If people can pay a fee for fire department service, and they choose not to pay

[raccoon]

but the fire department will come anyway, then where's the incentive for anyone to pay the fee? If you then pay the fee, you are a chump, because your neighbors who didn't will get the same service you do--and for free.

And don't say it's the same with health care--health care is NOT free in Canada, UK, Germany, anywhere. It is paid for with their taxes. I doubt seriously the citizen of Canada, UK, etc., gets to opt out of paying taxes for her health care, gambling that she won't get sick.

[slackmaster]

1. Fees need to be enforceable. I could go for years and years without paying property tax...

...but the fact that the county could foreclose on my home sooner or later provides plenty of incentive for me to comply.

[raccoon]

4. Good point. nt

[northoftheborder]

10. Fee system bad. A lot of rural county fire departments are volunteer, but

but the county pays for equipment out of the county taxes.

[sandnsea]

2. Gosh there's the argument for insurance mandates

And how many of the people arguing to let the house burn are also beating the fuck out of Obama for the insurance mandate.

Do you think no one ever got a fire put out who hadn't paid their property taxes?

And is that really what you're saying this country should be? Pay or die?

[Fumesucker]

5. Umm.. That *is* what this country is right now..

And will be even after HCR is completely in effect..

Pay or die, or possibly pay and die anyway if you can't afford the copays and deductibles..

[sandnsea]

9. Well no it isn't, but thanks for playing n/t

[Fumesucker]

23. Really? People don't die in the USA of treatable diseases?

Practically every convenience store I patronize has a jar on the counter for someone begging money to fight leukemia or some other dire condition..

[sandnsea]

28. No, people don't lay in the street and die

while EMTs stand around and watch.

[Fumesucker]

36. Nice dodge..

Why the donation jars in the convenience stores if doctors and hospitals will perform the treatment without payment?

[sandnsea]

39. I don't dodge anything

The issue in question is a health service provider standing around watching somebody die. It doesn't happen. Period.

Now whether a fire department should come out and inspect your wiring or your chimney to prevent a fire is another question. And someone might ask for help to get that done, although I doubt anyone would care enough to collect money in jars.

But my point is not to have a discussion on the health care bill - rather to point out that many of the same people who think there shouldn't be mandates are the ones who are more than happy to let this guy's house burn. What does that point tell you? Hmmm, to me it should tell you that they would be all for allowing you the choice to not pay health care taxes or premiums, and tell you to take a hike when you got sick.

And that doesn't sound like any Democrat to me.

Perhaps some folks who think they're liberals, are actually libertarians.

[Fumesucker]

40. No, the issue is people dying of treatable conditions due to lack of treatment..

You said it does not happen in the US, that is completely false.

I completely support single payer health care funded by universal and progressive taxation.

Does that sound like a libertarian to you?

[KittyWampus]

14. County residents made their choice as to what fire department funding they wanted

and each individual home owner makes the choice if they are going to pay the fee. Or not.

I am happy to live in Yankee territory where our considerable tax payer dollars go to fund municipal services and our citizens volunteer for our fire department.

[Marr]

27. Fire Departments aren't for-profit corporations.

That's the difference. Everyone who is for Single Payer is for taxes to fund it.

[HereSince1628]

3. BUT!!! If lightening strikes a power pole and it sets my house on fire

It was an ACT OF GOD and to get even, I SHOULD WORSHIP SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And this thread should be moved to Theology and Religion where magic thinking is accepted.

[JVS]

6. There is no incentive.

Unless the price of going without is perceptibly higher than the price of coverage, then there will be free-riding.

[wtmusic]

7. Another reason why fee-based fire protection fails miserably.

Comparing it to health care is problematic though.

If your house is on fire, it will likely burn to the ground without attention. A good deal of medical care is elective or borderline-elective, however: if I don't get rid of these spider veins, I'm not going to die.

Yet obviously health care has to deal with more than life-threatening emergencies. So how do we define sick? Does health care include the cost of vitamins, and things that make me feel better about myself?

Big questions. Hard questions.

[stopbush]

18. Exactly. NYC had subscription fire services at one time.

It didn't work out so good, did it?

What's next? Subscription police?

This is an example of anti-government conservatism run amok. They so hate government and they so believe that government can do no good that they end up with these kinds of situations.

[smirkymonkey]

44. How about a subscription Department of Defense??

That way, everyone who is afraid of being killed by a terrorist can pay a "fee" to "opt-in" to funding our seemingly never-ending wars, while those of us willing to take the responsibility for our own deaths should we get blown up by a suicide bomber can just "opt-out"?

[left is right]

34. Another reason why fee-based fire protection fails miser — all of us on DU agrees

but this is the system that they chose for themselves. And I here in Indiana can’t vote in their elections so I have no say in the matter but I think the homeowner must have a gambling problem because he gambled and lost

[stopbush]

38. Unless that vote was 100% in favor, there were some people

who did not "vote this for themselves."

This is dangerous territory and unworkable territory. There are certain things that should never be put to these stupid public referendums, and BASIC services like police and fire protection fall into that category.

The right thing to happen is for politicians to take a stand that taxes are necessary to fund programs that benefit entire communities, like police and fire protection. What should be examined here is the trend in this country to put basic human needs (fire protection) and basic human rights (gay marriage) up for a vote by a public that is woefully uninformed and hopelessly self-centered about what constitutes the price of living in a civilized society.

I would hope that this man's home burning down would shame that county into changing its policies.

[Mumble]

8. I won't want to live next door...

to someone who doesn't pay and as a result my house burns down because the fire department didn't respond to the guy who didn't pay. I'd want that fire out immediately and take no chance that it could spread over to my house 10 feet away. So point is I don't want that house burning down next to mine. I want that fire out ASAP.

[wtmusic]

11. In this case, the FD only responded because the neighbor's field caught on fire

and he had paid for the service.

In very real terms, we are responsible for our neighbor and they for us.

[MadHound]

12. What you do is then charge the person for the fire department services

Usually that charge is much more expensive than what fees would have cost you over the past decade or more. Sometimes the insurance settlement will cover that large charge (though your insurance rates will go up), sometimes not. Either way, the money you pay out will be an incentive for you to keep your subscription paid up in the future.

Oh, and if you don't pay for that charge, then it is turned over to the county prosecutor, then you're in deep shit.

[COLGATE4]

16. No, you're wrong. There are no legal grounds to try and collect the

fee after the fact. Much less a criminal charge (i.e. turn it over to the country prosecutor).

[wtmusic]

20. Then this bill I have from the local Fire Department for responding to my

car accident must be a cruel joke.

[sandnsea]

31. Really? What's that about?? n/t

[MadHound]

22. Oh, gee, then having been a firefighter on a volunteer fire department, and seeing this happen,

I guess I simply don't know what the fuck I'm talking about then. Is that what you're saying, that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about?

Sorry, but every resident in a fire district that has a volunteer fire department is informed, usually in person, of their options. They either sign up and pay a subscription fee, or they don't and informed that they will be charged for services rendered. It is a contract, and like other contracts, it will be enforced.

But hey, I was on a volunteer fire department for a number of years, what the fuck would I know:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Apparently the law in TN is different

from any you are familiar with, or for that matter me...

Yes I was told I did not understand how mutual aid works as well. Never mind I even did it across international borders.

:-)

No, the people who here are defending this... I gave them a solution. One that don't give me pleasure. The City, since it cannot get their money back... should just stop that mutual aid agreement. Otherwise they are also legally liable for just sitting pretty... But apparently I don't know that either.

:hi:

We know nothing's of the world should unite!

[MadHound]

45. Yeah, I guess I'm just a crazy old duffer now,

Who doesn't know how things work in this brave new world.

What's experience for when you have libertarianism uber alles?

Me, I'm going to go walk my dogs and work outside on this beautiful fall day. It will help me forget all the assholes in this world, at least for awhile.

Thanks for being one of the ones who help, on this side of the border and on the other side. This country wouldn't have gotten very far in this world without the kind of community help you and I and millions of others provided without regards to money, that's something that the libertarians either can't, or won't learn from the history books.

:hi:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. To add to your idea ...

The county and fire departments should lobby the state, or whatever authority necessary, to enact law that says the fire department can place a lien on the property for unpaid costs. It would have to have the same weight of law behind it as if it were a tax lien. In other words, it would supersede a mortgage lien and make it easier to enforce/foreclose if necessary.


Of course, DU would turn in to a 5 day flame war when the old timer got put out on the street for not paying his bills.

[LynneSin]

13. Fire Department put people and animals in harms way and should be ashamed!

I understand about the fee. But they should have treated it like an emergency room visit - bill them for the cost of the fire department making the call. That is just SHAMEFUL they did.

But never EVER should they just let something just burn.

[KittyWampus]

15. I'd say the delinquent home owner is the one who put others in harms way.

[stopbush]

25. Suppose the fire happened at night when the "delinquent homeowner"

and his family were sound asleep. Would the fire department be within their rights to drive out to the home and watch as people burned to death because they hadn't paid a $75 fee? That's the ideologically pure argument that needs to be made in this situation. If you won't or can't make that argument when loss of life is involved, then you must also make an exception when the homeowner is offering to pay the fire department any amount of $ they ask to put the fire out in the moment.

[LynneSin]

26. Then you send them the bill for the cost of the call

Thank goodness emergency rooms don't act like that!

[stopbush]

33. A point made by the homeowner whose home burned down

was that he was pretty sure that the fire trucks and other equipment use by the department were paid for with county tax revenues which he paid as a homeowner. It doesn't seem right to me that he was forced to pay for the equipment but that the equipment wasn't put to use to douse the fire at his home. Is that justice?

And why charge only $75 as a fee? Why not make it $5000 a year? That would narrow the pool of subscribers to the people wealthy enough to afford such a service. That means you could hire fewer fire fighters while saving on equipment and resources because you wouldn't need to put out nearly as many fires. I mean, one guy paying $5000 is like 65 guys paying $75. Seems more cost-effective to restrict your concern to one home, rather than 66 homes.

