I'm an American first, Democrat second.

[Joe Fields]

I take offense, when people tell me not to bash my own party. It's my party, and I'll bash if I want to. Just like family members, I don't like outsiders bashing my party, but we should be able to bash each other with impugnity, and still stand strong as one unit.

But I'll tell you, the main reason I take offense with some people who berate those of us who have been bashing the dems of late is this: they remind me of one of the reasons I don't like republicans. And that is"the party can do no wrong." Right or wrong, they say, we will look weak and unorganized if we trash our own.

Well people, I'm an American first, and a proud Democrat second. And if my dem leaders do something I think is counterproductive to the welfare of this country, I'm by God going to speak out. Keith Olberman hit the nail right squarely on the head the other night, in his special comment. I could not sum up my feelings about the disgraceful abandonment of the electorate by dem leaders any better than the way he put it. I am still in shock, and I feel abandoned by the party leaders I counted on to right this ship of state.

I believe the dem leadership has blood on it's hands, and that they are now co-owners of this damned war. What they did was NOT for the good of this country, and I will speak out about it every time I see them betray us.

You have the right to tell me to shut up, as well as I have the right to tell you to go to hell.

[Bluzmann57]

1. Yep. We all should be.

But bashing isn't the same as disagreeing, in my book. Hell, I love my sister, and we are quite similar, but we still disagree on some things. But just because I tell her I think she may be wrong on a particular issue, that doesn't mean I'm bashing her, it just means we disagree. In the end, we stick together, just like most Democrats.

[Joe Fields]

10. Right. I was just using their terminology. But, I agree with you.

[elocs]

18. That's a good analogy. Disagree with other Democrats, but in the end

agree to disagree and give each other some respect. We are Democrats and not each our own personal and infallible little god. We should at least give some consideration that the other person may be right or may have a good point. Democrats should not be trashing Democrats. That is the job of somebody else.

[hfojvt]

52. except that there has been alot of bashing

and not just bashing, but rending of garments and wailing and gnashing of teeth and crying out 'why do we bother to vote for Democrats?' and 'these people are traitors' and 'I am re-registering as an independent'. So we are not talking to siblings who are disagreeing with a sister, we are talking to siblings who express hatred or contempt of our sister, who threaten to disown her or to leave the family themselves. It is the man in the back who said 'everyone attack' who has created this ballroom blitz, not the people calling for calm.

[tavalon]

2. I totally agree with you

When KO took on the Democrats, I didn't know how I would feel but I was feeling so furious at the time, that I cheered him as much as when he excoriates the other side.

Edited to add: I gave you your fourth recommend but I know this one will go to the Greatest Page!

[bigtree]

3. calling folks republicans is a really popular defense here

you really think we can 'bash each other with impugnity, and still stand strong as one unit?'

good luck with that.

[Joe Fields]

15. silent acquiescence is what got us here in the first place.

meek capitulation is not good politics, any way you slice it.

[elocs]

17. When somebody stoops to call another Democrat a Republican or RWer or Freeper

because they disagree with their stance, they have already lost the argument. Yep, that's pretty common around here.

[Joe Fields]

21. What, you think it's not likely that a little bit of that ISN'T going on?

how naiive of you. And, I didn't call them republicans. I said they employed one of the tactics that I identify with republicans. Now that I've made myself clear, then if you still disagree with me, fine. But I called no one here a republican.

[elocs]

27. I'm not saying you did, I am saying it is commonly done to others at DU. n/t

[Igel]

34. I actually rather like the phrase.

It loses nothing in the decoding, but it contains a very nice pun.

"Impunity" + "impugn" --> "impugnity"


On the other hand, allowing criticism to be only clan-internal, while demanding that the members close ranks against any criticism from outside the clan (whether accurate or not), is not something I'm up for.

[sharp_stick]

4. on edit

I was a little hard on the guy here. so deleted.

[mmonk]

5. I'm with you. What does it take to stop

this rape of the constitution and this nation? I don't vote for politics as usual as the citadel burns.

[dflprincess]

6. Well said

I would add that the kind of blind loyalty some are advocating is what led to a Justice Department full of good Bushies.

[AnOhioan]

7. K&R

Thank you for a great post. The Democratic Party can only grow stronger if we, it's members, call out the leadership when they act in ways not beneficial to the country. We are not now, nor ever will be, a "lockstep" political party despite the wishes of some.

[puebloknot]

8. Constructive -- even angry -- criticism is not "bashing."

It's called democratic participation in the workings of our governing structure.

[elocs]

23. Except I don't consider calling people "cowards" because they did not vote as you wanted

to be constructive criticism. How exactly does calling a representative or senator a coward classify as being constructive? How does this make them a better Democrat? Is the purpose to humiliate them into voting as you wish? Are all of the Democrats in Congress answerable to my particular point of view? Or might they also be answerable to many who may not agree with me or with many here?

[Joe Fields]

25. You think what they did was the "right" thing to do?

I call it cowardice, pure and simple. And what I call them is far more constructive than what they did to this country.

[elocs]

30. No, it was not cowardice. That word gets thrown about pretty cheaply.

When you call our Democratic representatives cowards, exactly how do you expect to work with them in the future on vital issues? It ain't over till it's over and 1 wrong vote does not a coward make. You are setting the bar very low as to what makes a coward if it is simply because they did not vote as you think they should. Talk is cheap and calling people you need to work with "cowards" is not constructive.

[Joe Fields]

32. We must agree to disagree on this issue.

[elocs]

38. Thank you and done. n/t

[whopis01]

48. right...

When you call our Democratic representatives cowards, exactly how do you expect to work with them in the future on vital issues?


How could they possibly work on any vital issues after someone on a message board calls them a coward? An attack like that would cause any elected official to curl up into a fetal position in the corner, wouldn't it?

[autorank]

64. The fear and trembling is palpable.

If we had that type of influence, the word would be everywhere;)

Lets 'let it out' - get to the bottom of this. Rattle some cages.

The compromising Dems in the House are home now listening to their constituents.

I have faith in the basic good judgment of the American people. 71% opposition to this
war, something like 93% of Democrats and 77% of indys, shows me that people have all the
facts. They want a solution, not inside baseball bull shit.

Let the word go forth from the people to those elected - get the damn job done already!

[puebloknot]

40. The 2006 election was a strong mandate for ending the war.

I haven't personally used the word "coward," I don't think. But I do consider it a betrayal of the oath of office to protect and defend our Constitution, when Democrats continue to fund an illegal war.

In the final analysis, elected officials are answerable to the rule of law -- or were, in our former democratic republic.

[sellitman]

44. Calling them Cowards does not make them better candidates BUT.......

That is their job. What it is though is a very descriptive adjective that fits the situation to a tee.

Rotten miserable cowards!

:grr:

[Karenina]

9. I'm a HUMAN BEING first

a WORLD CITIZEN second
a musician third
a hobby linguist fourth
an American and a Democrat... Both identities which cause me shame now

and like you, I have no reason to pretend otherwise.

[Swamp Rat]

12. Ach Liebling! You beat me to it!

:D :hug:

[Karenina]

22. Mein Schatz!!!

Ausgezeichnet!!! Was sonst? :loveya:

[DFW]

45. Wir müssen aufpassen

Sonst wird das hier zu Gewohnheit!

[Madspirit]

29. "a WORLD CITIZEN"...YES!!...n/t

[Breeze54]

11. Go to Hell

NOT!!!!!!!!!! :sarcasm: :P

"the party can do no wrong." :puke:

What a bunch of hooey!! I'm with you!
When they deserve a brow beating? They'll get one!

They earned it, after all!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well said!!


:kick: & R'd!!!

Edited to add a 'y'

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. There's a whole slew of things I put before being an American or Democrat.

Though I agree with your premise.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools" - Schopenhauer

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[Joe Fields]

14. well put. I should amend my remarks. I am a member of the

human race first.

[Berry Cool]

16. K&R

"Disagreement = disloyalty" is the credo of the opposition.

[Deja Q]

19. Same here. I applaud your braveness.

It's about the candidates, what they say they will do, and the actions they follow their words up with.

[LWolf]

20. I am

a human being. A woman. A daughter, a mother, and a grandmother. A teacher, a gardener, a lover, a partner, a care-giver, a friend, a thinker, a reader, a horsewoman, and a lover of and citizen of earth. Then I am a citizen of the U.S., and then I am a Democrat.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Hey! Look at me! bitchbbitchbitch! whinewhinewhine! I'm an American! nyahnyah!

[Joe Fields]

28. It may sound like bitchin' and whinin' to you, friend, but I'm mad as hell,

and I've let my leaders know it.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

31. Thank you for your articulate opinion. n/t

[bvar22]

33. Looked in a mirror lately?

BIG K&R
:dem:

[The Straight Story]

35. What are you first and foremost? The OP stated pretty well, I think, the feelings of many here

Our party is a means to an end - to protect that which we are first and foremost, Americans - ie, the ideals of what it means to be/want to be American. Free.

That ideal has yet to be fully realized, mainly because those in power have not always made the right choices.

They cannot hide behind a letter after their name, their actions are what truly defines them. And just because they wear the same letter on their jacket does not make them immune to having their asses kicked when they fight against the ideals we hold to be self evident.

[Forkboy]

37. Oh,we're looking at you alright.

And it ain't pretty.

[Madspirit]

26. k&r...and..

I agree with you. I'm not a clone. I wouldn't vote third party because who is in office affects real people's lives...the poor, the homeless, single mothers, women's rights, gay rights...and Republicans are terrible as far as their record on abusing the neediest of us but "criticize" and call to account our own...yes. It's essential or we just become The Republican Lite Party.
Lee

[progressoid]

36. Aaayup!

[rucky]

39. It goes in this order:

Political party, cronies, God, fetuses, mistresses, football, family, and then country. Got it?

[Joe Fields]

47. lol. I'll try to remember that!

[Fleshdancer]

55. mistresses before football?

No no no no....

This is the correct order:

Cronies, GOP, fetus, talking about God, football, mistresses, country, family, fetus graduate.



Cronies ALWAYS come first.

[Philosoraptor]

41. reagan sayeth: 'thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow republican', fuck that.

I agree with you totally, we are not a lock step party.

[vssmith]

42. I agree.

Not to name names but there are Republicans out there that hide out in Dems clothing. Oh fuck it, I will name one--Hillary R Clinton.

[uberllama42]

43. I agree with everything you say, but I have to object to

your use of Al Gore as your avatar. Gore is not nearly as great, IMHO, as people make him out to be on this site. He is a liar, a hypocrite, and a corporate bigwig. In many ways he was as bad as George W. Bush in 2000, and the subsequent good work that he has done cannot change the situation that existed then.

While I admire the work Gore is doing now, I abhor the hero-worship I see on this site. There are a lot of reasons to criticize him. Too many DUers would prefer to ignore those things.

[uppityperson]

63. How is Gore "a liar, a hypocrite, and a corporate bigwig" as bad as gwb?

[northofdenali]

79. Didn't see your post earlier, but you know where I come from.

:hug:

[DFW]

46. Remember Howard Dean's classic phrase:

"I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party

But, still, he acknowledged that there are other viewpoints within
the party, and his staying aware of that led to his being elected
chairman. I very much doubt we would have taken both houses of Congress
if he had not been chairman. Granted, there are some Democrats in
Congress whose claim to party membership is dubious, but the fact
remains that they are not Republicans. "Proud to be an American" is
no longer synonymous with "Proud to be a Republican."

It's not yet what WE want, but it's not a rubber stamp for Cheney (aka Bush)
anymore, either. We'll get there, and anyone who thinks it's not an uphill
fight is delusional.

But, as David Ben Gurion said, "he who does not believe in miracles
is not a realist."

We'll never QUITE get there, but we'll get a lot closer than we are now.

[wildhorses]

49. i am a child of the universe

second star to the right, straight on til morning

[Joe Fields]

66. and a beautiful one, at that!

:hug:

[amb123]

50. K & R. Well Said.

If I wanted to join a political party in which everyone rendered blind, unquestioning obedience to it's leadership, I'd join the Republicans.

:patriot:

[19jet54]

51. Public vs Private...

... it is just good manners to disagree in private, not air the laundry in public.

Unless you wish to destroy someone, it is best to always leave a way out that saves face for everyone involved.

You cannot conquer the world alone.

If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

If you play with pigs, be prepared to get mud on you.

:bounce:

[Joe Fields]

67. I strongly disagree. Using your analogy, everyone who took to the streets

in protest, during the Vietnam war would have been better served by politely and discreetly writing their elected representatives? I hardly think so. The hue and cry of public outrage can serve as a barometer for politicians who pay attention.

[19jet54]

75. Both ways are necessary...

... but it depends on which method you have the most access to, and the most effect by your actions. Between friends, private is much preferred, if you wish to keep the friend. Even political enemies usually have to work together, which is why attacks in Congress must be "party politics" and not "personal attacks".

[Fleshdancer]

53. Great post....

Especially your point about what separates the Democrats from the Republicans. Obviously there are many many things that separate the two parties, but Al Franken said it best: Republicans treat their country like their mom and for them, mommy can do no wrong. In many ways, the Republicans have the same mentality regarding their party. There are few times when they get angry at the GOP but most of the time they believe whatever the talking points tell them they should be believing.

We Democrats love our country and we love our party but not as a children. By taking the analogy a step further, it would be similar to a parent's love for their child. You know your child is wonderful and you see their potential but you know they will never reach that potential without a swift kick in the butt every now and then. If your child is slacking, you have to call him/her on it. If your child is walking down the wrong path, you can't just stand there and close your eyes and hope for the best.

I like that we battle it out. I like that we are so diverse and so very opinionated and passionate. If we can't log on to Democratic Underground of all places to have the discussion, then where would we go?

[Edgeoforever]

54. Well said. Don't ever surrender your own judgment - for anyone.

Loyalty ends where reason does. Or ethics.

[blm]

56. Exactly - I support anti-corruption, open government Democrats and will

call out ANYONE who sides with secrecy and privilege over open government by the US citizens.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051006.html

[ManWroteTheBible]

57. Abso-friggin-lutely!

We voted for change last November. And on the surface, it looked as if our side "got it". What's happening now is not in the best interest of the country and certainly not our boots on the ground in Iraq. The Dems continue to acquiesce to the little chimperor and they damn well do not have to, so instead of change we get more of the same. It's a shame and they absolutely are becoming full partners in this fiasco. Republicans blindly follow, Progressives can think for themselves. - remember the old slogan: "Vote Republican... it's easier than thinking!" We really don't need to copy that logic. Dissent is as American as apple pie!

[KingFlorez]

58. Criticism isn't wrong

But I think on this particular issue some of the criticism isn't really fair, because the Democrats in Congress introduced a timetable and had it vetoed. Even if the timetable had gone through, the war still would have been funded until the fall when the benchmarks started, which is the same length of time the approved authorization is going last. They aren't giving up, they are still searching for a solution that will work.

[Totally Committed]

59. Right on! ---------

"You have the right to tell me to shut up, as well as I have the right to tell you to go to hell."

Awesome!

TC

[MLFerrell]

60. Are you the Joe Fields who was my RA at WLSC in 2001?

Just curious is all...

[Joe Fields]

68. No. Why? does he owe you money?

:hi:

[autorank]

61. K*R "Well people, I'm an American first, and a proud Democrat second. " Hurrah!!!

You nailed it. Great contribution and like many great contributions, it's simple.

The your party right or wrong line dissolves as of this post, forever.

It's easy to spot anti Democrat agitprop so no remarks that this opens the door for psyops.

When Americans choose to better their country by advocating for change in their political
parties, there is no shame and no criticism warranted. This isn't coming just before the
election. It's now, when it shoud be hashed out.

Outstanding post!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SayWhatYo]

62. Too bad more people didn't take that stance.

I'm not just talking about democrats either.

[Richard McBeef]

65. Is there something specific he's referring to?

[Les Ismore]

69. nevermind

f

[Kolesar]

70. What did Keith Olbermann say? Why do the dems have blood on their hands?

Why are they coowners of the war? Your post needs more development. I have not been around the tv much lately so I don't know what you are saying. I spend the eight o'clock hour working outside.

[Joe Fields]

74. here's a link

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/23/

[Vidar]

71. I prefer citizen of the world first, but I agree with your principles.

[northofdenali]

72. How many hugs can you handle, Joe Fields?

I've written enough nasty-grams in the last few days to literally blow smoke through my keyboard.

If local pols get hold of the stuff, I may never work again (sad to be a die-hard liberal Dem in a very, very red, Big Oil owned state....)

I'll bash as hard as is necessary. I'm beginning to believe in the "big money, you're screwed" area of politics on both sides.

K&R!

[Joe Fields]

76. Wow! you're too kind...

:bounce: :hi:

[northofdenali]

77. I am not kind. I'm dedicated. Your words make a big difference.

I've got cats. 5 of them. They eat, they sleep and they are the best.

People like you make all the difference in this hard, harsh world. My daddy did Democrats all my life. I'm 52. My daughter is probably the most incredible human in the known universe (sorry, little pride there). My mom, at 92, still hits the precincts every election, city, state, county, national.

I've added you to friends. Thank you for your intelligence and diligence.

[poverlay]

73. They had blood on their hands a very long time ago and frankly, I don't think

they care..

[northofdenali]

78. They are powered by money.

It's only us activist types who can make them care by denying them the money.

I love our country, I love our nation, and I think the American people are the absolute best in this wide world.

Don't quit. Don't ever quit.

[Maestro]

80. Word!

Now let's go listen to some classic rock! :)