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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 10:13 PM
Original message
Third Way urging Dems not to use constitutional power of war-funding.
Edited on Fri May-25-07 10:56 PM by madfloridian
We already knew that Congress controls the "purse" and the president controls the "conduct". Having Bush in charge leading us into more disaster gives the importance of those powers a stronger meaning.

But there are those within our party who are saying Congress must not use its powers.

When one branch refuses to even consider the use of its power for any reason, our government is thrown out of balance. It does not matter what the reason, it is a dangerous sign.

There was a powerful post by Russ Feingold at Tom Paine back in February.

How to End the War

Our founders wisely kept the power to fund a war separate from the power to conduct a war. In their brilliant design of our system of government, Congress got the power of the purse, and the president got the power of the sword. As James Madison wrote, “Those who are to conduct a war cannot in the nature of things, be proper or safe judges, whether a war ought to be commenced, continued or concluded.”

Earlier this week, I chaired a hearing in the Senate Judiciary Committee to remind my colleagues in the Senate that, through the power of the purse, we have the constitutional power to end a war. At the hearing, a wide range of constitutional scholars agreed that Congress can use its power to end a military engagement.


Feingold continued with more explanation:

The Constitution gives Congress the explicit power “to declare War,” “to raise and support Armies,” “to provide and maintain a Navy” and “to make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces.” In addition, under Article I, “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law.” These are direct quotes from the Constitution of the United States. Yet to hear some in the Administration talk, it is as if these powers were written in invisible ink. They were not. These powers are a clear and direct statement from the founders of our republic that Congress has authority to declare, to define and, ultimately, to end a war.

If and when Congress acts on the will of the American people by ending our involvement in the Iraq war, Congress will be performing the role assigned it by the founding fathers—defining the nature of our military commitments and acting as a check on a president whose policies are weakening our nation. There is plenty of precedent for Congress exercising its constitutional authority to stop U.S. involvement in armed conflict.


But two groups, two think tanks which work in unison and are definitely setting policy for us...by their own words...say that it would be wrong for Congress to use funding to stop the war.

First in case anyone still says they are not setting policy:

DLC will be the policy shop for the 08 candidate

"In a lengthy interview last week with a handful of reporters, Ford outlined his plans for the DLC -- ranging from its involvement in the 2008 presidential race to its work as the policy shop for the eventual Democratic nomination.


There is another group setting policy for the Democrats called The Third Way. They have talking points and memos as well.

They say Congress should not use funding to affect a war. That is the complete opposite of what is said in Feingold's column.

Third Way supports the idea for a nonbinding congressional resolution condemning the escalation. But going further, with legislation barring the troop increase, would be a mistake, for both substantive and political reasons. First, we do not believe that Congress should use the imprecise mechanism of appropriations to dictate the management of an ongoing military conflict. There is simply no way of ensuring that funding restrictions would not compromise the safety of the troops already in the field, and it is generally a bad idea for Congress to be dictating the details of military strategy.

Third Way urges Congress not to use funding power to control war


And the Democratic Leadership Council under Harold Ford advises Congress to fund temporarily without deadlines. Useless also.

Short Leash

We've already endorsed the idea that Congress should follow-up the veto by putting the administration on a "short leash" -- providing a temporary extension of funding without withdrawal deadlines, but requiring the president to come back for additional funds with some sort of honest assessment of conditions in the country and a clear exit strategy for the United States.


These things might work under normal circumstances with normal people. I doubt Bush will cooperate. We do not have a normal person in charge of our military right now. We need to make sure the military understands the role of Congress so Bush can not manipulate them into thinking the "bad" Democrats are not supporting them. It is our job to stop his propaganda to them.

I find it amazing that the chairman of the DNC was told to take his cues from Congress and not try to set policy...but our congressional leaders take their cues from think tanks like this. They do not pay attention to what the people say. The decisions are made without our knowledge and without our input.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think these groups have been a huge influence..
in convincing everyone there is a real problem about using our constitutional powers of the purse. I never paid that much attention to that aspect, but they are very strong on this issue.

I found this at Daily Kos.

And just how does the DLC propagate this message? With a method we here at Daily Kos recognize as "concern trolling." Watch as the DLC's Will Marshall -- with no sense of irony -- tries to sell his version of What Dems Should Do on Iraq by appealing to the need to show Party Unity:

"Some Democrats would like to go further--by withholding funding for the additional troops. For a variety of reasons, however, this is a bridge too far. First, where Democrats (joined by some Republicans) would unite behind a resolution disapproving the Bush plan, many will be loath to cut off funding for troops that have already started deploying to Iraq. Why put the party's disunity on public display? "

Yes, why indeed? And while we're on the subject, we might as well ask why the DLC would aid and abet the Republican spin that Democrats are actually suggesting withholding funding for troops actually in the field. Every single Democratic proposal on the subject has taken pains to clearly deliniate between funding for troops yet to deploy and troops already on the ground. But -- golly gosh! -- Marshall neglects to point that out!


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/19/10046/1832

But notice the Third Way proposal above in the OP refers to not even defunding the surge or surges. I have some problems with a policy group urging so strongly that a constitutionally given power not be used at all.

Disclaimer: I am not eager to defund.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Oh, Will Marshall is a real gem-stated Gore "LOST" in 2000 because he abandoned the DLC.
So Gore "lost" because of decision to discard New Dems (ie DLC)?
"A key factor in that defeat was Gore's peculiar decision to discard the New Democrat formula that had worked so well in 1992 and 1996."

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=128&subsecID=187&contentID=3361

This was written by Will Marshall. Who is Will Marshall?

Will Marshall is one of the founders of the New Democrat movement, which aims to steer the US Democratic Party toward a more right-wing orientation. Since its founding in 1989, he has been president of the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Council. He recently served on the board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a committee chaired by Joe Lieberman and John McCain designed to build bipartisan support for the invasion of Iraq. Marshall also signed, at the outset of the war, a letter issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) expressing support for the invasion.
-snip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Marshall

THAT'S RIGHT, THE GUY WHO SAID GORE "LOST" BECAUSE OF HIS DECISION TO ABANDON THE NEW DEMOCRAT MOVEMENT (IE THE DLC) WAS A SIGNER OF PNAC!

Hey DLC-GORE WON IN 2000!

PLEASE RUN AL!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Excactomundo
And this is why I am pissed off at the Dem's right now.. The fake DLC Neocons in dem suits I already despise them like all other "conservatives"because of what they are. The other Dem's that do not get it that the democratic party has been infiltrated by neocons and sell democratic principles down a river really make me frustrated,and pissed off.So I say something about it.And here when I try to do this party loyalists who prize their loyalty even placing loyalty above the founding principles of the party they are so loyal to,frustrate the shit out of me.
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good stuff. Recommended.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Because some people even in the political circle have not yet been made to understand
who is honestly in power but sooner or later they will be forced to see. We have to remember every single dem has families they care about, careers they need in order to feed those familys and the obvious truth that the dem party has been infiltrated with traitors to thier so called chosen party...

I keep seeing posts lately from people saying they cannot understand why so and so does this or that when it should be pretty obvious why the going towards true justice prevailing is so slow.

Of course they hear the people but the real ones in power choose to ignore the voice of the people, I honestly feel the dems cannot fight alone, the people's voice needs to get louder, stronger, angrier and much more forceful that it has been.

How many citizens would actualy put thier jobs and income on the line, the safety of thier families to ensure justice prevails? They are counting that very few would and they are right so far.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. They even put in writing for the Dems NOT to use their power of the purse.
And I think some wonder where the power lies and why yesterday's bill happened.

I can see caution in not funding, but I can not see giving him a blank check for 4 months.

I just saw the news, that we are now going more after Sadr City. Now that area is home to 2 million. That is just nuts. I am sorry, but it is.

Is Sadr City the next Fallujah?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. I don't really understand your last line.
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. Damn DLC
Everyone needs to know that these vile, putrescent vermin are in control of the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. The pdf link in the op is now dead....here is a new one.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. Question: Don't the falangists use the phrase "third way?"
Really, I'm wondering because somehow that connection is stuck in my head.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. These individuals are just advocating different strategies as superior to others
Also with the view that some actions may be detrimental to other priorities, and, in some cases, to the stated goals of some strategies as well.

The way you've framed this is as if your own view and strategy for success is unquestionable and should be accepted without any reservations. But there are other strategies from folks who share the same goals as you.

Haven't you advocated against one action or another from Congress? What's the difference in that and in someone with a different view advocating against your course in favor of their own except that both have a different perspective.

Instead of casting these Democrats as some pernicious entity which threatens humanity, you should recognize and respect their right to differ and to advocate for and against those strategies they think would be harmful to goals which are usually the same.

Argue the ideas and use the levers of democracy to your best ability. But the demonization of folks in our party who happen to disagree on strategy needs to end.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. And it is just coincidence
that the Dems are following those policies. And Ford's use of the words "policy shop" for the 08 nominee was just rhetoric.

I don't think so.

I think it has been that trio doing policy so long that the party is not even aware of it, it just part of what it does.

Some ideas are good, some are not so good. Telling a party NOT to use the power it has constitutionally to end the war is not so good.

And I am not especially eager about defunding...just don't think it should be taken off the table when you have a naked emperor leading you into battle.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. maybe they agree with them?
or their constituents do
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well, I guess they surely do agree with them.
Because they agree with someone, and it is not the party's activists.

I am still smarting from the "sophistry" yesterday. I posted my feelings, but never heard back.

I was surprised, because that does not seem to be your style.

My point has always been that the party is in the grip of this trio..DLC/PPI/Third Way. No one acts like they believe it, until stuff like this happens.

I think I made my case fairly and well, and I used their own words. I wish we could agree. I wish you had not accused me of sophistry for caring about the 2 million in Sadr City.

Peace.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. "Argue the ideas and use the levers of democracy to your best ability"
That is what I just did. I argued the ideas. Please let us not go back to 2003 when they started the memos against the liberal fringe activists.

That was a painful time.

The difference between what I advocate in my activism, and what they advocate is that they have the ear of Congress and I don't.

You say I have framed it as though it is objectionable. You are right, I do find it objectionable. I really do.

Does this group not know that Congress was given the power of the purse for times of war when there was a commander in chief who needed to be reined in?

I can either speak out or not speak out.
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DemDem07 Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
14. Recommended
:kick:
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Terri S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. and recommended again.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
16. And yuo expected better?
Look folks third way was at one time code for fascsist.

Is it claer now?

Or will you bend over and take it again
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. I agree with Third Way's reasoning. Defunding may produce a
Edited on Sat May-26-07 02:46 PM by wienerdoggie
whole range of unintended and unpredictable consequences.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That is your right.
My fear is that Bush is going to unleash more hell on the world and we were supposed to stop him.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Third Way's stances on Iraq, and how they trained Democrats to talk of it.
From Alternet, a little more about the Third Way and Iraq

http://www.alternet.org/story/51840/?page=2

"Iraq: A short case study

Up to this point, I have been discussing mostly political theory, but where does Third Way political leadership and messaging lead, in fact? Let's look briefly at Third Way's wandering and ineffective path on Iraq to see where pandering to the center goes.

Third Way supported the War in Iraq (all history of this support has been wiped from its website); Third Way has continued to tout its association with Ken Pollack, who, among other things, wrote "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq," which was one of the major intellectual underpinnings for invading Iraq. With polls running against the war, Third Way moved with the polls, but slowly: In June, 2006 Third Way did training for the DCCC and advocated a "Tough and smart Iraq strategy -- one that protects our national security interests, calls for an exit based on events, not the calendar, and gives Iraq a real chance to succeed." At the time, George Bush was saying, "We will not put a date certain on when each stage of success will be reached -- because the timing of success depends upon meeting certain conditions."

Can anyone identify the differences in the Bush/Cheney and Third Way positions? I can't.

Ironically, the poll on national security released by Third Way last fall found that 30% of Democrats were unsure where Democrats stood on Iraq or which party would do a better job. Could the fact that Third Way at the time was training House members to espouse a position on Iraq that was indistinguishable from George Bush's have contributed to this voter confusion?"


Yes, that last point is quite good. The public and most Democrats can not tell the difference at times from the stances. This kind of training has hurt our party, but it continues. That is why we have little voice in our own party.

All the calls, all the emails to them do not matter at all because the strategy is already set.




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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. What has Howard Dean said about the DLC being the policy shop for the '08 candidate?
It like he is assuming that Hillary is automatically our nominee. What is another fix in for us voters? or is mr. Harold making assumptions?

I never read this before.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. He has been totally neutral.
Edited on Sat May-26-07 11:34 PM by madfloridian
I don't like that they told him not to speak out though. He has been very cautious, and it is unnerving in a way.

Ford appears to be the choice of the Carville/Rahm wing for DNC chair..
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Carville/Rahm Wing
is one I will not support. Carville is a traitor to the Democratic Party:

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)
By M.J. Rosenberg | bio

?On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

So what happened?

James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

Matalin does, advising Bush that "somebody in authority needed to get in touch with J. Kenneth Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State in Ohio who would be in charge of any challenge to the provisional votes." An SOS goes out to Blackwell.

The rest is history.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Mark my words. This party will disintegrate
if it doesn't shake these people from controlling the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-26-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I think I agree. We are not going forward.
:hi:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
28. The third way should be a third party.
They already are in practice. Why should they form an organization and take over the party without consent of the governed?
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ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Because they need the Lefties in much the same way the Republicans need the fundimentalists...
To get elected. (Hey, at least the Republicans are willing to throw the Fundy's a bone now and then.)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
29. I found these comments in an article from last year. 3 guesses who wrote it.
Yes, it is someone who gets attacked here a lot, also at Daily Kos, and everywhere else he posts. Let's see how much truth there is in these words...link later.

What really comes through is that in the Washington Beltway, presentation of the actual facts is immediately dismissed as unacceptably caustic "tone." Present facts showing that the Bush administration's WMD justifications for war were "lies" and by D.C. standards you are too strident. Help continue justifying the "stay-the-course" policy that has brought death and injury to thousands of American troops and by D.C. standards you are considered "reasonable." Prove that this lawmaker or that organization was marching to orders from its Big Money backers, call that behavior "corrupt," and by D.C. standards you are "too angry." Buy off votes, spread dishonest corporate propaganda, sellout working Americans' economic interests, and by D.C. standards you are a praiseworthy "centrist." Expose the corrupt forces within the Democratic Party that have sent it down to election loss after election loss after election loss, and by the DLC's standards you are someone who needs others to warn you "that there are a few lines in intra-party debate that should not be crossed." Viciously tear apart Democratic icons like Al Gore, Howard Dean and others in national newspapers and television interviews as the DLC made its name doing, and by D.C.'s standards you are supposedly engaging in a "respectful discussion about the Democratic Party's future."

I'm not going to change my tone, because I'm not going to play Washington's rhetorically acrobatic game - a game that more and more Americans know is a scam. As Rolling Stone noted in its recent article, Washington insiders like Ed Kilgore and the DLC get all hot and bothered by passion, outrage and most of all idealism. They are afraid of actual emotion, and the justifiable anger that Americans throughout the heartland feel right now at a government that has sold them out. They are similarly afraid of people who tell the blunt truth. Why? Because insiders in Washington aren't outraged and they don't want the truth out there - they are very comfortably enjoying the status quo. So they throw out superheated red herrings attacking George McGovern, attacking truthtellers, attacking the netroots - and above all else, attacking the very concept that ordinary people should have a say over a political process we are supposed to own. What they want, in short, is for politics to continue on as the exclusive property of the elite, whereby bloodless, money-drenched automatons in Congress obediently carry out the wishes of their corporate puppetmasters.

I see the world in exactly the opposite way - I think a little emotion is needed if we are to create a winning political movement, I think the outrage seething all over America is justified,I think ordinary people having a bigger say in politics is good, I think our country deserves more of the truth not less of it, and I think Democrats are on the verge of greatness if they embrace this reality. That's why I'm going to keep trying to do what I do for as long as I can with the hope that I don't burn out. Because I will admit - even after the victories we've had, some days it's hard to look at institutions like the DLC, like the GOP machine, like Big Money interests and see the light at the end of the tunnel.


And that was from last year. I guess this person is really seething this week. I know I am.

I am on anger overload, and it ain't going away.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
30. Third Way also supports doing away with our Second Amendment rights
Third Way, to put it succinctly, can bite me. I've had enough of this "do-nothing" approach for one lifetime.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kick because Sirota and Seder discussing this right now.
:kick:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-27-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. Then they must be wanting us to impeach and remove the whole Bush regime? That's the only other way
Edited on Sun May-27-07 04:35 PM by kenny blankenship
until Jan 2009. What, you say they also want impeachment "off the table"?

Then I am forced to conclude what they really want is for this imperial scheme in Iraq to continue until doomsday (or until the oil runs out, whichever comes first) If they want it to continue indefinitely there's no functional difference between that position and backing the imperial conquest of Iraq as a pretty good idea. They must want it to succeed--and if so, why stop with Iraq? Why not Iran while we're at it?

The war won't stop. The Army can't make it stop. It sure won't stop by itself. So to stop it will be "defunding the troops" or "announcing surrender in the central front of the War On Terror" in 2009 after Bush is (hopefully) gone, just like they claim it is now. Nothing will change.

Nothing will change if we listen to these 3rdDLCway crypto-Repukes.

That's what we have to change: stop listening to them.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-28-07 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. Sirota hits this issue today again..."The Innocent Bystander Fable"
http://www.workingassetsblog.com:80/2007/05/the_innocent_bystander_fable.html

""There are 232 Democrats in the House of Representatives," House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) tells us in yesterday's Washington Post. "There are 232 Democrats that believed that our policies in Iraq are failing."

On this Memorial Day these are comforting yet insulting words from a man who, according to the same Washington Post, less than four days ago "jury-rigged" a vote on the House floor to make sure the Iraq War continues - a vote that most of the 232 Democrats in the House supported (For background on this vote, see here - it was deliberately confusing). Hoyer's platitudes speak to what I will call the Innocent Bystander Fable - a myth that has become a self-reinforcing ethos in our nation's capital these days.

The Innocent Bystander Fable teaches that every politician in America except the President of the United States has absolutely no power at all to stop or even slow down the escalation of the war in Iraq - an escalation that is expected to deploy "more than 200,000 -- a record high number -- by the end of the year," according to Hearst Newspapers. This fable says that despite Congress's constitutional power - no, responsibility - to wield the power of the purse and despite its constitutional power to declare war or revoke declarations of war, Congress nonetheless can do absolutely, positively nothing other than dutifully hand over a blank check war spending bill to the White House. We are simply expected to take comfort in the supposed fact that "232 Democrats believe our policies in Iraq are failing" - but are also expected to believe that none of them can do anything about the situation and that they are all just innocent bystanders, powerless to do anything to address the worst national security crisis in contemporary American history."

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