If a tragedy in a metropolitan area killed 27 people, there would be outrage and grief

[proud2BlibKansan]

27 soldiers from my metro area have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.kansascity.com/static/images/media/MoKanWarDead33_Flash/

If this many people died in an accident or were murdered, the entire metro area would be up in arms. A crazed man with a trunk full of guns recently went on a rampage here and killed his neighbor, shot a cop and went to a shopping mall and murdered two more people. The community was stunned. And that was only three tragic deaths.

Why are we not in the streets grieving over the needless deaths of 27 soldiers? Where is the outrage?

[DS1]

1. People are clearly tolerating the trickle of blood

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Maybe if the blood was gushing?

[sanskritwarrior]

19. Certainly you don't want

more of us to die over there do you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. That sentiment seems to fit your platform better than mine

[BrklynLiberal]

2. "Where is the outrage?" The question of the decade.

When I get all upset and start sputtering about what is going on, there are those who tell me to calm down!!!!!!
One of the reasons to bring back the draft is to wake up all those complacent, middle of the roaders, who think this will all go away if we just wait long enough.
That is probably what many Germans said about Hitler. I would bet that many of them did not even survive his regime long enough to regret their inactivity.

[sanskritwarrior]

3. Did they all die at once?

The reason I bring this up is that 27 deaths in one day would be a national tragedy. 27 deaths over 4 years has less impact, wouldn't you agree?

[BrklynLiberal]

5. Are the 3500 dead, over 25,000 wounded, the 500,000 dead Iraqi's not a National tragedy only

because it took 4 years for these numbers to accrue?

[sanskritwarrior]

6. Look the OP was about 27 deaths from KC over a 4 year period

not the entire war. We are talking about a micro effect, not a macro one. Please keep this on topic.........

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Oh you want to talk about the entire war? Fine then.

3452

This is my thread. You don't need to be calling anyone out for not being on topic.

[sanskritwarrior]

17. Ummm ok

I can say whatever I want within DU rules....I'm not calling anyone out, but you apparently are trying to.

You obviously want to make 27 deaths over a four year period a national tragedy. Good for you, I see it differently and am respectfully disagreeing with you. I expect you to show a little class and tolerate someone with a different opinion.

[BlooInBloo]

18. You were very nice in the way you correctly pointed out the apples&oranges phenomenon...

... The jackass imbecilic responses clearly illustrate my rationale for skipping the nice step, and simply slamming idiots for their idiocy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. 27 needless deaths

Do you think that's okay?

[sanskritwarrior]

12. Are 27 people killed in car accidents needless deaths

Look you're talking about people I serve with, of course their deaths are tragedies and could have been avoided had the Chimperor not wanted to play Army. But if you are asking me if 27 deaths from one metro area over a 4 year period would cause oturage and grief, I disagree with you. These deaths are not for a good cause, but 27 deaths over 4 years is not exactly a national tragedy. It's about perspective, those young men should still be alive, if we had the leaders we deserve they would still be alive. But the fact that 27 died from the KC area over four years is not that distressing to most people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. But is it distressing to you?

I am not asking you to make a determination as to how the entire country should feel about this. I want YOUR reaction. If 27 people died needlessly in your community, would that concern you? Would you be outraged? Or would you not be distressed?

[sanskritwarrior]

14. If they died on one day at one event ,

Yes, terribly distressing. Over 4 years? Not so much.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. So needless death doesn't bother you?

Even one bothers me. Several of the parents of the soldiers who have died in Iraq have been speakers at our peace rallies and other events here. Their stories are just heartbreaking.

This is a note the parents of the soldier who died most recently wrote in his yearbook 5 years ago. I can't read this without crying.

‘Our pride and our joy’
From the day you were born, you have been our pride and our joy. We have been proud of what you’ve accomplished: years of soccer, becoming an Eagle Scout, and years of band. But most of all, we are proud of your love for your family and friends. We know how much you love God, and our prayer is that you will continue to seek His guidance as you graduate.

Love, Mom & Dad

— From a note Benjamin Ashley’s parents wrote to him in Truman High School’s yearbook, Heritage 2002

http://www.kansascity.com/115/story/123628.html

[sanskritwarrior]

16. So every car accident troubles you?

Every single person that dies in the bathtub bothers you? Every single person that dies from smoking bothers you? Every heart attack? You must be in mourning 24/7...........

That note to that young soldier is touching, I might not like the war, I might not like the Resident, but if you join me in the volunteer Army your death is never needless.......Good leaders or treasonous bastards, we have a job to do. When ordered to a war zone we carry it out, if we fall our death was not needless it was in service to this country.

Before I forget spare me the lecture about Iraq being illegal, like I have said on DU hundreds of times until Congress deauthorizes the war, those of us in the military have no other recourse than to follow our "Legal" orders. Until someone overrides daddy Bush we have to follow those orders.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. I have met many sopldiers who are

actively resisting their government and this illegal war. It was soldiers speaking out in the 60s who played a large part in ending the Vietnam war. Those are the soldiers I admire and respect. Anyone who has volunteered to go to Iraq and fight in this illegal invasion gets no respect from me.

I am also very active in counter recruitment so I know first hand how recruiters lie to young people. The growing movement I am a part of is working hard to educate young people and recruits so they understand their rights and learn the truth.

There is nothing patriotic or noble about participating in an illegal war started by a president guilty of war crimes. The deaths of these participants is nothing less than tragic. It is my goal and the shared goal of every activist I have met in this movement to support and educate the soldiers caught up in this insanity. So yes, we do grieve for every death and we do see them as far more tragic and preventable than most other deaths. We also grieve for three quarters of a million innocent Iraqis, whose life was better under Sadaam than it is now.

So yes I will argue with you about the legality of this war. I would hope that your time on DU will help you understand just why it is illegal and what you as one soldier can do. Educating yourself would be a great place to start. There are many soldiers in your position speaking out. Perhaps their words will have a greater impact on you than mine do.

http://www.ivaw.org/

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/

http://www.sirnosir.com/

[sanskritwarrior]

35. Look those sites are nice but until

CONGRESS or the FEDERAL SUPREME COURT rule the war illegal, it is not illegal. Saying something is illegal does not make it so. Having the power of Congress in a resolution or a Supreme Court ruling stating the war is illegal would make it illegal. At that point I do not have to listen to a God Damn word Bush says, until that point yes I do. Any soldier of mine that tries to get out of the war using this defense I will personally testify against in a court martial. It has nothing to do with my politics and everything to do with an oath we took. An oath that as of today no one had ruled has been broken. This site is incredibly informative, but incredibly frustrating as people try and convince me that the war is illegal. If you can point out the Congressional resolution number or the name of the Supreme Court decision please do so, if not then you are INCORRECT. Say whatever you want, call me whatever name you want, I am right in the eyes of the law of the United States of America. We as soldiers do not get the luxury of deciding what president we will listen to or not listen to, it has nothing to do with "just following orders" and everything to do with "good order and discipline". Forgive me if I'm not in the mood to see the Army with the power to decide what orders it will follow and what orders it won't follow. In 231 years we have never had a large scale mutiny in the Army, I don't really want to see one, as once good order and discipline are destroyed it is nigh impossible to get them back. Soldiers have orders to follow, our Congress just approved more money for this war, if that doesn't demonstrate to me that the war is legal nothing else will. So please stop trying to get soldiers to break their oath and instead work on impeachment or getting the war de-authorized. What you are doing is aiding and abetting criminals, they might be my brothers in arms but they are criminals the day they shirk their duty break their oath.

[tabasco]

20. That's some serious bullshit right there.

You must be a Limbaugh listener. Comparing our troops' deaths to car accident victims is scurrilous. It shows such a lack of respect for the sacrifice of our troops. I'm alerting on your dumb ass.

edit: REMF who never saw a bullet fly if you're in at all.

[sanskritwarrior]

21. Oh lord

alert away, I stated my case as to why the OP is making an apples and oranges comment, I'm pretty sure the mods are smart enough to see that.

And no thanks I don't like fat pigs drugged up on pills on my radio........but thank you for knee jerking.

