People are hysterical about the invasion by "illegals" while we are occupying Iraq at gunpoint

[NNN0LHI]

Anyone else notice the irony here?

Don

[laureloak]

1. Open your eyes! They're furious about both! n/t

[NNN0LHI]

2. I don't know one single person who gives two shits about immigration off line

That is the truth.

Don

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. The vast majority of Americans support amnesty.

Heh.

[EFerrari]

9. Not to hijack but your "amnesty" thread

made me remember when we used it to refer to people who went to Canada to avoid being cannon fodder in Viet Nam. It was a good thing.

I've never seen such horrendous nativism in this country before. Last time things were this ugly, the good people of San Francisco were excoriating Willie Mays for marrying a white woman. So sad.

[RebelOne]

24. If that's true, then consider me in the minority. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. OK

But I won't demand your deportation.

[Madspirit]

34. hee

Good for you Bornagin. Great retort and I agree with the sentiment!
Lee

[Deja Q]

40. I wonder how Canadians feel about amnesty to illegal Americans...

Ditto for the English who get illegal yanks...

I'm sure some Americans wouldn't mind moving to India to get a job or two... but India's working on their own people right now...

Nothing is ever so simplistic as one article makes things out. Or maybe it is. And maybe those who "don't give two shits" had read up on things in the past and gave up... I dunno.

[LoZoccolo]

42. I think I'd rather like going to Norway or some such country as well!

But yeah, like you say, almost every other country is way stricter.

[NNN0LHI]

49. I would hope that the Canadian governments attitude toward immigration has improved...

...compared to those outlined in paragraph 4 of post # 29.

I hope so anyway.

Don

[unpossibles]

11. I do.

But I also doubt any of them actually know any real Mexicans. Just like how they've been told to hate all Muslims and do so without actually getting to know any.

[EFerrari]

13. I feel very worried about my friends in the Latino community --

citizens, residents and undocumented. Very worried with these ICE raids and all this hatred. You can practically hear callers to WJ spitting into their telephones.

[unpossibles]

17. I agree. Not to mention that most racist/bigoted idiots

won't stop and ask someone if they're legal/illegal or whatever, just jump to a conclusion. And a lot of things they hate are ot even obvious - I watched a RWer make a bunch of racist remarks to a friend of mine who is a legal Mexican-American without a Mexican sounding name. When my friend (who is about 6'4" btw) finally said, "yeah, well I'm Mexican" the guy got all shy and shut his mouth.

[EFerrari]

18. Half of my cousins are fair like me, half have curly dark hair, brown eyes

and KIDS. We're the second generation, all vote with Democrats and well, as I said, I'm worried.

After 9/11, I organized escorts for Muslim neighbors who were afraid to leave their homes. I hope I never have to do that again. :(

[Madspirit]

45. We Did That Too

We did that with Muslims here too. It never really got bad here but some were very afraid.
Lee

[JANdad]

32. My wife is Puerto Rican

and works at Kmart. Just the other night some redneck whitetrash female complained to the store manager about her accent :grr:

So much the talking point "Learn English"

[EFerrari]

35. If we had tape of the Founders, they would ALL have accents.

My mom used to get asked all the time if she knew "Maria" and if her people were "out of the trees" yet.

Ugly days ahead. Buckle up, compadre.

[treestar]

28. And when they do meet a Mexican they like, they always think

that particular individual, who is so honest and hard working, should have a special category all to himself and they express frustration that all those rotten other Mexicans should leave but not their friend. Who is legally no better off that that mass of other Mexicans. But it never fails.

[EFerrari]

38. It's the same "I got mine" mentality that we find so ugly at those other places. nt

[Deja Q]

37. And it's also said people who don't read news online are sheep.

What is the truth?

[NNN0LHI]

43. Reading news online and knowing people off line are completely different things

That is the truth.

Don

[irislake]

3. Yup!

And you stole it from the Mexicans in the first place. Nice to see them taking it back.

[Efilroft Sul]

26. "Stealing" Mexican territory is an oversimplification.

The 1840s was a rather complex time in American history. Culturally speaking, times like that weren't seen again until the 1920s and 1960s.

In the 1840s, the United States saw Great Britain lurking everywhere it wanted to expand, especially in the Pacific Northwest and the Republic of Texas. The desire to annex Texas wasn't just a Manifest Destiny thing, it was also a "blunt Britain" thing. Furthermore, the Texas matter divided both the United States and Mexico. In the United States, abolitionists tried to block Texan annexation for fear that many slave states would be created from the territory. In Mexico, the Centralist dictatorship under Santa Anna rattled its sabre every time the United States and Texas talked about a union. But the Mexican Centralists (usurpers, really) were opposed by Federalists who supported a return to the rule of Constitutional law. In 1844, Santa Anna was exiled to Cuba and a Federalist named Jose Herrera became acting Mexican president.

Herrera supported negotiating with the United States about annexing Texas. But once Texas was annexed, the Centralists in Mexico blew their stack. Political pressure by the Centralists on Herrera in December 1845 forced him to rebuff American ambassador John Slidell. In short order, Herrera was forced out of office by Mariano Parades and Slidell was sent home. Parades intended to take back Texas. Indeed, he bragged about taking New Orleans and Mobile, too.

After diplomacy failed, President Polk sent General Zachary Taylor's army to the mouth of the Rio Grande to defend Texas against an invasion. Taylor arrived at the end of March 1846. Parades declared war against the United States on April 23, and the eagle and the jaguar finally had at it to see which country would control North America. Word of the Mexican attack finally reached Polk on May 9. Four days later, Congress declared war on Mexico.

When the United States defeated Mexico (led by a restored Santa Anna) in Mexico City in 1847 and rolled up the Mexican ports on the Pacific in January 1848, our country now controlled the territories that make up the American southwest as we know it today. And as they say, to the victor belongs the spoils.

For what it's worth, there was an "All Mexico" faction in Congress that sought to take over the entire country of Mexico, but abolitionists -- fearing a swell of new slave states -- blocked what would have been a truly spectacular land grab.

So did the United States "steal" Mexican land? From your 21st-century viewpoint, yes. But the United States and Mexico were sizing each other up for 20 years prior to the war. Both countries knew that when push came to shove, there would be one winner and one loser. Winning back then was defined as taking the loser's territory.

Is there legitimacy in this flood of people coming up from Mexico into our southwestern states and claiming our turf "their" land or creating Aztlan? No, and hell no.

First, most immigrants from Mexico are here illegally. For all of our complaining about all the illegal things the Bush administration has done, if you selectively ignore the rule of law regarding immigration, it makes us no better than the slimy politicians in Washington.

Second, illegal immigrants are not assimilating into the American culture, leading to the Palestinization of the southwest. Look, I'm an Italian-American, and I love my cultural heritage. But when I step outside of my neighborhood, I step out into the American culture at large and act as an American, not as an Italian. The illegals, however, are not doing this. I expect all immigrants coming to America to obey our laws, swear loyalty to our country and our country alone, and be good citizens. If somebody is emigrating to our shores, do it the right way: legally.

Third, letting illegal immigrants of any nationality off the hook is a slap in the face to immigrants who became citizens the right way or are in the process of doing so.

Fourth, any claim of "taking back" land goes back to a war more than 150 years ago in which Mexico wasn't exactly the victim. Rather, it was the aggressor. If Mexicans harbor such a grudge against the United States for taking its territories, they ought to get over it and finally start taking care of the corruption and poverty in their own land.

I realize that cheap-labor employers are also a major part of the immigration problem, but I will not stand for this country being overrun by lawlessness. Either we are one nation or we are not. Either we abide by the rule of law or we don't.

