not for the reasons he WAS impeached, rather making it sound like she thought Bill was worse that Bush, which is hard to fathom.

[Jcrowley]

90. In what way?

You say she is not backing Bush now does this mean she is calling for US troop withdrawal? Does this mean she will not vote for additional funding for the US project in Iraq? Does this mean she is calling for "No permanent US bases in Iraq?" I have not seen this information.

I'm not sure what you are saying here do you have any specific comments by Hillary and links?

More importantly can you list some of the concrete ACTIONS that Hillary is involved in to stop the Neocon agenda in Iraq?

I'm not sure when that piece you refer to was listed but of course we know the toll from the sanctions (Clinton years) to be at leat 1.5 million (UN sources) and that the toll from the most recent attack to be around 500,000-700,000. Now of course the sanctions were over a much longer period of time and the current toll, even if the war stopped today, would exceed the number we already know about. But let's say the death toll under Bush is 3 times the toll under Clinton is that okay? and more to the point any astute and honest evaluation of the situation would see a very fluid connection between the two administrations as regards foreign policy in the Middle East and the accompanying carnage.

Tallying up the numbers and assessing degrees of genocidal culpability is really insane.

[LittleClarkie]

95. She's recently said she can't support the surge

But I'm not a Hillary person, so quoting chapter and verse on her will have to come from someone else. All I know is that she didn't support the surge.

[specimenfred1984]

60. Yeeeeeeeehawllllllllllllll, let the games commence

Pro-war vs. anti-war, it's amazing how many people really are pro-war and will go to absolute extremes to hide it.

[brg5001]

71. Behind the talk of "hurting the party" is a subtle pro-war stance

I agree with you, Specimenfred1984. It's the Republicans who will be divided in 2008, and we have nothing to lose by sticking to our principles. Why do so many people on this board seem to fear a real debate about what is happening with these Bushco apologists?

The Iraq disaster was cooked up in Bushco's kitchen but it was a bunch of our own Democrats who served dinner. The people are on our side, and all of this talk about overlooking politicians because we like how they stand on Head Start or Social Security Reform or something is absolutely insane. The decision to invade Iraq is a metaphor for mass suicide. The refusal to admit the error must be viewed as a form of continued support for the original f*&%ed up policy -- in other words, it's indefensible to continue to be pro-war and excuse the so-called Democrats that got us into this mess if they won't at the very least admit that we've got to (1) Investigate the invasion as the crime that it is and (2) Get the hell out now as there is no military solution.

$8 billion a month, people, down a military-industrial rat-hole from which some will never emerge, or never again see, or never again walk or talk. People, you are f*&&ing sick if you defend anyone who supports this psychosis.

[Madspirit]

76. Hilarious

**Why do so many people on this board seem to fear a real debate...**


:rofl:

Oh, maybe because you say this in the same fucking post:


**it's indefensible to continue to be pro-war and excuse the so-called Democrats that got us into this mess...
People, you are f*&&ing sick if you defend anyone who supports this psychosis.**


That's not real debate. Anytime anyone here says anything contrary they get accused of being a Republican. It's peculiar. ...but this was rich, all in the same damned post.


Perhaps you should look up the definition of "debate".

:rofl:

Madspirit

[brg5001]

96. I didn't call her a Republican, I just don't think her behavior is defensible

We need to have this debate. I was disagreeing with another poster who stated that we were shooting ourselves in the foot because of it. I do find it disgusting that many people still support the continuation of this endless war, as long of course as it's someone else who's coming home with a shattered eye socket or missing an arm or a leg or both, or with severe brain injuries. It absolutely sickens me, and with all we know about the war and its continuing costs I am absolutely dumbfounded that anyone can shill for Hillary Clinton. From your post, you find it all so hilarious. Hillary's efforts at "triangulation" aren't funny, and I'm not deterred by your sarcasm. It's an emotional issue no doubt, but you Hillarites are all over this board sending up test balloons for her campaign strategy. You'll get no sarcasm from me: The strategy isn't working, she's not going to win the nomination, and the reason is that her message is transparently unclear. She's working for the military-industrial complex. Sorry you choose to back Hillary Clinton -- On the most important issue of our time, she's on the wrong side.

[Madspirit]

101. I didn't say...

I didn't say whether or not I particularly support Hillary, though I do think THE most important thing is getting the Republicans out of office. I don't think she will get the nomination.

I said I thought it was hilarious for you to claim you want real debate while calling anyone who disagrees with you awful names. THAT is not debate.

Personally, I would vote for a chair over a Republican. I also find it's almost always the straight, white, middle class who vote what they claim is their conscience...Nadarites, etc. ...BECAUSE when it comes down to it....who is in office, doesn't really affect their straight, white, middle class life. They don't need the health care, the food stamps, the mental health help, the recognition of their intimate relationship, etc. They are comfortable in their armchair spouting their ideals while others go hungry.
Madspirit

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

61. Neocons feel confident that Hilary couldn't win the general...

...election in '08. They will lean heavily on corporate MSM and DLC to do everything within their power to see that she is the '08 Dem presidential nominee -- that's a heavy ball and chain that will be hard to shake off.

[Beaverhausen]

69. So Cindy, if Hillary get the nomination, will you vote for her? Or will you support the repukes?

Or better yet, a third party which will guarantee a repuke victory?

Someone needs to remind Cindy who really started this war. It wasn't the democrats.

[mistertrickster]

74. You are correct, sir. BUT Hillary did vote to give the pResident the authority

to go to war.

That wasn't just stupid. That was f*cked.

I worked long and hard as a door-to-door campaigner for the Democrats last time. But this grass-roots activist is not going to vote for Hillary Clinton, period.

[Cha]

70. "don't want their sons to

die in vain". BULLSHIT! That's the most fucking bushit BULLSHIT arguement for continuing the slaughter in the Bullshitters' manual.

How about stopping the carnage that was started based on Bullshit LIES so no one else has to die for bush LIES?

Logical? You bet.

And who the fuck does hillary think she is? That she could consider to think for those Gold Star Mothers? hillary is shit.

[mistertrickster]

72. Damn right! Hillary didn't have the guts to fight the man who STOLE the

election in Florida? Who used her vote to justify an illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Some f*ck ups are so bad, you don't get to just walk away from them.

Let's make it clear to the business-as-usual Democrats: ANYBODY BUT HILLARY.

[RiverStone]

73. K & R - saved.

What better stated argument can we send to Hillary defenders then this?

Nuff said.

[freefall]

80. Right on, Cindy!!! I'm with you! n/t

[Canuckistanian]

82. Have to agree with Cindy on this one.

Hillary is not just against pulling the troops out. She has been uncomfortably close to the GOP's position on nearly everything, from flag-burning to her IWR vote and refusal to show regret.

What finally turned me off her for good was the way she threw Kerry under the bus for parroting RW talking points about the "botched joke" affair.

Hillary? No thanks.

:thumbsdown:

[ooglymoogly]

88. right on cindy girl...you are right on just about everything you

have tackled...and i for one am behind you...its the pugs and their mouthpiece the corporate fascist msm that is pushing hillery down our throats.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Cindy is RIGHT!

Hillary is a war monger. I remember when Cindy went to see her in 2005. She sent a letter to her supporters telling about how badly the meeting went. I was stunned. Until then, I had been a Hillary supporter. But not anymore.

Hillary has had beaucoups chances to make amends for her support of the war. And she refuses to do so.

[dsharp88]

92. 1) You know if Hillary gets the nomination...

Cindy will vote for her just like the rest of us. The alternative (not voting or 3d party voting) is taking away a vote that can defeat the neocon republican. I think 2000 taught us that lesson all too well. The worst eight years in American history was the result.

2) Hillary will be bound as any nominee by the Iraq strategy guidelines decided upon in Denver at the convention.

3) 2004's blue states + Arkansas = Victory for the good guys. Not just for Hillary. Works for Edwards + NC as well. Vilsack + IA. Richardson + NM.

I'm not saying.... I'm just saying.

[oasis]

93. Welcome to DU, Dsharp88.

:hi:

[Chimichurri]

97. She summed up my biggest gripe about Hillary. I will never vote for her.

Ever.

[theboss]

98. Here is my problem with Cindy: Her opinion means no more than mine

I have no problem with Cindy screaming from the mountaintops.

What bothers me is that she seems to think that because she is waving a bloody shirt, her opinion should matter more.

This line is my issue: "using our son's sacrifice to justify her war-mongering." Honestly, how is that any different than using her son's sacrifice to justify Cindy's war protesting? It was Casey's sacrifice. It does not belong to anyone else.

Also, my other issue with Cindy is how remarkably ill-informed she can be:

"The conservative area that she and President Clinton moved their carpet bags to after their presidency was over had a major impact on the last elections."

Hillary got 83! percent of the vote in the primary, and 67 percent in the general. Nothing "impacted" her election aside from the sun actually rising.

[shance]

102. Thank God Cindy is shouting. If your son had died for rich white men to make more money

off of the backs of everyone else then, one would think you might shout a little as well.

[LittleClarkie]

106. Well, her opinions re: the war are one thing

But when she wanders over to other progressive issues, her opinion shouldn't carry more weight than anyone elses. And questioning them shouldn't get me the "DO YOU HAVE A DEAD CHILD!?" response.

[bdamomma]

99. some of these candidates are just worried about their

political party and their aspirations, not ours.

[paulk]

104. Keep it up, Cindy!

The more you and the rest of the howler monkey left spout nonsense like this

the better it will be for HRC!

(and whatever other Dem. candidates you go after!)

Great job of making the anti war left look like a bunch of self important boobs, btw!

Actually, that's not such a good thing!

[Madspirit]

105. No Draft

As we don't have a draft, why did her son join the military? When you join the military you do so knowing you will have to follow the orders of the president. You never get to pick and choose where or if, you fight in a war. She's just a grieving mother doing anything to keep from having to look at that empty bedroom.
I hate Bush with a fiery passion but if I voluntarily joined the military....
Madspirit