[tabasco]

22. You don't have me fooled John Wayne. n/t

[sanskritwarrior]

23. Well you had better keep your eye on me then

I don't know how I will sleep at night with the all watching eye of tabasco watching my every move.......:eyes:

As I have said before, I have pictures, I have an AKO email addy and if people wait until december I'll be posting pics from Iraq again........until such time as you can prove I am a charlatan, please don't call me out as it violates the rules at DU......

[sanskritwarrior]

38. LOL first I was a fake, now I'm a REMF, by next week

I'll be a grunt........:eyes:

[BrklynLiberal]

4. They Thought They Were Free....

The analogy of this description to current US is scary as hell.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE

<snip>

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

<snip>

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

[southerncrone]

7. It's the frog in the pot technique.

Place a frog in a pot of cold water over a fire & he doesn't jump out because the water "gradually" heats up allowing him to adjust to the increasing temperature....until it is too late.

Were all on the same lily pad.

Ribit.

[sanskritwarrior]

8. Now that is something I agree with totally

[bobbolink]

25. You said in another post it was OK if over 18,000 died every year in the US.

Seems it's only some lives that you deem important.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Pardon me?

When did I say that?

[bobbolink]

28. When you said health care was only of interest AFTER the war was over.

You got that from Cindy, right?

The very conservative estimate is that at least 18,000 people die IN THE US EVERY YEAR from lack of health care.

Many physicians are saying it's more like 100,000 EACH YEAR.

Yet, that's not important to you.

Let 'em eat cake, right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. No I did not get that frm Cindy; I do have a mind of my own

I think ending the war is more important right now than any other campaign. I never said I didn't support a health care initiative. I have spent over 4 years on this campaign to end the war and that is where I will continue to focus my energies. Each one of us can only do so much. And I wish you luck with your health care campaign.

[bobbolink]

30. Too bad you can't understand how your shunning of the suffering of others

affects us.

Your reply to that thread was very... cold.

You made it clear that all the people suffering and dying HERE IN THE US was of no consequence, and that is Cindy's attitude.

The numbers of deaths are higher from lack of health care, but that matters not to you.

You know, it's very sad when your heart has only room for a certain segment of the population.

There was a time when "liberals" were able to concentrate on Civil Rights, Poverty AND war, all at once.

What have we lost, that we can't do that anymore?

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. And it's too bad you misinterpret me

I was marching for health care rights years ago. I helped write a grant to get dental services to low income kids in my community. That is a yearly process that takes hours and hours of my time. I have actively participated in actions protesting Medicaid cuts in this area. So when it comes to health care reform, I can definitely say been there done that.

I just happen to think that the illegal invasion of Iraq is the most critical issue facing us as a country. Any other issue placed before us, especially in view of the vote to continue the war this past week, could be considered a smokescreen. So I am focusing on the war right now.

And again, I will say good luck with your health care campaign.

[bobbolink]

33. I "misinterpreted" nothing. I can only go by your words, which were cold and detached.

And, it's too bad that more deaths, which are invisible, aren't so important to you.

Maybe someday you'll be able to stand in my shoes and understand the significance of this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. You have no idea who I am or what I have personally experienced

All you have are my words, which you are placing far more meaning into than I intended. Sorry you apparently misunderstood me. I do support your efforts on health care reform. I just will have to cheer from the sidelines, as I am booked with peace activities.

:hi: PEACE!!

[bobbolink]

37. Reread your title.... how could those deaths occur with NO OUTRAGE

Well, the same way deaths of poor people can occur, with NO OUTRAGE from "liberals" and "progressives".

Same/same.

You're part of it, too.

[nonconformist]

39. Dollars to donuts she HAS insurance. nt

[bobbolink]

42. YUP.

"US and THEM"

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Neither one of my kids has insurance

And one of them had a medical crisis (he cut off two fingers) without insurance. So he went into debt and ruined his credit at the ripe ole age of 20. He has other health issues as well and unless one of us wins the lottery, he is facing huge medical bills that will take a decade or more to pay off. So yes, health care access is indeed important to me.

Like I said, you don't know me or my struggles. And you are clearly NOT the only DUer who has had troubles or has been negatively affected by the state this country is in today. Some of us are actually trying to change things and don't spend our time here whining about our particular problems.

At any rate, I take it you are feeling better and I am glad to see that.

[Madspirit]

40. Let Them Eat Cake

Your issues are my issues bobbolink. I have been homeless, for years at a time and still have no health care or insurance. I still live in poverty. These ARE my priority issues. I still have time to protest the war but it is NOT my priority issue. More people die OF poverty than die in the war, by far.

I still think Proud2blib is a good fighter for our side. The war IS her passion. You are both two of the most progressive women on this site. MOST progressive. I respect you both immensely and I hate seeing you two argue.

Peace to you both.
Lee

[bobbolink]

41. I won't take the hindmost anymore.

I did that once, as a woman, during Vietnam.

I won't do it as a poor person now.

If my death, and the deaths of other poor people aren't important, then screw it.

Edited to add: Just as many of us women during Vietnam protests dropped away from politics then because we weren't included except to serve the men coffee, etc., *I* have dropped out of the war issue BECAUSE poverty isn't taken seriously, or even given lip service, except to USE US in the peace movement.

The turning point for me was when Cindy raged about people working for universal health care!!! She *dared* to say that it wasn't important, that the war was the only thing that mattered!

There was NO OUTRAGE to her statement, and nothing said about those of us dying from poverty AT ALL. That's when I said to hell with it. If I'm that unimportant, then I'm not needed in "peace".

Everyone else makes their own decisions. I, however, WON"T be shat on anymore.

[Madspirit]

43. I...Damn...emotional issues

I was in a state institution for two years when I was 15 and 16...a nuthouse...in Texas...over 35 years ago. I never again lived in the home of my parents. The abuse made me crazy and I would never go back. (I can say "nuthouse" much in the tradition of blacks saying the "n" word, etc. It's mine to say.) I suffer from bipolar disorder, PTSD and depression and I was diagnosed long before they were the chic illness' du jour and I've had many shrinks since, verify them.

I could tell you about horrors that would make your hair stand up. I've been tied to chairs, thrashed, locked in seclusion for weeks at a time with no clothes, just a mattress but no sheets because you can hang yourself with sheets, been held down while thorazine was shot in my ass and the things that happened to me were nothing compared to what happened to some. I never got EST but had friends who did. They were still doing that on my ward when I was there.

Then I got shoved out into the streets, for years and years. ...and it was off and on like that all the way into my 30s. When on the streets I've begged for money; I've shoplifted food; I've begged behind restaurants and I've dumpster dived. I've been spit on and I had a pick-up truck of Good Folk stop their truck and empty their garbage can on my head. I've never had health care, insurance, etc. I've rarely had the medication I need just to survive with the illnesses I have.

...and I'm a lesbian and so cannot even be on the insurance of the women I have spent 15 years of my life with and intend to spend the rest of my life with. If something happens to me or I am in a position where I can't make my own decisions, my life will be in the hands of some East Texas hick relatives I haven't seen in 25 years. We are probably going to go the way of one of our gay politicians in Texas, Glen Maxey. He adopted his lover. Then Melanie and I would be legally next of kin. Marriage would sure make it all easier. Things suck for gays and lesbians, especially for...much like with everyone...poor ones. We can't yet afford the lawyer to do this so I better not get sick anytime soon.

...but that doesn't make the war NOT our issue too. Do you know how many of the older homeless are Viet Nam vets? I will concentrate on issues of poverty, mental illness, women's issues and gay issues but the war is my issue too and it will get some of my time. It is sad that "they" don't see our issues as theirs too. They just step right over us and don't even see us...or they throw garbage on our heads....but I'm not going to be as blind as them because this war is creating the next generation of poverty-stricken, mentally ill homeless people.
Lee

[Madspirit]

32. k&r...n/t

[TahitiNut]

34. We have a serial murderer in all of our regions of the country.

His name is George W. Bush. He's been murdering people in our communities for nearly six years and there's no indication that he'll be brought to justice anytime soon.