My son graduated from high school on Thursday...

[TN al]

...and during the ceremony the valedictorian ended his speech by thanking Jesus "who died on the cross for my sins." This received a standing ovation from the audience. I was personally offended by his remark and by the reaction of the audience who would gladly tyrannize the minority by forcing them to listen to the sermon delivered by this young layman. This is after all a public school.

[Solly Mack]

1. otherwise his diploma would not have been possible?

I'd like to thank the academy

[enough]

2. I'm curious as to what part of the country you are in.

Was this a public school?

[Cha]

70. DUer, TN al, says it was

a public school and his profile puts him in Tennessee.

[dsc]

3. Oh please

That young man earned the right to speak and should be permitted to speak on what he wants. Government shouldn't be in the business of approving speeches.

[Catch22Dem]

5. Fuck him and his speech

I'm sure he and his fundie parents would be up in fucking arms if my daughter delivered a speech then thanked Allah. Fucking hypocrites.

[dsc]

9. They probably would

and that would make both of you hypocrites. Government shouldn't be editting speeches it doesn't get simpler than that.

[Catch22Dem]

12. I never implied the government should be involved in any way

And how does that make me a hypocrite? Not at all. I'm saying this little shit should have used some tact and consideration and left his religious leanings out of a speech delivered at a secular event. This is something I would have done, something my child would have done, and therefore makes me the opposite of a hypocrite. I'm not talking about government intervention. I'm talking about personal responsibility and consideration. I have it, he doesn't.

[dsc]

23. In fairness you didn't

and I shouldn't have assumed you would favor that.

[alarimer]

26. religious fundies do not have tact

They want to force their beliefs on anyone, including a captive audience like at a graduation.

[hfojvt]

56. ah yes, religion needs to be kept in the closet

apparently that is the highest moral principle known to humanity.

Such a demonstration of consideration to call somebody a little sh*t. You write something like "fu$% him and his speech" and say that you have tact? Is that a synonym for 'politeness' and 'courtesy' or does it have another meaning?

[Catch22Dem]

62. Of course I say that about him, and he SHOULD keep that shit to himself. It's offensive!

He can prostelytize all he wants, but when it comes to a speech at a public school graduation, it has no place. My personal belief it that people SHOULD keep their religion to themselves. That actually comes directly from Matthew 6:5:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

That works for me.

He is a little shit, and I'll stand by it. He didn't have any consideration for the students and families who may not believe what he believes. And I'll also reiterate, I'm confident he'd lead the student demonstration AGAINST any effort to allow someone to thank Allah at his graduation.

[hfojvt]

68. If people must keep their religion to themselves

then why not their personal beliefs as well?

Matthew 6: 5 says to "pray" in private, but it does not say to keep religion private. How could it when Jesus himself was publicly preaching? He was not keeping his religion private.

I guess my signature quote is offensive too since Jimmy did not have consideration for people at Ford's funeral who may not believe what he believes. Likewise Jesse Jackson, when he began his speech to the Democratic National Convention in 1984, with:
"Tonight we come together bound by our faith in a mighty God, with genuine respect and love for our country, and inheriting the legacy of a great party, the Democratic Party, which is the best hope for redirecting our nation on a more humane, just and peaceful course."

Or Al Gore, when he said this:
"I think the purpose of life is to glorify God. I turn to my faith as the bedrock of my approach to any important questions in my life."

Asked if he thought religion should be kept private, he said:
"I think that we have gone too far in conveying the impression that those in public life are obligated to refrain from ever acknowledging that they have a spiritual life and that they have a set of core beliefs. And I refuse to abide by that mis-what I regard as a misguided set of expectations. I freely acknowledge the role of faith in my life and the centrality of faith in my values system."

It is quite likely that the kid would protest somebody who thanked Allah, or maybe just boo them, but in that case he would be on your side. Islam is perhaps as offensive to him as Christianity and Islam and Judaism are to you. And whether he is or is not a 'little sh*t', it is not very tactful to say so.

[Catch22Dem]

87. I think you're throwing these at me thinking I'm going to recant because of WHO said it

Nothing could be further from the truth. When I hear Gore or Carter say these things, I absolutely cringe. I love both of these men, but I despise it when they go off on the god business.

