Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Any tips on adopting a dog from the local humane society?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Perfect Ten Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:38 PM
Original message
Any tips on adopting a dog from the local humane society?
I had a mini aussie puppy which turned out to be too much for our family and he now lives on a horse farm. So now I'm looking for a adult house trained dog which is a little more laid back. You guys have any tips before I go look tomorrow?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Zephie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ask to walk the dog you pick
First, Take it for a stroll around the humane society building to see how it acts on a leash, second ask if theres an off leash area where you can see how the dog responds to verbal commands such as come and stay. Also ask to see its response to a cat: even if you don't own a cat you will want to make sure it isn't cat aggressive in case it escapes from your home and runs into a neighborhood kitty. The Humane Society here will do that if you ask so I have to guess that most will.

Good luck, and congrats on your "new arrival"! Everyone needs pets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Good ideas.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've learned (the hard way) to describe your family's lifestyle to shelter staff -
daily schedule, house size, yard?, activity level, previous pet experience, etc. and take it from there. Good shelter staff will try and match you to a good pet, not the other way around. Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. what a coincidence!
I had a red heeler puppy for awhile and he was too much for my household too (very hyper and I took two bad falls while trying to deal with him and had no choice but to give him up). :( Luckily I found him another home after not too long as he was very cute, just too much. After that, I gave up on adopting another dog and opted for a third cat instead.

I'd suggest telling the local humane society (and/or animal rescue) what type of dog you are looking for and what sort of household you have.

They are good at matching people up with pets I've found.

Best of luck and I hope you find a new friend soon!

:dem:

P.S. Welcome to the DU btw! :D

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. I can share my experience with dogs, if it helps.
First of all, use some time today to look up what breed, size, energy level, temperament dog would suit you.

I found this site very helpful:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/search.htm

Secondly, be aware that a GROWN dog may or may not have some bad habits, zero training, etc.
I personally prefer to start with puppies I can train, but many others have found a grown dog that works for them.

This might help once you get to the shelter:



1. As you enter the shelter, get a reading on the attitude of staff and volunteers. Are you greeted warmly and treated well? If you are asked to fill out a questionnaire, are the interviewers genuinely interested in who you are and helping you find the right dog, or are you grilled like a criminal? Any concerns about your answers should be used to help educate, not condemn you. If you feel like you are getting the thumbscrews and third-degree, leave. It would be almost impossible to concentrate on your task in an environment like this.
2. When you enter the kennels, make a quick pass through without stopping to schmooze the dogs. Pen and paper in hand, make note of any dogs that stand out for you. Ideally, you might find four or five who do.
3. On your second pass-through, stop and visit with each of the dogs you noted. Put your hand up to the kennel wire or bars. The dog should readily come up to visit you and sniff your hand. Remember, these dogs are socially deprived, and should be seeking your attention. When a candidate sniffs your hand, tell him he's a good dog, and move your hand back and forth, slowly, several times, about five inches each way. A social dog will follow your hand. Remember, you want a social dog a well-socialized, outgoing, and friendly dog is the least liable to be aggressive. If the dog jumps at your faces, barks at you, lunges or, alternatively clings to or retreats to the back of the kennel, cross him off your list and move on to the next dog.
4. When you have identified the dogs on your list who are very social, take them out of their kennels one at a time, to a quiet room if possible. (Not all shelters can provide this luxury. Do the best you can find a relatively quiet corner somewhere.) Stand with the dog for five minutes, and totally ignore him. The dog should look at you in a warm way, and try to worm his way into your affections leaning on you, nudging, licking, trying to cuddle. Jumping up is okay if it is done as attention-seeking, not in an attempt to bowl you off your feet as he bounces away from you. If an employee is with you and the dog is seeking attention from the employee, that's okay it just means the dog has already formed a bond with that person. If in five minutes the dog shows little or no interest in you or in other humans who are with you, put him back. He is not a good candidate.
5. If he is very social, pet him slowly and gently down his back. He should stand still and enjoy this, or lean into you, seeking more contact. If he shakes you off after you've touched him ('Yuck, people cooties!) or moves or lunges away from your touch, he's telling you he doesn't like being petted, or being around you. This dog is at risk for being aggressive anytime people touch him in a way that offends him. Put him back.
6. If he passes the petting test, ask a shelter staff member if you can feed him a meal a small bowl of kibble, or a handful of biscuits that you brought with you. You want to test him for resource guarding another behavior that puts him at high risk for biting. Put a bowl of food or pile of treats on the floor, enough that it will take him about 45 seconds to finish it. Now (BE CAREFUL!) talk to him, then pet him gently on the back. (Do not try to take the food away!) You want him to wag his tail, wag his tail harder, or even stop and look at you as if to say, 'Hi! I'm eating right now, I'll be back with you shortly. He may even stop eating and prefer to be with you. However, if he stiffens, blocks you with his body, glares at you, lowers his head into the dish, growls, or tries to move the food away from you, he is a resource guarder, and not a good adoption choice.
7. If he passes the first food test, up the ante. Ask the shelter staff if you can give him a chew hoof, pig ear, rawhide, or some other very valuable object. Again, you want to see if he is cooperative or competitive with this resource. Slowly move toward him and look for any of the guarding signs described in the previous step. If you see them, stop the test. If not, slowly reach for the object from a distance of at least two feet, then jerk your hand back. Repeat this step three times. You are looking for a dog who is relaxed about your approach. If you see any signs of guarding, don't adopt. Have the staff person retrieve the valuable object and put the dog away.
8. If the dog is still with you, your next step is to pet him all over. He should actively enjoy being petted, perhaps wag his tail, even lick you. He should not mouth you, even gently. If he does, put him away. Mouthiness, even done gently, is a sign of resistance, and may escalate to a bite if someone, such as a child, ignores the sign and keeps on petting or touching.
9. Now take out a toy (that you brought with you for this purpose, or one that the shelter provides, if they prefer) and see if he will play some sort of game with you: fetch, tug-o-war, or chase. Play the game for three to four minutes enough to get him excited and aroused. Then abruptly stop the play, and put the toy up, preferably on a shelf where he can see it. Take note of how long it takes him to disengage from playing and return to you to settle and socialize, perhaps sit or lie down next to you. Ideally, he will do this within two minutes. If he is still aroused after five minutes, put him away. This is the kind of energy level that the average dog household is not equipped to deal with. (If, on the other hand, you are looking for the next World Frisbee or Agility Champion, he might be a candidate.)
10. Take the dog for a walk on leash, outside if possible. Don't worry if he pulls, or is very distracted these are behaviors that are normal for shelter dogs, and can be retrained. Do watch for aggressive behavior toward other dogs or people while he is on leash. If you see any, put him away and cross him off your list.
11. If this dog is still on your list when your walk is done, have a staff person put him back in his kennel, then watch him as other strangers pass by, especially children, big men, and anyone who moves or dresses oddly. Avoid a dog who barks or lunges at anyone who walks by this is a sign of inadequate socialization. If your dog will be around children, look for a dog who wants to greet passing children first. A dog who will live with children must worship little humans, not just tolerate them.
12. If you still have one or more candidates in the running, ask the shelter staff if you can put them on temporary hold while you make arrangements to return with your kids and spouse (if you have them) and trainer. You may also want to bring your current dog, if you have one, so your trainer can help with the first introduction. Shelter staff may tell you that they can't put a dog on hold, because if someone else wants to adopt in the meantime and you don't return for some reason, he might miss out on his best chance for a home. This is reasonable. However, they should be willing to note that you are interested on the dog's paperwork, and give you a reasonable amount of time to return, so the dog isn't selected for euthanasia before you can get back with your crew in tow. When you do return, your trainer will be able to help you make an educated final decision about which of the dogs on your short list is the best choice for a long relationship with your family.


Good luck!!!! Let us know if you find a good match for you.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. We've adopted two shelter dogs
both of whom ignored us during the private visit time.

One of them is SO sweet, beautifully trained, and a loving dog.

The other one is also loving, but she came to us TOTALLY untrained (not even sit!), she had clearly never spent time in a house before, and she's still got some issues. It took her quite a while to "come out of her shell" at our house. Her biggest problem is that she HATES dog #1. :(

You can't always tell what you're getting at the shelter. (Which isn't to discourage people from adopting from the shelter, just don't assume you know what's up from meeting a dog there.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Welcome to DU!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dennis Donovan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. While I admire and commend you for adopting a dog from a shelter...
Edited on Sun Nov-28-10 01:55 PM by Dennis Donovan
...how much time did you spend with the previous puppy? The fact that you gave him up after making a committment to him doesn't bode well.:shrug:

I've had several "dogs from hell" (including my present Schnoodle, Logan) and have done what it takes to assimilate them to my home and lifestyle. I made a commitment when I adopted each of them and followed thru.

Edited to add a pic of Logan:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. The shelter will NOT look upon that favorably, either--and rightly so. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elana i am Donating Member (626 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. lower energy dogs tend to be kinda big
is big ok? if it is, then mastiffs, greyhounds (i can vouch for greyhounds because i have a friend who rescues them. total couch potatoes!), bernese mountain dogs and great pyrenees tend to be couch potatoes. medium ones would be english bulldogs and basset hounds. the small couch potatoes are french bulldogs, pekingese, pomeranians and supposedly chihuahuas. i kind of doubt chihuahuas though, because my friend has one and she's a rambunctious little terror.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I agree.
I would add to avoid labs and springer spaniels because they can jump a 6 ft. fence without trying. Hunting dogs tend to want to hunt. Yorkies are cute but the ones I saw had a very high energy level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. You can also go to a local rescue organization
I volunteer for a lab rescue, and we try to get the dogs into a foster situation. That lets you know a little more about how the dog is around the home. There are some all breed rescues, and breed rescues. I currently have a 4 month old foster puppy, who seems to be house trained so far, but he has a ton of puppy energy. Many of the rescue dogs come from the shelter when their time is up and they don't get adopted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dogs in shelters are stressed
and behave differently than they will outside the shelter. Ask to walk the dog and/or if they have a place where you can play with the dog off-leash.

Don't expect a perfect dog - if that's what you're looking for, go to a breeder and pay them to train a puppy for you. But shelter/rescue dogs seem to understand they've been rescued and will become the most loyal companion you'll ever find. Expect to put in a little extra effort realizing the pay-off will so be worth it.

Be honest with the shelter staff about your lifestyle. If you're couch potatoes, don't pretend you go hiking every weekend because you'll be matched with a dog that wants that and you'll end up with another mismatch.

Get to know the breeds - some dogs by genetics are more active than others. Shelters are often short staffed and may not be equipped to help find the right dog for you. If you know the breeds, you can save them the trouble - or you can look to breed-specific rescue groups.

Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. You've gotten great advice here. I just want to add.....be sure. Be sure you and your
family really want a dog and that the dog you adopt is right for you. If you have kids, have the kids help make the decision. You should all want THE dog, the one that your family wants to love forever.

Please be sure -- I have had mostly rescues. The two I have now I got in different ways. One was given away much like you did your aussie -- she was too much for the family and was given up at 5-months-old. The other came later -- he'd been abused & neglected. He still has remnants of the fear aggression he developed thanks to the pieces of shit who had him before me. He's not for the feint of heart -- it's been work to get him to accept people more. He's still wary of strangers but, thankfully, strangers now become friends pretty quickly and then he's the most loving, cuddly dog in the world!

Just be sure -- dogs in shelters have often been traumatized. The thought of someone else adopting my little guy and giving up on him because of the behavior problems he came with (in addition to $800 worth of dental work because of poor nutrition & neglect) would break my heart! When he was adopted by me, it was a commitment I made to him -- there was no giving him back or giving him up. No way, never! The commitment has been well worth it -- he's a fabulous dog. Every hug he gives me can make a crappy day fade away and brings a smile to my face, and sometimes a tear to my eye when I think about how he started his life.

So just be sure and welcome a very special kind of love into your life, one that you get from a rescued dog.
:grouphug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. you can foster a dog.
And if things work out with dog and you, dog can choose to adopt you :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. look take a "breed selector test" it'll help you understand and
explain to others which "traits" are more likely to get you a successful match. Petfinder is also an amazing resource to find local available adoptees
Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. Get referencces for good local trainers
There's a good chance both you, your family and the dog will all need some training to "get on the same page", so to speak. Some dogs that have found their way to shelters might be very well trained, not so others. And even if he/she has been trained, it may be to different commands from what you know. A short course with a good trainer in your home can help your new pet and all of your family have a happier home.

Kudos for being willing to rescue on of the countless shelter dogs who are either waiting for homes or who are on death row. We need more people like you!



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Make sure that you tell them that you gave up a dog before--and exactly why. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. We just adopted one from a kill shelter in GA. We live in Northern NY
She simply caught my eye and her story touched my heart. We knew that we couldn't be sure what we were getting but were ready to deal with it no matter what. She is young, about 1-2 years and went into a shelter with barbed wire embedded in her side. She had surgery and had been at the shelter for at least 1-2 months. We used a paid transporter to get her to us. She is the sweetest and most lovable dog! I have noticed that she has a bone problem around her hip area and we took her to our vet. She had previously had puppies and is not spayed but she will be spayed in 2 weeks and will also have that hip/leg area x-rayed then. We also have 2 Weimaraners of which one is a rescue. Just interact with some of the dogs at the shelter and see how it goes. Patience is the biggest thing you might need. There are so many dogs out there that need homes. Just be honest with the shelter and let them know what will fit into your home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Yes, try a local group that fosters (or a breed-specific group) -
we've done that twice and it makes a world of difference. If you want one that is already crate & potty trained ask for it. They may make a mistake or two getting used to your home but they should settle in fine.

If you're looking at adult dogs be sure to ask for their medical files. Our adult lab was ok at first medically, but we've now learned he has hip dysplasia and a heart murmer has developed (he's between 4-6 yrs old and had heart worm which probably did long term damage to his heart). We love him and will do as much as we can to help him, but it's not cheap.

Think about the expense and whether it's right for all members of your family right now. Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. If you do get another dog I suggest an Obedience course.
Not so much for the dog but for you. We rescued a 5 year old Lab back in August and had a bit of difficulty at first ( see other post by me in the Pet forum). Turns out most the problem was our attitude. Once we began to be consistent in our commands and realxed about his behavior everything has been great. We have really gotten attached to him and it seems he to us. There were medical issues that we were not appraised of such as seizures (he has had 3 since we have had him) but I am actually glad we did not know prior to adopting him because he has become such a wonderful companion and we may have decided differently had we known.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
auntsue Donating Member (169 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. I adopted ma 6 pound miniture pincer on Fri
from the local humane society. She was very attached to shelter staff. But she's on my lap right now and she knows she's home. We start obedience class next week.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. You might consider a senior dog.
They tend to have a hard time finding homes, but they're often sweet and calm and very aware that you've rescued them. The drawback is that they might have some health issues, or develop them in the near future, and they won't be with you as long as a younger dog would be - but many seniors are active and healthy into advanced age. Better to spend a few wonderful years with a well-matched dog, than to spend a decade with a dog who doesn't fit your lifestyle and you drive each other crazy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrmpa Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. Wait until after January 1
if you celebrate the holidays. If you do celebrate, all the excitement and entertainment might be a bit much for the dog to take, while it's trying to acclimate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. a good shelter will have you fill out an extensive application
Edited on Sun Nov-28-10 08:28 PM by northernlights
and will help you to choose a dog that is a good fit for you, because they want the arrangement to work out. Be totally honest in the application -- about your household, your lifestyle, what you are looking for in a dog, and your limitations.

Many also have you take them on trial for a week or two, which is a really good thing.

Don't be surprised if a housebroken dog has an accident or two early on...they are nervous. My most recent rescue, Luna, was pulled from a kill shelter in Georgia. He clearly understood housebreaking, but also had been abused. He would get *so* nervous and worried going out to pee that he would lose control and pee on the rug before I could get my shoes on.

It wasn't that he didn't understand. He just was afraid and worried. So I changed the going outside routine and trusted him to go out by himself while I slipped into my shoes and followed him a few seconds later. It worked, and once he didn't have to wait that extra few seconds for me to get into my shoes, he stopped having accidents. And when he stopped having accidents, he stopped being worried and afraid he would have an accident. It became a positive reinforcing loop. It just isn't an issue any more and I can put on my shoes, my jacket, my hat, my gloves and whatever without him losing control.

My point being that no dog is going to be what you consider "perfect" from the start, but will require time, patience, compassion, empathy, understanding and work on your part to help them acclimate to their new routine. If you aren't up to putting a full effort and commitment to helping your dog adjust to you -- and adjusting your life to meet your dog's needs -- then don't do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
s-cubed Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. I would strongly recommend that you adopt from an orgnizati on that fosters dogs
in volunteers homes before they are adopted, or directly from a previous owner. Many breed rescue groups foster, as well as many other organizations. Fostering allows a dog to relax a bit in a normal environment, and allows the foster volunteer to really assess the dog's temperament and other characteristics. A shelter is a very stressful environment for a dog, and it's hard to tell a lot about it, even if you are a pretty good dog judge. But a person who fosters a dog will tell you if it is good with other dogs, cats, children, if it has phobias or anxieties, if it is housebroken, etc.
Owners sometimes have to give up dogs for reasons that have nothing to do with the dog: someone gets sick, has to move to a dog-free apartment, someone dies, etc. Two of my best dogs were found by watching newspapers ads. Do ask lots of questions!
Also, I prefer adopting young adults to puppies. By that age you can get a better idea of the temperament, activity level, as well as the size. I've adopted a number of dogs, and the one that gave me the most trouble was the one I adopted from a shelter: she turned out to be very dog aggressive. While it is true that you can shape a puppy a lot by how you raise and socialize it, you can't change it's basic temperament or activity level, any more than you can a person's personality.
Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-28-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. I run a dog rescue, and that you gave up your other dog
would raise red flags to me. We don't adopt to people who have rehomed another dog, unless it is for reasons of aggression. We believe that if you give up one dog, you will give up our dog if there are problems.

I don't know what your local humane society does, they may be more lenient than we are, but at the least, if I did decide to adopt to you, I would insist on obedience classes. In fact, I do require all of our new owners to commit to training classes or they don't adopt. It is VERY traumatic for a dog to be in a shelter, leave the shelter, go back to the shelter. You must expect some problems, a period of time in which the dog may pee in the house, or growl near their food. If you are not willing to work with the dog, as much as it pains me to say this, you should buy a dog. And breed rescues are no guarantee of no problems. I rescued a 7 month old Great Dane from Dane rescue, and he was the most neurotic dog who chewed up every single thing of my husband's over the 11 years we had him!!

Good luck!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC