WTF??!! OBAMA MEETS WITH CONDI (WAR CRIMINAL) RICE TO DISCUSS HER BOOK AND FOREIGN POLICY??!!

[Panaconda]

Rice meets with Obama, then defends his administration's approach



Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 15, 2010; 10:43 PM

Not many authors on a book tour manage to snag a visit with the president of the United States. But Condoleezza Rice is no ordinary book author.

The former secretary of state and onetime national security adviser met one-on-one with President Obama at the White House on Friday afternoon, after a week of television appearances promoting "Extraordinary, Ordinary People," her memoir about her parents. The White House said Obama wanted to discuss a range of foreign policy issues with her.

Later, at an evening appearance at the Aspen Institute, Rice said she and Obama "covered the waterfront." "Despite the fact there are changes and tussles, there is still a foreign policy community that believes that foreign policy ought to be bipartisan," she said. "It was really great that he reached out in that way."

Rice rolled her eyes at the notion that Obama is a closet Muslim, and she defended him from criticism - led by former vice president Richard B. Cheney - that Obama had weakened the country. "Nothing in this president's methods suggests this president is other than a defender of America's interests," Rice told an audience that included presidential adviser Valerie Jarrett.

...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/15/AR2010101506018.html?hpid=topnews

[TwilightGardener]

1. Meh, she's held a prominent position, and I don't think she was the worst

of Cheney Inc.

[Panaconda]

13. So "not the worst of the war criminals" is now a credential?

As National Security Advisor, Rice authorized waterboarding in July 2002, according to a report of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Less than two months later, she hyped the impending U.S. invasion of Iraq, saying, "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Her ominous warning was part of the Bush administration's campaign to sell the Iraq war, in spite of the UN International Atomic Energy Agency's assurances that Saddam Hussein did not possess nuclear capabilities.

She's a war criminal, plain and simple.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Pretty much. As I've said, she's held a prominent position, and she's

not been arrested and charged. So, that's the reality. Presidents are diplomatic and usually stay on polite terms with prior administrations. That's all I'm seeing here.

[Panaconda]

19. And it doesn't

make you wretch?

That's worrisome.

[TwilightGardener]

33. "Retch". It's aggravating to see people getting away with

terrible things by virtue of their positions and connections and wealth, but it's always been that way. Anyhoo, what makes me retch is not Condi so much as her "husband" and Crashcart, touring the country, making appearances, trying to pretend they weren't the monumental fuckups of the century.

[Luminous Animal]

20. None of them have been arrested or charged... and yet all of them are ware criminals.

I'm not polite with torturers. Are you?

[TwilightGardener]

29. That's the way things work, though. They would have had to be found guilty

of war crimes, or at least had charges made against them, in order for them to be disdained or condemned by the current President. I don't think most of America thinks that they were war criminals, either. Political reality is, it will all be let go, down the memory hole. Looking at the next three weeks, I am reminded of how fragile the Democrats' grasp is on the reins of power--I'm not saying it was good or just to let all of the Cheney Bush crimes go unpunished in court, I'm just acknowledging that it was never going to happen in light of the political climate in this country. Ironically, while Democrats have let that slide, there's articles up on DU about the planned impeachment of Obama, for "crimes" and scandals not yet known. Life is unfair.

[Luminous Animal]

35. They have admitted to war crimes. On TV. If my neighbor walks up to me and says...

I murdered a man and this is how I did it, I don't need a trial to prove his guilt.

I stole a copper bracelet when I was 10 years old. Do I need a trial to prove my guilt? No I do not. I have admitted it here.

[scheming daemons]

63. " I don't need a trial to prove his guilt".... yes, you absolutely f*cking do

I swear, the level of civics knowledge in this country is astoundingly poor.


Yes... even with a confession... you need a trial to prove guilt.

[Luminous Animal]

71. What? If I admit to a crime but the state chooses to not prosecute,

do you assert that no crime was committed? If I burned down my neighbors house, killed the entire family, publicly proclaimed that I did it, but the Prosecutor says, "Meh." Will you assert that I have committed no crime?

[scheming daemons]

74. No..I do not assert that no crime was committed..I assert that YOUR guilt is not proven in that case

Just as... yes... torture was committed... but Condi Rice's level of guilt in the matter has not been legally determined.

Yes... even scoundrels are "innocent until proven guilty".


When a judge and jury convicts her, then she's a war criminal.


and even then... having a conversation with her is not some great "outrage".

[Luminous Animal]

79. So, the Nazis were not criminals until after the war. And yes, I went there.

If, like Bush, Cheney, Condi, admit to crimes, then yes, they committed crimes.


What a bizarre world you live in that the only crimes committed are the ones that the state prosecutes and gets a conviction.

[scheming daemons]

82. Again... your reading comprehension needs some work

I didn't say crimes weren't committed.

I said that Condi Rice's culpability in those crimes has yet to be determined.


Just as in your example... Nazis committed crimes... but the level of guilt of any particular Nazi had to be determined by a court.


Furthermore... even if/when she is found guilty in a court... having a conversation with her is not an endorsement of her crimes.



Lastly... you said that I live in a world where the only crimes committed are those that get a conviction. I never said nor implied that. These two statements are not equivalent:

A. A crime was committed.
B. Condi Rice committed the crime.

I'm agreeing with you that A is true.

But B is not proven yet.



I submit that the "bizarre world" is the one that YOU live in ... a world where:

A. A conversation with someone is an implicit endorsement of any wrongdoing that person has done.
B. The subjective opinion of guilt or innocence of an individual by another individual is equivalent to a jury verdict.

[Luminous Animal]

85. Like I said. According to your standards, no Nazi committed a crime until a court deemed it so.

No trial? No crime. Admit a crime? Hahahaha, you fool, until you convict me, I've committed no crime.

[scheming daemons]

87. Are you being intentionally dense?

Crimes were committed. Nazis committed those crimes.

Both sentences true.

Each individual Nazi was innocent until proven guilty.



When a murder occurs, a crime has been committed. The prime suspect in the crime is NOT guilty until convicted. That does *NOT* mean that a crime hasn't been committed!


I know you're not this dense... you couldn't possibly be.

[Luminous Animal]

91. So that is where we are now? That the Nazis were innocent, unless convicted? Really?

[scheming daemons]

93. Again.. NO!... Nazis were guilty... INDIVIDUALS had different levels of culpability

...that had to be determined by a court.

Not all INDIVIDUAL members of the Nazi party were equally culpable for the crimes committed. Some members of the Nazi party were not guilty at ALL. Many were, but certainly not all.


Let me put it a better way:

The Bush Administration is guilty of torture.

How much each INDIVIDUAL member of the Bush Administration is guilty, is yet to be determined.



Those two statements are *NOT* contradictory.

[readmoreoften]

101. Wow. You went there. You'll really excuse anything so long as Obama does it.

[TheWatcher]

219. Indeed. He'll gladly lick boots as long as the Boots are worn by those one he blindly worships.

[tavalon]

191. If my conversation with a War Criminal would be seen and heard around the world

Damn straight I'm going to be aware that meeting with a War Criminal would have undertones of approval of their felonious behavior. Even as a simple citizen who wouldn't be noticed by anyone, if a known War Criminal like Condi came to my door, I wouldn't let her in and I certainly wouldn't serve her tea.

[tavalon]

190. Sometimes you actually do have to go there, Godwin's law be damned

We're talking about War Criminals in both cases. The only difference is that back then, the world had a moral compass that worked. If it still worked, Cheney, Bush , Rice, Rumsfeld and many more who aren't coming to mind right now would be in jail.

[sad sally]

170. oh, unless you're plucked off the streets and thrown in secret torture prisons

[Luminous Animal]

49. "Hello former SoS, will you please pass the gravy swimming with hundreds of thousands dead?"

[tavalon]

189. In a lot of areas, I can be pretty maleable,

but these folks renamed torture, enhanced interrogation and then they went on to do it, a lot. They renames disappearing people as extraoridinary rendition and then they did it, a lot. For me, this is one of those rare binary moments in history. In that administration they were torturers and what they did is War Crimes. She is just as guilty as Rumsfeld and Cheney. There aren't, in my world, levels of War Criminals. You either are a War Criminal (Condi) or you're not (most, but sadly, not all Democrats).

Mafioso like to keep things cordial between the families too. That doesn't make the mafia a good thing and keeping it cordial with War Criminals isn't okay.

[Honeycombe8]

157. They're just having a meet and greet. They're not going to plan a war. Get a grip.

You're not saying you're one of those who doesn't want people on opposing sides to ever meet and chat over coffee, are you?

Obama has a compelling personal history. So does Sotomayer. So does Condi Rice. And that has nothing to do with their policial activities.

Meet, have coffee, chat a bit. That's a good thing. (BTW...she has never been found guilty of being a war criminal. That's an inflammatory thing to say, when someone wants others to hate a person. IMO, she was duped like Powell and others, by Cheney and others. She was ignorant of Al Qaeda and the Middle East history as it regards America.)

[WinkyDink]

175. She should be persona non grata. Or is that reserved only for Democrats like Dr. Dean? (And you know

what they are and are not going to plan, how, precisely? Blind faith?)

[docvet]

198. STOP ALL THIS! WE NEED TO LOOK FORWARD!!!

LOL what people fail to see is that Obama jumped the criminal shark a while back. He stands for the patriot act and has expanded the loss of our liberties. Assassination of American citizens? Gitmo and black sites still in full force? Continued massacre of poor people in far away illegal wars? deaths of thousands of americans through poverty, despair and disease by catering to the health corps and wall street? Now he decides to meet with a war criminal and its all dandy? LOL FU! They are colleagues!

Truth sometimes is a bitter pill that MUST be swallowed.

Sad thing is that apologists here DO KNOW all this.

By now NO ONE can be so naive.

Either you are profiting in some sick way from the aberration that is ALL Washington plutocracy or you are severely mentally imbalanced.

Either way go to hell :patriot:

[boppers]

217. I love how people don't realize that this can also be seen as two war criminals meeting.

Personally, I think Rice has excellent US/Russian expertise, and is a valuable asset in that sense, but some folks are blind to the blood on their own hands.

[pgodbold]

227. ROFL

[HuckleB]

2. Politics is not pure. -eom-

[Panaconda]

7. Purity?

Can you believe what you just said?

We are talking unquestionable war criminal. Is that your standard?

Unbelievable. No wait, quite believable.

[HuckleB]

14. Thank you for proving my point.

[hack89]

164. Unquestioned? Many Americans would in fact question that "fact" .

I think Obama is one of them.

[readmoreoften]

102. Fuck it. Let's start hanging around with the Taliban then.

Why the hell not? If war criminals are no big deal, why not terrorists?

Funny thing is: I voted against these people so they'd never advise anyone on anything ever again.

[musicblind]

152. You just used an argumentative fallacy.

Similar to the one used against gays actually.

[anaxarchos]

3. Yep...

Just another "defender of America's interests".

[Radical Activist]

4. ZOMG! HE ISN'T ALLOWED TO TALK TO PEOPLE WE MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH!!?!?!?!

This is one of those indicator events. If someone is outraged then it indicates that they're trying too hard to be outraged.

[villager]

If only he talked to people we *did* agree with...

that'd be a refreshing "change...."

[Radical Activist]

38. Like someone who opposed the Iraq war from the start?

Like Susan Rice, who's actually part of the administration? Your comment is overdramatic and inaccurate.

[villager]

95. and your example is desperate and reaching...

....given who actually holds sway in this administration, and who he actually stocked his cabinet with...

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. I'm wondering if we even know who he does agree with

It's pretty confusing these days.

[Whisp]

128. how about Elizabeth Warren. He talks to her.

and she was quite popular here a while back... a mother teresa of finance figure here.

that is, until she talked to Obama.

you guys are such great entertainment. *slaps knee

[donco6]

132. Heh. And a surprising one at that. n/t

[Smashcut]

11. You are so sensible. I join you in applauding his openness to a wide range of foreign policy views.

War criminals have a viewpoint that's just as valuable as anyone else's.

[Radical Activist]

41. I noticed your avatar.

What media outlet or political organization do you work for as a member of the professional left?

[Luminous Animal]

60. The one that Gibbs claims exists. Ask him for the list.

[Radical Activist]

62. Media pundit? Issue advocacy group?

Or were you just hoping he was talking about you so that you could take it personally?

[Luminous Animal]

80. Again, Gibbs seems to know who the professional left is. Ask him to cough up the list.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muffin1]

108. +1,000,000

:thumbsup:

[treestar]

121. Condi is not generally recognized as a "war criminal" in this society

[laconicsax]

158. Evolution isn't generally recognized as true in this society.

The majority beliefs don't change the facts. Obama's deep want to sweep the past under the carpet and excuse war crimes is all too apparent.

[WinkyDink]

180. Your point is?

[HuckleB]

15. +1,000,000,000,000!!!

[Panaconda]

24. This does not outrage you?

Condoleezza Rice approved 'torture' techniques

Condoleezza Rice, President George W. Bush's Secretary of State, personally approved a CIA request to use "waterboarding" and other harsh interrogation techniques.

...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5208701/Condoleezza-Rice-approved-torture-techniques.html

Very disturbing.

[Radical Activist]

39. I expect Obama to speak with people whose views he does not share.

Remember when everyone was critical of Bush for living in an echo chamber and only listening to people who reinforced his own attitudes? My opinion didn't change about that when Obama took office.

[Luminous Animal]

51. My neighbor skins cats alive. We don't agree on the cat skinning thing but we sure do share a

chuckle over a bag of Cheetos.

[Radical Activist]

54. You're chanting slogans.

You could at least make them clever.

[Luminous Animal]

81. Cat skinning is a slogan? How about this.. Condi is an advocate for torture.

Of this, there is no doubt.

[readmoreoften]

104. I don't see why Obama should have a problem with that.

Not like he's done anything to stop torture since he's been in office. Oh sorry, he's too busy fighting POTHEADS.

[Radical Activist]

206. The day Obama took office

he issued an executive order ending Bush's torture policies. So you're wrong to claim that he hasn't done anything to stop torture. Obama Derangement Syndrome?

[SidDithers]

223. ODS? Yup...nt

Sid

[readmoreoften]

111. WTF are you babbling about now.

[joe black]

127. So a visit from Hannabel Lector would be ok.

[tammywammy]

136. That would be pretty awesome if he visited with Anthony Hopkins. n/t

[Radical Activist]

137. I'd rather meet Jodie Foster.

That movie freaked me out.

[Luminous Animal]

40. True that. I heard he's meeting with Charles Manson next...

after all, not all mass murderers are the same. Either might have some handy hints on how to keep your fans rolling in blood.

[treestar]

120. I know! This is literally as stupid as the right wingers who claimed

Obama was a terrorist for talking to Ayers or hated white people because he sat in the congregation of Rev. Wright. Guilt by association, and no one should ever speak to someone they don't agree with.

[Radical Activist]

125. Good comparison.

Funny how similar that tactics are.

[WinkyDink]

176. " MIGHT NOT AGREE WITH!!?!?!?!" Is that what the Bush Admin is to you, merely that? Pathetic.

[Smashcut]

5. Wow...the ideological pretzels are hard at work justifying this one already.

LOL.

[tabatha]

8. Mandela hired people

as bodyguards, from those who had opposed him.

Btw, Obama wrote the foreword for Mandela's latest book.

[Luminous Animal]

26. Did those bodyguards wield power to sanction torture?

[scheming daemons]

64. No... they were the ACTUAL former torturers....

...

[WinkyDink]

181. Bully for Mandela. He was luckier than Sadat and Bhutto. Well, so far.

[boppers]

218. Ghandi, too!

Dontchaknow, forgiveness never advanced anything!

:sarcasm:

[tabatha]

6. If Condi has good words for Obama,

that can only be a good thing.

[Panaconda]

10. What value

are good words from a war criminal.

Condi has credibility with you?

[tabatha]

12. No, maybe the crazies who put up

offensive billboards of Obama may feel a little embarrassed.

[TheKentuckian]

178. Pulease...they'll chuck that war criminal under the bus and accuse her of being a "reverse racist"

in the twinkling of an eye before they are guilted into softening their insanity.

[Luminous Animal]

23. Yes. I am so happy that a war criminal supports our President.

Hundreds of thousands killed. Millions displaced. And torture, too!

That can only be a good thing.

[tabatha]

25. That is not what I said.

I was thinking only that it may open the eyes of the crazies.

[Luminous Animal]

27. How? That the crazies will now support Obama because he is supported by a war criminal?

[readmoreoften]

105. Maybe he should get advise from Bush and Cheney, too, then.

[tabatha]

135. That is not what I said either.

She is an expert on Russia, something neither of those two (Bush Cheney) are.
And I bet it is not advice - it is to hear other points of view - it does not mean to say he will use any of it.
I do know that Condi opposed many of Cheney's draconian ideas.

[sad sally]

171. The "expert" who didn't speak the language - that one?

[boppers]

220. "the language"

:rofl:

Her field was the study of eastern bloc politics, not the study of the Russian/Polish/Czech/(etc.) languages...

I'll assume you're American, and say something you might find interesting: They speak *multiple* languages in other countries! Imagine that! They even have multiple dialects, where people in the same country have difficulty communicating, because their dialects differ so much! Crazy, I know!

[MadHound]

9. Ah yes, that whole clubby, chummy, collegiate community

And people wonder why some think that D.C. is a semi-closed eco-system removed from the people.

[Catherina]

16. Well if Condi is pleased, what do the rest of us matter? Rec'd and bookmarked n/t

[applegrove]

18. condi said that Hillary Clinton has called her a few times to ask questions.

Condi pointed out that she wasn't getting briefed daily on world events so she only had so much advice she could give.... on wolf blitzer.

[Luminous Animal]

21. Obama meets with a torturer.

[G_j]

22. Of course, & they seem to love Kissinger too

ain't it grand?

[apocalypsehow]

28. CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!!11

:eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

42. +! OH THE HUMANITY!

[Whisp]

129. o the humdumbity! is more like it.

sweet entertainment tho.
:rofl:

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SidDithers]

224. Well said...nt

Sid

[Honeycombe8]

30. So the President met with a former Sec. of State...a VIP one, to boot.

One of the few of the prior administration who isn't walking around criticizing the current administration.

Add to that the fact that she is a historical figure...the first Af. American Sec. of State, with as extraordinary a personal history as President Obama's.

I think it's very fitting that they should meet and chat a while.

And I think we all know...the President of the U.S. is not taking advice from a former Sec. of State who made big "mistakes." Nor did he say that's what he was doing. He has his own very fine Sec. of State, thank you very much.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bkozumplik]

146. i think most monsters on that scale

have already justified their actions in their heads, so I imagine they all are not too troubled.

[Honeycombe8]

154. I don't think she was part of the in-the-know crowd. I think she was duped, like Colin Powell.

She wasn't too bright, not to have caught on. She didn't know who Al Qaeda was, when she took office. She was probably all caught up with being named the 1st Af. Am. Sec of State, esp. given where she came from (segregated Alabama, where they couldn't use public restrooms).

She probably caught on near the end, I think. But it was too late by then.

She has a remarkable personal history. Coming from where she came from, with all the odds against her. She persisted, worked hard, and throughout it all, has remained a seemingly non-critical person of others, as far as I can tell. She's on the wrong side. She's not too bright, about people like Cheney. But a monster? You're not well informed if you think SHE was the monster.

[TheKentuckian]

183. Looking at her history and chalking it to "not that bright" is reaching deep in the excuse box

The reality is she was one of the biggest neocons. Not Cheney and Rumsfeld but a sure junior partner and is a principle architect and pushed big for a lot of the criminal minded foreign policy and erosion of civil liberties, likely one of the most effective prods and coaches for the shrub rather than being some dimwitted tool.

Fuck yeah, she certainly is one of the monsters however likable our compelling you somehow may find her.

That neocon war criminal belongs under a prison and certainly not in charge of our top Universities, corporations, and organizations.

Madcap excuses for scum on a "liberal" and "Democratic" board is absolutely disgusting.

The stupid card to pull on Rice of all people's behalf is pitiful. Poor "slow" Condi couldn't see what was happening as National Security Adviser and SoS. No, no not that "poor slooow" Condi, no way she could put it together.

Then the audacity to go with the "uninformed" jab is pretty sick. What evidence do you present to offset her rather impressive education and level of accomplishment that would shed light on her in actuality, rather limited intellect?

[Hissyspit]

193. She was part of the in-the-know crowd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9331415

[tammywammy]

34. +1 n/t

[Radical Activist]

44. Obama promised to consider diverse viewpoints rather than have Bush-style echo chamber.

Everyone thought that sounded like a good idea two years ago. This is what it looks like. Obama meant what he said.

[Luminous Animal]

47. Of course! And everyone knew that war criminals deserved a seat at the table.

To torture or not to torture...

Ethics is soooo hard.

[scheming daemons]

50. "Having a conversation with someone" does NOT equal "agreement with everything they've ever done"

The outrage over this beyond ridiculous.

[Luminous Animal]

53. I won't have conversations with torturers. Pretty much, once you admit to torture,

it doesn't matter that you like dogs.

[scheming daemons]

56. Which is why you'd never make a good leader

Nelson Mandela not only had conversations with his former captors and torturers, he hired many of them into his government.

It takes a great man to be a leader. One who can talk to ANYBODY.

[Radical Activist]

61. hah

We posted almost at the same time. A GMTA moment.

[WinkyDink]

177. Well, aren't you both special?

[Luminous Animal]

66. What you neglect to mention is that...

they admitted that the were captors and torturers.


No such reconciliation here.

It takes a great man to be a leader to publicly shame torturers and then lead a country to forgive them.

[scheming daemons]

72. Except Obama is not hiring her.... it's just a f*cking conversation

...

If he was talking to Ahmendinijad, it wouldn't upset me.

[Luminous Animal]

76. It's a fucking conversation with a person who tortured in MY NAME.

If he was talking to Ahmendinijad, I'd expect some lip service to human rights.

[scheming daemons]

77. talking to her does not endorse her actions.

...

[Luminous Animal]

89. Not prosecuting her does.

[muffin1]

149. +1,000,000,000 nt

[treestar]

122. Exactly, any President has to talk to bad people of one kind or another

Condi was SOS, she might have information he could use.

[WinkyDink]

179. Is that you, Condi?

[Radical Activist]

57. Reason number 1,402,379,127

why you're not President. People in positions of responsibility have to do more than stomp their feet and refuse to talk to people they don't like.

[Hardrada]

67. A trite and obvious observation but not to the point.

Truman was not on chatting terms with the defendants at Nuremberg a place where Rice and the other shameful imperialist killers should long since have been tried.

And how much do you get an hour for your verbal contortions, my good man?

[Radical Activist]

73. Uninformed example.

Truman met with Stalin, who did far worse than Rice.
He worked with political rivals like Herbert Hoover.
Truman is lucky that foreign leaders didn't take your attitude. They certainly would have been justified in refusing to speak with the man who ordered the dropping of the atomic bomb.

[Hardrada]

78. Hoover in the same category as Julius Streicher?

That won't work, old chap. And, of course, Stalin was a wartime Ally more or less a fact of life. The truth about the Gulag was not widely promulgated in those days. Hollywood war films of that era, in fact, were quite radiant about the USSR. When we became the odious national security state we are now the PTB cranked up the hate for the "Russkies."

[Radical Activist]

90. So now you're an apologist for Stalin's crimes

just to take a cheap shot at Obama. Sad.

Remember that Condi Rice is the category we're discussing. That Steicher line is a cute attempt to avoid and distort my point. Since you raised Nuremberg, do you put Rice's approval of waterboarding in the same category as Ernst Kaltenbrunner and others who oversaw concentration camps?

Hey, using your little tactic against you was kind of fun.

If you don't like those examples I'm sure we can come up with plenty of other nasty characters Truman met with. It's the nature of the job.

When did Iowans start using the phrase "old chap?"

[Hardrada]

187. It is spelled Streicher, sirrah, Remember not to type so quickly

in your zeal to spin and misinform us. I am saying simply (apparently I can't say it simply enough for you) that Americans were not up to speed on Gulags until much, much later. (Think Solzhenitsyn.) As to your creepy attempt at moral relativism, I will say a War Criminal is a War Criminal. And we have even less excuse than others since there is an American tendency to parade around the world as great Moral Crusaders and Arbiters of International Justice. Our policies of course under Bush Cheney Obama Biden are as dirty as anything you can imagine and all serve, as do you, whatever your real name is, to prop up a filthy murderous imperialism.

[Luminous Animal]

68. I grew up learning that we are a nation of laws not men. People in positions of

responsibility swear to uphold those laws. Liking is for tweenagers.

[scheming daemons]

75. And how does being "a nation of laws" have ANY bearing on who a Pres. talks to?

[Luminous Animal]

83. Ooooh, i don't know... somebody said some time some where about transparency and

accountability. It was a long long time ago.

[scheming daemons]

84. Where is the lack of transparency here? It wasn't a clandestine meeting...

[Luminous Animal]

86. Transparency AND accountability.

[muffin1]

112. Sure, it's usually good to listen to a wide variety of ideas.

Most of us draw the line at WAR CRIMINALS, though.

[Honeycombe8]

155. He's not taking advice from one of the cheerers of the Iraq War. He's mtg with a former Sec ofState

They'll discuss foreign policy. They'll also discuss a lot of other things. But take her advice? No more than Hillary would take her advice about being SOS.

I think it's great they're meeting. Rice has not been critical of the O administration, when she certainly could've been. Shows a little class. He has class, too. So two classy people, on different sides, meet. That's a good thing. I like to know that our leaders are classy and can meet and discuss things, even when they're on different sides.

Then there are those (we like to think they are only Republicans) who don't want the two sides to meet or get along, even just to have coffee.

[WinkyDink]

174. "Nobody could have predicted." "Uh...uh...uh.... uh...'BinLaden Determined to Strike...'."

[Swamp Rat]

31. Burn in Hell, Condi

If there is a Hell, she belongs there for at least a few eternities.

[girl_interrupted]

48. +1,000 from Louisiana and New York

I will never forget her coming to NY, buying thousands of dollars of shoes at Ferragamo on 5th avenue during Katrina. Was so happy to hear one of the shoppers yelling at her "How dare you shop while thousands of people are dying and homeless" What an insensitive witch, she is. Shopping and theater going during that tragedy.

And of course, what NY'er can ever forget her testimony before the 9/11 commision regarding the PDB in August 2001. After both she and bush denied knowing "anything", under oath she was forced to disclose what was in the PDB: "Bin Laden was determined to attack within the U.S." Not that she and bush did anything about that either.

To this day I will always respect Senator Barbara Boxer for going after Rice during her confirmation hearing. I wish others had.

Burn in Hell Condi , you uncaring piece of garbage.

[Gaedel]

126. Been a few years since I took an American Government course

"I will never forget her coming to NY, buying thousands of dollars of shoes at Ferragamo on 5th avenue during Katrina. Was so happy to hear one of the shoppers yelling at her "How dare you shop while thousands of people are dying and homeless" What an insensitive witch, she is. Shopping and theater going during that tragedy."


Please refresh my memory on the missions and functions of the State Department which pertain to internal natural disasters.

Sort of like blaming the head of the Veteran's Administration for the bombing of Cambodia.

[girl_interrupted]

150. Then maybe you should go back and take another American Government Course

Rice was President Bush's National Security Advisor during his first term. Well, we all know how that turned out. Just ignore the PDB's and Richard Clarke constantly begging for a meeting with both Rice & Cheney, beginning in January of 2001, and continuing all through that year. Never happened, unfortunately for us.

As for Katrina, while not in her purview as SoS, as a human being one would have to weigh what was more important to her..buying shoes, theater going, and ignoring the pleas of people stranded on their roofs or trying as so many other people did, who weren't even associated with that administration, seeking to get help for them.

Sorry, she wasn't much of a National "Security" advisor and even less of a human being when it came to helping her own country men in a time of need. You don't have to be an government offical to do that.

Interesting that you left out her role as National Security advisor, even though I put that in. Nice try.

[Gaedel]

156. She was not NSA when Katrina occurred.............

She was Secy of State.

Sec Def and Homeland Security had the ball for Katrina.

[readmoreoften]

194. Apologizing for the Bush Administration on Katrina. Something I never thought I'd see here.

Next election cycle you'll be apologizing for Glenn Beck or O'Reilly.

[Gaedel]

202. Yup, never allow truth to get in the way of a good rant

I don't blame Bush's Secy of Education for Iraq.

I don't blame the Bush's Veteran's Administration for Katrina.

I don't blame Bush's Secy of Defense for the 2008 financial meltdown.

Gee, I must love me some George Bush.

I am also pro-Katrina, pro-Iraq, pro-Wall Street, and I bite the heads off baby puppies.

[girl_interrupted]

215. Indeed you don't allow the truth to get in the way of your rant

Perhaps in addition to a course in American Government, you should also take a course in Reading Comprehension.

I'd like to know where I said I blamed her for Katrina.

What I did say were her actions during Katrina, when people were on their roofs begging for help & she was in NY having a good old time shopping & theater going, was deplorable. And no you don't have to be a government official to give a damn about people drowning or starving or dying of thirst. Dead bodies in the street rotting, shouldn't upset your weekend, right? You have shopping to do..and hell that's so much more important. Why would anyone find something wrong with that?

Bush going to birthday parties & Rice having a shopping spree. As Barbara Bush once said about young soldiers dying in Iraq: ""Why should we hear about body bags and deaths," Barbara Bush said on ABC's "Good Morning America" on March 18, 2003. "Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

Apparently you & Rice & Barbara all agree.

I watched Rice testify before the 9/11 committee and having to admit under oath, that from knowing "nothing", she knew of a possible attack along with her "boss" .

And as far as I'm concerned she can burn along side him in hell. She a piece of uncaring garbage, no matter the situation.

[girl_interrupted]

214. She was Bush's National "Security" Advisor on 9/11

and she sure as hell "dropped the ball" on that one.

[Gaedel]

225. Ummmm

We were talking about her going shopping during Katrina.

We were not talking about the overall balance of her pluses and minuses during the Bush years.

Was the ball dropped on 9/11? Certainly.
Was she part of the culpability for that? Probably.

Does any of that pertain to the appropriateness of a Secretary of State not getting involved in a domestic tragedy and leaving the effort need to the cabinet members responsible? No.

General George Marshall, a man I admire very much, used to spend an hour riding horseback every day during World War II regardless of how many soldiers might be dying on that day. He still did his part in winning WWII.

I would find the Navy Captain that refused to take her ship upriver to assist because she was afraid she would run the ship aground far more culpable in the suffering of New Orleans than the Secy of State going shopping.

[readmoreoften]

110. No, those images are outdated, Swamp Rat. Condi is our friend now.

She is not a lizard. She is woman of valuable political insights.

:sarcasm:

[HughMoran]

36. Yes, this is important.

:eyes:

[suzie]

207. If your agenda is to hate Obama 24/7, then YES.

[jillan]

37. Maybe he met with her to ask her why she ignored PDB dated 8/06/01?

[Radical Activist]

45. lol

That would have been awesome.

[grasswire]

43. Just another cup of "Get Over It"

Like rubbing salt in a wound, it is.

[scheming daemons]

46. The outrage over this is silly.... beyond ridiculous

She's a former Secretary of State.

If Madelein Albright had met with Bush, would that have been an outrage?

If Henry Kissinger met with Bill Clinton, would that have been an outrage?



He's a fucking head of state. Meeting with former high-level cabinet officials is not something to be outraged about.

It's part of the job.



In Banana Republics, heads of state refuse to meet with former govt officials of another political party.



"Outrages" like this are why people deride the "professional left".

It's ridiculous and stupid.

[Luminous Animal]

55. SHE'S A FUCKING WAR CRIMINAL. In banana republics, they abide and integrate war criminals.

[scheming daemons]

58. Screaming it in all caps doesn't make you right

Let me try:

MEETING WITH SOMEBODY IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT OF THAT PERSON'S ACTIONS


It's a fucking meeting.

[Luminous Animal]

88. With a war criminal.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

52. I'm wondering

why in hell she was on "The Daily Show?" Couldn't bear to watch it.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kenny blankenship]

65. Is she going to replace Gates after November?

[Kang Colby]

69. I don't see the outrage.

No need to be too worked up about this OP. I don't see anything wrong with our President picking the brain of a former leader. One thing I like about Obama is that he seems to seek diversified input across the political arena.

[muffin1]

114. Then why stop with Rice?

Why not ask Cheney over for advice, too? Maybe Liz could tag along - lord knows she has plenty of tips for Obama.

[Kang Colby]

116. not quite sure I agree with your slippery slope.....

......get back to me when he consults Cheney or Liz on their memoirs or foreign policy.

[muffin1]

117. Oh, yeah...

it's such a HUGE jump from Condi Rice to Dick Cheney. :eyes:

[Kang Colby]

118. Do you really believe that? nt

[Solly Mack]

70. Bookmarking

[upi402]

92. should sick DoJ on her, not...

whatever ya call what he does for them... and to us.

[orleans]

94. she's out hawking her fucking book and i just bet someone got an autographed copy!

gee, the unemployment numbers suck and we're paying him to meet with that asshole?

surely he could find better, more productive things to be doing while he's on the clock.

--from the post article: "But all week Rice has deftly maneuvered political minefields, refusing to join in criticism of the current administration while gently defending the decisions of the last one, including Bush's move to topple Saddam Hussein."

ugh.

[Scurrilous]

96. WTF

IT'S ORWELLIAN!!1!

[area51]

97. Is it so surprising?

He's following a lot of the same actions/policies of the Bush presidency, when not then consult with Completely Sleazy Rice?

[Individualist]

133. Not at all surprising to me

or to anyone else who understands the fact that DLC/NDC supports neocons.

[Greyhound]

98. The U.S. has a tradition of welcoming mass murderers and war criminals into the fold.

Still waiting for change?

[TBF]

99. Obama is definitely a defender of America's "interests" -

she pretty much summed it up with that last sentence. And the good ship Imperialism sails on ...

[blindpig]

100. What's next, Henry the K?

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kstewart33]

115. Sorry, but what's wrong with that?

Obama wanted her views on foreign policy and he got them.

He's done the same with many foreign leaders, past and present, who would abysmally fail any ethics/morality test.

[Panaconda]

119. A list of people Obama DID NOT MEET WITH

Maybe we need a list in this thread of people who Obama did not or refused to meet with.

How many peace activists or professional lefties is Obama sitting down with?

Maybe all the people on this thread who are suggesting Obama is agreeable to sitting down with all parties, being the open-armed and minded man that he is, could talk a little about Obama's meetings with
say Kathy Kelly or Cindy Sheehan or Noam Chomsky? No?

[treestar]

123. There are billions of people on this planet

He hasn't met with me either. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

There are plenty of people he hired who are left wing nuts according to the right wing nuts.

[Arkana]

131. Why on earth would Obama meet with Cindy "I Need The Camera On Me To Live" Sheehan?

[Panaconda]

144. He wouldn't

That's the point. When he says he is open to all views the reality is that he is only open to a very narrow set of views.

That's why no health care, continued aggressive foreign policy, continued increases in military budget, Wall St. bailout etc.

Amazing thread.

[girl gone mad]

153. Cindy Sheehan is an enemy of the people!

[Jakes Progress]

163. What a stupid, stupid thing to say.

[girl gone mad]

169. Just trying to be popular with the new crowd.

[Starry Messenger]

124. Capitalism is bipartisan.

Our foreign policy is dictated by the marketplace. Of course torture is still at the table, it isn't bad for business yet. These people don't think like people anymore.

[USArmyParatrooper]

130. I was wondering what the latest "outrage" against Obama would be.

He met with Rice and discussed foreign policy. Quick! Grab your pitch forks and torches!

Is there anyone outraged about this that has NOT partaken in post after post slamming the President? I'm just wondering if this latest smear converted anyone new or if it's just fodder for the same old same.

[readmoreoften]

195. Do you have your apologetics ready for when he's hanging out with Beck and Palin?

I just want to be ready.

[readmoreoften]

196. Do you have your apologetics ready for when he's hanging out with Beck and Palin?

I just want to be ready.

[Arkana]

134. I hate to tell you this, but guess who looks crazier in the picture in the OP?

I'll give you a hint--it's not Condi.

[jaxx]

138. I had to turn off my firewall to see that pic......

but it was worth it!

[metapunditedgy]

139. 2010: Condi advises the WH, people who say she has blood on her hands are "crazy."

Who would have believed it?

[Arkana]

140. I never disagreed with the idea that Condi was the architect of one of the worst

foreign policy frameworks the country's ever seen.

But smearing blood on your hands and waving them in her face is not the most compelling way to say that you disapprove. She could have made her point without the ridiculous theatrics that just blew back on her own organization.

[metapunditedgy]

141. I think the point is made very clearly in that picture. If anything, it's understated.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but protesting war is, sadly, a radical activity even under Democratic administrations.

[Panaconda]

143. Are you saying "be polite to war criminals?"

It was actually quite compelling. Ever try being nice to a barracuda?

Amazing to see the twisted logic and half-baked rationalizations for something that is so beyond the pale.

[Arkana]

151. I'm saying that waving blood-soaked hands in their faces

and having your picture end up on the evening news as the face of your organization is a terrible PR move.

But carry on raging against the machine.

[metapunditedgy]

159. The war machine is a disgusting abomination; you can pretend it's normal or acceptable.

But the people involved (from politicians to profiteers to mercenaries) are sick and subhuman. A little blood on the hands is a huge understatement of the trauma these worthless trash have inflicted on the rest of us.

[Panaconda]

186. I shall

And you sneer at that. Are okay with the machine trampling over everyone and everything? Seems so. Or do you just choose to live in quite resignation at the atrocities committed in your name.

Let's not worry too much about PR and political posturing. Let the truth be the frame. More people need to be speaking out and acting up.

[Radical Activist]

147. That picture deeply inspired many

California hippies who already opposed the war and wanted to relive the 70's anti-war protests they attended or watched on TV.

[metapunditedgy]

160. Those poor anachronistic hippies. War is the new peace, don't you know? n/t

[EFerrari]

161. Actually, that same group of people hosted a symposium on torture

this week at the University of California, Berkeley, which was attended by scholars and journalists from all over the world.

Maybe *you* are reliving the 70s, they're not. They're staying on the issues that matter to a civil society. Maybe you should turn off those reruns of "The Dukes of Hazard" and join us.

[Radical Activist]

165. In Berkeley. Really.

How brave of them to stand up as a lone voice for peace in a critical swing area like Berkeley. I'm sure the audience was full of people whose eyes were opened after hearing a message of peace for the first time. And I'm sure the most productive thing to do this close to an election is to get a group of upper middle class people together in California to talk at eachother. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

166. Anti-intellectualism, it's not just for tea baggers any more.

lol

[Radical Activist]

168. Anti-people who can't move beyond entry level activism tactics.

Intellectuals are fine if they can do something effective. It's cute that people think they're making a difference by holding symposiums in Berkley.
Your assumption that I'm anti-intellectual and your flippant remark about the Dukes of Hazzard is making your attitudes obvious enough. I'll keep organizing working class people in "flyover country" so you won't have to lower yourself.

[readmoreoften]

200. Oh right. Like you organize "working class people."

By organizing "working class people" you must mean union bashing and putting up lefty pictures on your posts. You are DELUDED if you think you support the working class. You have never posted a single pro-working class, pro-union ANYTHING since you've been on this website.

I'll stick with "entry level activism" if "pro-level activism" means being a bipartisan hack who apologizes for war criminals.

[Radical Activist]

205. Check yourself.

I don't know why you're such an angry person but you need to deal with that. I can't understand why you're even allowed to post on this site after writing that you hate Obama's supporters more than teabaggers. I've been a union member and union organizer. I've posted plenty of pro-union comments so you must be slacking off on your cyber-stalking. I don't know where all your hate comes from but you need to stop creating imaginary monsters in your head and act like a decent human being.

[suffragette]

208. Fascinating to read your assumptions and scorn in this post

Guess that would mean people like me who live in solid blue districts in places like Seattle don't count when we gather to discuss policy either, since my district itself is also far from a "swing area."
Add the assumption that anyone in such area who would care to discuss such an issue is "upper middle class."
And the scorn that we're just talking "at each other."

Instead of inclusion, you seem to need to try to drown us in waves of condescension.

Yet, both California and Washington are actually purple with many close statewide elections and the people staying active and meeting and discussing issues together are part of what helps shade the states toward the blue side of purple.

[Radical Activist]

212. If my comments had applied

to every blue area then that's what I would have written. There's no need to make it about you personally.

[suffragette]

213. What I wrote applies to Berkeley as much as Seattle

and I believe I stated that and drew the connection clearly.

[Radical Activist]

216. No,

it's not a relevant comparison. The two communities and scenarios are not at all the same. And your comments were out of context of the discussion, which was about the ineffectiveness of certain tactics.

[suffragette]

226. Sorry, you don't get to redefine what I wrote

I quoted your comments and pointed how condescending they were.
I addressed those comments directly.
I supported the relevance of what they were doing in Berkeley, tied it to civic awareness and pointed out that engaged blue areas such as these help tilt maps toward the blue.
And yes, I drew a comparison to Seattle where I live since we, in fact, do share much with Berkeley.

[readmoreoften]

199. Who cares who "looks" crazier? Truth is the truth. Monsters are monsters.

I'm sure that detainees at black sites "look crazier" than those torturing them. Sociopaths are often calm and collected. Shallow much?

[AtomicKitten]

142. They were discussing the Russian arms treaty, her field of expertise.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x478965

But Speculation Roulette is fun!

[EFerrari]

162. There is nothing that can't be justified here any more. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

185. FFS when did posting a link with info become justification? Justification of what?

That he met with her? That has already been established. The link I posted offered information re: what they talked about. So, what's your problem? You don't like what they talked about or you don't like her? Hey, who doesn't? So what? On edit: Oh, I get it. You don't think he should have met with her. When did you become the sphincter police? FFS. BFD.

Ferris Bueller: "Pardon my French, but Cameron is so tight that if you stuck a lump of coal up his ass, in two weeks you'd have a diamond."

[EFerrari]

209. It's so funny. Yesterday, someone tried to chew me out

for participating in a symposium on torture this close to an election.

LOL

I should have been hosting war criminals instead, I suppose.

:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

211. That makes no sense whatsoever which explains this thread nicely. nt

[WinkyDink]

173. Oh, BFD. Back when Russia wasn't.

[Puregonzo1188]

145. War is bipartisan in this country.

Honestly, that shouldn't be news at this point.

And it didn't start in the last ten years either.

[Rex]

148. I really don't care, Sleazy Rice has the clout to see Obama. This

changes nothing about her epic failures. The meeting is just PR mush and a waste of time. :eyes:

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

172. I had the EXACT SAME REACTION. WTH??? Now Obama meets with a WAR CRIMINAL, TRAITOR, and PERJURER?

ALL of which Rice embodies.

Go ahead; act all Miss Priss about my use of capitalization.
Defend Rice.
Then KMBWA.

I guess now Condi will favor her new husb...President.

[maryf]

182. Approves Hilary too...

how nice :grr: ...(and why shouldn't she?)

K&R... this is just further evidence that the coup d'etat of this country is fait complait...

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[earth mom]

188. I share your outrage and am DISGUSTED by the DUers I see on this thread defending Obama.

Some of you really need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if this would have been acceptable to you with ANY other dem like Gore or RFK Jr. or Howard Dean or Kucinich.

But it's all good when Obama does it, ain't that so?!

What a vile piss poor excuse! :puke:

[Egnever]

192. Seriously?

You seriously have your panties in a knot cause he met with someone? It is common courtesy and the fact that you see it as anything different speaks reams about you and anyone else who thinks this is some sort of scandal.

[Hissyspit]

197. Condoleeza Rice is an unindicted war criminal.

She does not have common courtesy coming to her.

This action is actually quite telling concerning the culture of non-accountability that has been brought to Washington. The degree of "scandalous" of this is certainly debatable, but the fact that some are not a least somewhat disturbed by the symbolism of this says reams about them.

[readmoreoften]

201. So, I guess Bush and Cheney are next. She is Bush's best friend.

I regret voting for Obama.

[Panaconda]

203. Came across this:

"By the way, I would reach out to the first George Bush. You know, one of the things that I think George H.W. Bush doesn't get enough credit for was his foreign policy team and the way that he helped negotiate the end of the Cold War and prosecuted the Gulf War. That cost us 20 billion dollars. That's all it cost. It was extremely successful. I think there were a lot of very wise people. So I want a bipartisan team that can help to provide me good advice and counsel when I'm president of the United States."

- Barack Obama on LARRY KING LIVE: March 20, 2008

[Nye Bevan]

204. Brings to mind the last paragraph of "Animal Farm"

No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

[Jeneral2885]

210. All have blood of their hands

All, whther advisers or Presidents, have blood ontheri hands. That goes especially for those who authorised the overthrow of legitimate governments in Central America that were NOT a communist threat to the US.

[boppers]

221. What next, will he MEET WITH HILLARY?

500,000 killed on her husband's watch, and he's going to have the gall to *talk* to her?

Oh, wait, what's that? He gave a job?

WHERE?

Oh.

FFS.

:shrug:

[Imagevision]

222. And Chevron actually named a tanker after Condi...