[NNN0LHI]

29. Our rule of law prevented the S.S. St. Louis from docking here too. Do you agree with that?

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/148.htm

<snip>Now that the ship could not dock in Cuba, Captain Schroeder sailed it to the Florida coast. There he hoped that the United States would admit the passengers. Desperately trying to avoid a forced return to Germany and certain death, the passengers – more than 400 of whom were women and children, and many of whom actually had quota numbers to eventually enter the United States – sent a telegram to Roosevelt asking for help. They received no reply. The State Department sent word that it would not interfere in Cuban affairs and refused to allow the passengers to come ashore. In fact, even as the ship was entering Florida’s territories, the Coast Guard had fired a warning shot in its direction. The captain knew that there was no choice but to turn back toward Germany.

Sailing along the coast of Florida on its way to Europe, the St. Louis was shadowed by a Coast Guard ship to prevent passengers from swimming to freedom in the United States. The New York Times lamented, “Off our shores she {the St. Louis} was attended by a helpful Coast Guard vessel alert to pick up any passengers who plunged overboard and thrust them back…The refugees could even see the shimmering towers of Miami…the battlements of another forbidden city.”

The passengers on the S.S. St. Louis had left Germany with joy. Now they were returning there with dread. Passengers pleaded with world leaders to give they asylum so that they could avoid going back to Germany. The Joint Distribution Committee and other agencies did manage to persuade four countries to admit them. They were Belgium, Holland, France, and England. Within a year, however, the Nazis occupied the first three of these countries and most of the passengers eventually perished in concentration camps. Only those in England were saved. Thus, this incident has received the moniker, “The Voyage of the Damned.”

For Hitler, the case of the S.S. St. Louis marked a stunning victory. It proved that, in spite of the protestations of the Allied leaders to the contrary, they didn’t want Jews in their countries any more than he wanted them in his. In fact, when a Canadian official was asked how many Jews fleeing from Nazi Europe could be admitted to Canada, he responded: “None is too many.” This eventually became the title of a book, describing Canada’s draconian refugee policies.

Unfortunately, our own government was no more hospitable than the rest. To most American Jews, President Franklin D. Roosevelt was a hero. Yet, behind the scenes, he succumbed to the anti-Semitic and nativist pressures of the State Department and placed severe restrictions on the refugee quotas.

[Efilroft Sul]

30. You're asking me to be FDR, and I won't assume to be him.

The Immigration Act of 1924 (National Origins Act) changed the quota system, and FDR was following what was the law. Yes, I'll grant you that the law was crafted in prejudice against Russians and southern Europeans (and it nearly forbid all Asians from entering the United States), but that's the way it was. Should prejudice be eliminated from such laws? Should such laws be changed? Of course.

The problem with your question is that we living in 2007 know that the Jews were going to be exterminated in the Holocaust, but those like FDR living in 1938 did not have that foresight.

Again, my problem with illegal immigration is the entire illegal aspect of it and the consequences resulting from it. It has nothing to do with prejudice on my behalf.

[EFerrari]

41. Mien Kampf had already been out for 12 years. One didn't need prescience

in 1938.

[EFerrari]

31. Either you're with us or you're with the Mexicans -- er, terraists.

[Madspirit]

36. I'm a Texan!

I support amnesty and I have MANY illegal friends whom I will hide and/or protect even at risk to myself.
Racism under the guise of florid prose. Blech.
Lee

[diamidue]

50. I'm with you. n/t

[Efilroft Sul]

56. Where in any of my posts was I racist?

Put up or shut up.

[LanternWaste]

60. Me too...

Me too.

And I don't feel the least bit un-American when I tell my friends and co-workers that the young lady I've been dating for a few weeks is an illegal immigrant. (she told me her plan was to come to America and date the guys that no other American's would date :sarcasm: )

I guess it boils down to this (to paraphrase Victor Hugo)-- which is more important to you: imaginary red and black lines on a map or people?

[ceile]

62. "Palestinization of the southwest"?

