Is the President supposed to be regarded as the opposition now?

[bigtree]

Seriously. That's what I see as the overriding tone of the debate here. Is that where critics of this administration are going/coming from? Or, is there still something they can find redeemable about this Democratic president and administration?

[coti]

1. When someone is working against what you believe is right so often, how are

you supposed to view them?

Is he ever going to stop fucking up? On the really big, important domestic things, at least, like HCR, tax policy, Social Security, etc.?

[ProSense]

3. "Is he ever going to stop fucking up?"

Not in your mind.

In mine he's doing a great job with room for improvement.

[howaboutme]

31. Geithner was my first disappointment.

My first disappointment with Obama was his choice of Geithner as Sec of Treasury. I do get the perception that Obama is being dictated to by the interests of Wall Street, and Geithner was selected to serve those interests. Hopefully I'm wrong. I sent the White House an email in Jan 09 criticizing that choice as a bad example for the people. Guess what they didn't listen...lol.

To Quote: This pattern of excusing and allowing tax cheats to become part of the cabinet is not a good example for the people, regardless of the candidates so-called qualifications. If all we can find as leadership are tax scofflaws we're in big trouble. I consider a $100 underpayment as a mistake...but $100K is a felony. I do not believe that these big tax omissions were innocent mistakes.

[orleans]

64. lucky you. n/t

[Rex]

2. You mean like we here view Republicans as the opposition?

Is that what you mean?

[eridani]

18. Republican ideas are the opposition, regardless of who holds them n/t

[Zhade]

59. You just checkmated the OP. Brilliant move.

Now THAT'S how you play multidimensional chess!

[SammyWinstonJack]

93. +1. nt

[mmonk]

107. Thanks. Someone had to say it.

We've run this country on Republican ideas for too long and look at where we are.

[madfloridian]

4. If he agrees to cut SS for present retirees....

then I guess you could say that.

And that would be a real shame.

[ProSense]

5. What if he doesn't?

What are the chance Congress will pass Social Security cuts?

[madfloridian]

11. Congress will most likely.

And Obama needs to veto.

[ProSense]

13. How?

Give me the votes in the House and Senate?

[sabrina 1]

57. Fritz Hollings already gave us a fair idea of how it's going to be.

Didn't you see what he said after being asked if Democrats would vote against any messing with SS especially since it has nothing to do with the Deficit?

I think we know, based on past performance, and on Hollings' statement, what to expect.

A question for YOU. What if the raise in the retirement age does pass and the president refuses to veto it? Will that be the final line in the sand for you? Or will you attempt to defend even that?

[Lord Magus]

25. Please explain this.

Explain why you think that a majority of both houses of Congress will be eager to commit political suicide by cutting Social Security for present retirees.

Oh, there are plenty of Republicans who'd love to see Social Security die, or barring that see it get cut substantially. But few of them are stupid enough to want to be on the record voting for that to happen. That's why they tried under Bush to privatize Social Security: they thought they'd finally found a way to kill it while claiming to be trying to protect it.

[laughingliberal]

34. No worries. They'll be well rewarded for their service.

And, dont look now but they're claiming to be protecting it this time, too.

We've had people right here on DU arguing that we need to 'strengthen' it. They always hide behind some noble motive.

And by the time President Obama is making his statements about having to do this in a 'bipartisan' way, we'll see people here screaming down any of us left objecting to it.

[laughingliberal]

38. Based on what we've seen...pretty damned good chance they'll do it. nt

[Lord Magus]

7. What makes you think there's even a slight chance of that happening?

Other than wanting to always believe the worst of Obama, I can't think of any reason to believe that.

[laughingliberal]

40. He's been siding with the deficit hawks for over a year. That's what makes me think it.

This commission is his creation. Those 2 men who released the chairman's mark yesterday are his appointees. Why wouldn't I think there's every chance this would happen?

[Lord Magus]

84. The whole idea is that it's supposed to be a bipartisan commission.

A bipartisan commission by definition includes more than one point of view, and thus must include people who Obama disagrees with.

[flamingdem]

6. DU is screwed up currently, plus every white dude with a pen or mic thinks

they're superior to Obama right now. The GOP must be loving this breakdown on the left.

[ProSense]

8. One of the most accomplished Presidents in history

being called a "fuck-up" by Democrats.

[flamingdem]

19. It's an epidemic!

.. so many in the public sphere and here seem in need of therapy, a little perspective.

[Angry Dragon]

23. "One of the most accomplished Presidents in history"

For all these accomplishments that he has done, is your life better today than on 1/20/2009??

For a huge number of Americans it is not.
Granted he was handed a country that was full of
shit from bush. Health reform that benefits corps more
than the people. Wall Street reform that has not done
anything. Mortgage fraud that he refuses to put a
moratorium on. More important to keep the banks happy
than making sure that people do not lose their home
through fraud and theft. Starts negotiations from the middle.
No persecution of war crimes. Puts people in power that go against
the majority.

I do not know what this man's vision is for the country.
If you do then tell all of us here.

[ProSense]

27. "For all these accomplishments that he has done, is your life better today than on 1/20/2009??"

For the 100,000 soldiers no longer in Iraq and their families it's better.

For those who gained health care and jobs it is.

I know to some they don't matter, but they do.

[Angry Dragon]

29. I was asking you

Yes many it is better for many and for many it is worse.
I also asked if you knew what his plan was and how he was fighting to achieve those goals.

He came to me with a promise to work hard for certain things.
The man that promised those things disappeared after 1/21/2009
That is how I see it. I am willing to sit and see which way he goes.

I was asking YOU which way he is going to go.

[EFerrari]

35. By what measure is he one of the most accomplished?

You really don't do him any favors by making inflated claims.

[ProSense]

39. By the measure

of that fan girl Rachel Maddow.

She and I are the only ones "making inflated claims," right?

[EFerrari]

50. You seem to have a profound attachment to authority that I don't share.

You know, I went to grad school with a bunch of people who were every bit as smart as Rachel. They were a joy to be around. But I never had the impulse to substitute their judgment for my own. :)

[Rex]

51. LOL

[ProSense]

55. "I went to grad school with a bunch of people who were every bit as smart as Rachel."

What does that have to do with her opinion?

Surely people who substitute Dean, Grayson or anyone else's word as authoritative can't suddenly claim to be of independent thought.

[EFerrari]

60. It has to do with how you use her opinion as a shield.

and I don't recall ever using Dean or Grayson or anyone else in the same way.

Obama has accomplishments that he or anyone should be proud of. There's no need to gild the lily. It actually just undermines him and you.

[ProSense]

63. "Obama has accomplishments that he or anyone should be proud of. "

And I am free to choose Rachel's report to point to them.

If that's not good enough for you, there's more

[EFerrari]

67. "The lady doth protest too much" is how this comes off.

I'm pretty sure that isn't your aim.

[ProSense]

69. This comes off as

trying to change the subject.

[EFerrari]

73. Nope. And I hope you have some other external brakes available to you

ProSense. Good night.

[OregonBlue]

118. How right you are. Given what he inherited and where we are now, he has done a very good job. Can

you imagine if John McLame had won? Obama is a very bright, hardworking, sincere man who is refusing to give in to the hate. He really does want to be the president for all Americans, not just the ones who vote D. That so many hate him for that is appalling.

[AndrewP]

94. +1

[creon]

104. They are

To the extent that they know about it.

The GOP may not be paying all that much attention to progressives

[Newsjock]

9. He opposes recognizing my right to marry a person I love

There's no valid reason for that, so yes, on that particular topic, he is the opposition to me.

Many other Democrats have a far more enlightened view.

[ProSense]

12. So did Hillary

So did Bill Clinton

That's not it. There has to be some other reason for the complete disrespect and vile attacks.

[coti]

14. You didn't like me saying he's fucking up. Alright, I'll give him some credit:

As bad as I think Obama is doing, Clinton would have been worse. Truly, I know she would have been.

[ProSense]

16. A lot of the comments

are completely over the top and vile.

[coti]

20. Well, they're supposed to have SOME shock value.

That's often what it takes to get people's attention.

[ProSense]

24. Yeah,

shock value is changing so much.

It's hilarious to watch those determined not to give this President a chance dive deeper into the gutter for language of "shock value."

[coti]

28. I gave this guy a huge chance and stuck with him through a lot of doubt for a LONG time,

during the HCR debacle. Months and months and months.

I've never even criticized him on his foreign policy. Hell, I defended him on his foreign policy when others were attacking him.


But he's screwing up pretty damned bad.

It's not about him, it's very much about what he's doing.

His approach is all wrong, incredibly weak. And it IS true that he's also made things worse in some ways, particularly doubling down on our private health insurance system. That was a big, big mistake that brought us farther away from where we needed to go.


I don't know what the guy thinks he's doing, but he had an enormous opportunity when he came into office to change things. He had the vast majority of the country behind him. A good portion of those folks were going to peel off just due to Fox News, but for a long time he did have the liberals.


You know when it changed? The DAY Howard Dean said "Kill it." No, it wasn't that liberals listened to Dean say it, thought about it, and then agreed. He SAID IT AT EXACTLY THE SAME TIME WHEN MANY, MANY OTHER LIBERALS REALIZED THE WOOL HAD BEEN PULLED OVER OUR EYES. He reflected it, that change in how we saw Obama, and also validated it.


Obama needs to shape up. He has a LOT of work to do, especially domestically. He needs to get tough and start throwing his weight around a little, start taking on some of these arguments with the Republicans, and maybe just stop negotiating completely, at least for awhile. He's making this all way too easy for the Republicans.

[ProSense]

30. Yeah,

I'm sure you did.

[Zhade]

62. You're being intellectually dishonest, given that you can't possibly know what you claim.

The fact is, you DON'T know that people are "determined" not to give him a chance. I did. Even posted about how happy I was that he beat Clinton and represented the DLC and conservative Dems being shut out of power.

Boy, was I wrong about that last bit.

[ProSense]

66. It's called an opinion. n/t

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leeroysphitz]

117. Opinions are like assholes; Everybody has one and nobody wants to hear yours.

[Rex]

15. Right just ignore what the person posted.

Sigh.

[ProSense]

17. I didn't ignore it

I made an accurate point. I know people want to be able to focus all the venom and spin on this President while others are off limits to criticism. Not going to happen.

[Zhade]

65. Your claim that it's accurate is not accurate.

For example, I'll gladly call both Clintons total assholes for their bigotry toward GLBT people -- just as I'll call Obama on his bigotry.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

22. Is that an insult?

Edited.

[Lord Magus]

26. It's a point that hasn't changed since the 2008 election.

So obvious it can't be the cause of a change in opinion about Obama.

[Rex]

54. There is something obvious all right and it has nothing to do with Hillary.

[Zhade]

61. His being opposed to our equal rights isn't enough of a reason not to be a fan?

Are you fucking serious?

[Iggo]

100. She's not the president. Neither is Bill.

However, Fierce Advocate is the president.

[creon]

105. people are fickle

And make judgements based upon the state of their liver.

[ZombieHorde]

10. I suppose your questions depends on which issues you hold dear.

President Obama is an ally on some issues, such as stem cell research, but he is also the opposition on other issues, such as gay marriage.

[ClassWarrior]

32. Did the President rescind his challenge to us to challenge him? Because THAT's what I find...

...redeemable about him. That he invites citizens to push him to do better, opponents and supporters alike.

NGU.

[EFerrari]

41. Well, you asked.

lol

When people didn't like and even protested his Rick Warren choice, he called those people "noisy, diverse and opinionated". And it stuck with me because it seemed like a strange response to the people he'd invited to talk to him.

Never mind that Warren really did turn out to be a homophobic, sexist, anti-Semitic, corrupt douche bag.

It was a strangely negative, judgmental response to the first challenging feedback he got. There was no real reason for him to characterize people who disagreed with him but, that was his first impulse.

[Starry Messenger]

42. This.

:thumbsup:

[ClassWarrior]

44. Leave it to you to respond with...

...facts and actual circumstances and stuff! :rofl:

Seriously, thanks E. That episode didn't register with me at the time. But now that you bring it up, I'll have to reconsider using this response again. Dang, it's such an effective method of making the "never criticize the President, he's a saint I tells ya, a SAINT" crowd shut up.

:rofl:

NGU.

[EFerrari]

47. How are you, Class Warrior? It's good to see you here.

I know Barack is no saint, he was born the same year and month as my only brother. :rofl:

[ClassWarrior]

48. ROFL... Glad I'm an only!

I'm well. How's you Ms. E? It's always good to see you. :)

NGU.

[EFerrari]

76. 'Way interesting times around here.

And your counter is right on, imho. Obama did issue the invitation. What he makes of it or does with the response, that's something else.

:)

[Zhade]

70. Gee, it's almost as if his claim to want to be held accountable was just... empty talk.

NT!

[EFerrari]

74. Whelp, he didn't seem to enjoy the experience right off. n/t

[Radical Activist]

79. "noisy, diverse and opinionated"

Those all sound like compliments to me. I bet you would think so to if the words were used in another context. Such as, not by Obama.

[EFerrari]

81. Well, no.

[Radical Activist]

82. Shouldn't all activists be noisy?

And opinionated? And diverse?

Would you prefer quiet, homogeneous, apathetic activists? "Well behaved women seldom make history."

[EFerrari]

83. This may come as a surprise to you but words have meaning.

Both "noisy" and "opinionated" are negative descriptors. "Diverse" takes on the negative valence sandwiched between. Go look them up. That would involve a dictionary, either in hand or on line.

And that still begs the question, why is he negatively characterizing people instead of addressing their concerns?

[Radical Activist]

108. Those words still have positive meanings to me.

I don't think I've ever heard "diverse" used in a negative way and I don't know how it could be. What do you think is negative about diversity? Noisy and opinionated is exactly how good activists should describe themselves. Nothing negative there.

Maybe your interpretation of them as negative words in this context is influenced by your feelings about Obama. Yes, words have meaning, and they don't suddenly change meaning because you dislike the person using them.

[EFerrari]

116. In shared reality where words in English have a specific meaning

and in aggregate, a linguistic valence, you are wrong. Which is why I suggested you consult a dictionary. They are all over and on line, they are free.

[ClassWarrior]

119. +1

Perhaps the poster should look up the meaning of "cheerleader" as well.

NGU.

[Radical Activist]

120. So you think diversity is a bad thing?

You think noisy activists are a negative? You seem to have a hard time explaining your negative opinion of those words. Those are attitudes I would expect from a conservative. You should follow your good advice about the dictionary. You aren't sharing the same definition of those terms as the rest of us.

[Bluenorthwest]

101. Spot on

Yep.

[ClassWarrior]

33. dupe

[de novo]

36. I really get tired of the debate always being about Obama, the person.

I would much rather the focus be on issues. I don't really care if Obama is great or not. I don't care if he is getting support or if people are beating up on him. He is the President and it comes with the territory. I have no investment in him as a person. Focusing on the person clouds the real debate.

Issues and policies are what matter. When policies are antithetical to my beliefs, and those of the party, they deserve to be criticized and debated. I am invested in the office of the President. I voted for Obama to enact policies that I support.

[laughingliberal]

37. +1,000,000 nt

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[durkermaker]

90. one disturbing trend i have noticed in the last decade, is that if a dem supports something bad,

that issue becomes 'taboo' (H-1b visa, a glaring example), and you get accused of being 'a republican against a democrat' if you criticize the democrat's position

at least when republicans are in charge, you can criticize bad things

[SammyWinstonJack]

96. !!!

:thumbsup:

[Individualist]

113. +1

[TexasObserver]

43. No. He's to be considered a family member who has fallen in with a bad crowd.

And by "bad crowd," I mean he's talking about pledging a fraternity and how cool his new friends are.

[ClassWarrior]

46. Excellent analogy.

:thumbsup:

NGU.

[Starry Messenger]

45. Bigtree, who has the power?

That is the nature of opposition. This administration has been hostile to the populist message it claimed to embrace, if only by implication. This is one of a series of many threads from you today...what is the personal beef here?

[Rex]

56. I think he/she hates liberals.

[Starry Messenger]

91. I don't think so.

Usually when people are this wound up, there is something they are pinning their hopes on. That worries me, because if whatever that is comes crashing down, the person crashing with it usually falls really hard. Bigtree usually doesn't post things like this.

[SammyWinstonJack]

97. That's a good question. "what is the personal beef here?"

[leftstreet]

49. When did the Administration start regarding the base as the opposition?

Better question

[Zhade]

72. HERE

Indeed.

[readmoreoften]

52. Well when he stops acting like Reagan, Democrats might stop treating him like opposition.

[durkermaker]

89. reagan never supported outsourcing

(because it didnt exist yet)

not praising reagan, thought he was terrible, but just say'in

[defendandprotect]

53. The president has clearly only been on the CORPORATE side ....

Bush/Obama and bail outs -- one of the largest financial coup d'etats ever!!

We don't have to "find" something redeemable after obama has so clearly embraced

a pro-corporate agenda --

It is Obama who has to produce something redeemable!!

[Zhade]

58. When he's in opposition to traditional Democratic values and policies? Why wouldn't he be?

Oh, you're one of those party-uber-alles types. That's right. So you wouldn't understand.

[defendandprotect]

75. You really think the president doesn't understand what he is doing ....

despite the fact that all of us clearly understand it -- ????

:eyes:

[Lord Magus]

85. It seems more like he thinks the president understands what he's doing better than you understand

what he's doing.

[BzaDem]

86. +1. The biggest problem here is that people do NOT understand what he is doing, and how that relates

to what other branches of government are doing.

[defendandprotect]

110. Think I replied to the wrong post ... however, Obama's pro-corporate agenda ....

isn't some pit he fell into after the election --

it's by design --

That's why corporations sponsor politicians -- to get what they want.

And as we can see from the record, that's what's been happening ...

from health care deform to wars -- and safety nets where food stamps are cut --

and attacks on Social Security and Medicare --

Social Security is paid for by employees and employers and has run huge surplusses

for decades which have been used as SLUSH FUNDS --

and to disguise the monstrous MIC budget.

Social Security has nothing to do with the debt.


We've just had the greatest financial heist in history in the bail outs --

a $12 TRILLION financial coup d'etat ---

Bail outs and sold outs --

We're the sold outs!

[Scurrilous]

77. Release the Kraken!

:o

[EFerrari]

78. Even after reading most or all of your posts this week

I get this feeling that I don't know what is bothering you.

So, I guess I'll just keep reading for now.

[Jim Sagle]

80. It's really up to him.

[NJmaverick]

87. There are many that view him as such

that was why the Republicans now control the House

[jonnyblitz]

121. R.I.P.

:hi:

[durkermaker]

88. I think people should stand by their positions on issues if they're right, and view politicians in

the context of where they stand on those issues

i dont think it makes sense to tell people whether they should be for or against someone, and adjust their beliefs about issues accordingly - i think that's backwards

if you work for someone, are they supposed to be for/against you, or are they supposed to write your performance review accurately?

[woo me with science]

92. Of course not.

The President is supposed to be a representative.

[Skidmore]

95. You tell me.

I've been coming to this forum from the beginning, and I've never seen so many people willing to shoot each other in the foot and to kneecap the President. Shoot, * didn't get this level of vitriol, which apparently is glossed over with a fine shiny veneer of "constructive criticism."

[babylonsister]

98. Yes, on DU he is, obviously. Sad, isn't it. nt

[dionysus]

99. apparently it's okay now...

:shrug:

[Bluenorthwest]

102. This is one of the longes threads I have seen in which the OP

simply does not reply to the discussion he 'wanted'. I find that to be telling. Something is grinding at the OP, which he'd do more than post and drive by.
In case the OP is silently reading along, understand that it is policy, not persons that are supported or opposed. The President's policy that GLBT people are unworthy of equal rights due to his religious 'beliefs' is the absolute antithesis of what I believe. I think he is very wrong not only in the secular sense, but I find his theological dabbling to be shallow, childish, surface takes on a faith he seems to have read Cliff Notes about. He offends the Christians in my family (Democrats all) when he takes the mantel of Christian authority to excuse his bigoted views. They all support equal rights for all, and they do not think it is the place of any politician to preach articles of faith and dogma at anytime. He implies that they are not Christians, and that does not play well.
I utterly oppose the President's dogmatic support for discriminatory, two tired secular law designed to serve his own personal view of Christianity. Palin supports him in that. Most of the Tea Baggers are also standing there, in agreement with the President that teh gay must not have rights. I oppose them as well.

[creon]

103. If that is what people want

It is a free country and anyone is free to think -- for good reason, bad reason or no reason - that Obama is the opposition.

Of course, DU has all the opposition that it requires from the GOP. No more opponent should not matter all that much.

[Iggo]

106. Does he oppose what you believe in?

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blindpig]

111. Anybody who fucks with Social Security is the enemy. n/t

[SidDithers]

112. K&R...nt

Sid

[librechik]

114. we can criticize Obama on issues. Can't we?

You may characterize it as some sort of mindless attack, but I try to be impersonal and stick to issues where I think his stance is inappropriate for a Democrat.

[LWolf]

115. He has been the opposition since he appointed a neoliberal administration

and began to pursue neoliberal policies.

It can't have escaped you that this nation has raced rapidly to the right in two years under Barack Obama and a Democratic Congress.

[Scurrilous]

122. Kick

:kick:

[Skittles]

123. not sure he is there yet

but he sure is working on it

[ibegurpard]

124. when he proposes forging partnerships with republicans then most emphatically YES