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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:42 PM
Original message
Dean says Obama ran as reformer, then surrounded himself with DC insiders.
Howard Dean and Ari Berman the author of Herding Donkeys, held a gathering at Burlington at the place where Dean's campaign began. He had some words of advice for Obama and the party.

A video is included at the WCAX link.

Here is more about the discussions there.

Howard Dean can still pack a room. His supporters crowded into the back of a downtown Burlington café to discuss how a midterm defeat for the Democrats will shift the balance of power in Washington -- and how the party could bounce back.

"Most of you from Vermont know me. I'm not exactly a raving liberal even though everyone thinks I am," said Dean.

..."In 2008, with Dean as chair of the Democratic party, President Barack Obama implemented this 50 state strategy and won. But Dean now says the president's switch to a more top down approach is hurting him.

"The president is a reformer," said Dean, "He ran as a reformer. So what's the first thing he does? He hires as his most senior people, people who have spent their entire careers in Washington. You explain to me how people who've spent their entire careers in Washington are going to change what goes on in Washington? It didn't happen."

And he says that's part of what went wrong for the Democrats in the midterm elections. Voters were disappointed with the extent of reform.

"We've got to get them to believe in politics again and right now the only person who can do that is Barack Obama," said Dean.


I find myself more and more thinking just how foolish we Deaniacs were in 2003 to think we could make a difference. And trust me, we really thought we could bring change to the party. Our group that made up his campaign here was most certainly not very liberal when we started out. We had our share of moderate Republicans and right-leaning Independents.

We tolerated being called fringe activists by party leaders, we got used to being shunned locally by the party establishment.

Looking back I see all the messages that we and others have tried to send for the last few years as our party kept going right....really were ignored.

Some of us still try to point out that the hard right turn is going on, but it still is not being heard.

Our home insurance went up over $50 a month this year, and we are supposed to be thankful we were not cancelled as so many were.

Our health insurance...well the bad news is still coming in. My insurance for sure will go up over $80 a month. Not sure yet on hubby's, but we suspect an over $100 a month increase.

They tell us there is no cost of living increase for seniors, but right there..my friends..is $230 a month increase. Maybe more to come yet.

I was just reading at Huffington Post about the deal Obama made with Big Pharma as the cost of being able to say they passed a health insurance plan.

Here is only part of it.



Compromise and deal-making...some of us are seeing the very expensive price of that right now.

Bernie Sanders was also at the Dean, Berman event. He was right as usual.

"I think compromise makes sense. But when the job of the Republicans in life is to see he gets nothing through, their job in life is to be the 'party of no,' their job is to say he's going to be a one term president and not cooperate, I think he's got to draw a line," said Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont.


Time to draw the line now. Stop the dismantling of education..do something about the 2 or 3 years that seniors will see no COLA in Social Security, stop right now and speak out about the two ding-a-ling chairs of the deficit commission who are going around and laughing up their sleeves about the pain they are planning for seniors.




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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. K & R Mad thanks,checkout this video when you get a chance please
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Just recommended it. I feel that guy's anger.
There's a loss of hope going around right now.
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ChiciB1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
93. And A Lot Of Fear That's Replacing It! Just Posted About MY Fear These Days. n/t
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Cal33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #93
138. There is still enough time for Obama to make a 180-degree turn,
and replace those departing DC-Insiders with left-leaning Democrats.
It's likely wishful-thinking on my part. But I'm not giving up hope
yet. He still has the chance of becoming one of the great American
presidents.
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
:kick:
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. That video says it all.
I like his attitude.Thank you.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yep, that's exactly what he did: Bait and switch.
:grr:
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Bait and switch is right - and a big reason people got so pissed off! nt
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Bait & Switch disguised as Hope & Change.
:mad:
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. +
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. +1
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
63. I think Obama will be a one term President ..If he continues with this
idea that he can gain Republican cooperation on key legislation..well then its over and we should have a real progressive challenge him..Actually I think Biden would be great(among others)
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molly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
76. It is the fascist system that is the problem.
How could one person just turn it all around..and with US history, I might add, stay alive.Don't forget that Obama put his life on the line when he vetoed the bill that would have given the banks total free reign to foreclose on Americans without following the law.Unanimously passed in the Senate. Homeowners have to make their payments and obey the letter of the law..dotting is' and crossing ts' but the banks pay our legislators a few thousand and break the law. Fascism.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
116. There's a difference between facilitating fascism and "turning it off -" ... !!
We have to stop allowing TPB to select our candidates --

nothing wrong with a Sanders/Dean ticket in 2012 --

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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
89. Sadly this is true
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jonthebru Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
139. He is not going to change.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
83. Carter tried change without DC insiders and he got ripped to shreds.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #83
117. Permanent role played by CIA/MIC -- they will try to rip apart any anti-war candidate ....
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 01:21 PM by defendandprotect
or president --

TPB couldn't exist without control within these organizations --

If you recall Carter's desert missions to rescue the hostages --

two or three helicopters going down? -- those missions were headed

up by Ollie North -- with Secord secod in command.

Seems they forgot to ensure that a device that keeps sand out of the

engines of the helicopters was in place! Oops!



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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. The only thing Ollie and Richard were good at was smuggling drug.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #129
132. Smugglin drugs .... and undermining Democratic presidents ... and the Constitution....
Ollie North was in charge of overturning the Constitution --
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Well, it did get him a show on right wing radio.
When right wingers rail about the ACLU, I remind them that it was the ACLU that kept Ollie from going to prison. They represented him Pro Bono.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Didn't know that either ... can you elaborate ... ????
Do know he's been a big financial success re security accessories --

Think this is the kind of guy the right wing is always looking for -- large part nut!

During his military service he evidently had a psycho episode -- running around with

his gun drawn. Don't know all the details of it.


:eyes:
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #135
141. Ollie could never measure up to the madness of G Gordon Liddy.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
134. And a Republican disguised as a Democrat.
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 08:51 PM by Jim Sagle
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Had I had any idea that Obama described himself as "New Dem" ....
I would not have voted for him --

Was very suspicous that he was DLC ... but evidently he was denying

that and distancing himself from them --- until after the election!!

Then he eloped into WH with DLC/Rahm!!

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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
140. someone called it hopium & I laughed but feel it's tragically
close. I thin the Pres. needs to carefully evaluate the people around him, recognize they are recommending taking the same known paths to failure & get rid of them so they can spend somee quality time with their families.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. I sure would've loved being at that gathering! Howard may not be as liberal as I am, but...
...he's a fighter - and he's so right about what went wrong. That's also covered in Ari's book, which I read and really enjoyed.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. I'm reading that book now.
I have Diane Ravitch's book on education going at the same time.

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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
36. was in Vermont when dean was gov'nor
he sure wasn't a flaming liberal, but he did okay by the state of Vermont (and so glad he's working with Shumlin)
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
45. Yeah, see that's the thing
I don't think anyone but Bernie Sanders is as left as me, but I want a fighter and Dean is a fighter.
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. Can you imagine a Dean/Grayson ticket?
The dream dem ticket. What would it take to get these guys to team and run?
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
90. Our support. That's all it would take. Obama will never
win a second term without us. We just have to get the guts to DO IT!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
120. I'm amazed that no Democrat has stepped forward to oppose Obama !!!
At this point, I'd like a RECALL!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #45
119. Love Bernie Sanders ... and I see him as a conservative ... cause that's what
liberal policies are in the end --

it is right wing agenda which is destructive and therefore not conservative in

the truest sense.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I knew he was a moderate and that's why I supported him.
But liberal or moderate the guy is a fighter. He is still the leader I compare others to.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm right with you on this one.
"I find myself more and more thinking just how foolish we Deaniacs were in 2003 to think we could make a difference."

I actually believed back then that many individuals working together could take on the corporate interests - and I wasn't a kid. I sure know better now.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. And we were ridiculed for believing that.
It was quite eye-opening to those of us who were pretty moderate. Our Republican friends in the group could laugh about it, but it soon lost its humor for some of us.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. Funny thing is that the Deaniacs that I knew were true fiscal
conservatives. They were not wild-eyed liberals at all, not at all. Some of them were disillusioned Republicans.

Strange how the media portrayed them (and us) as something so different from what they and we were and are. Anti-lies, yes. Progressive, yes. But not tax and spend types. They/we were people with our feet very much on the ground. I guess that was a dangerous message that had to be stopped even at the cost of ruining a great man's reputation.

The media acted irresponsibly in their coverage of Howard Dean.
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Especially Wolf Blitzer, who played the Dean scream over and over.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
98. Blitzer is a little asshole. Freaking phony bastard.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
118. Same program: Wolf Blitzer/Dean scream .... Ted Koppel/Nightline-Iran hostages ...
it's all right wing swiftboating --

with very little response from the left --

in fact, the DLC was part of the Dean swiftboating!!

