A Different Take on The Fire Protection Issue...

[MineralMan]

My father was the chief of a small town volunteer fire department for over 20 years. The firefighters got a token payment for each fire they turned out for from the city. My father got a small stipend annually for being the chief. Homes in the area outside of the city limits were supposedly protected by the county fire department, but there were few full-time firefighters on duty in the station, and they were slow to respond in many cases.

Finally, the city's volunteer department decided that they'd turn out to fires outside of the city limits, as long as the mailing address city was the same as the city. They didn't get any pay at all for those turnouts, but they did it anyway. My father said, "We can't just let people's homes burn or let someone get hurt or killed in a fire. If their mailing address says {name of town}, we're going to turn out. They're our neighbors."

That's the way decent people operate. Anything different from that is ugly as hell. Only libertarians and teabaggers would let a neighbor's home burn down over a few dollars. I'm disgusted by some of the reactions to this incident.

If you disagree with my father's statement, well...

[MineralMan]

1. An added note:

The decision my father made was disputed by some on the city council in that small rural city. Some felt that the city should look only after those who lived in the city. It was a big issue. My father simply stood his ground and maintained his policy. The objectors on the city council were replaced in the next election.

Some things are just right. Some things should not even require discussion.

[ThomCat]

7. Your dad was a good man.

I'm glad those nay-sayers were replaced.

My uncle was a retired professional firefighter. One of my cousins is still a firefighter. My step-mom was a volunteer firefighter for many years until she moved to Florida.

It's an amazingly grueling job, and I think they all have injuries from it. But they all love it, and I think they would all agree with your father.

I can't imagine any one of them EVER refusing to put out a fire anywhere because someone didn't pay for some kind of sticker on the house. That's just not the kind of person any one of them are.

[MineralMan]

10. At 86, my father is still exactly the same.

He's a model I wish I could fully live up to. He's a wonderful, ethical, and positive person.

[Dappleganger]

8. "Some things are just right."

[phone]

[The Uncola]

64. The acorn doesn't fall far..

.. from the tree. In your case, that is a very good thing. I can't even imagine standing and watching a neighbors house burn and doing nothing. It's inconceivable how anyone can be so heartless. As you said, some things really don't require discussion.

[joeybee12]

2. I'm disgusted too...

We're getting to the point where only the rich will be getting basic services...

[HughMoran]

6. Agreed.

Who cares about some rural illiterate sounding hick, right? :eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

53. the illiterate hick gets usda subsidies in two states, so he's literate enough to do *that* paper-

work.

[HughMoran]

61. Says the socialist

Which way is it gonna be?

You're totally inconsistent and it's nearly impossible to overlook the seeming hypocrisy.

[Hekate]

71. LOL. So, like Linus, you love mankind --it's people you can't stand?

I thought you were all about taking care of the masses (and Dems were not measuring up at all)? Well, this guy is one of them. Good luck with that.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MineralMan]

9. I'm not really writing for your benefit, you know.

I moved away from that town when I turned 18. My parents, now 86 years old, still live there. My father is still the wonderful, ethical man he has always been. As for the crab in the mussel, it was just a story that happened in my life. Some people enjoyed it, it seems.

I believe I post far fewer OPs than many people do, including yourself. You're welcome to ignore them, if that's your preference.

[blueamy66]

4. You're Dad was/is a smart man

You should be proud

[MineralMan]

12. Thank you. I'm very proud of him and the life he has led.

I wish I was as good a person as he is. I keep working at it, but haven't gotten there yet. I'm looking forward to our visit with my parents, who are now 86, at Christmas.

[Warpy]

11. It shows the flaw in libertarian "thinking,"

because the neighbor's property was damaged as the fire spread across the property line. Had everyone been covered by a public service, he wouldn't be looking at burned landscaping today.

Still, the problem is at the county level, where they were too stupid to assess that $75/year as part of everyone's property taxes, ensuring 100% "subscription" and public safety.

Libertarians only make sense on social issues. Once they start talking about government or economics, they turn into babbling fools. This incident shows why.

[MineralMan]

14. Everyone should be assessed for fire protection, as a matter of

course. It's a public service that must be paid for by the public. In that place, such assessments were not made. That does not relieve the firefighters from their moral and ethical responsibility to extinguish the fire. For them not do do so was unconscionable, as far as I'm concerned. How a person can stand by and not help in such a situation, especially if that is one's training and the equipment is at hand, I will never understand.

I do not wish to know such people.

[Warpy]

17. They were in a tough spot

Damned if they did, damned if they didn't. I don't fault them.

I do fault the pinheads at the county level who didn't see this coming.

[Hannah Bell]

54. maybe because, under the previous policy, when they came out to fight the fires & charged

at cost, more than half the people didn't pay anything.

the town has 2500 people; the county has 32k. the county has a higher median income than the city.

how long do you think a small city can continue to offer this free service?

the county libertarians wanted "choice" -- they got it.

painting the city as the libertarian villain is 180 degrees removed from the facts. this problem has a long history, with various solutions attempted, none of which worked.

the root problem is that a majority in the county wanted free service.

[Gaedel]

29. If they had assessed it

They probably could have gotten a bulk rate from the city and it would be about $35 per property.

[Warpy]

35. You're probably right there

which means they were doubly stupid.

[eyepaddle]

41. I'd like to recc this comment about 1000x

It was pretty much what I was thinking last night: what happens when "subscription" fire "protection" spreads to large cities as it certainly will if the current teabag-friendly climate continues? It is just a matter of time until that happens, and then a cluster of buildings/homes don't subscribe, then a small manageable fire could wind up engulfing blocks.