I don't get it. Are you comparing Israel's occupation to the fact that we have many established Mexican towns in TX? Or that the US may turn into a sort of occupying power in the southwest?

[Efilroft Sul]

63. Two scenarios for Palestinization.

Palestinization could mean the possibility of having a permanent second-class set of inhabitants (not full-fledged citizens), as the illegals are today. The only real winners of this scenario are cheap-labor conservatives.

Palestinization could also mean the influx of illegal immigrants will push for an independent Aztlan state carved out of United States territory. No way, no how that must be allowed to happen. The integrity of this nation must remain intact.

Neither possibility is good for the future well-being of the United States. This country prides itself on e pluribus unum; from many, one. Palestinization of the southwest is kind of a return to "separate but equal," but with a 21st century twist.

Again, I will point out that if Mexicans come here legally, assimilate, and become productive citizens, I'm all for it. I am, after all, a descendant of immigrants as I suspect most on DU are. If, one day, the majority of our nation's citizens is Hispanic, fine. But I want the United States to be the United States, a country with a strong, unified national identity, not some polyglot mess.

[progressoid]

53. And the Spanish stole it from the Mayans, Aztecs, et. al. So.....

From your comment can we assume that you would also find it nice to give Ontario back to the Algunquin, Iroquois, Cree, Ojibwa et. al.?

[shance]

4. You forgot the Administration is committing mass genocide in our name

and will be off to Paraguay buying more water rights, as we are beseiged by angry foreign legions that this Administration has funded and created.

[baldguy]

8. Bushco was installed illegally, has shredded the Constitution & has murdered a million people

And the anti-immigrant people want to strip search & torture housekeepers & landscapers if they don't happen to have the right kind of identity papers. That's MUCH more important.

[rucky]

6. With all these threats to America, we need a draft ASAP! n/t

[EFerrari]

7. I'm used to the authoritarians projecting their cR@P! all over

but when the same talking points crop up' here, that's hard to take. This may be a good week to start a Lounge movie thread. :(

[snappyturtle]

10. Your irony is like an optical illusion....focus too long on one and

the other pops up! SOME would say the Iraqis and the Americans have something in common...and we're not doing much of anything to help either situation.

[EFerrari]

12. Except Iraq never interfered with our elections to make sure

their cronies would stay in power and rip us off. Or did I miss that part? :silly:

[snappyturtle]

15. I wouldn't be so sure of that. With money missing, no bid contracts,

payoffs.....I wouldn't doubt there are Iraqis who through self interest and corporate connections do indeed effect our elections. Chalabi comes to mind....ex pat that he is but..........

[EFerrari]

16. Please tell me Chalabi didn't steal Ohio on top of everything else!

lol

:hi:

[snappyturtle]

19. Glad to make you laugh! No, I didn't say

Chalabi stole Ohio---did I? I just think matters are so convoluted and nefarious today that he and others like him COULD EFFECT our elections....there are lots of secrets we are learning about that the repukes don't want us to learn about. Some of those secrets could be their cozy relations with unscrupulous Iraqi people.....:hi:

[EFerrari]

20. Oh, no kidding. BushCo attracts criminals like my brother attracts

ice cream and pretty girls.

lol

:)

[snappyturtle]

23. I have a son like that! nt

[Vexatious Ape]

14. Great point--I'll use that at work today--shamelessly.

[blondeatlast]

21. Yes, indeed. And DU eats it up like ice cream.

:thumbsup:

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Typically, people can be steered to obsess over a non-problem

more easily than they can be steered to obsess over a problem.

People want their representatives to do something about the war (they don't know what, but something.) Yet everyone seems to have their own little "plan" to deal with our dusky-skinned neighbors.

It's only been 42 years since the U.S. officially abandoned racism in immigration policy. We shouldn't expect total equity by now. I see "illegal" immigrants as I see marijuana users and gays who marry: people who follow the laws that should be, rather than the laws at are. People will bark "the LAW is the LAW!" but I think some here still remember laws in the South that really deserved to be broken (and hence eventually repealed).

