So, English is about to become codified as the official language

[Cerridwen]

of the U.S.

States that English is the national language of the United States. Requires the government to preserve and enhance the role of English as the national language of the United States.

link to the immigration reform bill (S.1348) in the Senate sponsored by: Harry Reid, and his 4 co-sponsors

Sen Kennedy, Edward M. - 5/9/2007
Sen Leahy, Patrick J. - 5/9/2007
Sen Menendez, Robert - 5/9/2007
Sen Salazar, Ken - 5/9/2007

[mmonk]

1. More pandering to the inspired hate of immigrants and

others that the government serves up.

[Cerridwen]

9. Mostly at our southern border - interesting that.

A lot of the bill speaks specifically to our southern border. But, I'm sure it's nothing against brown people at all. Nope. Not at all. /sarcasm

[NightWatcher]

2. they've hidden all kinds of shit in this bill

under the cover of "kick out the brown people" they are sticking it to everyone.

Look at #3 "biometric entry-exit system" who are they trying to keep "in" the country?

Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 - Sets forth border security and enforcement provisions, including provisions respecting: (3) border security initiatives, including biometric data enhancements and a biometric entry-exit system, document integrity, and mandatory detention of aliens apprehended at or between ports of entry;

[Cerridwen]

4. Did you see the national database they're cooking up?

And fingerprinting as part of the visa application process?

Now, I'm looking to see if I can find where the National Guard will be deputized to patrol the borders - posse comatatus, anyone?

edit for an extra word

[NightWatcher]

15. here's the full text of the bill

the national guard will be used to patrol the border per sec. 113
Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007'

[Cerridwen]

20. Per section 133 - it's only a "temporary" use of the NG

SEC. 133. TEMPORARY NATIONAL GUARD SUPPORT FOR SECURING THE SOUTHERN LAND BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES.

(a) Authority To Provide Assistance-

(1) IN GENERAL- With the approval of the Secretary of Defense, the Governor of a State may order any units or personnel of the National Guard of such State to perform annual training duty under section 502(a) of title 32, United States Code, to carry out in any State along the southern land border of the United States the activities authorized in subsection (b), for the purpose of securing such border. Such duty shall not exceed 21 days in any year.

(2) SUPPORT- With the approval of the Secretary of Defense, the Governor of a State may order any units or personnel of the National Guard of such State to perform duty under section 502(f) of title 32, United States Code, to provide command, control, and continuity of support for units or personnel performing annual training duty under paragraph (1).

(b) Authorized Activities- The activities authorized by this subsection are any of the following:

(1) Ground reconnaissance activities;

(2) Airborne reconnaissance activities;

(3) Logistical support;

(4) Provision of translation services and training;

(5) Administrative support services;

(6) Technical training services;

(7) Emergency medical assistance and services;

(8) Communications services;

(9) Rescue of aliens in peril;

(10) Construction of roadways, patrol roads, fences, barriers, and other facilities to secure the southern land border of the United States; and

(11) Ground and air transportation.

(c) Cooperative Agreements- Units and personnel of the National Guard of a State may perform activities in another State under subsection (a) only pursuant to the terms of an emergency management assistance compact or other cooperative arrangement entered into between Governors of such States for purposes of this section, and only with the approval of the Secretary of Defense.

(d) Coordination of Assistance- The Secretary of Homeland Security shall, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense and the Governors of the States concerned, coordinate the performance of activities under this section by units and personnel of the National Guard.

(e) Annual Training- Annual training duty performed by members of the National Guard under subsection (a) shall be appropriate for the units and individual members concerned, taking into account the types of units and military occupational specialties of individual members performing such duty.

(f) Definitions- In this section:

(1) The term `Governor of a State' means, in the case of the District of Columbia, the Commanding General of the National Guard of the District of Columbia.

(2) The term `State' means each of the several States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(3) The term `State along the southern border of the United States' means each of the following:

(A) The State of Arizona.

(B) The State of California.

(C) The State of New Mexico.

(D) The State of Texas.

(g) Duration of Authority- The authority of this section shall expire on January 1, 2009.

(h) Prohibition on Direct Participation in Law Enforcement- Activities carried out under the authority of this section shall not include the direct participation of a member of the National Guard in a search, seizure, arrest, or similar activity.

Temporary is a relative word when used in government.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I thought fingerprinting was already part of the visa application process.

AFAIK foreigners, even if they're just coming here on vacation, are fingerprinted already at the port of entry.

[Cerridwen]

32. The way I read the bill, it looked as though fingerprinting

is something to be implemented with regards to travel documents (passports) and which includes U.S. citizens who travel between the U.S., Mexico and Canada. Perhaps I read it wrong.

If I did, sorry.

There's enough in the rest of the bill to make my teeth itch without adding concern where there shouldn't be any.

[jody]

3. IMO english the official language of govt. just as the U.S. $ is the official language of finance.

[Cerridwen]

6. I think the $ is taking a beating in its "official" role in finance

Some countries are using "petro-dollars" and others are looking at the Euro.

But, I get your point.

I wonder if Jefferson is spinning in his grave at all this English only crap? He advocated for 4 or 5 languages being taught in schools; apparently, he thought language skills helped create a better person. Eh, go figure.

[jody]

10. Understand but my statement was intended strictly for the U.S., not the world. n/t

[Cerridwen]

17. Gottcha. n/t

[WillParkinson]

5. Awesome!

When is Bush going to learn the official language then?

[Cerridwen]

8. LOL

About the same time he becomes a real cowboy, I suspect.

[Raven]

7. What should the official language of the US be, if not English,

what language? Should there be no official language? Is there a difference between an "official" language and a "national" language?

[Cerridwen]

13. I believe some of the Founders thought it should be German.

Or maybe it was just some group of nutballs in the early Colonial period. Either way, since there are so many people who are trying to take us back into the "good old days"; maybe we should start there.

Here's a question or so; if English is codified as the official language rather than accepted as the national language through tradition, to what does it apply? Is it retroactive? Are all those place names based on Spanish words or Indian words or French words now "illegal" because they're not English? What else is now "illegal" in our correspondence, in what's written or spoken in the media? Is using the term faux pas now an illegal act? How will this code/law be enforced? Are product names subject to government review to insure their English purity? What about English words based on Latin?

Would it be illegal to speak any language other than English while in public?

By making English legal, do other languages become through default, illegal?

[NoPasaran]

27. The German urban legend

I knew this link would come in handy one day.

The events whose misinterpretation gave rise to the legend of the German vote occurred in 1795, though the date is frequently changed to the more patriotically crucial year of 1776. As is characteristic of such stories, what actually occurred is not entirely clear. What is clear is that Congress never considered replacing English with any other language or giving any other tongue equal status with English. In the 18th century there were rumors that a few Brit-bashing superpatriots campaigned to have the new nation drop English in favor of Hebrew, French, or Greek, considered in the late 18th century to be the languages of God, rationality, and democracy, respectively. But the desire to found a New Eden rather than a New Babel assured that the United States would be united both legally and socially under a single language, and that language would be English. Noah Webster championed a dialect-free Federal English based on his spelling book. John Adams rightly predicted that English would become the next world language. And Roger Sherman of Connecticut is reported to have urged Americans to retain English and make the British speak Greek. (See Baron, 1982.) Despite the solid position of English both initially and throughout American history, the legend of the German vote persists.

The German Vote
On January 13, 1795, Congress considered a proposal, not to give German any official status, but merely to print the federal laws in German as well as English. During the debate, a motion to adjourn failed by one vote. The final vote rejecting the translation of federal laws, which took place one month later, is not recorded.

The translation proposal itself originated as a petition to Congress on March 20, 1794, from a group of Germans living in Augusta, Virginia. A House committee responding to that petition recommended publishing sets of the federal statutes in English and distributing them to the states, together with the publication of three thousand sets of laws in German, "for the accommodation of such German citizens of the United States, as do not understand the English language." (American State Papers ser. 10, v. 1:114). According to the succinct report in the Aurora Gazette, "A great variety of plans were proposed, but none that seemed to meet the general sense of the House." (22 January, 1795, p. 3).

A vote to adjourn and sit again on the recommendation failed, 42 to 41, but there is no reason to believe from this close vote that more than token support existed for publishing the laws in German. The vote to adjourn seems to have been interpreted by the House as a vote of no confidence both in the committee's recommendation to translate the laws and in its recommendation on the distribution of the sets of laws once they were published in English. While there is no record of debate on the translation provision that day, if sentiment on the issue in Congress was anything like sentiment in Pennsylvania, translation was probably opposed by a substantial majority of the representatives.

[Cerridwen]

29. Ah, so it was a small group asking for "special" treatment.

I didn't have time to google it - thanks.

[WinkyDink]

36. And which "Founders" would they be? Francophile Franklin? Jefferson?

And let's not be disingenuous, trying to conflate etymology and linguistic evolution with the PRACTICALITY of an "Official" language AS IT CURRENTLY IS.

I.e., if "caveat emptor" is part of our vernacular, it is de facto "English". But ENTIRE DOCUMENTS in the language of the Caesars? Duh, no.

[Cerridwen]

40. Hardly disingenuous to ask questions about the practical application

of a law and how it relates to the "law of unintended consequences". How would it be enforced? Would it be enforced? How? What? When? Why? Against or for, whom?

The answer to your other question about the "Founders" is in a reply to my post. I had a vague recollection of a movement to codify German as an official language - the reply to my post gave the specifics of and instance which contributed to my mis-understanding.

[Posteritatis]

24. Latin, dammit!

(Or, seriously, there should be none.)

[northzax]

52. laws already must be written in English

and all government documents must be available in English. Beyond that, there is no need for an 'offical language' it creates more headaches than it prevents. among other things, who defines 'English'? France has an 'official language' and defines what words or phrases are acceptable in "official French' should the US do the same?

[demnan]

11. It's too late for that

Everywhere you go where I live, the signs are in Spanish and English. I see more Spanish here than I saw French when I visited Canada a week ago.

Spanish is the unofficial and universal second language in this country. You can read Spanish everywhere from your ATM to Lowes to your local supermarket shelf. Go sign up to vote and you can read about the issues at the Democratic primary in Spanish. You can see it on employment notices. Where are these people living who are passing these laws? Do they live in a vacuum somewhere? Do their Hispanic maids do all their shopping for them?

This isn't an issue you can legislate, it's already here. Industries and local governments have to serve the people who are already here, and who aren't going anywhere. This isn't a political issue, it's a sense of reality issue.

[CrispyQ]

26. Your final paragraph is spot on. --nt

[Cerridwen]

28. But, I am curious.

Let's say this makes it into law; does that mean that industries and local governments will be in violation of the law if they print any materials with Spanish on them? Are ATM manufacturers now forbidden by law to include Spanish on their machines? Do Spanish language channels become illegal?

It could have some rather, interesting, repercussions.

[HereSince1628]

12. If they'd further stipulate a 5th grade reading level is the official standard

of English proficiency we might believe George W. Bush is capable of reading more than "My Pet Goat."

Interesting that the DCcrowd is all in favor of globalilzation and calls anyone trying to limit the role of US military "isolationist," but they take formal steps to limit American's need to speak more than one of the dialects of Amerikan. I find this just _SO_ French!

[Cerridwen]

16. Yeah, they want us "global" so long as we can't communicate

with others across the globe. Interesting point.

I thought of the French, too, when I read the bill. So, do we start practicing "Freedom" English?

[Obamarama]

14. Now, if the Boy King could just speechify in English, we'd be all set...

Proper English would be a much welcomed departure from Bushonics.

[Saturday]

18. Language is what unites us as a society.

You can bash me for being a racist (because I know I'm not) but you alienate me when you diss MY language which is English. Not having an official language separates us just as I feel separated from you when you speak Spanish (or any other language) that I do not understand. You assimilate into American society if you speak the English language. As immigrants, years ago, that is the first thing they wanted to do to be an American, now it is the last thing because of THEIR right. What about my right AS A CITIZEN to be able to hear the announcements in my local Sears store in a language I understand and not have them catering to ILLEGAL immigrants?

[Cerridwen]

23. And what divides us as humans.

"If you truly want to know another culture, learn their language." I'm not sure who said that but they make a good point. You can learn a lot about a people if you know their language. How many words do they have for snow? How many for war? How many for love, or peace? How many words do they have for the various stages of inebriation?

It's truly sad when people are so limited in their thinking that they think asking them to expand their knowledge alienates them.

But, I'm happy to see you don't mind hearing Spanish announcements in your local Sears store - as long as it's catering to LEGAL immigrants. /snark

[Saturday]

30. You can snark all you want....

The town I speak of has expanded to a 60% Hispanic population. If you don't think a large number of those residents aren't illegals you would be wrong. And that is EXACTLY why Sears is catering to them.

You have lofty words for why I need to learn Spanish. Don't your ideas also apply to those coming into the country that I am a citizen of? Shouldn't they learn the English word for snow or peace or love? Or is it only the citizens of the USA that need to learn a new language? Seems your 'limited thinking' only applies to me. That's what's 'sad' about your arguement.

[Cerridwen]

31. Well, at least the words you put in my mouth were English, huh?

And you speak for Sears, too. As a business, my guess would be that Sears is catering to a demographic; bet they don't care if the money is gained legally or illegally as long as it's spent in their store. But that's just a guess.

Why is it, you presume that I think you should learn Spanish? Maybe I meant Irish? Or French? Or maybe none of the above. What my "lofty words" were lamenting was the the apparent lack of intellectual curiosity I see in many in the U.S. these days. The closed minds that don't want to be bothered by anything new or different. "Learn to speak MY language, dammit" is just one symptom of that I frequently encounter. Why you think that applies to "only you" is for you to suss out.

You "debate" by putting words in my mouth then tell me how the words you put there were wrong. You don't need me for that type of "debate". Since I didn't say any of those other things to which you referred, either, I'm finished.

[Saturday]

34. Well, I presumed we were speaking about Spanish

because your original topic was about the immigration bill that deals with our southern border not the Irish immigrants coming over illegally. Don't now try to pretend we are talking about ALL languages. My point (which you missed) is that the "closed minds" you speak of might be those who refuse to learn ENGLISH. This conversation applies to me because Spanish is taking over my community. Aren't those that come to this country also saying "Learn to speak MY language, dammit" too??? I think your opinion came across loud and clear and I don't see where I put words in your mouth....but anyway, adios amigo. Have a good day.

[ldf]

53. i think most have no clue to the reality...unless they are living in it...

(yet another of my incendiary, inflamatory flamebait posts... to which i will not respond. this is my opinion, YMMV. i think it is referred to as driveby posting...)

aside from the gross incompentence of our leaders in washington, THIS is what is going to destroy us as a leading force in the world of nations.

we can divide up and refuse to speak to each other. (i believe to balkanize refers to the affect.) that will result, just as it has done in countless other areas around the world, in generations of bickering, fighting peoples, who spend all their energy in anger, rather than communicating and acting to improve all our lots in life.

or, maybe the newcomers, in their desire to learn to live in their newly adopted country, will make an effort to adjust, and NOT to recreate the very society that they have fled.

but apparently that is NOT an option. what is expected? we natives must switch to the language of the newcomers. our payoff? our own citizens can compete with these newly (or not so newly) arrived immigrants for jobs that pay less than the minimum wage. or maybe to work for tips alone. (that is an issue that should be laid at the feet of businesses, but the availability of the cheap labor is the source of the problem. if it wasn't available, the businesses couldn't participate.)

specifically, here in manhattan, we (my partner and i, living on my income only) have the "privilege" of paying 1600 a month for rent (because we can't afford to live in the more desireable neighborhoods, which for our apartment size - a moderate 3 bedroom - would be 3000 - we're mid-late fifties, we have separate bedrooms and "stuff" that we are not willing to throw out, so we need an extra room), while the section 8 equivalent rent for my apartment is 500. section 8 is subsidized public housing, meaning the government pays the portion of the rent not paid by the tenant. if a landlord doesn't care to maintain their buildings, section 8 is desireable. guaranteed rent income.

cram in anywhere from 3 to 10 people in studio to three bedroom apartments, and you have the beginnings of exactly what they were trying to excape. (no, it is not legal, but the landlords don't care. these tenants won't complain about ANYTHING because they don't want to draw attention to themselves. they are the perfect tenants because only the very minimal maintenance must be done. try living in a 32 floor highrise that is one step up from project housing, with a thousand people, and one working elevator out of three...)

many hallways are coverd in graffiti, the stairwells smell like public restrooms, NO ONE complains about noisy neighbors, with the exception of a few of us, but not enough to warrant change.

during the day the streets are absolutely packed with people, none speaking english, sidewalks filled with tables set up selling used clothes, shoes, anything that can be sold. the streets are coverd with trash because the culture is just throw it down. the buildings are covered by graffiti. people will, literally, throw their trash out the windows.

i love new york city. my whole reason of moving here was to live here in manhattan. rather than have a one-way two to three hour commute, i will put up with living in a third world neighborhood where i can't even ask a question at the local supermarket because only the manger speaks enough english to answer a question.

when we go out, we excape to midtown, downtown, eastside, westside. anywhere but this neighborhood.

what is happening is that bad neighborhoods are being replaced by the block. new condos and "luxury apartments" are going up (SOHA, or south harlem, is the new up and coming area). they are priced beyond the middleclass. the result is housing for the rich, and subsidized housing for the poor. i don't make enough to live in a nice neighborhood, and i make to much to qualify for subisidzed housing IN a nice nighborhood.

i'm all for the melting pot concept.

but if i wanted to live in a third world neigborhood i would move to one in the third world.

another step towards a solution, which will cause everyone here on du to wail and gnash their teeth because it is so politically incorrect, is to ELIMINATE anyone just being born here being a citizen.

to me, from observations in my own neighborhood, the key is to get here. once you get here, you will not qualify for any benefits, but once you have a baby, the benefits door will open.

and from then on, it is strictly a numbers game. within a few decades, hispanics will be the majority, and the spanish language will be dominant.

unfortunately, it is not going to happen without conflict and outright violence. there will be a division. ESPECIALLY if we can't communicate.

and it is not MY responsibility to learn spanish, nor in any way make it easier for the balkanization to occur.

it IS the responsibility of anyone moving here to learn english.

it is strange how over the years my views have changed on a few things.

i am quick to call myself a liberal from the south, and have always realized that we, as citizens, need to be able defend ourselves, primarily from our own government, therefore i believe in the right to bear arms. not necessarily an ak-47, but arms.

i also believe that some crimes are so heinous that execution is the only option. i do realize that equal implementation of that seems to be questionable, so i am flexible on that. i could go along with REAL life sentences, removing them from society, and eliminating the death penalty.

my views on immigration have changed. since i have now experienced it first hand, i realize that we can not be a destination for unlimited numbers of people trying to reach a better life.

we have got to help them better their lives at home, and not encourage them come here, instead.

[RB TexLa]

33. Humanity and compassion unites a society

Not this idiotic idea that single language speaking Americans have some kind of right to understand every word spoken around them.

[Saturday]

43. I didn't say "every word spoken around me" did I???

I said I wanted to hear the announcements in a store I was shopping in. Does that make me bad? A single language UNITES a country. Ask Canada.

[RB TexLa]

44. You said you have a right to understand the announcements in a private business

Where do you believe such a right comes from?

[Saturday]

It comes from my dollar bill.

The one Sears wants me to spend in their store.

[RB TexLa]

54. Desde que usted no ha dado un dollar al DU

Usted no tiene el derecho de tener ingles hablo con usted aqui.


No star, no Ingles.

[Saturday]

47. It comes from my dollar bill.

The one Sears wants me to spend in their store.

[EFerrari]

46. Canada is a problematic example.

[EFerrari]

45. What is your source for your assertion that immigrants

don't want to learn English, hermanita? Because currently, there aren't enough ESL classes for everyone who wants in.

[supernova]

49. I would like to know that too

ESL classes around here can't keep up with the demand. Even from people who work 2-3 jobs. They still, STILL want to learn English.

[Madspirit]

51. Texan Here

Well, we're not allowed to call people racists here. ...but your speech is. I have many illegal friends and MY state did belong to THEM first.
Lee

[Solly Mack]

19. Ain't no more cahs in WaRshington then? Ayup. Like, oh my gawd

[Cerridwen]

22. The ever wandering "r"

:D

I always wonder when it will turn up and in which word.

[Solly Mack]

25. One of the best things about America is the different accents

the different regions speaking the same (sorta) english differently...due to the early and not so early influences (Africa, German, Scot, Irish, French, Spanish, Original people etc)

There is no one true American "english" (yes, there's proper grammar) - but the colorfulness of the languages that make up the "english" spoken in America, with the multitude of accents, is something I love.

[WinkyDink]

37. An "Official Language" is not the same as "Official Dialect".

Not, at least, since Chaucer's day.

"Now" is still "now", even if a Pennsylvania Dutchy would say "Nah". What it isn't, is "ahora".

[Solly Mack]

39. Of course it isn't but then people do say "Can't you speak english?"

when a word is pronounced in a regional dialect and I was having fun with that

You know, just for example - nuclear.
:)

[WinkyDink]

35. On a purely financial basis (documents, signs), this makes sense.

But then, I'm not an immigrant from the Basque area or Finland.
Heh.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Profanity is the universally understood language of America.

It is indispensable when dealing with computers, shrink wrap, American made cars, TV "news", and, particularly when watching the antics of politicians.

[MonkeyFunk]

41. A national language isn't necessarily

an official language.

[Cerridwen]

42. Once it's "on the books" it most definitely is

official. And can be referred to as such should a need arise - say a lawsuit in which a citizen takes issue with government paperwork which includes a language other than English. Especially if there is a law on the books which states that "government will promote English" as the official language.

The "law of unintended consequences" could get ugly or silly around that seemingly innocuous phrase.

[MonkeyFunk]

48. The law in question

does not make English the official language of the US. It doesn't outlaw other languages.

In all real respects, English is already the national language.

I'm just saying the wording of the OP is wrong. I have for decades strongly opposed making English the official language of the US. But this law doesn't do that.

[BlooInBloo]

50. Can we lock up all the hicks who can't speak 'murican then?