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
71. Remember Eric Boehlert's 2004 Media vs Dean at Salon?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/01/13/dean_media

"Democrats haven't voted yet, but reporters have got the story: The former Vermont governor is angry, gaffe-prone and unelectable. How do they know? Republicans, and anonymous Democrats, told them so."
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. I don't think "moderates" were fans of Dean. It was the more progressive ones
who liked Dean.

I'm a moderate. I viewed Dean as "out there" and unelectable, although I liked him as a person. Much like Kucinich.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
96. As a moderate, what policies do you stand for?
I do not mean this as an insult but to clarify my question.

I have the impression that people consider themselves "moderate" if they just want to kind of go along with what the most powerful or what they think is the majority want. What does being "moderate" really mean.

What does being "moderate" mean with regard to extending the Bush tax cuts?

What does being "moderate" mean with regard to Social Security?

There are 192 countries in the United Nations. We have 740 (at least and known) bases overseas. We also have a lot of totally useless military defense contracts out there including some for the purchase of equipment that experts say are obsolete considering the changes in the way wars are fought. (See Chalmers Johnson's books.) What does being "moderate" mean when it comes to defense priorities?

What does being "moderate" mean when it comes to handing billions to the banks while foreclosing on ordinary homeowners?

What does being "moderate" mean in this time when our economy is changing due to new technology and private businesses have not yet adjusted their hiring needs to the demands of the new economy?

What does being "moderate" mean specifically -- when it comes to policy issues?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #96
113. I am left of center. Not far left. Not right of center.
That's what moderate means to me.

Someone who is right of center might consider himself moderate, also.

It's somewhere in the middle, from the slight left to slight right spectrum. On average, I fall slight left of center. That is because I am far left on one or two issues, actually on the "right" on one or two issues, and for the rest, I generally fall somewhere in the middle.

Another way you can tell a moderate is...progressives think you're a Republican in disguise, and Republicans think you're one of those lefty greenie "librals."

If I answered your questions about issues, it wouldn't clarify anything, since you don't mention enough issues. There are a lot of issues. You don't mention crime, for instance.

I can tell you're a progressive, I guess, because you refer to the people being foreclosed on as "ordinary homeowners." By definition, they are not "ordinary," in my view, since most people aren't being foreclosed on or in arrears. That makes them "extraordinary," by definition. Unless you meant that they were just average Joes, as people, in extraordinary circumstances.

BTW, the Republicans (the "average Joe" Republicans) are against the bank bailouts. So if you were against them, too...maybe that makes you a moderate on that issue.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. Just mention any issue. My list was supposed to be helpful, not exhaustive.
I want to know what a "moderate's" views are on the issues.

I used to be considered a moderate (not that long ago either). I have not changed my views on anything but now I seem to fall into the progressive or liberal category.

I would like to know how far to the right I would have to move in order to be able to call myself a moderate.

Actually, lots of the people being foreclosed are "ordinary homeowners." Many of them simply reached a stage in life in which it was time to buy a house during a housing bubble. We have lived in our house for many, many years, longer than all but a couple of people in our neighborhood. We are in no danger of foreclosure, but then, because of the length of time in which we have lived in our house, we are not "ordinary homeowners."

Being in arrears these days does not make a homeowner "extraordinary." Homeowners in arrears are not in the majority, but they are numerous enough to be very "ordinary." You just don't realize how many people are not making payments, just waiting for that foreclosure notice.

I consider the issues and take an informed, reasonable stance. And then I get labeled "left" for it.

So many moderates don't seem to have opinions at all. They are just moving with the crowd without thinking.

I want to know what issues you as a moderate think are important enough to have an opinion on. I would like to know whether maybe you and I actually agree on more than we disagree on. But I can't determine that unless you tell me your views.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #115
127. I don't need any help figuring out my views. As for what you want to know...
moderates are not as easily categorized as the groups on the end of the spectrum. It really does depend on the issue.

Yes, being in arrears does, by definition, make a homeowner "extraordinary." "ordinary" means most people. Most people are not in arrears or in foreclosure. That's a factual statement, not an opinion. So you may view them as ordinary, but factually, their circumstance is out of the ordinary. That doesn't make them bad, and it doesn't make it their fault, but just sayin'...since most people aren't in that situation, that situation is extraordinary, by definition. Most people who took out mortgages during the last 5 or so years are not in arrears or in foreclosure. Those are the ordinary homeowners.

I differ with you on your view on moderates. Contrary to what you think, moderates are in fact independent thinkers. While they swing with the left crowd on some issues, they (meaning me) feel free to go the opposite direction, when they conclude that is the correct position, even though it gets their Democratic (or Republican) friends angry. They don't go along with the crowd. They decide on their position, issue by issue.

Of course, many people claim to be "Independents" or belong to the other two major parties without giving much thought to any issue at all. Those would not be the people who post on political forums.

BTW, being a moderate is not the same as being an Independent, IMO. Being moderate is a reference to the averages of the stances taken on a variety of issues. You can be a Democrat or a Republican and be moderate. Being an Independent is a statement about the party one belongs to, or doesn't belong to, and refers more to a voting record, IMO. You can't be both a Democrat and an Independent, for instance.

I am very politically minded, so don't go thinking you're above me in that regard. I have an opinion on every issue that I have enough information on. And because I watch or read over 20 hours of political news every week, as well as participate in this forum full of informed people, I sort of have a handle on the information for most issues. Not all, but most. And what's different about a lot of moderates from those on the ends of the spectrum is that they, like myself, are more willing to say they don't have enough information, or to really think about an issue before taking a stand. They don't just take a position on reflex, like be for a tax on the rich w/o knowing how much or why, or be for increasing benefits for the poor w/o knowing what benefits, how much, will it be correctly handled, etc.

The downside to moderates is that they don't comfortably belong with an activist group. Activists are passionate, if anything, and they get things done. And sometimes it takes passion and bullheadedness to persevere and just get something done, without pausing to reflect. Sometimes that's needed. Like maybe now.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-21-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #127
142. I asked you a very direct question: what is your opinion on any issue,
one issue at least, hopefully more.

You do not provide a single opinion. Thus, I have to believe that, in fact, being "moderate" means either having no opinions on issues or perhaps being to inarticulate to state an opinion on an issue.

Of course, a final possibility is that, for some reason, you do not want to express one of your opinions.

How do you stand on gay marriage, for example? How do you stand on Don't Ask, Don't Tell? Surely you know where you stand on those issues.

DU is a place where we discuss our ideas and opinions. Generally, people are more definite in expressing their ideas and opinions here than just calling themselves "moderate." What does it mean in terms of specific policies to be "moderate"?

What is your view on the recently enacted Health Insurance Reform Act? Do you have an opinion on that?

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. We now have a right wing party and a radical right wing party... if you're in the center of that ...
it puts you on the right --!!
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. If you read my post, you know that I am on the left. So your post makes no sense.
I'm on the left, not far left on most issues.

I would probably be considered far left on environmental issues and animal rights. I would be considered on the right on crime issues, probably.

But I am by NO means a Blue Dog Democrat. I understand why Blue Dogs are the way they are...it's because their constituents are conservative and will vote ONLY for a Blue Dog Democrat or a Republican. But I'm not THAT moderate. They're practically Republican, but not quite, and won't go along with their Party in many instances, which I don't understand.

I am definitely to the left of center on most issues. Just not far left. I think most people would consider me a liberal.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. It's up to you to judge where you are ... all I'm saying is we have a right wing party and
a radical right wing party --

if you're on the left of all of that, obviously it's not in the center of all

of that --


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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. The operative term in Dean's speech is "right now." This is the first salvo in Dean's 2012 challenge
Edited on Thu Nov-18-10 06:21 PM by WinkyDink
You heard it here first.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. We don't deserve him.
After what the Dems did to him the first time they were lucky he took the DNC job. I find it hard to believe he would put himself through that again.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. well, maybe.
could be the first salvo in the re-branding of obama for 2012.

obama IS a reformer? i'd like to see more evidence of that.

it seems logical to me that anyone who has acted as obama has IS NOT a reformer
but a person pretending to be one.

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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Howard Dean still screams for me
So, the fifty-state strategy worked so well it was dismantled, and the Republicans have now co-opted it.