And I don't believe the effect on either government funds or the job market has been more than minimal. Wages are low because the minimum wage is too low and executive compensation is too high. Localities are underfunded because taxes are spent on the wrong things. A tax on the marijuana sold in this country would probably have a revenue impact fifty times greater than the negative impact of "illegals."

[treestar]

27. This is one law that deserves breaking

It is illogical to the point of insanity. It may have worked in 1952 (its year of origin, to be amended 54,983 times but not in any meaningful way).

I met a couple who "waited their turn" and came legally. They came under the brother and sister quota, which is so backed up, that they are over 50 by the time they get here. They don't learn English at that age and they never really assimilate. They never will.

They cannot become citizens after five years of permanent residence, because they can't speak English. They can become citizens without learning English with 15 years, so they will become citizens at the age of 65.

We let in any high faluting degreed professional who really doesn't care, and will leave for another country if there's a better job offer, but not want to lose the green card he was so gallantly handed, even though he plans to spend the next five years in another country.

We just don't offer a legal way to people who want to live here. We offer it to people who hardly care one way or the other.

[Madspirit]

39. Right On!...n/t

[Madspirit]

33. k&r from an amnesty supporter!

...and a war hater.
Lee

[Imagevision]

44. I'm surprised repugs haven't figured to draft all illegals to Iraq & if they make it back

give them they're green card, - at least the Dem's would allow them to become US. citizens.

[trail1312]

46. Succinct Post…

I cannot put this anymore simply.  If your ears are open this
is the best time to impeach Bush.  He has gone out of his way
for his legacy with the amnesty bill and alienated the right. 
Does it not seem weird that Bush is backing a bill sponsored
by La Raza and Kennedy?  Where is his base?  Were there boos
at a republican meeting in South Carolina and Alabama?  What
is rush saying about it?

I am sure there are many smart people on this board.   They
can put it more eloquently than I can.  

Quit fragmenting your energy.  There are multiple posts on the
same issue.  The underlying idea that will solve it all is his
impeachment.  What if the left and right decided to offer him
up as sacrifice and meet up in the primaries for the lawful
debate and direction of the country?

[L. Coyote]

47. Can we trust the numbers in the hype? Is this the new BROWNSHIRT issue?

[trail1312]

48. I'm not sure what the "brownshirt issue" is

I have personally decided to post to this joint.  I guarantee
that I will disagree with the opinions of most people on this
board.  It just seems there is a grassroots effort on both
sides that do not agree with the way things are.  Is there a
place for honest discussion without the talking points of both
parties being spewed?  I honestly do not believe that America
is as divided as they will lead us to believe.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

51. the goops need a diversion from their OIL WAR

THIS IS JUST ALL THEATRE.

WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT YOU SAW A REAL REPORTER ON THE FRONT LINES.

[K8-EEE]

52. My view from Los Angeles....

I'm kind of shocked that this is all the sudden this big panic. It's like Bill Maher said, "OK Mexicans -- the gravy train is over, if you think we're gonna let you keep cleaning our toilets and do all our other crappy jobs for no money, that fun ride is done!"

I was in the West Valley last week for my daughter's dental appt., it was early in the a.m. and it struck me as bizarre (I live in a more working class neighborhood) to see busloads of latinos getting off the bus from downtown going to take care of everybody's kids and lawns and houses in Encino. I was thinking to myself, I wonder how many of their employers in Encino are pukes who complain about "the costs of illegal immigration!" All except (their maid) of course, she's been with us for years, she's FABULOUS....

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. Okay, tiime for the hard question.

