Should teachers make "on-the-spot corrections" of verbally/physically abusive students?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Sometime kids do act violently and I honestly wonder if knowing they can act with near impunity or negligible punishment actually entices them to do so.

Let's face it, if the kid doesn't care about his education and the parents don't care about the kid what good would a suspension do?

I can imagine if a kid started mouthing off to a teacher and calling her a "f***ing whore" in front of the class maybe the teacher would have the right to rap him in the mouth, in front of the class even.

I can then imagine the parent coming in all huffy demanding the teacher's head on a pike.

But what if the principal looked at the teacher from across the desk and said, "After speaking with witnesses your child was acting in an abusive manner. I will not discipline the teacher."

Now if the teacher was just being a jackass I'd say fire the teacher.

But do we want a blanket policy or do we want things decided case-by-case?



DISCLAIMER: I mouthed off to my teacher once...once. It wasn't the teacher but rather my father who "made known his thoughts" that such behavior was unacceptable.

My butt hurts just to remember it.

[Le Taz Hot]

1. Unrec.

for dishonest choices.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. I think I'm fairly immune to the effects of unrecs

That isn't to say your reflex observation is unfair but I was simply attempting to inject a hint of light-heartedness into an otherwise very serious topic.

[Le Taz Hot]

3. Then pardon me if I missed the humor.

:shrug:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Maybe it was just my up-bringing

My dad had rules and he wouldn't budge but he also had a sense of humor. He would joke about selling me but being afraid they'd give me back.

The subject of selling children is, on its face, very unfunny but (like my OP) shouldn't context matter?

Maybe the words aren't to your liking but the choices are clear enough: yes/no/maybe

I'm not mad about your concerns but why dismiss a valid question over semantics?

[Le Taz Hot]

11. I see it as framing and not semantics.

The answer to your last question is that I (personally, as in One Person) tend to respond better to serious posts about serious subjects and, at that, I think I'm ready to move on to other topics.

Peace,

LTH

[uppityperson]

74. Advocating physically assaulting someone to teach them manners is "light hearted"?

I can see having a blanket policy of some sort but hot physically assaulting them. You don't have to resort to force, but you do have to use the tools at your disposal.

[MadHound]

5. Morally I can't advocate hitting a child,

However practically one can't deny the effectiveness of such actions in certain circumstances. I had an algebra teacher when I was in ninth grade, back in the mid-70's. Mrs. T was what was commonly known among the kids as a battleax of a teacher. She was actually a very good teacher, and made a dull subject interesting and kept us all learning. But she also had no problems with discipline. The reason, well, her reputation. She had started her career in the local segregated school back in the early fifties, and it was well known that at one time she had knocked ninth grade boy out cold with one blow because he had cussed her out and threatened her, not to mention that she had chased a girl around the gym and down the halls to the principle's office with a large piece of wood because the girl had done the same.

We did not cross her, period. She was built like a tank and her reputation proceeded her. I, along with many other students, found her to be a funny, caring teacher despite her gravel-growl voice and rough demeanor. But we did not cross her, we wanted to live to make it to high school.

I don't advocate hitting a student, but I do feel that students are lacking in that sort of respect for teachers these days. Not all of them, not even most of them. But a large enough number recognize that they can get away with murder using intimidation and there is little that a lot of teachers will do about it.

But you don't have to resort to force, but you do have to use the tools at your disposal. Being a large guy, I have little trouble with students because I loom over all of them. But more to the point I also figure out what the students' weak points are. For instance I had one student who was having trouble academically, not because he was dumb, but because he wasn't motivated. We had his mom's phone number and I had called her repeatedly, but she was simply unavailable in her son's life. I did a bit of snooping around amongst the students and found out the real authority figure in his life was his grandmother, so I called her. That call changed his entire year around. He did not want his grandma on his case, so he actually buckled down and started studying. Other kids, you hit them through their athletic participation or other such extra-curricular activity.

I was threatened once, by a kid who was almost as big as I was and had been held back two years. I looked him dead in the eye and told him that yes, he would get the first blow in, but after that, all bets were off and I was not only legally able to strike back in self defense, but would beat the daylights out of him. It worked, and we actually had a very good relationship the rest of the year.

No, you shouldn't backhand a student, as tempting as it is sometimes, but you also simply cannot allow your authority and position as a teacher to be undermined. It renders you impotent and does a huge disservice to the rest of your students. We've all been in those classes where the students were allowed to run wild, not matter what the weak-kneed teacher tried to do. It was fun for us at the time, but did we learn? Probably not. Classroom discipline and maintaining classroom order is just as important as the curriculum, and without it, you simply cannot teach. Therefore, you've got to figure out how to control the students' behavior without physical force. You've got to figure out what pushes their buttons, what brings about a response, what is important in their life. But whatever you do, don't let yourself be run over, otherwise all is lost.

[blueamy66]

17. Awesome post.

Amen.

[montanto]

42. This is a great response.

I agree completely. I know that there are some families that still handle discipline physically, and I'm not judgmental about that as long as its in bounds, but it isn't a teacher's job to patch up shoddy classroom management with arbitrary physical discipline. After 13 years in some really tough inner-city L.A. high schools I find that it is possible to maintain order where there isn't any otherwise without using physical force. Sometimes it comes down to a bluff, like the one described in your post, but even more it is just consistency. Always demanding, always expecting, never slipping, and never playing favorites goes a long way. When that fails, the bluff works (at least it does for me. At 6'2" and 220 pounds I've never had any takers on who would be the last man standing).

[harun]

80. I fail to see the correlation between maintaining the persona of

an iron fisted dictator and service to students.

If the students don't want to learn let them not learn, give them an F, if disruptive, kick them out.

All of this leads to a society of subservience, and the allusion that some know better and should be the "administrators" and "bosses" of others. Instead of a society of Liberty and mutual respect and dignity.

Once a teacher is in a role of assumed authority it is hard for them to transition out of it. They always feel they know more, and that others must submit to them to "learn". It is the reason we have all these crazy administration reforms going on. To take the decision making away from the teachers and putting it in others hands. Because taking this role of authority screws them all up. They can't deal with people on an equal level anymore. Left to their own devices the teachers won't work with parents to implement what the parents want, the teachers feel they are superior to the kids and the parents and try to teach them both. Instead of simply talking with them about what objectives should be reached.

Fail.

[MadHound]

88. I don't get your "iron fisted dictator" part, but let me address your other points

You want to maintain discipline and respect in your classroom for a number of reasons. First of all, it is vital to have in order to teach. You can't effectively teach with even one kid being disruptive, period. Because if you have one, soon you will have more.

Yes, you could kick that kid out for being disruptive, but that is doing a huge disservice to that kid. This is their education at stake, and if you kick them out, deprive them of that education, you are relegating them to a life at the bottom of society. Is that what you want?

Furthermore, since it is decreasingly taught at home, discipline and respect has to be taught at school. Again, if a child fails to learn these lessons, they will be negatively impacted as an adult. If you're disruptive and a smartass in school, you suffer consequences such as detention or visiting the principle. If you never learned from that, and are disruptive and a smartass in the working world, you lose your job and slide down the socioeconomic ladder.

In addition, kids, especially in the middle school grades, are testing boundaries, boundaries in school, boundaries in society. If you don't set firm boundaries, they will not learn these lessons and again, it will adversely effect them in later life.

Liberty, dignity, and mutual respect are well and grand, but they are concepts that have to be taught, part of that great gray area of non-curriculum lessons that teachers pass on to students. Those concepts don't magically appear in a child's conscience, they have to, like everything else, be taught. It used to be that parents taught most of these lessons, but that role is being increasingly taken over by teachers as parents continue to shirk their responsibilities in raising their children.

What you are looking for is a utopian society, where there are no classes, no bosses, no distinctions. That is nice in theory, but what happens in reality is anarchy and chaos result, until somebody, benevolent or otherwise, takes on a leadership position, a position of authority, and imposes some sort of order. It is a nice idea on paper, but it simply doesn't work in real life.

If you think that you can control a classroom without establishing discipline, boundaries and respect, you are more than welcome to try it for yourself. Please let me know when you do, because I would love to be there in order to film the look on your face as you run out of the room screaming. You wouldn't last a day.

[ecstatic]

6. If the kid is that unruly, dismiss him/her, call for security

if s/he doesn't leave.

[JVS]

7. Are you trying to justify Curtis getting slapped?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. I honestly don't know what precipitated the incident or even...

...the incident actually occurred.

Maybe Curtis was being verbally or physically abusive to his teacher.

I don't know.

I would like to think if a teacher, Curtis' or otherwise, would be allowed to physically defend his or her person against a student who was being violent. Any person should be allowed to defend their person from violent assault and I don't think a student-teacher relationship abrogates that right.

Verbal abuse should probably hold a different standard. But even that may require exceptions depending on circumstances. What if a fire drill was going off and some student didn't want to evacuate. Should they be physically removed for their own safety?

But that whole case-by-case musing then opens up the possibility that maybe, just maybe, a student had it coming if they get rapped in the mouth for some of the horrific stories we've heard over the years.

It's hard to say I'm trying to justify it because I'm genuinely curious as to whether it would be justified.

In all honesty, though, I do feel myself drifting away from blanket permissions AND blanket prohibitions.

[wo ooo]

83. Curtis(c)

I do believe restraint is okay though,
although i'm not really sure exactly what constitutes restraint, vs. physical abuse.
i've heard people say "grabbing their wrists and holding them", but that sounds quite abusive

[baldguy]

8. If a person might choose with violence in a social situation, they don't belong outside in public.

(Barring a diagnosed emotional instability - which can be dealt with given proper training.) That goes for adults and children, teachers and students, in school and out of school.

[bluetrain]

9. You want teachers to have the right to physically assault students? Really?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. Define asault.

Seriously.

If a person fights back against an attacker it isn't assault. No law and no jury would/could/should prosecute for beating back a violent attacker.

Maybe verbal abuse is different but suppose some kid walked up to a woman on the street and lobbed a racial perjorative at her. How much culpability would we assign to the woman if she hauled off and smacked him?

If it isn't acceptable on the streets why should we tolerate it in schools where honest teachers and students are trying to be about honest work?

[uppityperson]

75. Here is an example "if a kid started mouthing off to a teacher and calling her a "f***ing whore"

"if a kid started mouthing off to a teacher and calling her a "f***ing whore" in front of the class maybe the teacher would have the right to rap him in the mouth,"

That is assault.

"suppose some kid walked up to a woman on the street and lobbed a racial perjorative at her. How much culpability would we assign to the woman if she hauled off and smacked him"

This is also assault and unacceptable.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

90. I'm trying to find something but my workload and googe-fu are not helping

But I seem to recall a case c. 1930's where some guy was ranting, calling his detractors all sorts of hideous names and someone busted him in the mush.

The court threw out the conviction claiming the victim had it coming because no reasonable person would have tolerated the insults and slurs.

[northernlights]

10. yes, but with limitations

Mouthing off should not result in escalation to physical violence.

But the teacher should be able to have the kid removed from the class immediately -- and the kid should be punished immediately in some way that means something.

And if the kid becomes violent, the teacher should have the right (and training) to immediately restrain so as to protect self and rest of classroom. And kid should again be *immediately* removed and punished in a way that has some meaning.

One out of control kid should not be allowed to interrupt or destroy the rest of the classes education, let alone destroy the teacher's authority in the classroom. Period.

[elehhhhna]

43. My teacher neighbor said last noght that the law

doesn't allow them to "isolate" students -- disruptive, mentally ill, general jackasses, etc., and so the admin. will not allow the same set of 6 jerks who disrupt lunchtime EVERY DAY to be removed to another room. Their answer to this is to punish the entire group who takes lunch at that time. 100 kids on lunchtime prisonlike restrictions because of a small group of instigators.

[knitter4democracy]

12. I'm a teacher in an alternative high school. I know violence in the classroom.

I've broken up fights, made kids stay back with just a look and a hand up so they can't hurt another student, and faced down a gang trying to hurt one of my kids. Never, ever, ever have I ever been tempted to hit a student, not in defense of myself or other students, and I have never needed to. None of my colleagues have ever needed to.

I've been called everything under the sun. You know how I handle it? I laugh it off, remind them that they need to stay respectful so that we can all learn, and if they refuse, I walk them down to the office and write them up. It does work--I've had big gangbangers bashfully apologize to me in front of their friends, and I've had wildcat hard-core fighters stop themselves and redirect their own behavior with just a look.

Teachers do not need to use violence ever. The restraint options we have work just fine, thank you, and frankly, I'm refusing to vote in your poll for the disingenuous choices.

[blueamy66]

18. I interned in an alternative junior high school...

and got punched in the face trying to break up a girl fight. Lost a great deal of hair too.

What do you suggest one does in that situation? Walk a crazed, pissed off teenager to the office? After I pulled her off of another crazed, pissed off teenager? Yeah, that would have worked. NOT.

What world do you live in? Gangbangers bashfully apologizing? "Remind them that they need to stay respectful so we can all learn"????

Sorry, but I cannot relate.

[knitter4democracy]

19. I don't wade into girl fights.

That's asking for trouble. Since we're a high school and have big guys, if we can't get the girls off each other (has happened--they're always the worst fights), we ask one or two of the big guys nearby to reach in and pull them off each other. If the guys say no, we remove all other students from the area and wait until they tire out or break apart and then get them.

Our biggest tool is stopping things before they start. We're a smaller school and all are very aware of what's going on, and if we hear anything, we're running. Most of our fights never actually start or started with yelling and a shove before we break it up.

We do walk our crazed, pissed off teens to the office--one goes there, another goes to a secure room with one of us to guard and make sure s/he doesn't leave to start it up again, and any others involved get separated, too. These kids know we're their last chance at a diploma and usually settle down after some reminders and a chance to cool off.

Yes, I've had gangbangers apologize to me. A lot of it is that I work hard on developing relationships and their respect. They know when they've crossed the line, and they've apologized for it.

[blueamy66]

20. Let me understand this...

when 2 girls are beating the shit out of eachother, you just ask a big guy to intervene? We didn't have alot of big guys and they weren't just hanging around.

Not to be a B**CH, but my experiences and yours are quite different.

Kids these days, in alt schools, are outta control....maybe I should have spent more time with them....I was only there for one year. Worked with the Probation Officer who had an office on the campus.

Maybe I'm just jaded and don't like kids. :-)

[knitter4democracy]

22. Not all alternative schools are the same.

I subbed in all of the ones in the area before getting a job at my current one (home with sick kids today). There's one in the area I would never go to again. Ever. They've made it like a prison, and the kids act like it. Awful, awful place for everyone. We get a lot of kids escaping from there.

We've worked hard to set up an environment that's caring and respectful in which the students are expected to be caring and respectful as well. I'm not saying we don't have fights (we do) and don't have problem kids (we have many this year), but we react differently and don't act like it's a police state. That attitude alone yields different results, from what I've seen at the other schools.

It sounds like you were in a bad school. I know I couldn't handle an alternative junior high. I don't do well with junior high kids as it is. I do better with our students (aged 16-21).

We had a girl fight erupt right in front of two of us, and when they wouldn't be redirected at all and started in on each other, we asked two big guys nearby because the two of us in there are rather small and would just have gotten hurt. The guys were okay with it and reached around, grabbed them by the waists and pulled them up and over their shoulders, breaking them apart. Then we went in and got them in separate rooms, and I got to clean one of them up. It's not like I don't know what you're talking about, just that I know my limitations and don't wade into girl fights. Guy fights are easier to break up, so I don't mind handling those, but I'm not about to get between two girls.

[blueamy66]

25. I was young and thought I could change the world,

so I dove in, head first, and paid for it. :-)

I feel for kids that come from "bad" homes....I could tell which ones they were...they would cling to me....I just think that our schools are outta control and the kids are as well.

I don't have any children, but I have a soon-to-be step child that is 18 and going to college and I HOPE TO GOD HE STAYS ON THE STAIGHT AND NARROW.

Oh, if I could go back and work in that alt school again....


best wishes to you....

[knitter4democracy]

27. I once waded right into a gang fight and got ahead of the teacher line.

Stupid rookie mistake. I hear ya. Once I almost waded into a girl fight when I was 8 months pregnant and only got stopped by my dept. head who yelled at me about liability.

It's easy to get caught up in the moment, but it's the good teacher who stays calm in the midst of insanity erupting all around him/her. I always try to be that teacher.

I've also found that many kids from terrible situations push away instead of cling. They just can't trust another adult after being hurt so many times.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. Hitting children is no better than hitting adults.

I'm always intrigued that people who would normally never dream of legalising physical assault think "the victim was a child" is a mitigating factor.

[TBF]

14. Unrec - violence is not the answer.

And I consider it violence no matter what the situation - whether it's kids, teachers or parents doing the hitting.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. Or you could have just voted "no".

It was an option, after all, so it's not like your answer wasn't anticipated and provided for.

sheesh, some people are tso touchy

[TBF]

62. Look this is just more right-wing garbage that we really don't need.

And yes I will unrec that sort of thing whenever I see it, with an explanation as to why.

[blueamy66]

15. I voted for the "little bastard had it coming".

I cannot believe the shit that kids get away with these days.

If I got in trouble at school, I got it at home as well.

I'm not advocating beating a kid, but come on people.....this is getting ridiculous....lawsuits, violence against teachers and the like....learn how to PARENT!!! Don't make excuses for your little darlings. Jeez

[Kaleva]

16. Getting beat in school by a teacher warranted another beating at home...

for causing trouble in school.

[blueamy66]

81. Yeppers.

Me too.

[Starry Messenger]

21. Uh no.

There's a process for moving kids that disruptive to alternative schools. That is never "ideal", but the utter chaos of an environment where a teacher could whap kids? No. If you are ever finding yourself tempted to strike someone at your job, you should probably think of another line of work.

There can be problems if the administration will not back up a teacher's authority in the classroom though. I am really lucky at my school, but I've heard some bad stories. Hitting people would not fix those problems though.

[surrealAmerican]

23. Your example is a particularly bad one.

What exactly does it teach the class when a teacher hits a student for "mouthing off"?

Some students might actually think what the teacher did was acceptable behavior. Their lesson learned:
Physical violence is a good way to deal with verbal attacks. (Do we really want the children to emulate this behavior?)

Some students will learn that their teacher is a scary person. This will not help them concentrate on other lessons in class. It's harder to trust somebody you're afraid of.

This situation is a good opportunity to model non-violent methods of diffusing anger. The teacher ought to be capable of handling a verbal attack verbally. By doing so she/he will demonstrate to the class a more humane way to cope with such attacks.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. I respectfully disagree

After the ass-whippin' I got I was definitely of the mind that whatever I might want to say to my teacher didn't not carry the same weight as the level of physical discomfort it would cause me.

In short: I was scared.

And I was scared my teacher would call my father yet again so i did everything in my power to remain in his good graces.

In short: I was scared of my teacher.

I still managed to graduate HS with straight A's.

I wonder though, if I had been allowed to mouth off to my teacher would I have made those A's or would I have dug myself into an ever deeper hole?

[surrealAmerican]

46. ... but, in your case, the teacher didn't hit you.

She/he took the appropriate action of calling you parent.

It's NOT a question of either hitting a child or letting them do whatever they want.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. But what if my dad hadn't dealt with me?

What if my behavior continued to get worse and more abusive?

[surrealAmerican]

52. We'll never really know the answer to that ...

... or to the question of, "what if your father had taken some action other than the alarmingly abusive one he chose?" (like perhaps grounding you, or taking away other privileges, or having you write an apology).

Maybe you would have escalated your bad behavior, maybe not. My guess is that, since you apparently had the ability to be an A student, you eventually would have seen that misbehaving in school was not some big advantage to you.

[LWolf]

24. On the spot corrections? Yes. Assault as correction? No.

I'm not going to slap one of my students, anywhere, for any transgression. The closest I would ever get to a physical "correction" would be to restrain a student who was attempting to harm himself or others until help arrived.

I've never had to do that, and I'm grateful. It might have happened once about 30 years ago, when a student threw a chair at my head, but it was in the school office and the office staff and admin ushered him into the principal's office, while I picked myself, and the chair up. The chair didn't hit me. I ducked. (Why did he throw the chair? I was cruel enough to point out that someone else had checked out a book from the library before he got to it.)

Legitimizing physical abuse of students by teachers is a terrible idea. Learning requires feeling a certain level of safety in the classroom. Knowing that the person who is supposed to be keeping you safe can slap you around does not raise the perception of safety.

[blondeatlast]

26. Hell no. I taught eighth-graders, mostly boys, during my student teaching stint. We had a very e

effective discipline program and I was told, and expected, to be very tough with it from day 1. I never, ever felt the desire to respond to violence with violence. I never hesitated at all to apply the discipline program--nor did I ever hesitate to call a parent.

Please don't take up teaching.

[Xicano]

28. When I was a child in grade school we got sent to the principle's office for corporal punishment

But they had to call one of your parents first. I guess my Mom always told him to give it to me good because he wouldn't use the typical ping pong paddle on me like other kids. He'd use this big wooden paddle with holes drilled in it. LOL

:evilgrin:

[xchrom]

29. i can't fairly answer this since i went to school in a very different time.

teachers could spank us -- and with paddles too.
so could the principal.

and women teachers ejected students without dropping a stitch.

my favorite teachers were almost always older women who brooked no offenses in class at all -- and if you were sent out
your parents were called. and your parents had to come to school right then and there.

let me tell you-- calling a parent in from their job to get a dressing down from the principal because their child was unruly?
oy -- there was hell to pay.

all i can say is -- i don't know anything else -- and we all had to put up with the same stuff.

so there it is -- right or wrong.

[bemildred]

30. Violence teaches violence.

Teachers, just like anyone, are allowed to defend themselves. Disruptive students should be removed from the classroom situation, physically if necessary. And that is it as far as the use of force.

[madrchsod]

31. i voted no but....

i was in grade school in the 50`s where it was acceptable.

knowing there was a paddle with the holes drilled in it was a deterrent for most kids.

[lightningandsnow]

32. Teachers should not hit students, ever.

Under a policy like this, I would have probably gotten hit. Not because I was abusive, but because I was impatient and was slow to develop social skills. Some teachers would abuse a policy like that.

[marshall]

34. In many schools the teachers can't even verbally correct students

A friend of mine was castigated by the principal at her school. A boy in the cafeteria took off one of his shoes and threw it across the room, hitting another student in the face. My friend picked the shoe up and took it back to the boy and told him shoes were not meant to be thrown at others. The principal took her aside and told her she embarassed that boy in front of his peers by admonishing him in public. She was forced to make an apology to the boy in front of the other students.

[rug]

35. Teachers should be armed and the caliber increased with the grade.

[sufrommich]

37. Seriously? Would you hit your own kid for mouthing off? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. I don't have any kids.

But I learned fast from my dad not to mouth off.

I never mouthed off to him directly because, well, he's HUGE. He a hulking bear of a man.

But like my OP says, I soon learned not to mouth off to teachers either.

I don't think I'm any the worse for wear. In fact, while I was first angry, then scared I can say I really wish I could go back and say I'm sorry to my teacher for being such a nasty little bitch to him. What I did was wrong but at the time you never would have gotten me to realize it because I wanted to be angry more than I wanted to be right. I wasn't acting rationally and reason never entered into it.

My dad managed to break through that emotionalism. I hated him at the time too but I kept my mouth shut and did my school work. At the end of the year I graduated with honors. When I grew up I learned I was being a nasty little bitch to someone who didn't deserve it.

No harm, no foul; I s'pose.

In fact, since I started this thread I texted my dad and told him thanks (he replied, "ok your weird but your welcome" I won't bother correcting his your/you're error.)

I also s'pose if I had one of me just like me I probably wouldn't "light her up" as hubby would say, I'd give her over to her father.

[sufrommich]

50. So you learned not to mouth off to people who are bigger

than you? I don't get the lesson, did your Dad hit you? Your last sentance is disturbing to say the least.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

56. Just because I'm smaller than my dad doesn't give me license

to swear at a teacher.

[LostInAnomie]

41. School discipline is so toothless anymore it has become a joke.

[TexasObserver]

44. No. And threads such as this one are always tiresome.

"I don't normally think it's ok to hit kids, but ...."



These charming testimonials about how that one time in school someone hit someone - and everyone knew it was just a whacking to get the unruly in line - are tedious and pointless. It's a trite story, a fuzzy memory, where hitting kids wasn't so bad, after all! So says the writer.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. Not a fuzzy memory. It was only 6 years ago.

And the complaint of tedium isn't an observation. it's a bank-handed effort to embarrass people into not talking about subjects you disapporve of.

If it's so tedious you're perfectly free to click into the dozens of other threads.

[TexasObserver]

47. You have a belief that one time someone got hit and that made things better.

Such testimonials are common. It's one person's delusion about some event in their past.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. You're using contradictory terms.

Delusions are thinks that are not objectively observed.

If a man says he sees an elephant walking down a city street we readily believe him to be delusional.

But if there is "common testimony" that an elephant was walking down the street we do well to call the local zoo and ask them to inventory their pachyderm population, not dismiss each subsequent report as an indiviual delusion.

[TexasObserver]

51. Your belief that the hitting did some good is the delusion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

53. No, you!

Seriously, dude; that wasn't a rebuttal.

It's like that Monty Python skit of the two guys arguing.

[TexasObserver]

55. This subthread has been beaten into submission.

Now it's in its room, whimpering.

Another corporal punishment success!

You have posted on this thread that six years ago - 2004 - you got in trouble in school, and your father whipped your butt hard enough that it hurt. So, now you're presumably a young adult who thinks getting whipped by your father while you were a teenager was a good idea. Now, you're citing that example approvingly.

Those of us who have raised children and now have grandchildren find your approval of parents hitting children disturbing. If you were physically abused and you speak favorably of it, you're more likely to abuse your kids when you have them.

This isn't just a disagreement. I consider your approach to child rearing to be harmful, and sometimes lethal, to children.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

58. Sometimes children become lethal.

So what does that mean?

My dad never came close to hurting me and it was 1 of maybe 3 times in my entire childhood that he ever physically disciplined me.

Yet from the sounds of it you'd have him dragged off in irons and me made into a ward of the state.

I'm glad you weren't there to do me any favors.

[TexasObserver]

60. You reaffirm my reasons for concern.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

64. And you appear to reaffirm stereotypes of busybodies breaking up families

with their near religious conviction in their unshakeable self-righteousness.

So far it's your opinion against "common testimonials."

Please tell me you don't have any government power to break-up families.

[TexasObserver]

66. You're suggesting things I never stated or implied.

I have not suggested any family be broken up.

I have stated that children who are physically abused and who think physical abuse is appropriate for parents to inflict upon their children are likely to repeat that mistake in parenting.

Please try to avoid making things up to fit your straw man constructions.

[Brickbat]

54. You're asking if corporal punishment in school is OK. It is not. And if this is a case of a

teacher losing his/her cool and belting a kid, that is also not OK. So there's you're answer.

[immoderate]

57. Pugilism is not a teacher's job.

I never went to a school (or taught in one) where corporal punishment was countenanced. That's through the 50's and 60's. As an educator, I think that beating up on my students can't be part of my job. I'll pass on combat pay.

For chair throwers, there should be resources to have that student removed, and dealt with by someone good at evaluating and modifying behaviors. And then should be followed up. Usually, parents clear up matters pretty quick, if they are informed. Sometimes, they need to be prodded.

--imm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. As an educator perhaps you know what the word "hyperbole" means.

"beating up on students"

Really?

[immoderate]

61. You understood me. Others will, I'm sure.

I was, after all, a math teacher. English teachers might manifest a meaty metaphor, or perhaps an alliteration.

Would you be more comfortable if I had been more literal (and less literary) and referred to it as "committing assault"?

--imm

[TBF]

63. Assault as a descriptor works for me -

it shouldn't just apply when adults beat up on each other - it should apply with children as well.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

65. Except assault tends to hinge on whether you're acting or reacting

And the degree.

Hitting someone who is a physical threat is never assault. It's self-defense.

Pummeling with the intent of causing physical harm beyond the victim's ability to defend their being is "beating up."

Smacking an irrational, unruly child in a way that could not reasonably inflict physical harm hardly seems to come close to either of those descriptions. It's just taking those descriptions and defining them down.

[immoderate]

67. Smacking an irrational child does not make him rational.

Violence, regardless of intent, does not solve the problem, it postpones it and may exacerbate it.

How do you deal with a child who is corporeally punished for every little thing at home? With a ping-pong paddle?

--imm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. Who said ANYTHING about EVERY offense leading to spanking

This is what makes adult conversations so difficult.

You can't ask a simple question like, "is it OK to spank an unruly child" without people coming in and suddenly tossing around terms like "beating up" or "assaulting" or "violence" or "abuse."

That isn't discussion it's hyperbolic rhetoric.

Good grief.

[immoderate]

69. OK, I'm against spanking, paddling, smacking, or punching a child.

And if you don't think these are examples of violence, then you can smack me silly. I know people who have struck their children, and I know people who have never struck their children. The former children are more likely to grow up to be child abusers.

--imm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. OK, at least that is a testable assertion

I know my dad got "butt whupped" yet he never abused me or my brother.

I don't have kids (and don't plan to) but I can't even imagine hurting a child but I don't consider a swat to the pants as hurting.

During lunch I called hubby and asked him if he would spank kids if we ever had any. After spending 5 minutes trying to convince him I'm not pregnant his response was, "No, but I would smoke the living shit out of them if they needed it." For the uninitiated reader that is army-speak for disciplinary calisthetics, i.e. push-ups, running etc.

I have to admit that is an intriguing scenario.

Hubby got spanked as a child and yet he is also the biggest teddy bear you ever met.

Granted these are anectdotal accounts but its also a lot of spanking and yet no one seems abusive.

[immoderate]

71. I believe it's quite well documented. It's also sensible.

Surely I couldn't apply this to any particular person or family. I got hit, though I don't remember it. I remember I was always afraid of being hit. Not terrified, but I always knew. So it must have left an impression. I wonder how my personality would have developed differently had I not had those thoughts.

There is no shortage of child psychologists who will assert that damage occurs when you spank a child. I've worked with some, and they managed to raise children without ever hitting them. I think that's a feat, but it can be done.

On the other hand there are books by Michael and Debi Pearl on how to "train up" children. They recommend daily whippings with PVC pipe. Here's a good article:
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls

What would your husband do if the kid turns out to love doing push-ups and running? Just kidding.

--imm

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. The Pearls are idiots and thankfully little known.

If my kids grew-up loving push-ups I'd be terrified they would join the military. Not that I hate the military, I'm proud of my husband's former service but I as a mother would be terrified.

His mother was terrified for him the whole time. Proud but terrified.

[immoderate]

73. The military could be a good experience.

Provided there are no wars.

--imm

[TBF]

77. Anecdotal - and you don't even have children. Yet you bring your right-wing memes to this

site and expect us to take you seriously. "Adult conversation" is the new meme being used to "discuss" slashing social security and leaving the elderly out in the street to die. Christian adults - assaulting children, leaving the elderly out to fend for themselves, and most recently the refusal to extend unemployment to folks who can't find jobs in this economy.

Sometimes I think it's worth fighting for this country, but much of the time I just want to get the hell out.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

78. What?

Seriously.

What?

Tell me, oh Minister of Improper Word Usage and Illicit Phrases, how should I have phrased my call to set aside emotional non-responses and hyperbole to steer the conversation back to discussions about a whack on the bum and not allow it to be overtaken by mischaracterizations of helpless children being pummeled into bloody pulps by frothing adults?

Are you seriously telling me 2 little words, regardless of how appropriately used, are suddenly a give-a-way to some super secret conservative plot to subliminally campaign for killing old people by talking about corporal punishment in schools?

Is this a joke or are you really that paranoid?

[TBF]

79. You are bringing right-wing ideas to this site and expecting praise.

I don't know how much more simple I can make it. You can do this as long as Skinner allows it of course, but don't expect the rest of us to coddle you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

85. You're off your plum

Please show me where I've ever endorsed a RW talking point.

I have always, proudly been anti-war, pro-gay civil rights, pro-choice, pro-social justice, pro-union, pro-income equality and healthcare reform.

So please demonstrate what supposed RW talking point I've supposedly imported into the forum.

If not you're just a bully who has nothing to offer for a substanitive rebuttal so you pull out some lame nonsense to silence people you can't answer honestly.

In other words: put-up or shut-up.

(Or is that a RW catch phrase too?)

[TBF]

86. Thank you for the personal insults - thought those were against the rules now

A "bully"? How is responding to the garbage you're posting "bullying"? I am responding to your idiotic post on a message board. When you post something in public not everyone is going to always agree with you.

This meme of corporal punishment in schools is very obviously a right wing meme, as you well know. Enjoy your stay.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

87. OK, so you disapprove of corporal punishment

Then vote "no".

And are you seriously suggesting no democrat voter or liberal never, ever no way ever paddled a butt?

Seriously?

Here's an idea you might try to progress towards: you are not the sole arbiter of all that is properly liberal. You are not the Pope of Progressives. Just because you do not agree with something does not mean you excommunicate, declare anathema and serve as Grand Inquisitor against all heresy.

You're 1 person on a very large forum.

You have every right to speak your mind and I invited folks to speak their minds when I started this thread even at the risk they would not agree with me.

My father paddled my ass at a time when I probably very much deserved it. I grew-up to be a solid progressive and a non-abusive person. My father is a good man and he carried more weight than any person should have to raising my brother and me by himself while working his ass off day and night. He is not some RW stooge. He's also a life long voting democrat and former memeber of a union.

OTOH, my husband, who is pretty darned conservative may not be opposed to corporal punishment but believes disciplinary calisthetics would be far more pragmatic.

So just in my narrow circle the cheap stereotype you're peddling in an effort to silence someone you disagree with seems to fall apart. And from the poll results a fair number of DU'ers also seem to reject your "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

[TBF]

89. I'm not trying to silence you - just vehemently disagree,

and especially disagree with your rude comments re the unrec. It is a feature on this site and I'll use it if I feel like it.

Your views on corporal punishment are right-wing talking points, whether you recognize it or not. Anecdotal "evidence" of two people means nothing to me. This isn't personal as much as you try to make it so.

You are also one person on a very large forum, and your need to have the last word is telling. I won't be replying any longer because I believe we've both stated our positions and are not likely to waver.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

91. You should get a patent for your bike that pedals backwards.

[TBF]

76. Adults should know better than to inflict violence on children. nt

[donco6]

82. Really? Smacking them in the mouth?

Uh . . . no.

[ClassWarrior]

84. Praise in public, admonish in private. Model human respect.

NGU.