WH now using Gestapo euphemism to describe torture

[grasswire]

Andrew Sullivan reports that the WH is now using the language of Nazis to describe our torture of human beings. The phrase in English is "enhanced interrogation techniques." In German, that's "verschaerfte Vernehmung" -- an insidious phrase used by the Gestapo.

Coming soon to a neighborhood near you, no doubt.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/politics_and_th.html

Sullivan suggests reading Orwell again.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. Let's hear again how over-the-top it is to compare what is happening here to what happened in

Pre-Nazi Germany.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html
But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.
<snip>

[tridim]

4. Another Bush success! He has nullified Godwin's law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

[BrklynLiberal]

9. For some reason your link leads to a blank page with a suggestion to do a search of Wikipedia.

I did so, and found this entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin/%27s_law

[yurbud]

21. take out the back slash before apostrophe

[tavalon]

45. That's hard work!

[symbolman]

55. Naw

I nullified THAT about four years ago when I made THIS:

"Bush is Not a Nazi, So Stop Saying That.." :) Flash that tells it ALL - turn up those speakers, never been more TRUE than NOW!

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html

[KoKo]

62. Good One! n/t

[TahitiNut]

5. Too many people seem incapable of abstract thinking.

Many, only intermittently capable of conversing in the abstract, seem to regard the abstract (often sneeringly called 'philosophical') as separate from 'reality' rather than a conceptual tool for deeper comprehension of the social and political dynamics. Thus we hear "but that was Germany" or "but that was back in 1933 - times have changed." We constantly hear the objection that any comparison is invalid until we see a genocide. What's not comprehended is the vast menu of abuses from which such a corrupt form of governance can choose makes the particular kind of atrocity inconsequential to the fact of the abuse and corruption.

[Chulanowa]

39. That's because Naziism has been reduced to the Holocaust

As horrible as the Holocaust was, to use it as the be-all, end-all benchmark for fascism is just foolish. Much is made of the six million men, women, and children killed in the Holocaust, or the millions of troops on all sides killed, with almost no mention of the plight of the 80 million people living under the Nazi Regime without ever seeing the inside of Auschwitz

[truedelphi]

41. I think you nailed it. And one night on Mike Malloy

He was asking his audience for a definition of the situation that would lead to a holocaust...
After several hours of taking calls, Mike pretty much decided that what it takes is an agreement among the leaders that it is okay to torture and violate just one person.

Because itn'st that what it boils down to? if you can find a reason to torture one individual, than all the rest is just a matter of degree.

[baldguy]

53. "With the first link, the chain is forged..."

"...The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we’re all damaged."

Everything I know I learned from Star Trek

[Marr]

54. Or when there's an agreement among the governed that they'll accept such

policies. I think our own slide really started with the 2000 elections. That was the first big domestic demonstration of how meaningless law is when it comes into conflict with the desires of GM. We've plenty of international examples prior to that, but the 2000 elections brought it home in a big way.

[bluerum]

2. Thanks - great link. eom

[bobthedrummer]

3. This WH has other phrases for Rassenkunde, etc. too. K&R.

[Richard Steele]

6. They had me at "homeland".

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[babylonsister]

14. With war czar being a close second. nt

[snappyturtle]

49. Lately I've heard the term comrade used also. nt

[cosmicdot]

31. .

[stimbox]

35. Yep, me too.

heimat sicherheit (homeland security), I believe the nazis used that term too.


After reading Orwell, please track down "Friendly Fascism" by Bertram Gross.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Friendly_Fascism_BGross.html
http://www.southendpress.org/2004/items/Friendly

[KoKo]

40. Yep....that was the clincher and when the "flag lapel pins" came out and MSM were wearing them

I knew....

[Golden Raisin]

7. "Homeland" Security rang my chimes

a long time ago. If the jackboot fits.....

[mojowork_n]

48. Let's not forget Bush, Senior, and his new "New World Order" (1991)

I think Dick Cheney used the term, back then, too, or at least that's what Wiki says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order

[Amonester]

50. Let's also not forget Bush's grandpa, and his "illegal trading with

the (Nazi industrial complex) ennemy" and his "business partners who supported Hitler" here. Heck, they even provided safe heavens to many war-criminal Nazi "Intel" straight into the CIA and elsewhere (apparently, to "save" them from the Soviets!).

Problem is, try to inform the general public with all this true information, and next thing you hear is either "crickets" or insults.

Ain't that sweet?

[lonestarnot]

8. Restore habeas corpus.

[marmar]

10. BushCo's Third Reich Ambitions.....

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[Edgeoforever]

11. Wasn't Rummy getting all misty over the blitzkrieg when planning to "streamline"

the military? On public teevee no less.

[gordianot]

12. There is general principle here at work.

A right winger will often invoke Goodwin's law and label this statement controversial because it is perceived to come from the left. As a matter of fact Goodwin's law has is a Fascist dream in that it allow one to ignore history a principal Hitler advocated for all non-aryans. On the other hand the right wing can make a statement and it is just considered to be outrageous and not controversial. An example are the comments attributed by Rosie implying Americans are terrorists. Yet a couple years ago O'Reilly attributed troop massacres to American Soldiers of SS prisoners during the battle of the Bulge ignoring the Malmedy massacre of American troops. Golly for Bill that statement was just "outrageous" along with Bill's suggestion that terrorist bomb San Francisco.

Yes there are many many clear analogies for the Bush administration to their direct and many historical ties to Nazi Germany. One plus for the Nazi's they were not closet racists, they seemed willing to let everyone know what they were. The current inheritors of Fascism are far more secretive. Call them what they are and you become controversial. Our current crop of Fascist are much more closeted in their goals and seem to allow some diversity as long as their followers are willing to follow similar policies "ends justifies the means".

Speaking for myself I do not advocated torture, denial of the Constitution, and I believe in Civil Rights. As a child I never put firecrackers down the mouth of a frog.

[NightWatcher]

13. if I ever hear, Amerika Uber Alles, I'm out

homeland is a little too close to fatherland.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. But we're not supposed to use the word Nazi

Right.

[tom_paine]

30. Even listen to what the Busheviks call themselves...Bushies. The semantic similarity is no coincid-

-ence.

Say it aloud...Buuussshhhh-iiiiieeeeees. Naaaazzzzz-iiiiiiiiisssss.

If not intentional, this self-apellation says somthing about the subcoscious of those who coined the term, such as Herr Roverer, most likely.

[alfredo]

16. Don't forget, the bush fortune first came from Prescott Bush's financing

of the Third Reich. Google "Prescott Bush Auschwitz."

How is Shock and Awe any different than Blitzkreig? Both were lightning wars designed to break the will of their victims.

[mmonk]

18. Shock and awe was a phrase coined

describing Blitzreig by the Germans (I believe by a German reporter though I'm not sure of the source). So it is one and the same.

[grasswire]

22. yes, and the phrase "let freedom reign" (which W uses on occasion)

...is a skinhead anthem.

Perhaps "compassionate conservatism" is a euphemism for "labor camps" -- could be!

[bobthedrummer]

43. Then there is the comparison and evil similarity of "Freedom is on the march"

and "Arbeit macht frei". :argh:

[alfredo]

27. I remember when Eugenics was big with the Republicans

That was during the Bush Sr term. Remember "The Bell Curve." It was a hit within Republican circles. I believe there were neo Nazis in GHW Bush's administration.

Calling Doctor Mengele!

[grasswire]

29. Bush Sr. was so enamored of eugenics when he...

...was a U.S. Congressman that his peers gave him the nickname "Rubbers" -- which he reportedly hated. Depopulating the world of "lesser" people has been a theme with some elitists.

[alfredo]

34. One of Jesse Helms' advisors was into Eugnics.

[laheina]

46. And yet

look at his family.

The whole lot of them is substandard.

[alfredo]

58. They believe their shit doesn't stink.

[me b zola]

42. Witness New Orleans

:grr:

[alfredo]

59. That is about making sure Louisiana stays red by eliminating

the reemergence of a Democratic stronghold in a very conservative state.

[MN ChimpH8R]

61. Nope, it was before that

I remember reading in American Dynasty that the Bush and Walker families were involved in war profiteering well back into the 1800s. It's a long-established family tradition.

[Rocknrule]

17. Repeat after me:

1984 is NOT an instruction manual

[seemslikeadream]

19. and listen carefully to Hitler's speeches

"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer, ein Volk"



One Hope, One people, One country, One leader.
One Hope, One people, One country, One destiny.

Stand up be brave my people we're here to stay, for a thousand years.
An oath you've spoken, can never be broken, you'll pay, in blood and tears
Never tire, never doubt, never falter, never slacken, Just believe in me.
Stand up, shout loud, stand proud, in what we will we will achieve.

One Hope, One people, One country, One leader will set you free
One Hope, One people, One country, One destiny for a thousand years

Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk.

It's not enough just to say you love your country, its not enough.
It's not enough to get down on your knees and pray, it's just not enough.

The price is high, the price you have to pay is your freedom, surrender yourselves.
Mothers send me your blue-eyed blonde-haired boys and let me see them, blue-eyed blonde-haired boys.

One Hope, One people, One country, One leader will set you free.
One Hope, One people, One country, One destiny for a thousand years.

Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk,
Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Furher, Ein Volk.

One Hope, One people, One country, One leader will set you free
One Hope, One people, One country, One destiny for a thousand years.

[jollyreaper2112]

52. pretty scary stuff

You never see translations of Hitler's speeches, I guess it's because our leaders feel it's good stuff and they don't want to waste it by associating it with the nazis.

I don't like all the stuff that Queen did (radio ga-ga was a crime) but when they wanted to rock, they rocked.

Anyway, the song One Vision always sounded a bit inspirational. It was written to encapsulate the good feelings they had after performing at Live AID. I only found out about that later. I'd originally thought that the song always had a sly "make you think" agenda to it. On the surface it's quite attractive but if you think about the lyrics a bit, you should start to feel uncomfortable. I always figured that was the original intent. Well, looks like I'm not the only one.

Original version, video of them recording in the studio

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJvNvBYTsGw

Quote:
One man one goal one mission,
One heart one soul just one solution,
One flash of light yeah one god one vision

One flesh one bone,
One true religion,
One voice one hope,
One real decision,
Wowowowo gimme one vision

No wrong no right,
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white,
No blood no stain,
All we need is one world wide vision

One flesh one bone,
One true religion,
One voice one hope,
One real decision,
Wowowowowowo

I had a dream,
When I was young,
A dream of sweet illusion,
A glimpse of hope and unity,
And visions of one sweet union,
But a cold wind blows,
And a dark rain falls,
And in my heart it shows,
Look what they've done to my dream

Vision,
Give me your hands,
Give me your hearts,
I'm ready,
There's only one direction,
One world and one nation,
Yeah one vision

No hate no fight,
Just excitation,
All through the night,
It's a celebration wowowowo yeah

One one one

One flesh one bone,
One true religion,
One voice one hope,
One real decision

Gimme one night,
Gimme one hope,
Just gimme,
One man one man,
One bar one night,
One day hey hey,
Just gimme gimme gimme
Fried chicken


And here's the song translated back into (what one could legitimately argue) the original german.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1YE_j0xIsJA

Quote:
Geburt Einer Nation lyrics

Ein Mensch, ein Ziel,
und eine Weisung.
Ein Herz, ein Geist,
nur eine Loesung.
Ein Brennen der Glut.
Ein Gott, Ein Leitbild.

Ein Fleisch, ein Blut,
ein wahrer Glaube.
Ein Ruf, ein Traum,
ein starker Wille
Gibt mir ein Leitbild.

Nicht falsch, nicht recht.
Ich sag' es dir das Schwarz
und Weiss is kein Beweis.
Nicht Tod, nicht Not.
Wir brauchen bloss
ein Leitbild fuer die Welt.

Ein Fleisch, ein Blut,
ein wahrer Glaube.
Eine Rasse und ein Traum,
ein starker Wille.

So recht mir eure Haende,
und gebt mir eure Herzen.
Ich warte.
Es gibt nur eine Richtung,
eine Erde und ein Volk.
Ein Leitbild.

Nicht Neid, nicht Streit.
Nur die Begeisterung.
Die ganze Nacht
feuren wir Einigung.

Ein Fleisch, ein Blut,
ein wahrer Glaube.
Ein Ruf, ein Traum,
ein starker Wille

Gebt mir eine Nacht.
Gebt mir einen Traum.
Nichts als das:
ein Mensch,
ein Mann,
ein Gedanke,
eine Nacht,
ein-mal.
(Jawohl.)
Nur gebt mir
gebt mir gebt mir
ein Leitbild.


This reminds me of an interview I saw with a jew who was a young boy when the nazis were coming to power. His parents knew that the nazis were working with bad mojo and told him to stay away but, being a kid, he couldn't. He attended one of the large public rallies out of curiosity. He was swept up with the emotion and zeal of the event. It was only later that he realized "Oh, wait, this means bad shit for me." His first reaction was that he wished he could give up his jewishness and remain a part of the glorious unthinking feeling.

[Eric J in MN]

20. I tried a German-English dictionary and it said Got-Worse Interrogation

...not "enhanced."

http://dictionaries.travlang.com/GermanEnglish/dict.cgi?query=verschaerfte&max=50

"verschaerfte Vernehmung"

got worse -- verschaerfte
interrogation -- die Vernehmung

[Easy]

44. A better translation

for verschärft would be "tightened". I don't know an exact translation either (and I'm german ;)), but something along the lines of enhanced, improved (with a negative connotation) fits quite well.

~Easy

[Eric J in MN]

57. We shouldn't pretend that "tightened interrogation" and "enhanced interrogation"

...are the same phrase either.

[spanone]

23. ala 'Homeland Security'.

[janx]

24. A couple of the Republican candidates used that term

during the last debate.

[booley]

25. two problems I see

One, do these phrases dreclty translate from German to English? Most phrases don't in my experience, so this could just be a coincidence. They do happen, you know.

And two, far more importantly, why should the individual phrases matter more then the fact that Shrub is torturing and breaking the laws and using euphamisms to obscure the truth? Yeah, we can make a comparison between Shrub and Hitler. We can also draw a reasonable comparison between Shrub and Stalin and Franco and every other despot in history.

But at the same time, there are differences. Like Twain said, History never repeats. But it often RHYMES.

When some one tries to draw too close a paralel between Shrub and any one example of another country becoming more and more oppressive, all the cons and other denialists have to do with cite the few differences (whether these differences are relevant or not) and say "See , they are different" and then crawl back into their mental fortress of denial they have built for themselves. They get to continue to act as if the important thing is that Shrub's America and Nazi Germany have differences and NOT that there too many simularities.

[Solly Mack]

26. They have been calling it that

2005

The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 ...

2004

The "enhanced interrogation techniques," as the CIA calls them, include feigned drowning...

[Canuckistanian]

28. That's doubleplus ungood

Oops, I mean that's disturbing.

[laheina]

47. LOL! nt

[Morgana LaFey]

I don't think that's new -- I've heard it, or something very similar

forever now, about since the torture thing erupted.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[BlooInBloo]

33. Too bad white folks don't feel the same about "blacks".

[cymbalta]

36. with Pelosi and Reid

as leaders of the 'opposition' party, they know they'll not only get away with it, but will also get tons of money to do it too.

[fooj]

37. Reid. He has had 5 years to step up. Reid voted YES. Pelosi voted NO.

[cymbalta]

38. What difference does it make?

Bush got what he wanted didn't he? And Dems are now labeled spineless and enablers. It's not only Bush's war anymore.

[bobthedrummer]

60. Kick, and a thanks to mods. This was a war of choice, a war based on lies by Mr. Bush et al.

[libodem]

51. And I still can't understand

How people of Jewish descent don't identify the treatment of Jews in the concentration camps as similar to the detention of Muslims in secret CIA prisons, Abu Grab, or Gitmo. This detention without charges, the torture, abuse, isolation, invasive medical intervention is just beyond the pale, in my estimation. You would think that no matter what color or religion, people who have been scapegoated would identify and protest. I certainly classify being rounded up all over the globe, often for a bounty or for a reward, God awful, distressing. Where are the disclaimers?

[bobthedrummer]

56. A kick against the remarks of Mr. Cheney at West Point yesterday

where he continued in NAZI style to address and assure US Army officers that the Geneva Conventions don't matter, and then he called that "ethical".

Mr. Cheney should be impeached, indicted, prosecuted and if found guilty of war crimes, war profiteering, and treason executed-not spewing forth false patriotic militaristic NAZI like ideology to OUR US Army officer graduates now beginning service in a world severely affected by a war of choice based upon extreme ideology and treasonous LIES.