Most of the illegal alien uproar is over Mexicans. What kinds of jobs are these Mexicans taking? Answer: manual labor. Not the kinds of jobs that you'd associate with the Middle Class. But where is the uproar over the Irish, British and other nationalities with better educations who are sneaking in and getting tech jobs or other jobs that a middle class Americans can do?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

55. The problem for many is that EVERYTHING is out of control -nt

[KoKo]

58. Good Point and Immigration is a great tool for the Repugs because

it's always about "brown people" to them. They have to find ways to stir up hate and deflect from their policies that undermine America.

While we have immigration problems, they are fixable by reasoned people. We seem to have a lack of those around these days. Fine the Businesspeople who hire illegals. But, the Chamber of Commerce enjoys it's membership who do hire them.

I don't blame people for coming here to find work...but if they are illegal and they are hired it's the responsibility of those hiring them to check. If the documents are falsified then let it go to court.

Problem is that all Bush's Real Estate Bubble was built on the back of those illegals who were here working 24/7 in construction and the fast food trade which boomed to feed them. The biggest influx was during the Bush II years...but no one wants to talk about that....

Anyway...there are problems that can be fixed and ways to humanely deal with the families that are here without "deportation" and separating families. But, the Repugs would rather push hatred whip up fear than deal with anything from a rational or fair and humane point of view or legislation.

:-(

[Stevepol]

57. My solution for the problem (half lib, half conserv):

The "anger" comes because of the people coming across the border "illegally." People want the laws enforced. It it's illegal, it's illegal.

Here's my half-cocked solution:

1. Begin to really prosecute the employers who hire the illegals and make it a mandatory 6 months or $10,000 if you're caught hiring an illegal. Use all moneys to support the border patrols, build prisons, etc. I think during about a 2-year period in the Clinton Admin about 400 cases were brought against employers for this crime; in the Bush admin in a comparable period, about 4. There's a message there.

2. For those illegals coming across the border, warn them the first time that the second time they are caught coming across illegally, they will automatically receive 6 months prison or $5,000 fine. Use all the moneys to support the border patrol agents, build prisons, etc. The third and all succeeding times they're caught, 1 year prison and $10,000. I really think this will be better for those coming across illegally as well as those on this side of the border and it will definitely mute the "rage" of the folks who believe, probably rightly, that many criminals (esp drug dealers) are corrupting the cities along the border, making them into drug gang outposts. It's the "illegality" of it that enrages citizens. Why reward crime? It's a hard argument to counter.

3. Tear down the fence and build bigger prisons along the border, which will be necessary for the time being, at least until the illegals get the message. And if this is done consistently in every state, both borders, they will get the message, and the extra prisons sold off and the money used for Maytag washing machines for the border patrol people whose jobs will now be a good deal cushier.

4. Go ahead with the programs to deal with those already in the country illegally, but if individuals don't turn themselves in, make it mandatory as above, 6 months or $5,000 as above. And second and subsequent violators, 1 year and $10,000. Of course, there'd have to be a lot of qualifications in dealing with this part of it because of families and so on.

5. Make it the same for all immigrants from all countries.

6. Make it easier for immigrants to come from MX "legally." And publicize it in MX as well as the US, so that those who have a real desire to come for economic reasons can come. Something like a bracero program for those who want to come "legally" for a certain prescribed period of time would also be a good idea for both "guest workers" and the business that claim they need to labor. It would also be easier to require humane treatment of the workers.

7. Invest in the border in ways that might really help the economies of both countries, hopefully help MX grow their own economy.

The only place where I think Dems would have a problem is #2. Incidentally, the idea of imprisoning those caught for about 6 months has been tried in several places along the border according to some TV reports I've seen and the illegals very soon stopped coming across in those areas.

[ecstatic]

59. Then you have those who are furious about the war & frustrated by undocumented workers

People who feel compassion with regard to the plight of undocumented workers but at the same time, find that they can no longer provide for their own families as the warehouse/ construction / carpentry industries prefer exploiting illegal workers? :shrug:

[spoony]

61. Best post of the thread!

:thumbsup: