Thank You

[grantcart]

As I end my active posting at DU, I would like to take a moment to express my gratitude to the administrators, the moderators, and all who passionately participate here with a view to electing Democratic office-holders and promote the progressive agenda.

Twenty five years ago, I was in a very high-pressure situation, the issue being a lack of refugee resettlement numbers forcing first-asylum countries to forcibly repatriate refugees to where tens of thousands died. I found that even though I was carrying the operational load of the office, the Chief of Mission was spending his time scrutinizing and critiquing my work during the morning meeting, while others that were making no contribution remained untouched. In private, I asked him why he did this. “Because I respect you, I am going to engage you and challenge you. The others aren't worth the effort”.

I hope that everyone I engaged at DU, in agreement or combat, understand that for me engagement is a sign of respect.

I doubt anyone will be too surprised that I am part of the obvious migration from DU. In my previous effort to contribute to the discussion of factions here, I included this statement:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/311

“You cannot expect Solidarity Democrats to come here and see a President, who they like and support to keep getting bashed in thread after thread after thread as a corporate sell out”. Even if you feel that is the truth you certainly can understand why people who support the President wouldn't want to continue to come to a site that promotes attacks against the President that, in many cases, approach the venom of the right wing.”

There is no need to re-litigate the issue. The DU community has come to a fork in the road and, with the new rules now expanding criticism of Democrats (without having to reach the very low bar of “constructive criticism”), the chosen path has been determined and set upon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/board.php?az=view_all&address=437x743

What you cannot understand (and that which I cannot hope to communicate to each of you) is how grateful I was to be here.

To understand what a great value DU has been to me, I have to take you back to 1978, when I left the US, and compare it with my return in 1995.

When I left the US, G. Gordon Liddy was easily the most despised man in the country; when I returned, he was given a First Amendment award for his statements about the most effective way to kill a federal officer being to shoot him in the throat, because it was not protected.

When I left the US, the Church I grew up in was a bastion for peace, an advocate for the poor that celebrated diversity. When I returned, they preached about angels, taught that God blessed good people with big salaries, and led a fight to keep gays out of the ministry.

When I left Spokane, it was a city with two percent AA population that had an AA City Councilman that would become mayor. When I got back, people outside the region established an Aryan compound – and I worried about security for my mixed race family. I noticed that a police car was now parked in front of the Jewish synagogue every Saturday.

When I left the US 'mother' was not a hyphenated word.

In those decades, I had gone ‘native’ so to speak. Having left the UN community, I started a factory in Bangkok, where I would only see a few expatriates during my last two years.

When I returned to the US, it was like a Twilight Zone episode.

Someone had stolen my country.

We arrived lived out of sleeping bags in a relative’s basement. I worked my way up to a partner in a large management consultant company, but I was stuck watching a lot of people arguing about things that I thought were long settled.

I had become a refugee in a strange land – and yet it was the land of my birth.

A minor medical catastrophe wiped us out again, and our little family returned to sleeping bag survival – but we enjoyed working together to survive in what was now a strange country.

It wasn’t until I found DU that I could reconnect with my earlier life. I found people who felt passionately about the same things I did, and DU became an existential lifeline.

I have no doubt that DUers share a similar agenda – a single-payer health care system, elimination of nuclear arms, reduction of the military, full employment, responsible corporate citizenship, equal rights for all – the list goes on and on. And although we may be taking separate paths toward common goals, we will inevitably be meeting down the road.

I leave with the clear awareness that I have taken from DU much more than I contributed, a debt that I cannot repay.

I will, however, take credit for be the leading light on exposing the dangers of those “Goddamned Flemish”.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/54

[babylonsister]

1. Aw, damn.

I will miss you tremendously, grantcart. :hug:

[JNelson6563]

2. Beautiful post.

Sorry to see you leave but I suspect I am not far behind.

Julie

[mzmolly]

85. Ditto

Julie. :(

[merh]

133. I'm lost

The link in his OP doesn't work, what is he referring to? Why leave?

I'm not on DU as much as I used to be, I don't understand why the need to leave it.

[mzmolly]

157. More of a choice for some. DU used to be considered a refuge

for Democrats. Some fear it's becoming a place where Dems just get to be bashed from eternal critics on the left vs. those on the right. I hope that's not the case.

[merh]

158. I don't want DU to be the echo chamber that the righties

claim it to be.

I've learned more about politics and about people by posting at a mixed board. In so doing, I've learned that my stereotypes are wrong and I hope to have shown to the righties on the board that their stereotypes are wrong.

But that is my choice to post in the mixed atmosphere.

Here at DU one just has to learn to avoid the threads that upset them. After Katrina I was attacked by many at DU, you know we lazy Katrina sorts who want hand outs ....

DU, like life, is what you make of it. It isn't supposed to be easy, you just don't pull a Palin and walk out when it the shine wears off.

I think the OP is wrong. He should just take a break, we all need to do that - but to give up is just cowardly, imho.

[mzmolly]

159. I want it to be what it said it was when I joined.

A respite for Democrats. We needn't have an echo chamber to recognize when some continually advocate against Democrats using leftist lingo to do so. I don't consider that productive, or putting up a fight.

The OP isn't giving up, he's just moving on. Perhaps he'll find a place where he feels supported again.

Peace to you merh.

[merh]

160. From the responses in this thread, the support is here.

The OP is just rejecting it because it isn't the utopia he wants.

That is giving up to me - quitting when where you happen to be is not as perfect as you want.

peace to you too, mzmolly and peace to the OP - don't think he will ever find it as he is looking for it in others and not in himself.

[goclark]

161. Grantcart I am following you out the door

I don't see a Welcome Mat in this home that I loved anymore.

Best wishes to you grantcart! :patriot:
My last post.

[jillan]

3. Somehow I missed that whole thread, which is a good thing, I don't neatly fit into any one label. GC

I'm really sorry to see you go. I always looked forward to your OPs. :( :(

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

4. You have always been one of DU's finest

[Tatiana]

5. I'm so sorry you feel this way. I will miss your insight.

I hope to see you back here.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. I respect you tremendously. Godspeed to you...

:hug:

[lpbk2713]

7. Thank you for your contributions.

And thank you for explaining your position.

I understand.

[lunatica]

8. I found DU because I was desperate to connect with reason during the Bush years

I couldn't watch the TV anymore. 9/11 drove me to find my people on the internet. My desperation started with the Supreme Court selecting Bush. I wasn't ignorant before that, because I've always paid attention to what's going on. But when I literally got a chill up my spine the first time I saw Bush strutting around with his entourage I felt we were in trouble. Obviously my intuition wasn't wrong.

I lurked daily here for years just getting solace and reading you and other DUer's posts. It literally saved my sanity. I'm sorry that you want to leave. It seems again a minority wins and gets the prize just because they're screaming the loudest.

[lonestarnot]

9. I'm sorry Grantcart.

Come back now ya hear. :hug:

[R. P. McMurphy]

10. You will be missed.

I always liked the way you would engage people with whom you disagreed. Always with calm and reason; never trying to out-shout or belittle. To me, you are a model of how a DU'er should behave. You are one of the first DU'ers I came to recognize and also one whose opinions I value the most. Please just take a break and continue your posts again at some later date.

[azmouse]

11. You will be missed here.

:hug:

Many of us feel the same way you do about DU and we will be leaving soon too.

I'm sorry it has come to this on a once great website but if I want non-stop Democrat bashing I'll go to FR.

[malaise]

12. An absolutley fabulous post

I hope you return. grouphug:

[jpgray]

13. Consider taking a break and coming back in '12

Unless some disaster occurs, I expect to see the entire board united behind Obama, even if some do so only in hatred of the GOP nominee.

[Renew Deal]

14. I think your post shows how the admins have misinterpreted the Member Survey

They undervalued the satisfaction rate (74% Satisfied, 14% Unsatisfied) while overvaluing the the rate of people that want to see changes (12%) and the criticism of Dems rate (51% support non-constructive criticism).

I think the admins might have decided on solutions without understanding the problems they are trying to solve. What does that mean?

It means that people come to DU to be protected from RW BS. I know Dems that didn't like DU because they considered it too hostile to Dems in the past. I was OK with that in general because I thought the dialog was good. I can't imagine what they will think now, but your post is a great clue.

[DevonRex]

25. I agree. And...

the question about constructive criticism could have been written better. I know I read it 2 or 3 times just to make sure I answered the way I wanted to.

[LoZoccolo]

41. I think their market research analysis messed up the fundraiser as well.

I think they didn't see that even if the people who want to keep the criticism constructive are a minority, that that minority would probably shell out more because a constructive site is worth it to them. And that a constructive site would probably attract a more constructive contingent which could eventually become a majority.

[DevonRex]

47. You have a good point there.

There is no way to determine whether those who want nonconstructive criticism actually donate. Also, from a marketing standpoint, how does one have a site called Democratic Underground that has not had one good word to say about the Pres or the party in many moons? It's like having a store called "The Shirt Store" that only sells pants. People will walk in and walk right back out - to find a store that actually sells shirts. And they'll probably be pissed at the store for wasting their time. Since websites have to attract new members and since the name of the site is important when a person searches for websites, how many people will stay once they've seen the content? They'll move on to a site that actually is for Democrats. IMO a destructive cycle has begun...

And LOL, I was just about to send you the link to this thread.

[patrice]

143. From what has been happening with the Deletions in this thread, I am now considering

going to my bank-website and cancelling the donations that I just setup.

[Number23]

61. That is an excellent point and it's very true.

I doubt that very many of the people here who call the president a "lightweight, lying con man," a "black Ken doll," call his election an "experiment" and can find NOTHING to praise him for will be donating to this site or ANYTHING that supports the Democratic party. It's amazing that this is not automatically evident.

[slay]

109. I disagree - you look at the people who've donated so far

and most of them are the ones who DO question Obama's effectiveness and leadership.

And good lord LoZoccolo - how can YOU even attempt to chime in on this when MANY of your threads are just the bouncy :bounce: "K&R if you love Obama" type topics with NO message at all. Way to contribute to constructive conversation there. :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

155. agree w/your disagree...

:thumbsup:

...i don't fully understand the stance (or idea) that this site is representative of anything, but "this site." :shrug: my democratic support is not in any danger, based on the anonymous postings of individuals in cyberspace.

[Number23]

122. Using this thread as an example, of the few (VERY few) people who have the

"I donated" sign next to their user names, the majority are staunch supporters of this president and this administration -- including the OP. It's not even close.

And I have no doubt that there would be many, many more if things weren't so unfailingly nasty, hostile and ridiculous around here.

[patrice]

142. Correct. DU could go the way of NPR, except that there won't be anyone there to save its ass at the

last minute.

But then, perhaps that also is part of the whole point of what is being driven forward here.

[patrice]

144. I'm not. I am about Process, systemic processes, anything else is one degree or another of Facism.

[TwilightGardener]

15. You'll be missed. Good luck to you.

[kentuck]

16. I don't think folks should look at criticism of the President as attacks..

They are doing what must be done. Holding his feet to the fire. Otherwise, he simply will not do what needs to be done, they think.

[MineralMan]

28. I don't, unless they actually are attacks. Lots of that going around

these days. Criticism is fine. Attacks are not, in my opinion. It's not my site, though.

[JuniperLea]

52. I think there are many here who don't get the difference...

Between criticism and attacks.

[MineralMan]

58. I believe you're right. It's a sad business, sometimes, reading

DU.

[patrice]

137. The lust for power obfuscates the difference.

[walldude]

29. I am confused by this post as the OP starts out

talking about solidarity among Dems then goes on to list things like equal rights, single payer, reduction of the military, and responsible corporate citizenship. I don't see how you can recognize solidarity with this administration if those things are your goals.

[jonnyblitz]

55. the cognitive dissonance makes one's head spin!

:crazy:

[dave29]

139. delete

lol

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. +1

[muffin1]

126. That was my reaction, too. n/t

[patrice]

138. The question is about the means to those ends.

Those means are determined by your position and, thus, responsibilities, in the various systems that shape our outcomes.
Different positions, different responsibilities, different means.
Ergo,
There are those of us who share the ends you list, but who do not think destruction of the Obama Presidency and the Democrats will deliver what those (???) who wish to see that claim that it will deliver. It will NOT change the things that you have listed but will, rather, deconstruct whatever political mass there is available, which has a better chance at changing these things, right at a point when it is more possible than it has ever been in my lifetime for that political mass to become a critical mass.

[patrice]

148. Re, my last sentence above: . . . but then maybe that's some people's intent, no matter what avatar

they use.

Again, everything I see adds up to what could quite possibly be a "new" form of Facism, replacing an older form. And in light of the fact that there is little or 0 chance of the deliverables being what the new in-crowd (who???ever they are) only suggests very much like bait, without any actual concrete plan to deliver. I'm opting for numbers that are not only more probable, but also and more importantly, given certain pressures on the whole thing, more immediate.

[patrice]

146. kentuck, sweetheart, what is the percentage in doing things for folks who have a declared intent

of not voting for you and, thus, destroying you and ANYTHING else that you might be able to deliver?

Especially when/if that declared intent is coupled with dishonesty and, otherwise, almost complete lack of concrete, real world, constructive behaviors.

I'd REALLY like an answer to this question.

on edit: to introduce a hypothetical

[patrice]

150. And he is holding their feet to the fire too; when people want something for nothing

(as in "Do this, or we won't vote for you" and they very likely won't vote for you anyway!) as I was saying, when people want something for nothing, you just can't give it to them, even if you might want them to have it.

He's holding their feet to the fire too, by saying, in effect, "You must work for what you're asking us to do." That work is something in exchange for something, a much more mature, non-ideological, real-world relationship.

[Radical Activist]

151. Thta's the line that will always be used

by people who campaign against Obama no matter what he does. Does it help pass progressive legislation to always criticize and never praise?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9567343&mesg_id=9567343

[Dystopian]

17. Thank you...

For being you...

peace~

[CaliforniaPeggy]

18. My dear grantcart...

I am very sorry to see you go, but I understand completely...

I hope you will continue to lurk and to post even if only rarely...


We'll keep a light on for you!


I am proud to recommend this eloquent and elegant post...

:hug:

[Scurrilous]

19. K & R

:thumbsup:

[jaxx]

20. Thank you Grantcart.

For the sound of soul coming through your words. You speak for many of us, with the simple truth.

For some reason your words remind me of another:

"Hear me, my chiefs. I am tired. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."
-Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, 1877

Be well Grantcart.

[DevonRex]

21. Grant,

That was beautifully written and so very true. Many of us feel the same.

[kentuck]

22. K & R

Thanks grantcart for your many contributions.

[avaistheone1]

23. I am sorry you feel the way.

I think you are very sincere and good voice here, but I think the criticism of the President is justified. Some of us including myself think it is not strong enough.

I respect your decision, remember you can always reconsider and come back.

[Peacetrain]

24. Oh shoot..

:cry:

[Mimosa]

26. Grantcart, you may be tired for now.

Grantcart, I find that reading and posting a lot on D.U. can be exhausting or depressing because we are discussing very serious issues. Your description of how America has changed is accurate.

On D.U. there are many people who can disagree with respect and politeness. I don't think D.U. has declined into a pit of rude incivility. Trolls come by every couple of days but it seems to me they get dealt with and tombstoned.

I hope you enjoy a rest and return whenever you feel positive and refreshed.

[MineralMan]

27. Thanks for your excellent post, Grantcart.

I'm going to stick around, but I find myself posting less and less these days. With the holidays fast approaching and my workload increasing, I suppose that's just as well. Like you, I share all those agenda points, just as most people here do. I just believe that any progress, no matter how small, is better than no progress at all. So, when we're up against Republicans who can still blockade wide-ranging changes, I'm good with the minor changes that are possible. I'd rather have those than nothing or regression.

[flamingdem]

30. Thanks very much Grantcart nt

[JuniperLea]

31. K&R for so eloquently stating truth

I've tried many times to put into words the changes I've seen in our nation, our government, and DU, but never quite felt comfortable with any explanation I could muster. I'll be reading your missive again; it's fairly haunting.

I'm not far behind... I'm feeling the Siren's call to freedom, the swan-song swelling in my throat. I've never been good at goodbyes. I feel myself fading away, and that's fine.

[AtomicKitten]

32. Cheers to you, grantcart. See you on the flipside. nt

[Plaid Adder]

33. Sorry to see you go, Grantcart. You were always more light than heat.

We never talked much and our politics are probably not the same but I always enjoyed reading your analysis. You were always sane.

I am still 'here,' as in still a member, though I'm no longer active, mainly because I don't have the time any more. For what DU was to me when I was active, I'll always love the place and support it. Thanks for being part of what it was.

The Plaid Adder

[spanone]

34. you'll be missed gc

[blondeatlast]

35. You will be sorely missed, GC. I find myself in much the same situation

though--I came here from respite from my deep red state hatred of all thing Democratic--and see the same sentiments not only echoed, but celebrated here.

Take care, my friend.

[psychmommy]

36. Noooo

wow grantcart. i will miss you. why are all of the good folks leaving. we are still here. i just lerk because i don't really like the tone around here. they will soon get bored and leave us the heck alone. when they do, i hope you and all of the rest come back home.

[FrenchieCat]

37. Thank you Grantcart for being a ray of sanity here at DU....

I wonder when my time will come too.....?
and whether I will be escorted from the site (some pray for this I know),
or whether I will simply fade out...which to some extent is what is currently happening.

but whichever way...truth be told, coming to DU for me is quite oftentimes depressing,
and eminates a whole lot of negativity in a way that doesn't help any of our causes at all;
not even one bit.

and the fact that it is no longer a safe haven for Democrats who
simply want to support their party and get changes done, no matter how incremental,
and not be hit with nasty talking points time after time is true.

The Right not only won the last election, in a way they have won here as well.....
by getting us to spend more time "criticizing" this President above everything,
and leaving them pretty much alone.

I'm sure there is a place like DU used to be....
here now, or then perhaps can be (re)constructed.

I bid you good luck Grantcart and hope to see you sooner than soon
in a better place.

[Kahuna]

38. You have been a class act from your very first DU post. You leave

a class act. For me, with you, it was love at first post. :loveya:

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

42. Never mind...

Not worth it.


Ciao... and, I still have my fingers.

[hay rick]

40. Speaking as someone who probably hasn't posted a kind word

about our President in the past year... you will be missed. Hope you reconsider.

K&R.

[cry baby]

43. Thank you, grantcart...you're intelligence, patience, and light have enriched me

and inspired me.

You will be missed.

[H2O Man]

44. Peace to you

and yours, my Friend. It has been a pleasure knowing you here.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bobbie Jo]

46. Thank you, grantcart.

Yet another hole in the DU soul. :-(

I suspect you won't be the last...

"There is no need to re-litigate the issue. The DU community has come to a fork in the road and, with the new rules now expanding criticism of Democrats (without having to reach the very low bar of “constructive criticism”), the chosen path has been determined and set upon."

If you will, a few more words of encouragement...

Grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change...

the Courage to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference.

...and with that, I applaud your wisdom.

[bigtree]

48. very sorry to see you go, friend. I certainly understand.

I'll miss you. Best wishes and best regards.

[Dr Fate]

49. In turn, many of the new rules are great.

Many of the things I had a problem with are being corrected.

Sorry that you do not like people who cant hold their tounges when they see that their party is about to lose the midterms due to poor strategy. Those voices that are driving you away were correct on many issues and points of strategy.

Hope you come back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Good luck

[EFerrari]

51. I'm happy the admins stepped in when they did. Won't miss being accused

of having a deep, personal hatred of the president at all.

Some members will have trouble with this change initially. That's just to be expected, habits die hard. DU will be a better place now that we can focus on issues more and on personalities less.

[slay]

108. +1

I'm with you. I don't hate Obama either, I just want him to do well - to do BETTER. If some people choose to leave DU that is their choice but nobody is being forced out here. There is only so much that can be accomplished on a message board website anyways so I'm glad to see more inclusion of all liberals at DU. I prefer constructive criticism, but I would be MUCH more afraid of the possible over-moderation and censorship that would occur if ALL criticism had to be constructive. Sorry he felt he had to leave, but it's a choice. There are certain things like the 9/11 dungeon here I'm not happy about either, but it is what it is. :shrug:

[inna]

112. +1,000. Issues, not personalities, please!

[yellerpup]

53. I am not the only one who will miss your well-reasoned,

well-written posts and replies. I don't recall ever disagreeing with you on anything and am feeling depressed over your departure, even though I understand. You always contributed something valuable to every argument and you did it reasonably without being abusive to anyone. I sincerely hope that you will return. We need you more than you need us and you will be missed, grantcart.

[hfojvt]

54. Well I don't buy the "engage and challenge people that you respect" thing

and apparently you do not either, when it comes to scrutinizing and critiquing Obama.

[LiberalLovinLug]

56. You will be missed but you are over-reacting

I have always enjoyed your OPs and posts. I pray that you will reconsider, or just take a sabbatical.

but...
I can't see how passionate liberals, either moderate or extreme, can passively sit by while a President who promised Change, that was assumed by many Democrats as being change to the left, instead veered right in a hopeless effort to partner with an obvious hostile GOP on legislation.

You seem to want DU to be more like FreeRepublic while Dubya was in office. I cannot walk lockstep like that. I must do as Obama challenged us to do upon his acceptance speech.

"There are many who won’t agree with every decision or policy I make as President, and we know that government can’t solve every problem. But I will always be honest with you about the challenges we face. I will listen to you, especially when we disagree."

He did not say that he would only listen to right wing critics (although that is what the situation seems to be now)

You are leaving....where? Even with the criticism of the POTUS, this is still the most moderated, safest Democrat/Liberal/Progressive on which to get your opinion heard.

It may be the constructive/nonconstructive criticism clause that irks you. But that is so subjective. Also it is difficult to be constructive in ones criticism all the time, and it is requiring people to be phoney. I mean one could post.."Obama never fought hard enough for the public option for health insurance, BUT to be fair / he was still a newbie / he must now have top secret info that required he nix it / he had a lot on his plate / he thought Nancy was going to handle it / etc...

My point is, sometimes there is no constructive angle that holds any water. And so then what? Don't post at all? Sorry, I am with the majority. I cannot sit by and not voice my concern when ANY president, R or D, acts in a way that empowers the corporate status quo, and ridicules the concerns of the "professional left"

Once again, I hope you reconsider. We need all voices on here. I understand that Obama and the previous
Congress have brought in some good legislation, or at least tried, and in the midst of many of our frustrations about Obama's disappointments sometimes we are blind to those accomplishments, and we need voices like yours to remind us of this now and then.

[immoderate]

65. Good post. It's what I wanted to say to grantcart. You did it well.

Grantcart is one of the great voices on this site. I always felt that he and I wanted the same outcomes.

Inasmuch as President Obama is not leading us toward those outcomes, he should be subject to criticism. This is the Democratic Underground, not a personality cult.

Grantcart, I wish you wouldn't go, but best of luck to you.

--imm

[supernova]

57. Wish you wouldn't leave

You are too well-spoken to leave the debate.

But I do understand.

[uppityperson]

59. Sorry to see you go, keep up the good work, catch you later somewhere perhaps.

[byronius]

60. Don't go! Please!

Or if you do, come back.

[Whisp]

62. You are one of the very best, grantcart.

Sorry to see you leave, but I totally understand.

It's toxic here. Unhealthy for a Democrat that supports Obama.

:(

[leftstreet]

63. But why exactly are you leaving?

:shrug:

I don't get this. Because of the anticipated rule changes?

Why not wait and see how things flesh out?

[Major Hogwash]

64. But, you will never really be gone from DU.

Because as a buddhist, you always remain in a state of being.

As far as that goes, this was one of the better "Good-bye Cruel World" posts I have ever read.
Knowing that you are still here, enhances that aspect.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AndrewP]

68. Good luck

[TK421]

69. I hope you rethink this and continue to stay onboard..you're one of the

sane posters here...and you would be sorely missed

At least think about it, alright? In the meantime, take a break if you feel you have to but don't leave outright

[BlancheSplanchnik]

70. sad to see your intelligent and reasonable voice leave

You're one of the people I think quite highly of and look forward to your posts.


I don't like the ugliness either; I'm glad to see someone I respect putting into words what's been upsetting and confusing.

[Kali]

71. wow

I am kind of shocked. I don't spend that much time out of the lounge, but you are one of the voices here I considered to be most reasonable whether I was in agreement or not on the topic. I'm kind of shocked by this.

wow

[DemReadingDU]

72. Thank you!

Grantcart, I often read your postings, but don't post much myself. But this is one of my favorites

"And I can prove it"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8163235

[patrice]

73. I am back myself only just recently and find that I don't feel as at home here as I used to and with

you gone, grantcart, that fact will be the more so.

My problems have to do with how it appears that some people have decided how things should be for so many others. They may bear leftie labels and spout progressive patois, but the basic assumption, similar to that of the right wing, that one can determine absolutely "how things are" and therefore conclude absolutely "how they should be" is just another form of ends-justifies-the-means oppression to me, because they are assumptions that will hurt the powerless and, yet, they are justified by resistance to coercive power. We agree about the what. We disagree about the how.

Though I may be spending less time here myself, I'm going to miss you, grantcart. I'm going to miss how you always added something to either the factual base and/or the understanding of a topic. The DU will be less without you.

[lunasun]

97. Well said > is just another form of ends-justifies-the-means oppression

[mrs_p]

74. i really wish you would stay

i appreciate your posts and insights. i know what you mean about the constant attacks (and saying the president has no balls is nothing but an attack - and a sexist one at that). people like you make it still bearable to be here, though. i wish you would change your mind.

[HuckleB]

75. Best of luck.

I'm certainly with you on this, at least as far as politics goes. My posting will diminish greatly under the new rules.

[BumRushDaShow]

76. Wish you well

and agree with your reasons. DU has slowly devolved into a toxic wasteland although the site is still quite useful when it comes to separating wheat from chaff in the news department. Sadly, the state of affairs here seems to be reflective of the overall angry and negative tenor that has overtaken the nation of late, and the hope is that one day, the pendulum will swing the other way.

[Time for change]

77. I've appreciated your contribution here

Even when you criticize me, because you always do so in a constructive and civil way.

One thing that I don't understand. You say that the bar for criticizing Democrats has been lowered to the point where it doesn't even have to be constructive. I don't recall reading that (I did read Skinner's recent article), and the link you provide appears not to be working. If that's true I'm surprised and disappointed. I'm all for open discussion, but I don't understand why the bar would be lowered to the point where it doesn't have to even be constructive. Are you sure you didn't misinterpret that?

[MrScorpio]

78. Thank you

Till we meet again

[kayakjohnny]

80. That was a great post. And so full of heart.

I don't know you, but I've seen you here forever.

I'm sure this was a heavy decision.

You seem good with it.

That's what matters.

All the best to you!

[WillyT]

81. Peace GC... Peace...

Thank you for all of your wisdom.

:patriot:

:kick: & R !!!

:hi:

[blogslut]

82. Aww, don't go forever

Just take a break. Regardless, I have always appreciated your posts and your verve.

Here's good thoughts for your future.

[scarletwoman]

83. May you have a fair wind at your back and the road well-lit before you. (nt)

[mzmolly]

84. I understand how you feel GC. I wish you'd reconsider because I feel if those of us

who support Democrats, stay and fight the voices of cynicism will not drown out reason.

I hope you'll be back, and before long. :pals:

~ Peace ~

[Kind of Blue]

86. This is heartbreaking, GrantCart.

You're one of a kind. I have certainly taken more from you than I've contributed. Thank you for your insights and your amicable style of disagreeing without being disagreeable. Please keep watch so as to allow the opportunity to come back soon :hug:

[XemaSab]

87. Even though I am finding myself more and more in the third camp

I find your arguments to be well stated. :patriot:

[sufrommich]

88. Sorry to see you go, Grantcart. I've always liked your posts.

Good luck to you,wherever you go. :toast:

[bluedigger]

89. Thanks for the GBCW, grantcart!

Keep fighting the good fight!

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Egnever]

91. Only if we add one for complete and utter morons as well

[MH1]

92. It really makes me sad to read your post.

I had come to like DU for certain things but have not been spending much time here lately.

With high quality posters like yourself leaving, and apparently, per your comments, the DU rules becoming more tolerant of the WORST of DU, then it looks like this won't be a place worth hanging out at for much longer.

:(

Anyway, I'm very sorry to see you go (if you truly go ... folks have a way of changing their minds after writing these things :) ) and I hope you find more pleasant and productive online environs. If you do, stop back here long enough to PM some of us with the url, will ya?

[OmahaBlueDog]

93. If you've found a new posting home, send me a PM

I'll miss you. You were one of the better political scientists here. Be well, and remember that everything works in cycles, and America will swing back to sanity at some point.

[Egnever]

94. And with that post i think it is time to end taking this place seriously

once and for all.

It was a great refuge when shrub was in power. When there were very few such places. I learned an incredible amount here over the years but lately there has been far less learning than there has been horror at the ease at which even this pl;ace is manipulated by headlines.

You have been one of my all time favorite poster grant and I will miss your intelligent takes on so many subjects.

I think i knew this place had jumped the shark once and for all the day Will Pitt was banned. What Was once a place for independent thinkers has become a bastion of group think that has gotten so bad that it believes Kieth Olberman is a real journalist yet is outraged when he is held to journalists standards.

I just rarely see the value in this place anymore, and I find it to be a shame.

You will be sorely missed here grantcart and when your objective eye becomes one that is ridiculed here its clear that this place is no longer what it used to be.

Good luck in life and I hope I am lucky enough to cross paths with you somewhere out there in the internets in the future.

Having said all that I do enjoy poking a stick in the hornets nest that this place has become every so often so I will likely still do that when I am feeling ornery enough to withstand the onslaught of the borg that always follows.

[mahina]

95. Aloha 'Oe Grantcart, I will miss your presence here very much.

Will PM you in a bit.

Please say hi now and again...

[BrklynLiberal]

96. You will be missed......

[moondust]

98. Good luck out there!

Always valued your input!

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[juajen]

100. I remember a time when I felt Hillary Clinton was being treated

abominably on DU. I did post on another forum regularly, but couldn't leave DU and kept up with what was going on and posted occasionally. It is my home and I am very glad I did not leave for good. We, on this board, do not always agree, but like any other family, I wish we all could realize that our viewpoint is not always shared by other DUers. There should be room here for disagreement. So, Grantcart, I bid you farewell, and hope that you will come back. I will miss your posts, which I always read first. Bless you, and I hope to see you back here soon.

[sonias]

101. I will miss you too grantcart

You were one of the best members of DU. I wish you the best in the world you move onto. You will be remembered fondly.

Take care. :hug:

[DeepModem Mom]

102. Beautiful, grantcart...

:patriot:

[saracat]

103. " Mother was not a hyphenated word" what does that even mean??????

[JNelson6563]

131. Here's a mother-fuckin' clue.

:evilgrin:

[saracat]

132. "Mother" was NEVER a hyphenated word, even in that sense, but

confusion stems from persona self identification rather than political principles.That particular word wasn't new even in 1970 when Frank Zappa put out an album entitled Freaks and M***********'s. Most assuredly , he did NOT Make the word up. :rofl: :evilgrin:

[Violet_Crumble]

145. What's 'persona'? Is that a typo? n/t

[RandomKoolzip]

149. Zappa didn't put out an album called "Freaks and Motherfuckers" in 1970.

That CD you refer to was originally put out as a vinyl bootleg sometime in the mid-70's. It was from a show recorded in November 1970 at the Fillmore West. The source is an audience tape, highly Dolby-ized. The title wasn't chosen by Zappa; however, he kept the packaging, including said title, exactly the same when he re-issued that bootleg as part of the "Beat the Boots" box he put out in 1992.

Sorry - I'm a stickler for factual accuracy, especially when it comes to Zappa.

[WildEyedLiberal]

104. Wow.... if you're leaving, I don't see much hope for DU

You're one of the absolute best posters this site has to offer, and one of the reasons it was worthwhile to trudge through all the crap. But now? I don't see any bright light on the horizon.

Sorry you're leaving, though I understand why.

[Radical Activist]

152. Agreed

[Subdivisions]

105. It appears from the nature of the reponses in this thread

that the new rules are being respected.

[JNelson6563]

130. With about 14 deletions on this thread

I'm thinking you are incorrect.

Julie

[Subdivisions]

136. There were no deletions when I posted. I'm not surprised it didn't hold up. n/t

[hlthe2b]

106. Grantcart, I know you've made up your mind...

But, we will feel the intense loss of your leaving. It saddens me. I don't know what else to say. All the best, friend.

[Chulanowa]

107. Sorry to see you go

Just furthers my own resolve to stay. Like you, I'm growing sicker and sicker of seeing the constant stream of lies and bullshit about the president, the party, and the attacks against those who support either. I am very wary of the new "rules" system that basically turn this place into FreeRepublic with an asterisk ("*it's okay if you call yourself a progressive!")

But I'm just too big a stubborn asshole to toss in my towel.

be well, man

[Violet_Crumble]

110. I hope you reconsider and return to DU.

fwiw, I've been very critical of Obama's approach when it comes to dealing with Israel and the settlement issue, but I think DU's going to take a turn for the worse by not requiring that criticism of Obama be constructive....

[political_Dem]

111. I will miss your posts and your enlightening ideas. :(

But most of all, I will miss you as an active participant on DU. I truly do wish you the best whereever you go. Stay safe, be courageous and always search for enlightenment. Take good care. And thank you very much for sharing your wisdom with us. DU has been a richer board because of it.

:hug:

[gateley]

113. Will you leave a forwarding address?

Many of us want to come with you!

Thank you for being here for us. I wish you happiness and serenity. :pals:

[patrice]

141. grantcart, I will second this motion.

[BobTheSubgenius]

114. An odd thing to notice, perhaps, but...

...that's me, sometimes.

I see that, despite your imminent departure, you still contributed to the fund drive this quarter. Class.

Class, and no surprise.

See you on down the road, maybe. I'd be the richer for it.

[dave29]

115. take care

gc

:hug:

[DFW]

116. Though not following your path just now

I understand your sentiments, and wish your path to be one on which you are happy to find yourself.
As one of the more minor fish in the DU sea, I have had to endure far less abuse, but still see way
too much of it.

You must be singing Knopfler's song to yourself right about now:

Je suis désolé, mais je n'ai pas le choix
Je suis désolé, mais la vie me demande ça

[KT2000]

117. I'll miss you and

your posts. Best wishes and do come back.

[apocalypsehow]

118. I hate this, but somehow it doesn't surprise me. ........ . ..... .... ..... ... ... .. .....,

..... .. ........ . ..... ......., .. .... ... ...... .......... .... .. ...... .....

. .... .. ....... . .... ...... ... ...... .... . ..... ....... ... ..... ....... ... ....... ......; ...... ... . ..... .... ........ ..... .. .......... ....

., ...... .... ... .. ....... ... ...... ..... .. ........ ...., ... ........ ....., ........

......... ... ......, . ..... ... ....... ... ... .....

[nofurylike]

119. k&r. thank YOU, grantcart.

:grouphug:

[BlueMTexpat]

120. grantcart, please take some time off, get some R&R until you

feel rejuvenated ... and then come back. Your comments have invariably been insightful, kind and cleverly humorous. Such comments are all too badly needed these days.

From your brief description, I see that we have quite a lot in common (I even have relatives in Spokane!) and, I too, after living outside the USA at different periods in my life, usually found the US quite different upon my return - and never for the better, I'm sorry to say. But even though this last period beginning in 1994, was intended to be for a maximum of five years, it kept getting extended - fortunately for me. After the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004, I actively began for the first time in my life to search for alternatives to returning and was fortunate enough to be eligible to stay where I am now, in Europe.

I still love my beleaguered country. Most of my family, many close friends, my mixed-culture children and my mixed-race grandchildren live there still. So I will continue to work, wherever I may be, for what I believe in so that ALL my fellow citizens may have their lives improved. But it breaks my heart to stay in the US more than a few months at a time. There's just too much shouting - and sheer nastiness - rather than constructive dialogue. The trend is toward encouraging the dissonance by glorifying polarizing nutcases.

DU, for the most part, has helped me to realize that there are many Americans who feel as I do - an impression I never received from the mainstream media toadys - but those Americans do not have the great good fortune of choice, as I do. There will always be many more here like you, grantcart, than there will ever be who are not. And ultimately that is DU's strength. So please lurk a lot - at least that!

[BlueMTexpat]

121. Deleted as dupe

[SalmonChantedEvening]

123. Long may you run.

((((grantcart))))

:loveya:

[BigBearJohn]

124. You can check out, but you may never leave. Don't you know the rules?

Good luck, G.C. I enjoyed your posts.

[voteearlyvoteoften]

125. Please don't leave

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Remember that one?

[jerseyjack]

127. Walk away or stay and learn and and help us learn.

It's not about whether Obama delivered hope and change or failed. Its about dialog. Its about opportunities to grow, expand our horizons and maybe we'll all be better off for it.

More than that, its about ideas, visions and goals. If particular Democrats diverge from meeting community goals, we need to call them on it. No Democrat is sacred.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheKentuckian]

129. Peace and long life.

[ismnotwasm]

134. Damn

Miss you already.

May you have Peace and love all through your Life's journey

[cliffordu]

135. Your dog and wife just showed up at my place.

What should I tell them???

[myrna minx]

140. May the road rise to meet you. n/t

[Crystal Clarity]

147. What a depressing day

You will be missed grantcart. :-(

[Omaha Steve]

153. Another empty seat at the DU round table

I got an email telling me about this. I replied during the NU vs Texas A&M game. This was that important to me.

You will be missed for a long time.

K&R!

[LoZoccolo]

154. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9600934

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

156. I hope you're only going off the grid for a sabattical?

Please don't go away forever, Grantcart.

We'd miss you. I know its tiring being a thermostat instead of a thermometer, but
someone's gotta do it.

Well, please come back one day.

regards,
WYVBC