Julian Assange would like to plunge the world into chaos and war.

[pnwmom]

He's no Daniel Ellsburg, trying to right a specific injustice. By his actions, he's attacking the concept of diplomacy itself.

Diplomacy can't take place in an ideal world of "transparency" and unless Assange is an idiot he knows that. And he doesn't care.

[EFerrari]

1. Daniel Ellsberg is a big fan of Wikileaks.

:)

[laughingliberal]

73. Indeed he is.

And I'd say he's the best judge of whether Assange is another Ellsberg.

[musette_sf]

87. + 1

The Corporate Reporting Media is no longer empowered to do its (former) job.

[H2O Man]

105. oh, deer!

(thanks!)

[EFerrari]

110. LOL.

I've FINALLY understood the attack on teachers.

They help people KNOW things and that is BAD.

:dunce:

[Ken Burch]

122. That's why the man said "facts are stupid things".

And why Ewan Maccoll, the brilliant Scottish folksinger and topical songwriter, wrote these lines(he was going after Margaret Thatcher in the song "Get Rid of it") :

"with regards to education
And the working population,
Remember friends that I was once a teacher
If the workers know their letters
And can recognize their 'betters',
then the rest is an unnecessary feature".

[Lucian]

111. Oh snap!

[bullwinkle428]

130. Reply #1 ==> Game, set, match!

:applause:

[polichick]

2. I think he's trying to shine a light on some things that are undermining democracy. nt

[pnwmom]

10. Diplomacy doesn't undermine democracy. n/t

[polichick]

14. "Diplomacy" doesn't cover every imperial action this country takes. nt

[laughingliberal]

75. Hear, hear! nt

[ejpoeta]

17. i would think that depends on who is doing the diplomacy and

what their goal is.

[EFerrari]

19. Diplomacy is a neutral tool that can indeed be used to undermine democracy

as Bush's coalition of the bribed and blackmailed demonstrated.

[Ken Burch]

120. When the U.S. government does it, it ISN'T diplomacy.

All OUR diplomats ever do is to tell other countries "you can surrender and give us what we want without a fight, or we can invade you".

No OTHER country's diplomats rely solely on ultimatums. Every other country negotiates and makes face-saving compromises. Only OUR leaders insist on always "having our way".

American diplomacy CAN'T be good for the common people. All it does it kill them.

It just means being like Henry Kissinger over and over again.

[cali]

152. your grasp of the history of diplomacy appears quite slim

ken, you're fundamentalist view on American Exceptionalism is astounding.

[Ken Burch]

156. We haven't had ANY American diplomats working to stop war or protect innocent civilians anywhere

at least since Carter forced Robert White to resign as U.S. ambassador to El Salvador.

You can't be in the U.S. diplomatic service anymore and care about human life. All the people there now are right-wing extremists who think their sole duty is to "open markets to U.S. goods" and to give our corporations a divine right to exploit the workers of the planet.

There isn't anyplace now where any of our diplomats are on the side of life and the people. And you know it.

I wish they were, but they aren't.

And even if a few were decent as individuals, that can't matter anymore, since they're chained to a U.S. foreign policy that is now eternally pro-greed and pro-slaughter(or "pro-Free Trade", as they call it, which is the same thing).

[sudopod]

148. Neville Chamberlain called.

He has a bridge in Czechoslovakia he'd like to sell you.

[treestar]

52. Such as?

[polichick]

93. Such as our relationship with those in the Middle East who encourage...

...the U.S. to fight more wars. Democracy requires citizens to know exactly why we're going to war.

I'm looking forward to a giant light on the banks too!

[galileoreloaded]

3. Uhhhhhhhhh......

[AndrewP]

4. This should be interesting......

:popcorn:

[leftstreet]

5. FFS! The world already IS in fucking chaos and war!

Jeez

[BzaDem]

13. If you think it's bad now

You have no idea. None. Just because you don't like the status quo doesn't mean it isn't exponentially better than it would be without diplomacy as an available means to resolve issues between countries.

[leftstreet]

24. I'm sorry, is this where I'm supposed to be fearing al Qaeda's naval forces?

"Resolve issues?" Hell! That's what the US has drones for!

[treestar]

55. find out what the State Department has been working on

Because you do not inform yourself does not mean that things are not happening. We had diplomacy of some sort even during the Bush Administration.