And while you're at it, why not institute a program of surcharges for those who do subscribe, things like charging more for fires that occur on weekends, or during the winter when the trucks have to get through snow, or during the graveyard shift when more fire fighters need to be called in on overtime?

Certain things should not be seen as for-profit. Police and fire fighters are two of those things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. On a technical issue

I think he is wrong, since his county taxes are paid in TN, and the FD is in KY. The County Board voted down to actually add oh three bucks to the electric bill to do that, on libertarian grounds... and a few other things. They rather have a flat tax.

Trust me, that is a county I would NOT move to.

[Lyric]

17. And who pays when the embers from a non-payer's house are blown into a local forest?

And when the forest fire spreads and even MORE people lose their homes? And when the same firefighters who refused to fight the initial fire, respond to the forest fire and some of them are killed (along with trees, forest animals, and maybe even innocent campers and hikers), and ALL of this because they refused to put out the initial fire? Fires have a dangerous habit of spreading. It's not just the non-payer and his close neighbors who are at risk--EVERYONE is at risk.

Fires are an urgent public safety crisis. More than just the non-payer's house and property is at stake. Put out the damned fire and take the non-payer to court later to collect damages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. That is why they have to be mandated, we used to call them taxes

and in this case if the county is incapable, for political reasons, to run a FD, or raise taxes to fund the city services it has a mutual aid agreement with... then that city should cancel the mutual aid agreement... period.

Yep, they want to live in that John Galt heaven... well at this point LET THEM!

I am willing to bet that after a few fires and perhaps, no it does not give me any pleasure, deaths... they will be clamoring for that SOCIALIST fire department and pay their damn fucking taxes. It might take a few more than just a few, but you get the point.

We live in a country with two competing political and economic philosophies... and one has not let the other FULLY get a taste of the end result of their economic and philosophical believes, because well, we believe humans are essentially good. Well, I have been told that these country bumpkins believe they are leeching them city lib'ruls... fine, let them live their randian paradise FULLY. I mean they can read Atlas Shurched all they want, until the fire truck, and the ambulance or for that matter the cops, don't show and the roads fall apart.

That's what they believe in. Let them get the full consequences.

And as a former rescue worker it gives me no pleasure, but I don't understand that world view, don't pretend I do... and it is truly a foreign country. It does put Katrina in a whole new way though. Bush eating cake on day three signifies this world view perfectly.

[MH1]

24. They should be required to pay all costs of putting out their fire.

Taken to court if necessary. Lien on the property.

Enforce it HARD but do not just watch property (and lives) be destroyed if the capacity is available to prevent it.

[sandnsea]

30. Such a no-brainer isn't it

It pains me to know that I live in a country where such obvious solutions are still unheard of in some areas.

[Xipe Totec]

35. Pay me now, or pay me later

You can charge a retainer, or you can charge for the full price of services rendered.

But you don't just refuse to serve.

[fasttense]

29. So the goal is to get people to pay fees?

Or is the goal to fund a functional fire department?

There are so many ways to ensure fire coverage for everyone without playing silly little fee or no fee games. How about a $150 fine if the fire department has to come out and put out a fire of someone who didn't pay their $75 or some such other little trick?

If you look at this protection fee, it is really unfair. A guy with 1,000 sq foot trailer has to pay the same amount as a guy with a 20 room mansion. It will take a whole lot more effort to put out a mansion then a trailer. And what about the guy with 1,000 acres and a guy who owns only 1 acre? Do they both pay the same amount? The 1,000 acres take a whole lot more effort and supplies to put out. The poor are subsidizing the uber wealthy's fire protection.

And I certainly don't want to live in a county that lets people's house burn down. Will I have to put in a fire barrier to protect me in case my neighbor forgets to pay the protection fee? What if a high wind catches the whole neighborhood on fire? Do they only put out the fires on those houses that paid? If they don't put out the fires on the houses that didn't pay, then those that paid are in danger of catching fire again and again.

This fee for protection is one of the dumbest ideas for funding a fire department I have ever heard of. They must be RepubliCONS cause it's just so stupid.

[canetoad]

32. The question that should be asked, raccoon

Is whether a community agrees or not that an effort should be made to extinguish all fires. That is your first principle; who pays for the service comes much later in the scenario and should be filed under administrata.

This situation should not have been allowed to exist. In setting up a fee-based system did the bureaucrats NEVER envision a time when services may be refused to a non-payer? Those are the people to be condemned here.

[catbyte]

37. The humane thing to do would have been to

put out the fire, bill the homeowner for the cost. If he didn't pay, take him to court and get a judgment. Happens all the time. The punitive attitude of people baffles me.

[Fumesucker]

41. Apparently TN law does not allow a FD to get a judgement..

If it did then this guy's previous non payment for putting out a fire on his property would have gone to court and he would have a judgement against him..

[valerief]

42. Absolutely, because fires NEVER spread.

:sarcasm:

Gawd ahmighty!