You that feel let down by the Democrats

[Kansas Wyatt]

Think about what would happen to already sky rocketing gas prices if the U.S. pulled out of Iraq, as it relates to the oil market. Also consider the fact that the U.S. would also lose a very large guaranteed supply of oil. No, I am not saying it was right, but everyone knows that we went to Iraq for oil. Big Oil is getting filthy rich over it, but it can get a Hell of a lot worse for us if the U.S. abandoned it and rivals/enemies to the U.S. moved in on it.

Think about if it is possible that the Democrats are looking down the road and setting up how things will play out to their favor in the future, which could allow them to get everything the American people have been demanding. They don't have the votes to completely shut BushCo. down now, but they would if BushCo. screwed up the very last chance. Remember, you have just witnessed what happens when the government has no plan and acts hastily without any thought over the last six years.

[madokie]

1. I'll walk to the store to get my groceries if need be to bring our folks home

from Iraq. For me no price is too big too pay

[Rydz777]

28. I agree completely. I'll walk; it'll do me good. Whatever it

takes to bring our troops home alive and with their limbs attached.

On the general matter of oil. I don't think we get much of our oil from Iraq - it goes to places like Europe and Japan. We get ours from Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, and Saudi Arabia. Of course, oil is fungible and if you took all Iraqi oil out of the world market, it would raise prices but, in any case, we are going to have to adjust to the fact of lower supplies of oil in the long run.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

2. Hey! Here's an idea!

Lets take any future monies to be spent on this
illegal and immoral war and occupation and spend it
on R&D of green alternatives!

Oh! that can't possibly happen yet tho' as the big oil companies
don't own all the intellectual properties yet on
all the new green ideas out there.

[Kansas Wyatt]

4. That is a better idea, but

pResident Shit for Brains already blew the wad on Iraq, and the Democrats are left with fixing the problem and it's after effects.

[leftofthedial]

3. gas prices have nothing to do with Iraqi oil

there is in effect zero Iraqi oil on the market today

[Kansas Wyatt]

6. At the very least...

The U.S. leaving Iraq would be the reason for a sharp rise on the market, because it will destablilize even more than now. Remember the U.S. is still protecting the oil fields, since that was the main reason for being there.

Big Oil will show us the blow back for cutting them off.

I'm not saying it's right, but that is what we are faced with.

[leftofthedial]

9. it doesn't matter what happens

the oil bidniz will use anything that happens--leaving Iraq, staying in Iraq, price of oil going up, price of oil going down...it doesn't matter at all. Whatever happens, they'll raise prices. Gasoline prices are directly a result of artificially constrained supply and fundamentally a function of gouging.

[INdemo]

24. And I might add.........

Congress can't do a damn thing about it..They pass legislation against price fixing and the oil companies laugh at them..Congress threatens the oil industry with a windfall profit tax and again the oil companies laugh.The oil industry is powerful and what strengthens that power is they have the blessings of this President and VP.
They have us by the balls and we can't do a damn thing about it
until Jan 2009 when we have a Democratic President.
And its not just gas..Groceries bills,and energy bills,etc,etc. are climbing rapidly..(Example)Just got our electric bill and had a fuel adjustment cost added to it,which amounted to about 8%..
When the oil companies run out of excuses for high gas prices this President gives them one..tensions in Iran..next week we might be back to the pipeline or some little ol' lady might spill a gallon of lawnmower gas or something like that.....

[liberal renegade]

19. The main reason for being there was

WMD, if my memory serves me correctly.....

[sam sarrha]

13. that is why the Saudi's twisted * arm to invade, to remove Iraqi oil and raise Saudi profits,

[HereSince1628]

5. What makes you think the US would lose a guaranteed source?

With pipelines worth of oil going missing to the Iraq black market every month it's hard to imagine we are currently benefitting from such a thing.

[Kansas Wyatt]

8. Think about the stock market and the price of oil

On the day the U.S. announced it was withdrawing Iraq completely. You can be sure that panic and a buying spree would follow to gobble up the oil that was on the market. Big Oil would also make sure that the sharp rise in prices would be felt immediately at the pump, because they didn't get their way anymore and to get even with the American people.

No, it's not right, but that is what we are faced with.

[HereSince1628]

14. But about the guarantee? Do you have something other than a fear-based speculation?

I haven't read anything about the US having a gaurantee. I'll admit it seems our presence is an attempt to secure for ourselves via US oil companies access to Iraqi oil thru our military presence. But that's not a quarantee.

It also seems in doubt whether the disposition of oil matters. Whether the US or China or India buys it doesn't matter, once oil is pumped by anyone it will influence international prices of oil
Once it's pumped its availability impacts the balance of supply and demand.

Current gasoline prices have almost nothing to do with Iraqi oil on the market. Rather it's about manipulation of refining capacity and using environmental laws requiring various summer vs. winter blends for cover.

[Kansas Wyatt]

17. Sure, Big Oil isn't going to manipulate the market

Because the American people said piss on them and their war for oil.

[whosinpower]

7. They backed down because

Even if they DID have the votes to defund the war - that would not mean that George would bring the troops home. He would not. He would leave them there stranded to bleed and die and then blame the democrats for the whole thing.....but he will never bring the troops home. and he sure as hell won't let a democratic congress tell him how it is going to be.

And staying in Iraq to keep oil prices down is the most selfish immoral thing you could ever think of.....for every gallon of gas you pump just think of those young people over there dying just so you can have cheap gas.....that is abhorrent of the highest order. What is the price of your son?......about $3.50/gallon. How awful.

[Kansas Wyatt]

12. I didn't say the policy and reasons were right or just

My point was to get people to look at this from a position that the Democrats do not have the freedom to change the present policy and make everything right immediately. They are stuck with cleaning up the BushCo & Republicans, Inc. mess, while trying to avoid further hardship on the decimated middle class.

I personally feel that we should have been pouring money into an alternative to oil for the last 40 years, instead of the military industrial complex, Big Oil, and the Middle East.

[rucky]

10. We have to be willing to sacrifice,

and make some fundamental lifestyle changes.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sam sarrha]

15. Amen Brother Toots...!! say Amen!!

[Kansas Wyatt]

16. What the FUCK do you do about what has already been set in motion?

I didn't make the fucking policy! I don't support the fucking policy! Do you fucking understand that? You understand damn good and well exactly what happens to politicians who try to take away from the 'Powers That Be.'

Fuck you then and all of you who think your Democrats didn't cater to your needs and wants, like they had a blank check and the power to do so!

[Toots]

25. Please name the number of the Bill requesting billions for Alternative Energy

Congress and all those within have the Power to present Bills for Consideration. They don't even have to be in the Majority to submit such bills. In the last six years maybe you could list all the Bills submitted by "Democrats" to reserve money for Alternative Energy Research and Developement..Maybe even a Bill to raise Cafe Standards (Milage requirements)???? Or even raising the price of oil and oil products to create reductions in usage. Just one Bill???? Anything.....Oh that's right never mind "The votes aren't there"

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kansas Wyatt]

31. Listen carefully

I do not control what the Democrats in Congress do, nor do I control this nation's policy! However, you can stop your whining at any time and go to Congress yourself to get done what you blaming the Democrats for failing to do. So go get it done now, since it is all so simple!

No, shut up and go to Congress yourself to get it done. Yes, you can get elected to do just that since you are so smart and know so much. So stop whining to me, and just go do it! No, shut up and put up now! What? It doesn't work that way? Then leave me alone!

[Kansas Wyatt]

32. You could always...

Go work for one of the Democrats in Congress to show them exactly how simple and easy it is to get what you want. That would be much quicker for you to get your way. Go on, no need to report back to me, I'll read about all the policy changes you have made in the news.

[Joe Fields]

18. I don't allow myself to think in those terms.

Like the man said,"I'll walk to the grocery store to get my food, if it'll help bring those boys home.

[tabasco]

20. LMAO. We invaded to SIT on the oil and drive prices UP.

Thanks for playing.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

21. Bullshit

It's that simple.

And it's digusting that any Democrat would even think that kind of bullshit.

Stop making what the dems in congress did even worse. These are the kinds of spinning we should hear from rethugs.

We shouldn't lower ourselves to spin this bullshit. It only gets the bullshit all over us.

[INdemo]

22. I dont disagree with you completely but I dont believe we have seen one

drop of Iraqi oil imported to the U S yet..but no doubt this is/was a war for oil.
With all the "bashing the Democrats" for not including a timetable in the funding bill, I believe the corporate media accomplished its goal of making this war the responsibility of the Democrats now and has given the Republicans talking points(" Has this has hurt the Democrats politically?) to try and regain their Majority..Its one of those " I told ya so" coming from the Rove play book..

[Kansas Wyatt]

23. OKAY I STAND CORRECTED FOR ALL OF YOU!

From now on I will take the Freeper approach to things and keep everything simple, and stay away from asking people to think about the complexities of an issue. I will also stop thinking about what 'Powers That Be' would do if 'We The People' got an uncertain Congress (Do they really have the votes needed to over-ride?) to impose their will. I accept the fact that our government has been turned into a Corporate Government that does not represent the people, and ALL Democrats are just as evil as all Republicans. Thank you all for enlightening me so much and getting me to conclude that there is no reason for us to be there at all, and we need to stop driving, which will only have minor effects here at home. I actually thought there was NO reason for us to go in there all along anyway, nor have I ever said that the present policy was right. I CLEARLY UNDERSTAND ALL OF YOU THAT VOTING DEMOCRATIC IS A WASTE OF TIME, BECAUSE THEY ARE WAR MONGERS TOO.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

26. If you're going to back down, back down from the beginning, instead of making a spectacle

out of a withdrawal requirement and veto, and THEN backing down, making yourself look weak, feckless, foolish.

What is gained by doing things this way?

[Kansas Wyatt]

30. I am only backing down from

Voting for the Democratic Party, since that is what the Democratic Underground members want.

[Individualist]

27. Damn the DLC!

[Madspirit]

33. If It Meant

If it meant we could stop sending our kids off to KILL and DIE, I would walk, take a bus, get an electric bike, whatever...

Killing people and being killed...over OIL? That's just not right.
Lee

[Pyrzqxgl]

34. The 1st political slogan I remember was Truman's "BEAT HIGH PRICES" in 1948

Isn't it time to bring back THE OFFICE OF PRICE STABILIZATION to get some of those outrageous gas prices down?
It worked for Truman and the country then.

[saras]

35. Maybe I should be a Green, not a Democrat - or live in the boonies

I personally dealt with the oil issue back in the seventies, when it was first obvious we were going this way. I successfully removed most of it from my life - heat, energy use, transportation, shipping of goods. Unfortunately, in the last decade or so, all the social institutions that helped me do so have been dismantled, mostly by business and its supporters, whether Democrat or Republican. I CAN'T buy local any more, as local production has been dismantled, sold, or outlawed. I CAN'T live in my old efficient housing, as it has been zoned out of existence.

It's kind of useless to say "I told you so", but we blew thirty years in which we could have adapted the country and the economy to do without the oil. Now we're going to do without it anyways, and suffer for it. Oh, well.

May as well do it voluntarily.

I suppose mentioning that we did a huge amount to CREATE enemies/rivals doesn't help much at this time either.

The Democrats need to be planning for a future where ENERGY ISN'T CHEAP. And they need to be ENACTING those plans.

We're going to have to rebuild the industry we abandoned, as we won't be able to afford the goods, nor will anyone be able to afford the shipping. And we're going to have to rethink what kind of goods make a sustainable society. Are the Democrats thinking about how to end our culture of disposable consumer goods?

We're going to have to get corporations under control somehow. I don't hear the Democrats doing much in that direction. You could instantly vanish the neocons, and any number of multinationals would happily step up to play the same role, with perhaps less stupidity, but more thoroughness. When the oil company executives can no longer live or travel safely in the USA, they might behave better. If the same conditions apply to most of the civilized world, we may get some actual power over them.

We're going to have to recreate a functional science of psychology, as it's obvious that the people we have currently aren't capable of building nor living in a sustainable society.

We're going to have to dismantle this stupid concept of "intellectual property" that prevents us from using our collective knowledge for our collective benefit. The Democrats have been on the wrong side of this issue for WAY too long.

Worrying about where' we're going to get a couple of years worth of oil is pretty low on the priority list. Our problems have a lot more to do with getting our current population to behave sensibly, than with figuring out what "sensibly" means.

[Jack Rabbit]

36. Welcome to DU

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Lives are far more important to me than the price of gas

I would in fact be honored to be forced to cut back on my driving if that meant lives were being saved in Iraq.

I want our troops home, regardless of how much that costs me in gas.

[HardRocker05]

38. iraq's oil production is BELOW pre-war levels, and if we spent the money that we are spendinng

on the war on finding alternative energy sources, we would be far less dependent on oil, and be a lot more respected in the world. sheesh.

[SergeyDovlatov]

39. Lower price of oil is not worth the lives of people killed!

It is a horrible justification for keeping our troops there.

[Jack Rabbit]

40. That is about the lamest excuse I've seen for the Democrats voting a blank check

All of the bad things you say will happen if Bush pulls out of Iraq will happen if he doesn't. They will happen whether he does or he doesn't. They will happen whether his successor pulls out of Iraq or if he doesn't.

The Iraq parliament can pass the imperialist hydrocarbon bill that the Bushies are forcind on them, but it won't matter. The Iraqi government is too weak to enforce it. The next government, that is, whoever wins the civil war, will renounce the law (assuming it's passed). What are we going to do to prevent that? Keep troops in Iraq forever? That is beginning to sound like what it was going to take to keep South Vietnam afloat.

To say the Bushies had no plan is not exactly accurate. They had a plan. IT was based on the false assumptions and wishful thinking of neoconservative know-it-alls who were sure that Iraqi society would remain unified after the fall of Saddam and that the Iraqi people would be so happy to see his back that they would allow the "liberators" to rob them blind of their natural resources.

Gee, it didn't happen thst way. What a surprise.

Iraq was never really a unified nation. What was holding it together was Saddam's brutality. I don't blame Bush for the civil war; I blame him for dismissing any possibility of one. Had Saddam died of natural causes in 2003 and had Bush and his den of liars and thieves never considered invading Iraq, there would have been a civil war with the Shias, who became a numerical majority during Saddam's reign of terror, rising to take power and the Sunni Arabs, who benefited disproportionately from Saddam's internal policies, fighting to keep what they had. All you need to remember is how, after the 1991 war, when President Bush was rattling his sword urging someone, any one, in Iraq to overthrow Saddam, the Shias rose up thinking the moment was at hand, but Bush the Preppy sheathed his sword and left them to be slaughtered by Saddam.

You have one thing right, Wyatt. The war and occupation are about oil. Another thing Bush the Preppy once said is that the American way of life is non-negotiable. He was wrong. If it is necessary to go to war to secure the resources that run the engine to keep that way of life current, then the American way of life is very much negotiable.

It is negotiable because there are alternative to petroleum that can be developed and should have been developed starting thirty years ago. Conservation is more than a private moral virtue, as Vice President Halliburton once dismissed it; it is one of the key stones in the bridge that will get us from the fossil fuel present to the renewable resource future. How much in profits Exxon, Chevron and Shell lose and how fast is not my concern.

[LaPera]

41. What in the fuck are you talking about?

[Kansas Wyatt]

42. See post #23