No, he wouldn't be on my side in protesting someone thanking Allah. My distaste and distrust of religion extends equally to ALL religions. I view Christianity, Islam, and Branch Davidian equally. They're all corrupt in nature, and corrupt the mind. He'd be protesting because it was NOT Christianity. I wouldn't be protesting, I'd simply disagree and call that person a little shit too.

[onenote]

90. Do you know what "proselytize" means?

To try to convert someone. How exactly does this kid thanking jesus constitute an attempt to convert anyone? If he had thanked his mother and father, would that be offensive to kids who only have one parent?

I think everyone will probably survive this kid's speech.

[TN al]

13. Yes, we all have rights...

...but with those rights come responsibilities. And that kid had a responsibility not to invoke his religious beliefs in a public ceremony where not everyone shares those beliefs. We live in America not Afghanistan but he and most of the parents in attendance would be happy to start their own little christian taliban here. And after they succeeded in that we would have our own sectarian violence in Tennessee to rival that in Iraq. It would come down to the Baptists versus the Church of Christ. But it would all be ok because they would be "killing infidels in the name of God." When religious fanatics achieve power the sectarian violence is always the end result.

[LostinVA]

19. You said it better than I did -- good post!

[hfojvt]

57. you think he is Taliban-like

just because he believes Jesus died for his sins?

Or because he feels free, if not obligated, to say so publicly?

So we are only allowed to talk about beliefs when everybody shares those beliefs? I guess then if the valedictorian was GLBT and expressed appreciation for his/her same sex partner that you'd take the side of the Christians and fundies who would be upset by that? Some sort of responsibility in a speech to not offend the intolerant.

[Dorian Gray]

84. So

you would prefer that people hide their beliefs? I would hope that someone who would want to thank the Dalai Lama would do so, just as someone who would want to thank the Pope or God. I don't understand why it infuriates you so much. It's his personal beliefs, he mentioned them, he thanked Jesus, the ceremony is over, and everyone is still alive and kicking. If he would be a hypocrite and try to ban someone who would thank Allah in graduation ceremony, that's his problem. I don't care. I would uphold that everyone should be able to thank anybody or any religious entity that was important to them and inspired them to work hard enough to become the valedictorian.

[onenote]

91. why did he have a responsibility not to invoke them

It was a personal declaration. It wasn't made in reference to anyone else.

[LostinVA]

17. Again, Government should and does edit speeches given at a PUBLIC institution

If those speeches break the law or spit on the Constitutional rights of others.

Would you feel the same if that young man spoke against the sinfulness of gays? Or the sinfulness of interracial marriages? NO DIFFERENCE, DSC. This isn't a religious issue, it's a rights issue. THis wasn't a private school, this was a publicly-funded school.

[dsc]

21. I don't know what part of the government shouldn't edit is in any way unclear

but if a valedictorian wanted to say gays were evil or blacks inferior or anything else he should get to. That doesn't mean the graduating seniors have to remain silent or seated. But either we have freedom from government censorship of speech or we don't.

[LostinVA]

31. There you go -- I've read everything on here now

Having a gay man accepting allowing hate speech to rationalize something.

Oh boy.

Sorry, DSC, I respect you as poster, but this is going too far.

[dsc]

37. because I know how governments here would likely use that power

and it wouldn't be to ban anti gay speech. I could easily see them banning an anti war speech or a pro gay one. I don't pretend to believe that I am on the popular side of every debate.

[orleans]

53. no no no. this is different. it's a public school and they edit the kids

all the time. the kids have to run their articles by a teacher before they go into print in the school newspaper (in many schools)

and a school in naperville illinois "edited" a girls tshirt that said "be happy. not gay."

it's not the government--it's the local school board policies, and they are there to make sure that hate speech isn't tolerated or permitted.

[dsc]

63. They shouldn't have editted the girl's shirt either

A school newspaper is a little different as the school is the publisher of it. But they have no business editting graduation speeches. Choose the valedictorian using neutral criteria and then let the person speak.

[orleans]

65. are you kidding me? they shouldn't have edited the girl's shirt?

what kind of school do you work at anyway?

kids can't wear shirts with cigarette ads on them
or alcohol
or drugs
or shirts displaying hate speech & intolerance of other people

at least that's how it is in my neck of the woods

[dsc]

66. I favor uniforms

but if a school isn't going to go that route I fail to see any justification for ad hoc speech censorship. In the girl's case the made her change the shirt to a new one which was barely less offensive. What purpose is served by that. I do agree that drug, cigarettes and alcohol shirts should be banned based upon illegal status.

[orleans]

77. well, i'm glad you weren't working in my daughter's school. i would have gone

to the school board, irate as hell, had some teacher permitted a kid to wear that "be happy not gay" shirt in our school.

[dsc]

78. a couple of things

First, it would be an adminstrator's decision, not mine. Teachers send students to the office based on the dress code and the adminstrator makes a decision.

Second, this school district simply made her edit the shirt (changing be happy not gay to be happy be straight).

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/346203,CST-NWS-tshirt18.article

That is hardly a great change. But according to the decision had they not given her the option then the court would have ruled the other way. In all honesty I don't see a principled difference between banning her shirt and banning a shirt extolling the virtue of being gay which I certainly wouldn't want to give the school district the power to do. Free speech for me and not for thee isn't a virtue.

[orleans]

88. the shirt ended up only saying "be happy" and nothing else

it was a school counselor who altered the shirt dispite what the admins said could replace the "not gay". turned out, nothing replaced the "not gay"

(that's why the parents are suing)

the link to the sun times article left something out of the story:

"Linda Zamecnik and Wells agreed Wells could alter the shirt's message to read "Be Happy. Be Straight."
But the suit says the agreement was broken when a school counselor crossed out "NOT GAY" in black marker but nothing replaced it.

The suit says Linda Zamecnik discussed the issue with the principal and superintendent and was told that staff had done nothing wrong."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/308282,CST-NWS-gay22.article

so, that *was* a real change on the shirt. done by a school counselor.

[dsc]

89. The article I read made it fairly clear that no option means no ability to censor

I think they are on best very thin ice here. I could easily see the very same principle being used to ban a pro gay shirt.

[Occulus]

79. Ah, you're a libertarian

that explains it

[dsc]

81. On speech absolutely

I am a firm believer in big government in many areas, speech not at all.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. Do You Have Any Idea How Disgusting Your Sentiment Is? How Intolerant?

You don't even know this kid, yet you can so easily spew such vitriolic hatred? You can do so just because they're a good person and thanked Jesus?

I find your post and the intolerance towards Christians within it to be fucking disgusting.

[MindPilot]

8. Yeah, everyone has the right to say stupid shit

One would expect less stupidity from the valedictorian, but even a good education can't wash away all the dumb.

The problem with crediting mythological deities for one's success, is that it mocks and denigrates the real effort that real people put into creating that success.

Did the students who didn't make the cut blame god for their failure?

Edited because SATAN interfered with my ability to spell correctly.

[dsc]

10. As a teacher I can tell you students blame about anyone and anything

but themselves.

[orleans]

54. you're a teacher? that surprises me considering the other post i just

made to one of your previous comments.

are you teaching high school?

[Buzz Clik]

11. my feelings exactly.

[LostinVA]

14. Government should if it's a public institution

That young man broke the law and disrespected everyone of his classmates who have beliefs different than his. I am sick of the arrogance of some Christians. Tyranny against a minority is immoral and illegal.

[onenote]

92. what law did he break?

[Jed Dilligan]

67. And if I were there and decided to laugh him off the stage...

I suppose you would stand up for my right of free speech as well?

[Dorian Gray]

85. Definitely....

Nobody said that people had to stand there. Stand up and leave, laugh, whatever you want. I still wouldn't want to restrict the speech of the valedictorian, as long as there is no profanity and/or overt hatred in his speech.

[MindPilot]

4. I feel your pain, but the speaker was within his rights.

He was speaking as an individual, not as a representative of the school.

The real question is were there any non-Christians passed over in the selection process for that reason? I'll bet there were.

[Catch22Dem]

7. Definitely within his rights

But left tact and reason at the door when he took the stage. Little prick.