Keep talking, Gov. Dean. Some of us are still listening.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I want that bumbersticker. Howard Dean Screams for Me! :) nt
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. I'm listening and hoping.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. "I'm from the democratic wing of the Democratic Party."
I loved that line when it was spoken by a real raving liberal, Paul Wellstone. Now it's sullied as the line Dean used when pandering to liberal audiences. I guess Dean is back to being a centrist again, according to the quote above. He can never make up his mind.


Since that list doesn't include opposing the public option, does that mean all of those rumors about Obama trading it away to the pharma industry were false?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I take it you're not a Dean fan
One thing's for sure, he got shit done, didn't he? Not only in Vermont, but on a national level as head of the DNC.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. The PO give away was the deal he made with the hospitals. I want the Democratic Party Classic of FDR
"It was taken off the table as a result of the understanding that people had with the hospital association, with the insurance (AHIP), and others," former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D-SD) told Igor Volsky of Think Progress.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. A quote that Daschle later corrected.
He said there was no deal. But you already knew that.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
56. The take-back is 100% opposite what he wrote in his own book.
" In his book, Daschle reveals that after the Senate Finance Committee and the White House convinced hospitals to accept $155 billion in payment reductions over ten years on July 8, the hospitals and Democrats operated under two “working assumptions.” “One was that the Senate would aim for health coverage of at least 94 percent of Americans,” Daschle writes. “The other was that it would contain no public health plan,” which would have reimbursed hospitals at a lower rate than private insurers.

In addition, this acknowledgement lines up perfectly with the admittedly scant public record we have on the subject. Miles Mogulescu pursued this story at the Huffington Post for months, and Ed Schultz got an on-the-record confirmation from a reporter at the New York Times.

On Monday, Ed Shultz interviewed New York Times Washington reporter David Kirkpatrick on his MSNBC TV show, and Kirkpatrick confirmed the existence of the deal. Shultz quoted Chip Kahn, chief lobbyist for the for-profit hospital industry on Kahn’s confidence that the White House would honor the no public option deal, and Kirkpatrick responded:

“That’s a lobbyist for the hospital industry and he’s talking about the hospital industry’s specific deal with the White House and the Senate Finance Committee and, yeah, I think the hospital industry’s got a deal here. There really were only two deals, meaning quid pro quo handshake deals on both sides, one with the hospitals and the other with the drug industry. And I think what you’re interested in is that in the background of these deals was the presumption, shared on behalf of the lobbyists on the one side and the White House on the other, that the public option was not going to be in the final product.”"

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/10/05/the-deal-with-the-hospital-industry-to-kill-the-public-option/


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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
95. You're jumping around way too much.
I thought the deal was with pharma. Now it's with the hospitals? Which is it? Are we talking about two different deals? Why try to mix it all together?
And I constantly hear the complaint that the PO was "taken off the table from the start." But July wasn't the start. It was months after Obama introduced his plan with the PO.

Compromise and deal making are how Washington works. Obama saw that the PO wasn't going to pass the Senate and so he got the best he could to pass a bill. It's silly to go into hysterics and conspiracy theories about it. The Senate conservatives beat us on that issue and now we keep working for better.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Working for better???
The Republicans not only opposed improving the existing law, they are determined to really sink Obama and repeal it. This is their goal and they don't give a damn if it results in million of deaths. They would repeal SS and starve the seniors, outlaw unions and make unemployment benefits illegal. That is why I despise the ground that Republicans walk on. I wouldn't be too damn surprised Obama pulls a Johnson and declines to run.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #95
112. 2 deals. After big insurance gets their mandated trillions, nothing will be left in HCR
except the mandate and other items that favor the industry.

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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
111. "Corrected" wink, wink, nudge, nudge
How does a politician like Daschle make a public statement about a deal being made only to decide it was a "mistake".

You go ahead and believe he "mispoke" but the odds are he was told to retract what he said.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
122. Obama made back room deals with BOTH Big Pharma and private HC industry ....
I've posted reports on that repeated -- one in Rahm's own words in an interview--

and from NY Times reports --

If you want me to repeat them later - let me know!

Otherwise check my journal --

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
40. since Dean's 50-state strategy was so successful, and he has shown
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 06:23 AM by ima_sinnic
what a truly dedicated Democrat he is, it is not clear why you are so disdainful. :eyes:

The term "pandering" has huge application to the current WH occupant, so I'm not sure why Dean's apparent "pandering" by using the term "democratic wing" is so unforgivable (esp. when there is nothing false about it, actually disqualifying it as "pandering").
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
42. tough choice between pseudo reformer obama and pseudo liberal dean.
what's a pseudo radical activist to do?

oh wait, i know...support the person further to the right.
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. Lol !
:evilgrin:
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
68. Dean never claimed to be a liberal - he was branded as such
What he actually WAS and IS is someone who rejects the "golden-mean" fallacy and the false dichotomy between extremists on the right and moderates on the left. He is a pragmatist, and not in the sense of going-along to get-along, but in the sense of pragmatically seeking the best solution to our national problems.
I feel I have a lot in common with Dr. Dean. I had never considered myself much of a liberal until George Bush got in power, and I still don't think I am very liberal, but I realize that the "middle-path" as Buddah might call it doesn't lay halfway between the Democrats and the Republicans, but straight through the heart of the liberal wilderness.
In fact there are many people who are probably more liberal than me, more outspokenly feminist, more commited to minority issues advocacy, but who are less progressive because they are perfectly fine with staking out their little area of influence while the rest of the country crumbles around them.
I don't mean to attack those issues, and one can certainly be commited to liberalism in general and those issues in particular, but I guuess what I'm saying is that there is a strain in liberalism that seems to say that as long as we are safe in our ivory towers it doesn't matter if the barbarians have taken over everywhere else.
It's the kind of philosophy that leads us to protect our "safe" districts while ignoring potential gains across the board. You don't actually have to be very liberal to realize that you can't take second base if you are too afraid to leave first.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. Yes, Dean did claim to be liberal in front of liberal audiences.
Everyone knew that's what the Paul Wellstone line was about.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. link?
and Dean's overall policies, attitude, and approach to life are all "liberal." There is absolutely no point in arguing semantics. His values and perspective are decidedly classical Democrat. Are you implying that Howard Dean is somehow Republican? :rofl:

It is not clear why you soooo object to Howard Dean's claim to be representative of the democratic wing of the Democratic Party--he represents me and countless millions who are treated like "fucking retards" and have been shunned by the party, which has acted in a most undemocratic manner (there is now hardly any legislation in which American citizens actually have any say). I think that Paul Wellstone would agree, Dean's claim is spot-on.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #86
94. Link to what? Are you denying he used the Wellstone line?
Are you kidding me?
Look around DU. Dean is referred to as a liberal constantly. Why is there so much confusion? Why is he a leader of the left one day and a centrist the next? He used Paul Wellstone's line as a deceptive way to call himself a liberal without using the word. It worked very well.
Dean's political leanings may change from week to week, but the constant is that he's a phony.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. a "phony" in what way?
seriously, as a Dean fan since, oh, about 2001, I'd like to know what I'm missing.

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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #78
114. Oh... that's what that was about,
I thought he was saying that he was going to fight for his beliefs.

I guess you have to read between the lines to get the interpretation that you want.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
79. I'll support the one who has the most progressive record of accomplishment
of any President in the past 40 years.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
50. Oh Radical! You're my new BFF!
Seeing as how I lost my bad bromance recently...I now have you!

You're the best!!!
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
58. So you're admitting the PO was simply a campaign lie, then?
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 10:30 AM by Edweird
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #58
80. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand.
Obama proposed a plan with the PO. It was blocked by Senate Republicans and conservative Democrats. He compromised for the best he could get and promised to work for more. That's how our political system works. The fits, conspiracy theories and grudges people are still having over that are silly. The solution was to get a better Senate but people seem more interested in belly aching about Obama.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #80
102. I don't see that way.
He was determined to get a health bill regardless of how damn shitty it was. He thought that if he failed he would look bad. The fact of the matter is that he compromised himself into looking like a miserable wimp. He should have vetoed the damn piece of crap and gone to the American public, who incidental were for a comprehensive plan, and called out the obstructionists in the Democratic Party and the entirety of the Republican Party.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #80
124. No ... Obama made back room deals with the private HC industry ... no single payer --
There are NY Times reports on this --

and Rahm "crows" about it -- i.e., Obama's having "preserved the PRIVATE health

care system" --

If you haven't seen those articles check my journal or let me know and I'll post

them for you!

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
137. You're confused. Dean never claimed to be a liberal. Not one damn time.
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 09:06 PM by Jim Sagle
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent OP K & R.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R....n/t
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. No argument here...
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Poboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
27. Your vote: +1
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. Brava!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Congressman Joe Wilson? Is that you? n/t
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 12:50 AM by RufusTFirefly
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
88. No it's John Kerry
who Dean couldn't stop lying about in 2004.
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ProgressiveLiberal Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. James - see the world for what it is. Stop holding on to lies fed to you -
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 02:56 AM by ProgressiveLiberal
help us make the world a better place.
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
87. But you're holding on to the lies of Dean nt
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ProgressiveLiberal Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #87
101. You're repeating yourself - the mods deleted your anti-Democratic post the last time you said that.
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 05:02 PM by ProgressiveLiberal
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JamesA1102 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. And Dean repeated many lies
Remember when he claimed that he voted against the Iraq war authorization bill until someone pointed out that he wasn't a member of congress.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
31. Regarding the Colas: The meme is that we are not seeing inflation.
But the fact is that food prices are going up, up, up. Look at the size of the packages of food. On an increasing number of items, the price remains what it was some months or even a year ago, but the size of the package is smaller.

The poverty level is calculated, as I understand it, based on the cost of food. I wonder if the cost of food is calculated based on the unit prices or the price per weight. I wonder how that works.

Of course, the cost of insurance is rising very rapidly because the insurance companies make their money, not just from our premiums but also from investments in the stock market. My guess is that, while the Dow has risen recently, the losses that were taken in the stock market a couple of years ago are still affecting our economy and the situation of the insurance companies. Recognition of some of the losses may have been delayed. Certainly, raising premium prices to make up for the losses is taking place now.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
35. K & R nt
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
37. Not just insiders but republican insiders.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
39. Howard Dean is right.
President Obama did exactly as Dean stated....surrounded himself with insiders. Those certainly aren`t the go-to people when the goal is change.

I`ve been chuckling for years now listening to corporate media call Howard Dean a liberal. He`s not. In fact, on the fiscal side of things he`s probably closer to a true conservative. Howard Dean is a truth-teller, no matter who is in the room with him. That`s what riles the establishment. He says what he means and means what he says and he can not be bought.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. And that-...
"He says what he means and means what he says and he can not be bought." is why I like Howard Dean.
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12AngryBorneoWildmen Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
46. Why is the possibility of Obama and his family being victims of extortion,
to make him "behave", never discussed. The dark forces are and have been capable of limitless evil; e.g. killing and maiming (that last word should be in all caps) thousands of our troops for more oil money for the few. This group wouldn't blink at threatening bodily harm to little girls.:evilgrin:
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
47. Am I smelling a possible candidacy here?
Probably wishful thinking on my part, but still . . .

Thanks again, MF.
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Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
48. Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.....
Hoping that this is the presidents intention.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
49. Politifact broken promise No. 71: Allow imported prescription drugs
Broken by the #2 concession
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
52. He needed experience on day 1.
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 09:26 AM by moondust
Economy falling apart, two wars, etc. dumped in his lap. I don't think he had much choice but to bring some (willing) people in who knew the ropes and hope they got it right.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. Obama needed the insider-bankers because of their technical skills
I didn't think the plan would work, but Geitner pulled it off. The unemployment rate* could have hit the teens or twenties.

*Offical employment rate, to preempt "those" comments. I remember Youngstown with 50% unemployment for most of the 1980s.
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Shining Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
54. K&R
:thumbsup:
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
55. We were bamboozled.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
57. "Dean says...
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 10:04 AM by ProSense
From the OP:

<...>

Dean says he stands behind the President and believes the Democrats can still recover, but has no plans to launch his own campaign. He may not be challenging the president in 2012, but did predict that Mitt Romney -- the former Massachusetts governor -- would be a shoe-in for the republican nomination.


Dean's latest comments here.




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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
59. This is the time to say it. Obama is currently trying to sell the idea that the election results
Edited on Fri Nov-19-10 10:26 AM by Marr
were the result of his having been too responsive to liberals.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
60. Yes He Did
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
61. Recommended. nt
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
64. "surrounded himself with DC insiders"
You could say that...


K&R
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
65. Rec...nt
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
66. Let Them Eat Oil - The Bi-Partisan Path to the Gulf Catastrophe
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
97. I will never forget how they have ignored the harm to the Gulf
and to all surrounding residents.

It is like they all waved a magic wand with the permission of the administration, and said all was well.

It is a sin what has been covered up, and Democrats are doing it as well as Republicans.

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
67. Recommend
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
69. K+R
Time to get back to basic Democratic principles. NOW.
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
70. If Obama compromises and lets the rich
keep their tax cuts, I will actively support any primary challenge campaign against him and hopefully it will be Howard Dean.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
73. Even during the primaries...

it was obvious where this train was going, the list of advisors at that time set off all the alarms. Lie down with pigs.......

That line will not be drawn, we are headed for a headlong capitulation to most every ruling class wet dream that you can imagine.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
75. Mr. Dean, please save us from the Corporatistas
Please primary that Corporate Stooge bum out off office in 2012 and help us take back the country that the rich have STOLEN from us!

Please, please, please!
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Yeahyeah Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
77. Howard Dean should be President.
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Jansen Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. Agreed, YES!
100% agreement.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
81. He ran as a centrist with catchy liberal slogans which were discarded when elected.
However, he did keep one of his promises: To escalate the lost war in Afghanistan.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
84. Hell yes he did.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
85. I recall that Liberals on this sight were expressing this concern from day one.
The Liberals and pro-reform Moderates were correct and the centrist/excuse making wing of the party was dead wrong.

Sighhhhhhhh- AGAIN.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. It's hard being Cassandra...
"In Greek mythology, Cassandra (Greek Κασσάνδρα, also Κασάνδρα, Κεσάνδρα, Κατάνδρα,<1> also known as Alexandra<2>) was the daughter of King Priam and Queen Hecuba of Troy. Her beauty caused Apollo to grant her the gift of prophecy. In an alternative version, she spent a night at Apollo's temple, at which time the temple snakes licked her ears clean so that she was able to hear the future. This is a recurring theme in Greek mythology, though sometimes it brings an ability to understand the language of animals rather than an ability to know the future.<3> However, when she did not return his love, Apollo placed a curse on her so that no one would ever believe her predictions. She is a figure both of the epic tradition and of tragedy, where her combination of deep understanding and powerlessness exemplify the tragic condition of humankind."

What's even more frustrating is trying to get people to think outside of their tiny little boxes when contemplating the potential end of the Earth as a viable habitat thanks to Vampire Capitalism...

Obama's just a symptom...
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
91. Haven't listened yet, but agree. To be fair, he may have wanted to be sure he
had 'experience' in the room with him, in an effort (over-cautious?) to do it right.

My sense is he had Biden with him whose experience is vast and represented a lot of what Obama wanted to do, and maybe he should have deferred to Joe a little more in the beginning. Not that I know he DIDN'T, but there seemed to be an initial rough patch where he didn't fully recognize what Joe could bring. He put plans for Afghanistan on hold due to Biden's urging, so it appears he's come to trust him.
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marew Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
103. Dean is right-- again! n/t
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de novo Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
104. Recommend.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
105. You mean Geithner, Summers, Gates, LaHood, Holder, Duncan and Vilsack?
:(
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de novo Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Clinton and Betrayus, too.
But the Van Jones', Sharrod's and Samatha Power's get dropped at the slightest hint of pressure.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. And Salazar...
Yeah, it's sickening which ones got dropped.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #105
126. Imagine how much more damage can be done in next two years ...!!!
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
107. TOO BAD
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
108. Obama may have run as a reformer, but there was never any evidence
that he was a reformer. What reform has he ever done? He never had a history of that. People (especially those running for president!) should be judged by their deeds, and not just their words with nothing backing them up. I never believed that Obama was a person who would institute great change because that is not in his background. People got caught up in the chanting and the amorphous change message that his campaign was putting out there and now a lot of people are disappointed. It was bound to happen, and in fact was quite predictable.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
123. Obama surrounded himself with the same questionable people
that got us into economic disaster as GWB did...hell did he EVER fix the JD or is Dickless Cheney still running things from the Pentagon basement? I never thought Dems could be any less effective than when Kerry ran in 2004 and practically gave GWB another four years...boy was I wrong! I knew after the character assassination on Dean, that nothing was going to change and that the 'powers that be' will kill us all off for $$$ and then lie to the remainders some more!
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
125. kick, but it's too late to rec!
And in other news....it sometimes gets hot in the summer.
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TfG Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-20-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
130. Howard Dean is right
Edited on Sat Nov-20-10 05:56 PM by TfG
People wanted change and Obama campaigned on change and not being part of Washington, yet he hired many Washington insiders.

Dean deserves a lot of credit for the 50 state strategy. It was very effective, imo. We need someone like Dean in the White House.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
143. ..
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