[EFerrari]

124. But you are against us finding out what the State Department has been working on, right?

Against these leaks?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

146. lol good one!

:)

[Ken Burch]

123. diplomacy doesn't HAVE to be secret.

And the real solution is for the people to stop governments from STARTING wars, because governments never want to avoid wars themselves. No leader of any state ever cares if she or he gets the population of his country killed in the name of her or his ego.
Nobody in the secret suites or the back rooms cares if we die. Certainly Obama and Hillary don't. They'll sacrifice us all in the name of looking "tough".

If you can rationalize war, it means that life has no meaning for you.

[SidDithers]

30. Says the poster sitting comfortably behind his computer...nt

Sid

[leftstreet]

36. tsk-tsk. Cranking on DUers for posting their opinions

Boy these leaks sure have a lot of people freaking out

:popcorn:

[BzaDem]

40. I'm not "cranking" on you for posting your opinion. I'm disagreeing with what your opinion is.

Nice try though.

[leftstreet]

42. um wait...are you also the poster 'SidDithers?'

I think you got confused there

:shrug:

[BzaDem]

60. I did get confused. My bad. n/t

[leftstreet]

79. ah, I see

I do that too

[Matariki]

45. Are you also SidDithers?

If not, why are you answering for him?

[BzaDem]

62. Because I got confused about the thread tree, as SD said. My bad. n/t

[Ken Burch]

128. Actually, we are ALL SidDithers....

We were just waiting for the right moment to tell you.

Sorry.

[Matariki]

163. I see. Are you now all going to break out in a musical dance routine?

My greatest nightmare will then be realized. ;-)

[Ken Burch]

170. It will be like that "Agent Smith" musical number I saw somewhere.

Well choreographed, yet terrifying.

[SidDithers]

44. "FFS! The world already IS in fucking chaos and war!"...

you're right. There's some serious freaking out going on.

Now, pardon me. I have to go defend the walls of my community compound from the hordes of marauders trying to steal our food and women.

Sid

[leftstreet]

48. Says the poster not sitting under an aerial bombing campaign n/t

[SidDithers]

57. Thanks for making my point...

The world, my part of it, your part of it, and many, many other parts of it are far from "chaos and war!"

Sid

[Ken Burch]

129. Not because of secret diplomacy or cynical backroom deals

And certainly not because of U.S. diplomacy, given that all U.S. diplmats do is to make ultimatums.

It would be different if our leaders ever did actual negotiations and compromise, like the leaders in all OTHER countries did.

[Mimosa]

72. What! Sid posted something other than 'Un-Rec'!

The world IS now officially in chaos, not to mention confusion and war!! :lol:

[Flubadubya]

145. ...

:evilgrin:

[laughingliberal]

92. You have food? Well, no wonder you are unaware of the chaos. nt

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

41. So? I'm arguing for a policy (secrecy in diplomacy) that prevents MORE war. n/t

[SidDithers]

46. I think you've lost track of the thread tree...nt

Sid

[timo]

50. drones never

kill the innocent, only terrorists, Obama would NEVER send drones out if they killed innocent folk........oh wait he....

[laughingliberal]

91. Yeah. Kind of easy to spot the protected and oblivious, these days. nt

[Scruffy1]

98. Thank you for being sane

As a matter of fact we've been in a state of war all of my life and I was born in 1949. I remember my gather coming home from Korea-his second war-and not even knowing him, Being afraid of the stranger in uniform. Right from there to the great cold war when I used to think every plane at night was a Russian bomber and they used to ship missiles
on the railroad tracks I played on by my house. And then Vietnam where we were supposed to get our ass blown off without asking questions, especially WHY? Before long it was central America, Libya, Iraq, Lebanon and then on to Iraq. Were still fucking there. This war has been going on for about twenty years and there is one thing politicians know the dipshits of America will always support a war because its all they know. In danger of losing an election? Just drop some god dam bombs. It worked for Reagan, and it worked for Bush and Jimmy Carter lost an election because he wouldn't start another useless war. Walter Mondale once told me he was proud of keeping the USA
out of war even though it might have cost an election.

If this poster is a Democrat you can see how truly sick this country has become.

[Renew Deal]

155. Not really

[eShirl]

6. Yes, and I can hear him cackling right now from the safety of his evil lair.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[DJ13]

7. The next up for a doc leak is a big financial institution

Lets wait on that before getting too excited.

[pnwmom]

12. I'm responding to the leak of thousands of diplomatic cables.

The bank leak has nothing to do with that.

[DJ13]

21. Yes, but a successful attack on Wiki now precludes further info from release

[Ken Burch]

131. We had a right to know what was in those cables

Most of what was said in them was said by cynical hacks who never try to keep us out of wars or stop the ones they get us into.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

137. nope, you had 'no' right to know what was in all those cables

You might think you have, you might wish you have, but that does not grant you the right to the information.

The vast amount of the information only helps the state department avoid pitfalls and such when they try to work with other people(due to knowing how the leaders in different countries tends to act et al).

That information has no value at all for you and can be insulting to the leaders of the country if the view of the leaders is somewhat negative(which hurts diplomacy if made public) which is one of the most basic reasons the 'candid' views of the leaders were considered classified.

Now those few cables that DID involve information about criminal activites, corruption or crimes i'm overjoyed Wilileaks released since that information i *DO* think the public have a right to know.

[asdjrocky]

8. Oh, sure.

Our "leaders" know best and we should let them make decisions in the dark without transparency.

[treestar]

58. To the degree it is needed, of course.

That's what we elect them for. How could they be effective if everything had to be public? It would be gridlock. There's always someone to disagree about how things should be done.

[ingac70]

9. .....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11879951

[rko_24550]

173. ....

Off yourself please. preferably by swallowing cyanide

[KansDem]

Yeah, he hates us for our freedoms...

:eyes:

[polichick]

15. LOL

[Mimosa]

38. ^ LOL! I think you nailed it, KansDem! ^ n/t

[laughingliberal]

94. That was great! Thanks. nt

[ejpoeta]

11. or perhaps he just wants us to know what is being done in our name.

[pnwmom]

22. If we know, then everyone on the other side knows, our enemies

as well as our friends. Diplomacy cannot be conducted in that framework.

[ejpoeta]

56. didn't sound like diplomacy as much as spying.

[superduperfarleft]

16. No, I think you're thinking of Professor Chaos.

[EFerrari]

23. LOL

:rofl:

[notesdev]

18. It's secrecy he's attacking

And as we can see the secrecy has been covering up some very nasty stuff that we all deserved to know about.

[pnwmom]

27. And secrecy is often necessary to protect our allies

within hostile countries.

[notesdev]

34. It's also necessary

in order to do things that if anyone knew about there would be hell to pay.

Secrecy definitely needs to be sharply limited in a country that depends on an informed public to self-govern.

[laughingliberal]

96. I'm willing to bet the founders had that in mind when they gave us that 1st amendment thing. nt

[leveymg]

77. Our "allies" are often the most dangerous and inimical to our interests.

"Hostile countries" know where they stand, and are usually more predictable and less likely spring rude surprises.

[pnwmom]

141. The world doesn't divide up that neatly.

We have individual allies WITHIN hostile countries -- people we need to protect, like Valerie Plame and her network of associates. Releasing secret data puts all of THEM at risk.

[LaurenG]

20. I disagree

We aren't plunging into chaos and war at least not any new chaos and war.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

25. Too late.

America beat him to it.

:shrug:

[n2doc]

28. +1000 n/t

[leftstreet]

33. +1

[Lint Head]

26. If the so called diplomacy is nothing more than manipulated lies it

should be exposed. This is the only way the people can make informed decisions in a world controlled by corporate propaganda.

[pnwmom]

32. Our diplomats don't only work with diplomats from other

open democracies. They work with people from all kinds of countries, and they work with people both openly and behind the scenes. Forcing them to do all their work openly means some people in hostile countries wouldn't even be able to talk to them. We'd be cutting the diplomats off at their knees.

[Individualist]

29. Unrec for right wing talking points.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. yes. i am sure that is exactly his intent. i know this due to my psychic abilities

of analyzing intent despite proof and statements to the contrary

[JVS]

47. He also doesn't put the seat down!

I know. I have amazing powers of observation!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Eeek!! If the proles find out what's going on it will be the end of civiliation and apple pie!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MineralMan]

37. Assange is a Prankster.

He enjoys what he's doing. Perhaps a little too much. Chaos and war is interesting, especially from Iceland.

[EFerrari]

43. We can't having people enjoying things. It's unAmerican. n/t

[MineralMan]

95. Uh-huh. Sociopaths also often enjoy their

activities, too. You aren't hearing what I'm saying.

[EFerrari]

107. I'm reading precisely what you're saying. Enjoying things too much

may be a sign of sociopathy.

lol

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

115. See!! See!! You're laughing!! Grim up, you Sociopath!!

[MineralMan]

117. You're not reading very well, then.

I won't belabor my point with you. It's a waste of my time. See ya.

[EFerrari]

121. There is nothing wrong with my reading.

Psychologists do not screen for sociopathy by measuring enjoyment.

[SlimJimmy]

169. Federal Law would call him something else ...

18 USC 793 - Sec. 793. Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

... (e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;

http://vlex.com/vid/gathering-transmitting-losing-defense-19190934#ixzz16tI8Wtqm

[SidDithers]

39. K&R for truth...nt

Sid

[Gold Metal Flake]

161. Unrec...nt

[treestar]

49. Just trying to stir things up

Nothing will happen anyway. Some mild embarrassment maybe.

[gulliver]

51. Yup. Some forget confidentiality is fundamental to trust.

Assange isn't doing anything special.

[Hissyspit]

67. Actually, it's groundbreaking.

He is forcing the world's governments to recognize the new evolved realities. If he were not doing it, it would happen somehow in another way, anyway, but the fact is is that he IS doing it (along with other people).

There will be pushback, sort of like the RIAA pushing back against Napster, and WikiLeaks will evolve, but this IS different.

Say it isn't anything special is rationalization. Yes, confidentiality is fundamental to trust. Apparently, this stuff wasn't all that confidential.

And frankly, I'm tired of people defending war criminals and heinous acts.

http://zunguzungu.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/julian-assange-and-the-computer-conspiracy-“to-destroy-this-invisible-government”/#

[gulliver]

106. So was "Burn a Koran Day"

Anyone could do what Assange has done. The leaker could have simply dumped the data onto BitTorrent or Freenet and informed the world's media outlets. I agree we are seeing an "evolved reality" as you say, but it may be more like an invasive species, a privacy piranha. I see a lot of opportunity for confidentiality protection going forward.

No one is defending "war criminals and heinous acts." That argument is just a word shift of the argument that Republicans make for torture.

The "leakers" may not even be leakers. They may be the CIA or a foreign government. They may be selectively information, because they have an axe to grind.

[Hissyspit]

126. "Burn A Koran" Day a specious, sophistic comparision.

No, it's not just like Bittorrent or Freenet and the leaker and others didn't do that.

Yes, anyone can use WikiLeaks. There is a authentication process, the character of which I don't know, but it seems to work. There have been no major authenticity scandals. Doesn't mean there won't be, but that,'s beside the original point.

I teach art. The age-old defensive reaction: "Well, I could have done that!" Response: "First off, prove you could have. Second, no, not necessarily. Thirdly, but you didn't, did you?"

[Hissyspit]

144. WikiLeaks is gamechanger. nt

[EFerrari]

70. Confidentially is fundamental to a lot of things -- fraud, blackmail, misdirection, theft. n/t

[ljm2002]

89. "confidentiality is fundamental to trust"...

...conversely, trust is fundamental to confidentiality: in other words, if you don't want people of conscience to leak your dirty tricks and lies, then stop already with the dirty tricks and lies.

Just a reminder: Julian Assange did not leak the documents, that was done by a person with access to the documents in the first place. As with Assange, we cannot know the true motives of that person or persons, but seeing as how they have nothing to gain I assume they are the typical motives of whistle blowers, namely to expose lies, corruption and/or hypocrisy.

Assange has built on the latest technology to provide a platform for whistle blowers that affords them some anonymity. Apparently Wikileaks takes seriously its obligation to vet the documents they receive. So far, the Wikileaks documents have proven out as far as being real -- we know this because neither the U.S. government nor any other target has denounced them as false, just as something that should not be out there.

Do the diplomatic cables put our diplomacy at risk? Yes, in some ways. However, they also shine a light on the world of realpolitik. Personally I am glad they are being published, the elites of the world are putting the screws to the rest of us and they deserve to be exposed in all their double dealing glory.

Neither Wikileaks nor any news organization is responsible for the consequences of publishing verified information in their possession. They can of course make choices, and I have no doubt that they are going over the information to avoid obvious harm. Remember, there are other news organizations involved in publishing these leaks. Also, remember that Wikileaks offered to let the State Department have first crack at redacting these documents. They declined. So their howls of potential harm ring a bit hollow to this observer.

[TexasObserver]

53. Hyperbolious!

Come in off the ledge. It's not the end of the world.

None of the disclosures are news. The Chinese think the North Koreans are brats. Like that's a news flash. Muslim leaders hate Israel. Like that's another news flash.

It is astonishing that so many citizens take up the memes manufactured by those who like to keep government secret.

[Subdivisions]

54. Oh the drama! n/t

[Hissyspit]

59. Eh, no.

Silly OP.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. Yes. But, don't tell anyone, it will cause chaos and war.

Not to mention causing mother's mild to sour.

[Hissyspit]

109. I would like to tell the dead victims of the past ten years of chaos and war.

But they are dead.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. Yep. And, the people who arranged for their deaths want to keep it a secret.

So they can do it again..and again..and again, and assure us that it's for our own good.

[Cleita]

61. Really? And your authority for that is.......?

I'm looking for historical incidents where diplomacy conducted in an world of transparency was a failure. Perhaps it's never been tried and since cloak and dagger secrecy seems not to have worked very well over the history of mankind, perhaps the time has come for us "little people" to be in on the decisions that determine how we want our world run. In order to do that we need to be informed so we can make the right decisions for our future.

[Better Believe It]

63. I think the rulers are doing a mighty fine job of that without his "help".

[librechik]

64. you are wrong and it sickens me to hear these lame excuses for your vitriol

Assange has harmed no one and nothing.

[laughingliberal]

99. What? You don't buy the 1st amendment means we have a right to know what they decide we should know?

The OP seems to think that freedom of the press thing is just a damned piece of paper.

[librechik]

140. nope, I don't buy it--& I started to notice who does

Who hates wikileaks? Sarah Palin, Bill Kristol, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck and more like them. That's all I need to figure out which side I'm on. If they're against it, I'm for it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

66. LOL

[ProudDad]

68. Meaningless flame bait...

But you go ahead and have fun with it... :rofl:

[leveymg]

69. From what we've seen so far, this release doesn't change much at all.

It merely confirms what many of us at DU knew all along. Diplomacy is just the nicely turned holster that covers the gun. Those involved are no more or less cynical or Machiavellian than any of their contemporaries in the intelligence, military and business worlds. They all work together. Many are the same people wearing different hats. Surprised by that?

The OP's rhetoric is hysterical and naive.

[EFerrari]

74. It has been interesting to see some facts confirmed

that we worked out or got in some other way. The attempted isolation of Chavez, our government's certain knowledge of the illegality of Zelaya's ouster almost immediately, their hatred of democracy, their careless exercise of privilege, lol.

[leveymg]

84. Even the Top Secret cables would tell us little that we haven't already figured out.

It's not really difficult for decent people to understand the criminal and corrupt, but they'll never "get" us.

Maybe, that's why the truth (I'm not afraid of that concept) usually comes out in the end. Reasons to be cheerful, my friend.

[EFerrari]

101. Definitely.

The process reminds me of a psychoanalytic term for things you know but just haven't processed in thought yet, "the unthought known". I think this shaking out will be very good us. :)

[leveymg]

116. Intuition is the fastest, surest form of logic. We grasp certain things almost before they happen,

because on some level they remind us of things seen before in a different context. Deja vu is a form of that, as is the "oceanic feeling" that Jung talked about when one is connected to what he called the "collective unconsciousness." Others have called it the "muse", Godhead, Sattva (essence).

A good analyst "feels" more than thinks through problems, like a good musician or chess player. Also like a good musician or chess player, it's the opponent's (or partner's) deceptions and omissions that stand out, along with irregularities in her normal style of play. But, it takes a lifetime of preparation to see those in stark relief just below the surface of carefully constructed lies. Lies are fractal. They have a repeating structure, from the biggest to the smallest, that almost always give them away.

Compartmentalization is also the enemy of good intelligence. One needs to connect the dots across different disciplines -- stepping carefully over the little academic warrens where specialists in cubicles toil threading needles with angels -- to get an accurate picture. But, first and foremost, it has to "feel" right. If it doesn't, walk it backwards until you find out why.

So, you see, the "un-thought known" is just what you've known all along.

[laughingliberal]

71. Nice try. Best thing about Julian: watching authoritarian heads explode.

I'm going to have to stock up :popcorn: for his release about the bank.

[EFerrari]

76. I'm enjoying that part, too.

lol

[NorthCarolina]

103. +1

[joeybee12]

78. news flash! The world IS in chaos and war...knu

[Solly Mack]

80. and he's the anti-christ

If you have to ask...

[laughingliberal]

86. ROFL!! That was great! nt

[Heidi]

81. How do you happen to know his intent? (nt)

[Wednesdays]

82. Wait...what? You talked to Assange recently?

Tell us more about what he thinks. Inquiring minds want to know!

[Safetykitten]

83. Yikes, and I people think I am out there.

[flvegan]

85. He turned me into a NEWT!

[laughingliberal]

88. "A newt???" "Well, I got better." Love it! nt

[Hissyspit]

108. LOL

No, really. I'm LOL. :D

[beforeyoureyes]

90. Truth is the answer...we are already a world in chaos and war

He is a hero, in my book.

Expose the lie.

[Bobbie Jo]

104. Oh yes....expose the lie, indeed. nt

[Bodhi BloodWave]

139. Is truth always the answer, never secrecy? n/t

[mike_c]

97. amazing how quickly the authoritarian RW cockroaches scurry when the light comes on...

...isn't it?

[laughingliberal]

100. It's the most fun I've had since 'law and order' Nixon was run out of office. nt

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

159. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you. n/t

[DainBramaged]

102. Meh...........

:puke:

[Lucian]

113. I think he's doing the right thing.

The world didn't end and the sky didn't fall on Sunday when the documents were released.

[Ken Burch]

118. Secret diplomacy cannot have progressive or positive results for the vast majority of the world

All secrecy does is serve the war machine. It can't save peoples lives and it can't ever free us from war.

TRANSPARENCY NOW!

TRUTH NOW!

SECRECY IS THE ENEMY OF LIFE!

[SnakeEyes]

119. Will I believe one must be nuanced

with such a perspective, I believe the OP has a point regarding diplomacy and transparency.

For example, I don't see why we needed to know that Israel and the UAE had a good and personal relationship between foreign ministers despite no official ties between the two countries. This is something that needs to stay private as they could not do so in public given the situation in the region.

[Ken Burch]

127. God, I hate the word "nuance".

It's basically code for "let's doubletalk and keep the killing going as long as the investors keep making money off of it". That's all nuance actually means. It has no progressive connotations and certainly no pro-peace connotations.

[malaise]

125. But but but

We're already facing war and chaos.

[Swamp Rat]

132. Shooting the messenger is an ancient ritual, oft seen at the end of empire.

[whatchamacallit]

133. Um... the world is chaos and war already

Go Julian!

[krabigirl]

134. Lol, like we already aren't in a perpetual state of war?

[Igel]

135. Nope.

He focuses on short-term process and goals and not long-term outcomes. It's not that he wants war or doesn't want war; he'd say he's firmly opposed to it, I'd guess. He just doesn't see himself as responsible for much of anything that he doesn't like, and uniquely responsible for things that he does like.

As one person said, he doesn't embarrass people: He just brings to light things they said or did and lets them "embarrass themselves." Then again, very seldom is anybody embarrassed (in that sense) by things they didn't do, and seldom are embarrassed by things nobody knows about. In fact, the commonly accepted definition of the transitive verb has to be altered to exculpate Assange from the charge of embarrassing people.

Since he wouldn't be the direct, hands-on initiator of the war, he'd say that he's not responsible. It's a kind of mental trick that works well: You start with the act and find the first person in the link of causality that you don't like *or* the most important/wealthiest and promptly place all the responsibility on them. Even if you signed the order declaring war, Congress shouldn't have passed it; the act triggering the introduction of the bill into Congress shouldn't have happened; whatever caused that act, trained the actor, provided support and assistance to the actor, failed to stop the act or somehow failed to understand the true consequences of the statement that provided the trigger for the act is *really* the guilty party and everybody else was forced to do what they later did so they can't be held responsible.

It works well in the other direction, too: You find something that went horribly wrong but for which it appears your team is also just as guilty as the "bad" team, and so you beat the bushes to find somebody on your side who actually offered the right solution--albeit 15 years before in a caveat to a footnote on page 23 of a paper published in a non-peer reviewed "working papers" volume composed chiefly of grad students' work. Or which was the direct implication of something he said during a speech to the Rotary Club in Riverside 5 years before and which you corrected as a speech error a few seconds later. It doesn't matter if it only works if quote it out of context. Then you can say that people *did* know and predict the mistake, and within 10 minutes you can be claiming that the whole world knew except your evil, malicious enemy, who acted against the best counsel as cited in the world's most authoritative sources.

Humans. It's surprising sometimes that slime doesn't initiate a class action suit against us for defamation when we call one another slime.

[Hissyspit]

150. He's told us a lot of what he thinks and what he's doing.

Some direct quotes here and and one guy's interpretation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9657585

[Hissyspit]

151. He's told us a lot of what he thinks and what he's doing.

Some direct quotes here and and one guy's interpretation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9657585

[swilton]

136. I disagree

I don't know Assange personally, nor do I know Ellsburg, although I've met the latter...

What I think is happening is that Assange believes in a higher power if you will of morality. Some argue that moral authority contributes to a state's power by making its acts (i.e., foreign policy) legitimate. Assange and the Wikileaks project seeks attack the illegitimate acts of the US (illegal wars, torture, etc., etc.) by holding the US morally accountable to world public opinion.

[mudplanet]

138. Let's attack the messenger. Pay no attention to what we've discovered about

our government.

As for "diplomacy" I think this quote from another post by a DU member pretty well sums it up:

Leon Trotsky, then People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs, explained the principles underlying the exposure of these state secrets. “Secret diplomacy,” he wrote, “is a necessary tool for a propertied minority, which is compelled to deceive the majority in order to subject it to its interests. Imperialism, with its dark plans of conquest and its robber alliances and deals, developed the system of secret diplomacy to the highest level. The struggle against imperialism, which is exhausting and destroying the peoples of Europe, is at the same time a struggle against capitalist diplomacy, which has cause enough to fear the light of day.”

Ninety-three years later, these words stand the test of time. Underlying the outraged denunciations of the Obama administration and the Republicans over WikiLeaks’ undermining of US “national security” is the anger of a ruling financial aristocracy that must pursue its own predatory and reactionary interests in secret because they are opposed to the needs and aspirations of working people in the US and around the world.

[Canuckistanian]

142. Julian Assange kicked my puppy

Then he egged my house.

He must be destroyed.

[JVS]

154. He raped me.

Oh wait, that one's been done.

[Catherina]

158. He raped my puppy! n/t

[Frisbee]

143. Seems we've been doing a pretty good job of that without him. n/t

[sudopod]

147. Have you ever herped so much

that you derped?

[Poll_Blind]

149. Heh heh while he may LIKE to plunge the world into chaos and war, WHO has ACTUALLY DONE IT?

+

PB

[myrna minx]

153. LOL. n/t

[Angry Dragon]

157. The world is already in chaos and war!!

Perhaps if officials did not hide everything, think they are above the law,
then the people would not care about what those officials think about foreign officials.
I, myself, am tired that anything this country wants to hide comes under national security.
They kidnap a foreign national and torture him, too bad it was the wrong guy, and
this comes under national security. Get real

[mix]

160. You stole my line. nt

[rurallib]

162. I say leave it to the professionals

they have gotten us into plenty of wars.
maybe, just maybe Assange is trying to stop wars?

[MadHound]

165. I must say, your increasingly over the top accusations and posts concerning Assange

Have provided me with much amusement, truly. Such hyperbolic screeds are laughable on their face, and the fact that you continue to post them only discredits yourself and those who align with your view.

But keep up the good work, we all need a good laugh in these tough times.

[TheWatcher]

166. "I don't WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH! STOP INTERFERING WITH MY BUBBLE! STOOOOP IT!!!!"

Go Watch some Reality TV.

You'll be right as rain in five minutes.

Plenty of Kardashians to Keep Up With.

[northernlights]

167. the world is already in chaos and war

And he is attacking the current actions of "diplomacy." It is diplomacy on behalf of the shadow government. He is seeking to bring down the world's shadow government, he has formulated a plan to do so, he is executing his plan and so far, it is working exactly as...well...planned. Including the government reactions to his leaks.

[Forkboy]

168. LOL...this thread should have ended with response #1.

[EFerrari]

171. This is what my family went through trying to talk me out of

an abusive marriage.

I need to apologize to them.

lol

[Forkboy]

172. Every now and then family does indeed know best.

:)