[SayWhatYo]

18. How so?

He is religious and believes in what you and I probably considered fairy tales. I do not see how him saying what he believes is offensive to you or me, or how it makes him a prick. It's not him who acting like a prick.

[Clark2008]

33. Doubtful.

Valedictorians are selected by the grade-point averages.

And, given the fact that a vast majority of Tennesseans are Christian, I would surmise that the odds that most of the student body is Christian, increasing the odds that the person with the higest GPA is also Christian.

Just a roll of odds, really.

[1932]

6. I wonder if the administration approved that speech, or if that was something he threw in at the end

after gauging his audience.

[TN al]

27. I wondered the same thing as I watched it myself...

...on the other hand this is a school district that is being sued for allowing proselytizing in one of its elementary schools and the plaintiffs were allowed to sue anonymously for fear of reprisal from the community.

[China_cat]

39. It would have to have been approved.

Every public school I've ever dealt with insisted on seeing the text of both valedictorian and salutorian speeches...and editing same if they found 'improper' references.

[SayWhatYo]

15. You were offended?

I think you need to get some thicker skin if someone saying Jesus offends you. You're no better than those people get pissed off because some congressman wants to be sworn in with the Quran. Why would you want to be in the same boat with those closed minded fools? I love your use of the word "tyrannize" too.. lol, almost has me thinking this is a joke... nahhh, no one would ever do that, right?

Seriously though, stop putting me in a position in which I'm defending the religious.

[live love laugh]

16. I agree. It's one thing to TEACH religion in schools, it's another to mention it.

Some people here are overly sensitive about religious issues and it is actually disrespectful of those who have the freedom to express their religious beliefs.

[LostinVA]

20. Separation of Church and State extends to graduation ceremonies, moments of silence, etc.

The kid broke the law and spat on other people's rights. That is NOT being "overly sensitive."


On edit: being for Separation of Church and State doesn't make me anti-religious or anti-Christian, so please hold those comments. I'm sick of that meme.

[dsc]

22. No he didn't

All of the cases having to do with graduation had to do with adult prayers or student prayers that were not part of valedictorian speeches. As long as the government chooses the valedictorian without using religion I don't see any break here.

[LostinVA]

28. Of course he did

We will never, ever agree on this, because I think ANY ceremony involving a public institution should be 100% secular, because someone's religious rights will be stepped on.

[dsc]

30. Under your system his religious rights would be

He could say anything else he wanted but if he dare thank God then he gets censored. How isn't that a violation of his rights?

[tabasco]

32. It doesn't matter if you agree or not.

What you believe is not the law.

[LostinVA]

34. oooo -- you got me so good

Of course they're breaking the law -- it's just that no one has taken a school district to court for a graduation speech yet. Of course, with the USSC we have now, it would be hunky dory with them.

It has nothing to do with my belief, it has to do with the Constitution.

[Clark2008]

36. They are NOT breaking the law in this case.

Prayer is blocked from graduation ceremonies, but the mere mention of one's faith is NOT.

[tabasco]

29. Get a grip. He didn't break any law.

Individuals are allowed to profess their beliefs in public.

Part of being an American is respecting other peoples' religious beliefs, IMO.

You are being intolerant just like the fundies.

[Clark2008]

35. No it does not.

Apparently, you've never heard of Baccalaureate - a religious part of the graduation ceremony. One isn't required to participate in either the Baccalaureate or the graduation ceremony, exempting either of them from church v. state regulations.

[dsc]

38. that isn't true

I think on this issue, that of valedictorian speeches, you are right and the other poster is wrong. But there are plenty of church state regulation of graduation ceremonies. No adult prayers, no student voted prayers to name two.

[Clark2008]

43. Yeah - I reference that above (or clarified it).

Prayers are blocked, but professing one's faith is not.

Baccalaureate ceremonies are not blocked, as well, and aren't considered mandatory.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

49. This Declaration Of Yours Is Wrong Past The Point Of Ludicrousness.

Breaking the law for thanking Jesus? Are you for real? :rofl:

Broke the law and spat on people's rights. Oh my god how melodramatic and wrong. I'm in absolute awe that someone would actually believe such malarkey.

[murloc]

60. What law did he break

"The kid broke the law"

Im just curious what Federal or State law you actually think he broke. I would also be curious what the penality is.

[doggyboy]

76. A citizen can not break the Establishment Clause

The seperation of church and state is a restriction placed on The State (ie govt) Only the govt can break it. A citizen can not break it because a citizen does not have the power to establish a state religion.

[Clark2008]

24. Oh, for Pete's sake.

Don't we have much more important things to get bent out of shape about. He thanked something that is near and dear to his heart. Big deal.

I'm in Tennessee, too. I wouldn't care if he thanked God, Allah, Yaweh, Miss Marple, the Kool-Aid Man or whomever. It's his speech.

[goddess40]

25. I don't like it either but....

as long as he said "my sins" and not our I can live with it.

[Vexatious Ape]

40. I don't think his silly comment was anything to get

offended about. I'd just roll my eyes and shake my head like I do whenever some dumb rapper wins a Grammy and thanks Jesus.

[LWolf]

41. The greater the christian majority

in the community, the more common things like this are.

One of my students asked me on Friday if I was a christian. I declined to state. She asked why; "other teachers tell us." I replied that I declined to state my religious and political affiliations because a teacher is an authority figure in position to influence the thinking of students. While I don't mind sharing, I decline out of respect for students and their families.

She accepted this, but didn't really understand. The majority rarely does.

[Jamastiene]

46. I wish there were more like you.

I like your sense of tact. :thumbsup:

[Hekate]

50. Good for you.My first prof of comparative religion told us she hoped to teach so well that we...

...would never be able to discern her own religion -- and that it was not our business to know what it was in any case. She also taught philosophy -- same thing. The subject matter was what was important. She was a wonderful teacher, too.

Hekate

[doggyboy]

42. Not only "offended" but "personally offended"?

Do you think he thanked god in order to tic you off specifically?

[Tsiyu]

44. Just be thankful

you weren't at my son's graduation in Georgia. There was a display of bombastic jingoism spewing from the podium that was shameful and disgraceful considering the prevailing American sentiment against our current military endeavors.

The first speaker, the class VP, gave a creepy, way-way-too-loud first person account of what it meant (in her worldview) to "be" the American Flag. Her speech was titled,The Pledge of Allegiance which tells it all. She made the flag sound like some bloodthirsty, cruel cult leader.

Then we had the 10 students (out of a class of 350+) who've enlisted in the military paraded up front by a rigid ROTC teacher and lauded for their sacrifice followed by a list of Neocon talking points justifying the current "war on terror." It was kind of scary. At first the crowd supported the kids; by the end of the uniformed dude's diatribe, only about 25-30% of the huge stadium was clapping. Most sat silently, from what I could see, and looked both saddened by and disgusted with the display.

I'll take your Jesus over that kind of exploitation of an event. Not to underestimate your own disgust in any way.

[fujiyama]

80. Holy shit!

That's creepy!

What's with graduation speeches bringing up politics and religion? Are those topics really necessary in a HIGH SCHOOL graduation ceremony? It also shows a lack of creativity. "Thank you Jesus for dying for my sins". No it doesn't break the law, but it just makes for one REALLY crappy graduation speech...

[nick303]

45. I'm Jewish

I wouldn't really have any problem with someone saying something like that though. How does it affect me?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. Oh For Cryin Out Loud Give Me A Break.

He thanked Jesus. How the fuck does that hurt you? Did he say you should thank him too, and you're a bad person if you don't?

C'mon now. This is ridiculous. I don't care what godddamn faith you are or aren't or anybody else is or isn't. If someone else has deep faith then more power to em. If they want to thank their God for good things then more power to em. This fake goddamn outrage at the person's expression of their faith is just ridiculous. It's every bit as melodramatic and disgusting to me as when the fundamentalists object overdramtically to their shit.

[cgrindley]

61. It's an insult to the entire education system

it's got to stop. It's a retarded practice. Faith runs absolutely counter to every single thing that education stands for.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. No, No, It Isn't.

I find the over the top objections to be "retarded", but that's about it.

[Dorian Gray]

86. You find the word Jesus

in a commencement speech insulting. I find the use of the word "retarded" as a pejorative insulting. C'est la vie and all that jazz. I DON'T want to ban the word or censor you for using it, though.

[onenote]

93. so no educated person can be a person of faith?

Wow. Just wow.

[XOKCowboy]

51. I guess I grew a thick skin growing up in Oklahoma..

the Buckle of the Bible Belt. Heck you'd go to a restaurant and the waitress would write "God Loves You" and her name and a smily face on your check. Lots of so called Christians proselytized every where ya went.

Mostly we ignored them but if we were really bored we'd take one or two on and hit them up with contradictions in the Bible. Worked every time. It'd either blow their mind or they'd leave in a huff. :)

Don't sweat it. It's the kids First Amendment right to say what he wants in his Valedictory speech. As long as you son knows better then just shrug it off.

[Erika]

52. Fundies sicken me

The only truly "good" Christians I have known left it to Christ to touch people with his message.

These people are on some sort of a religious high much like the support for a sports team.

[orleans]

55. reading all these posts telling you to basically get over it. humph.

it would have pissed me off too.

[Lord Helmet]

58. you should have yelled "Hail Satan" just for equal time

[murloc]

59. How terrible

I wish you a speedy recovery from your ordeal.

With any luck the perpetrator will be caught and brought to justice.

[lynne]

64. He earned the right to thank those who are important to him -

- and you quoted him as saying "died on the cross for my sins". He didn't say YOUR sins or EVERYONES sins. He wasn't preaching, he was thanking those people who were important to him and him alone.

Maybe we should all be more concerned about retaining the right to thank those who are important to us rather than be concerned that a few people may be offended by mere words that have no power over them.

[immoderate]

69. He's the valedictorian. He earned his right to say what he wants.

And I guess he's also now without sin. :shrug:

The saddest part is not what he said, but that he's the best they have to offer. :eyes:

--IMM

[Arugula Latte]

71. Ugh. I feel for you TN al. I would have been pissed off, too.

I'm sick of religious people trying to impose their silly beliefs on everyone. I find it sad and pathetic that so many people actually believe that a guy 2,000 years ago was the only magical person who ever lived on Earth and that he came back to life to "save" people. It's ridiculous that that is considered a mainstream, rational belief. Yet, in the eyes of society and a good chunk of DU, I'm being the impolite one if I point that out.

I'm sure I'll be flamed, and I won't respond, because I'm tired of this stuff, but I'm with you.

[DainBramaged]

73. I wonder how long it will be before we find out the valDICKtorian

has kiddie porn on his computer?

[Cobalt Violet]

74. He sounds like a lunatic.

Just my opinion.

[PaDem]

75. Was that all he said?

That's all it took for people to feel tyrannized? That quote constitutes a sermon? Rather innocuous I'd say.

[fujiyama]

82. I guess I'd be less offended than just annoyed

at having to sit through a crappy graduation speech. Reminds me of those rappers thanking God after winning a Grammy.

Hmmmm, shows that getting good grades doesn't really teach much in the way of critical thinking skills, tact, or good taste.

[Dorian Gray]

83. It's what he believes.

I don't think that it constitutes as tyranny, nor do I think that a student should be banned from thanking Jesus (or Buddha or Mohammed or Allistair Crowley or L Ron Freaking Hubbard) if they want to in their commencement speeches.

Grumbling about it is fine, but trying to have the speech banned would make me uncomfortable. And angry.

Your son is fortunate, however, in that he graduates quite early from high school. All the better to appreciate the summer.

[Breeze54]

94. CONGRATULATIONS to the Graduate!!!!!!

My youngest graduates Sunday!! :woohoo:

[lpbk2713]

95. I wonder if this Valedictorian saw 60 Minutes on Sunday?

It would have been an eye opener for him no doubt. A Guard unit was called up from Iowa in 2005. 60 Minutes followed them for over a year. They were ready to come home when AWOL Smirky-Boy extended them at the last minute for at least another three months. There's no guarantee they won't be extended again at the eleventh hour. These guys from the Heartland went off prepared to do what was asked of them. But from what was shown on the 60 Minutes interviews after being jerked around by the BushCo Regime so much and so often they don't seem to be such red-blooded, God-fearing patriots any more. Putting the barbarity of war aside it's a damn shame that this criminal BushCo Regime would do what they do to their own people with impunity.