Article 1 Section 8 US Constitution

[Klukie]

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



Fire Departments: General Welfare of the US


What say you?

[uncommon]

1. I say YES YES YES - this is how it should be.

[Stuart G]

2. I agree, YES..

[Xithras]

3. Federalize the fire services?

Interesting idea.

[Ozymanithrax]

10. It isn't a call to federalize fire service....

It just shows that the government is responsible for the general welfare of it's citizens. And fire services in most states are supported by taxes at a city, county, and state level.

Here in San Diego, it is an issue because of a budget deficit and they are planning on idling a few engines on a rotating basis to save money, which will increase response time by 3 or 4 minutes. Out in the back country, which is prone to fire by the nature of it's ecosystem, they will not participate in that idling because when a fire gets started there it often burns right to the ocean.

Had a tax funded fire department showed up and put that fire out when it was burning in corn fields, no structures or animals would have been lost. There is this concept called "common good" that Republicans seem to have shat out their asses with their ethics and morals.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Not a federalized fire service, but a federal subsidy for local fire services.

The cost of a single month of the Iraq war would pay for a truck and crew in every community in the country for a year (I say, pulling that out of thin air). Like schools, fire departments should not be wholly dependent upon the vagaries of a local economy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. The national economy sucks so I'm not sure on the vagaries argument

But if the feds give the money they control the FD.

"He who pays the piper calls the tune," and all that.

If you love what the GOP has done with your investment earnings and health care just imagine what they can do with your local fire department.

If you're lucky they'll foreclose on you long before they watch your house burn down.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. "if the feds give the money they control the FD"

How so? If the money is allocated equitably based on census-derived population figures - say, for example, 500k for every 10,000 citizens served (could be more, or less, but you get the idea) then it is all NUMBERS. Politics has nothing to do with it, wealth of the district has nothing to do with it. It's like establishing a 'minimum wage' for the nation's fire departments - EVERYBODY gets it, and chooses how they use it.

As it is now, if you live is a piss-poor area you get piss-poor service, period. That's why there are such travesties as tax-refusal and subscription fees in some areas, while well-funded suburban areas have stations every 12 blocks.

Protection of the community should NOT be dependent upon 'free-market' principles.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. It's a stupid local law

But how many communities AREN'T this stupid and we would be handing them over to the same people who bailed out Wall St.

I doubt the stupid law will last much longer in fact.

No one argues for a free-market FD or police, not even my die-hard conservative husband.

But I can foresee funding linked to the dictates of dicks in congress, i.e. good or bad but the fed tied highway funding to state raising the drinking age. Whatever the virtues of the law it still gave congress the power to ipose their demands on states lest the state lose funding.

Capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them but I don't want to federally mandate the rope the GOP would hang me with.

[Klukie]

39. How about a mandate from the feds that all states collect taxes to provide services.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Why?

That would be like federally mandating all states outlaw murder or theft.

I'm pretty sure the states don't need much prompting in that regard.

Meanwhile, we've had the fed mandating states enforce the fed's BS drug laws, to hell with what the locals think. If the local community says it ain't a problem for them but the feds manadate X amount of drug enforcement and Y amount of anti-drug education then the locals lose time, money and effort. That would be time, money and efort for other things the community might need like ramped-up fore protections or whatever.

No. I think this is a very stupid libertarian trick by very stupid libertarians and they have probably since come to regret their decision now that they have seen how it plays out in practical terms. I'm sorry it cost this family so much to learn this lesson but it is a lesson learned for the entire nation.

Thank-you for the polite discourse though. I'm glad reasonable people can chat reasonably.

[Klukie]

48. no....the feds wouldn't have to mandate the outlawing of murder/theft

because the states already do!!! That is the whole point. It is unbelievable to me that after all this time and supposed evolution of society that we don't fix what ails us. We all need this service yet many Fire stations struggle financially while trying to make that happen. Not to mention the fact that we put an honorable profession in a dishonorable, and precarious position when we ask them to choose between their responsibilities and money. The same goes for health care and the health care professionals. We cannot sit by and let the idiots determine who is worthy of the general welfare!!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. YAnd by that same token states already provide fire and police services

1 community experimented with a stupid scheme and it blow-up/burned-down in their faces.

I don't see why we need to federalize something every other community in the US seems capable of handling on their own just because a few schmucks got themselves into trouble.

Maybe if the problems with FDs were as systemic as the issues with health care but we're talking one isolated incident in 1 isolated community.

It'd be akin to some freak accident where a man's ice cream cone melts and he's electrocuted from a near-by power outlet then the feds swoop in with federal regulations about how close to an outlet you can and cannot be when eating ice cream. The odds of it happening again are highly improbable because I'm guessing even idiot libertarians want to have their houses put out should they catch fire.

[Ozymanithrax]

4. That "general Welfare" clause is the basis for Social Security,

medicare, and the bulk of social safety net programs.

[Fumesucker]

5. Excellent point, recced.. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Not really-- that's a local service like cops, schools, roads and stuff.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. Which is covered by property, city, county, and state taxes in most...

states where the notion of "common good" exists.

[Hosnon]

7. I think it would be constitutional but I don't think a complete restructuring would ultimately

be better.

Fire departments should be funded by property taxes. Any shortfall could perhaps be made up with federal dollars.

[Klukie]

42. I like that !!

[Phentex]

8. I say this!...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30OyU4O80i4&feature=related

:)

[slackmaster]

9. Are you suggesting that the federal government would provide better fire protection than states...

...and localities?

Is the system really so broken that it needs such a drastic fix?

[Klukie]

14. How about the feds mandate the tax and distribute evenly to the states for use in local depts.

[slackmaster]

15. Why?

What problem would that fix, and how much would the administrative overhead cost?

[Klukie]

18. It would fix the problem of uneven distribution (or potential uneven distribution)

of an essential service in America. It seems as that the way the system runs now that rural areas of the country lack the establishments necessary to provide services. Granted, many may not want to pay for it but safety should be provided for all fairly. A federal mandate will eliminate the option of people having or wanting to choose safety over money!!

[slackmaster]

22. Fire hazards aren't evenly distributed. Every region has unique fire dangers, resources, etc.

Why should fire services be handled by a central bureaucracy?

[Klukie]

38. I agree... fire hazards are not evenly distributed....so

how about a federal mandate to the states to collect a tax thru home owners/business tax (to be assessed on the value of property) and distributed among the counties ( with federal subsidies alloted to areas without enough revenue.

[slackmaster]

51. I don't understand why you are so determined to expand the federal government on this one

:shrug:

[Klukie]

52. To ensure that all states/local municipalities comply

It won't be fair to all if states can opt out. I don't see it as an expansion....more like an unfulfilled duty.

[plantwomyn]

11. Yes BUT...

where does it say that the federal government, a state, county or municipality cannot deny a service, to a citizen who does not pay for that service, as long as they have imposed a tax upon all of their citizens in order to enjoy that service? I'd like to see counties and municipalities deny educational services to the children of citizens that do not pay their property taxes.

[onenote]

20. what services would you propose be denied to citizens that don't pay their property taxes

and don't have any children?

[Klukie]

53. off with their heads!!!

[plantwomyn]

54. Guess you didn't get the connection to

:sarcasm:

[BeFree]

12. Sure

And I bet that fire department has taken many federal dollars over the years?

Then there is the personal responsibility part... IOW, if you stand to suffer great losses by fire, you should make sure you won't be destroyed if a fire comes your way.

Think of it like this: if you are a homeless person, a fire means little.
But if Wall Street is your home, a fire would wipe you out except that you had INSURANCE.

[MadHound]

16. Fire departments are local, not federal services

And while it is ideal that local taxes pay for a fire department, the fact of the matter is that there are many, many counties who simply don't have the tax base to fund a fire department on top of road repair, schools, sheriff department, etc. So thus you have a subscription based fire department. It isn't ideal, it isn't perfect, but it does provide protection.

However any fire department, subscription or not, doesn't worry about the money when the flames are roaring. You put out the fire and deal with the monetary issues later. What these yahoos did in TN was simply unacceptable, and that fire department needs to be cleaned out from top to bottom.

[Klukie]

19. Keep them local but fund them federally

[MadHound]

21. That would be nice, but impractical

Thus we are stuck with the system we have.:shrug:

[Klukie]

26. Maybe so..but until we demand more nothing will change!!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. Well, this community demanded change and boy did they get it

Every democracy gets the government it deserves.

My guess is the zeal for hard-core libertarianism just took a serious shot in the chops from this episode.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. You won't enjoy it so much...

...when Diebold and a bad tequila bender elects Palin as president and suddenly "a solid Christian education" becomes part of the general welfare.

Who's gonna save you? The Supreme Court?

[Klukie]

25. Nope....I ain't worried about that.... The 1rst amendment will save me!

And I was talking about a TAX for the general welfare. Fire safety is general welfare to me.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. I'll see your 1st Amendment and raise you...

...a Citizen's United.

[Klukie]

31. Sorry..I ain't folding here....

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

28. The strict constructionists would argue that since there is no explicit

statement about the role of firefighters, teachers, cops, etc.

[suston96]

29. The reason we create government is to secure (protect) our rights...

Does anybody remember Thomas Paine? He said that.

Article 1, Section 8 is an expansion of the Constitution's Preamble which states:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Get it? Establish justice - everyone treated equally under the law? (See the Fourteenth Amendment). Insure domestic tranquility - like putting out fires in the community ? Promote the general welfare? Does putting out fires do anything for the general welfare?

Are people trying to say that we will have only as much government protection as we can afford? Ya really wanna get into that?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. Even still that isn't a call to federalize local services

No one argues against Fire Depts but I will argue against giving lobbyists and the national GOP a crack at holding the purse strings.

Why should the banksters foreclose your home when they can just watch it burn and collect a fat insurance check?

[suston96]

32. The federal government doesn't have to provide services.....

That was not the point of my post. I say that town, county, state, federal are all responsible for the health and welfare and safety of the citizens.

A community that collects local taxes cannot abdicate its responsibilities for the health and welfare and safety of its residents by outsourcing the fire department.

There is no reason or cause for the $75.00 to be voluntary. It should be added to the property tax. Failure to pay that tax results in a lien on property and other traditional recourse by the community.

The taxpayers in a community cannot choose what they will pay and what they won't. So many of us have grown children and grandchildren who are long since out of school but we all pay school taxes - big time - in our communities.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. The only reason it cost $75, IIRC, is because

the people in the county voted for it to be that way.

And I think they may be amending their foolishness.

I'm not sure their local stupidity rises to the level of requiring a federal intervention.

Think of all the things we as progressives could lose if we stripped local communities of their right to make their own laws.

[Klukie]

36. Don't be scared.....we don't have time for fear!!

We don't want to strip them of their right to make all laws...just this one!!!

[suston96]

40. They voted for it? That's interesting - ready for this....?

Public safety - like all of our other rights - is not subject to majority rule.

Incredible that a ballot can be used to vote on the rights of the people to protect themselves.

Federal intervention? No, not at all - unless the state does nothing about it.

I predict that this case may very well go to the US Supreme Court. At any rate, the persons whose house burned down while firefighters watched should start legal proceedings.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. It wasn't a vote about whether the service would exist

only how it would be paid for.

What I CANNOT wrap my head around is why the FD refused to assist after they were on scene and the homeowner offered to pay then and there or why they couldn't just bill him after the fact.

Granted, the homeowner was a dunder head and had refused to pay for the year, he elected to gamble his fortunes and he lost his bet with Fate but even idiot libertarians deserve better. Hopefully, his libertarian streak has mellowed.

[suston96]

41. They voted for it? That's interesting - ready for this....?

Public safety - like all of our other rights - is not subject to majority rule.

Incredible that a ballot can be used to vote on the rights of the people to protect themselves.

Federal intervention? No, not at all - unless the state does nothing about it.

I predict that this case may very well go to the US Supreme Court. At any rate, the persons whose house burned down while firefighters watched should start legal proceedings.

[Klukie]

35. I agree...

But wouldn't it require a federal mandate in order to make states comply with enforcing the taxes?

[defendandprotect]

43. Obviously, fire departments are simply another PRIVATIZED service now ... ???!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. No, just in this community

I doubt any other communities will race to follow suit and those that did will race back to the usual system and even Obion county will rethink its idiocy.

[defendandprotect]

50. Trust they'll be reversing this insanity .... let's see what happens ....

Maybe the community should pay for the restoration of the house?