If a practice like that is a bad idea for a city, it's a bad idea for a county

[Hannah Bell]

56. the city didn't have that policy; the county did.

city residents voted to tax themselves to fund their fire service.

county residents voted to leave it to individual "choice" whether to pay for fire service -- and not to fund a county volunteer fire service.

[eyepaddle]

67. I think we are shooting at different targets here,

You're arguing that given the agreements and legal arrangements in place the fire department acted accordingly, I'm arguing that a state of affairs that even ALLOWS people to vote aginst mandatory fire protection services is an almost guaranteed recidpe for disaster.

Setting aside the cold legalism of the dept. being right next to the fire and taking no action--which is a pretty big dick move, I think this "opt in" government sets a very dangerous precedent and is folly.

And there are so many various points flying around here I will not attempt to address them all in a single post.

[jaxx]

13. I admire your dad's ethics.

Those seem to be sadly lacking today when the dollar is the only base as to what is right or wrong.

[MineralMan]

15. Oddly enough, ethical behavior often results in benefits for

the person exhibiting it. My father owned a one-man auto repair shop in that city. How he behaved in all his actions strongly influenced the success of his business. One of the things he told me when I was too young to understand it was, "You can do business in two ways. You can be honest and fair in all your dealings, or you can cheat your customers in some way. If you cheat your customers, you may have short-term success, but soon they will leave you, and tell their friends about the way you do business. If you are honest and fair, you may not make as much money in the short term, but your business will thrive as long as you own it, and will grow as your reputation becomes known."

He was right, as I learned when operating the small businesses I have started.

[LeFleur1]

16. Incomprehensible

It's incomprehensible that the fire department would watch a house burn, one with animials inside.
They are not firefighters. No firefighter I know could sit and watch this happen.
It's a sign of what our country has become. What next? Doctors watching patients die because they don't have the money for treatment?......Wait

[earcandle]

18. Taxes pay for these services. Some suggested this was a town that didn't collect taxes, just private

fees.  Well, when services are privatized, they are not
protected by government laws and regulations that include
equality.  Instead you get feudal systems where private people
decide that if you don't pay into the system, you are not on
the list and you get no water for fires.  Very 19th century. 

But isn't that where Reagan economics intended to take us?  To
the modern primative... bunch of monkeys we've become.

I am sad for that man.  Wondering if that was staged?  In
chair, looks like a wheelchair and a picture of a burnt house
behind him...   Never know these days.  But the event really
had me depressed for a few hours, and that possibility lifted
me out of my funk.  

We are headed to the same place the Russians have now
recovered from, delivered by the same people who boosted the
Afghans in the first place, to destroy Russia.  Now it is our
turn?  Cheney and Halliburton... how to rid ourselves of these
varmits?

Get yourself some Vodka, lie down by the river and drink
yourself to death and drowning.... 

not likely.  We are just too independent and free to lie down.
 

[hayu_lol]

26. Several points need to be made...

The town with the fire department is in the state of Kentucky.

The fire occurred in Tennessee.

The owner, who failed to take advantage of the $75/year offer, started the fire with two uncontrolled burn barrels. The fire did spread beyond his property line to a neighbor's place, the neighbor had paid the service fee, and the fire department put that part of the fire out. What if the neighbor's house had burned down while the firemen were fighting the non-member's fire?

The fire chief(from the town in Kentucky) had sent out letters, made phone calls, and in some cases talked to some of the property owners in the unincorporated area in Tennessee to try to get everyone to sign up.

Why did not the state of Tennessee require the county where the fire occurred to either create a tax base to pay the fees or make it mandatory to pay it individually? Why did not the county commissioners create a tax base on their own?

The fire department is funded by a town and county in Kentucky. Why should their taxes go up to cover people living in Tennessee?

To join this agreement and fire service only costs $1.44 per week($75/year). Wonder if this guy spent the money for fire insurance?

This episode is not the fault of the fire department.

[Hekate]

49. "Why should their taxes go up to cover people living in Tennessee?" It's called "mutual aid" ...

... in the public safety business. Fire departments, police, and sheriffs all utilize it across state, county, and city lines. All. The. Time. Supported by taxes, not some assessment you can opt out of. Apparently just not in Kentucky and Tennessee.
:banghead:

Hekate

[earcandle]

69. like that head banging icon.

[donheld]

66. There is NO excuse. NONE

[Hekate]

48. A "staged" photo in a visual news-medium? What will they think of next?

Of course it was -- that doesn't mean it was fake. It just means that people whose work-products are meant to be seen as well as heard put their interviewees against an appropriate backdrop; in this case, in front of the man's burnt-down house. If a tornado had swept through they would have done the same.

Hekate

[Hannah Bell]

57. some people didn't read the story. the city collects taxes to fund its fire service.

the county doesn't, and doesn't have a fire service.

it leaves it up to individuals to decide whether or not they subscribe to the city's fire service.

the county is larger, & richer, than the city (2500 people in the city, 32K in the county).

[Romulox]

19. OK, well I want to be on that plan too, then--where I just live outside of where I have to pay

but where I get the exact same benefit for free. (This makes me a SUPER liberal, btw, and is by no means IDENTICAL to the libertarian mindset.)

[MineralMan]

20. Actually, the people outside the city limits had fire protection.

The county assessed them for it. However, the county fire station there had only two firefighters in it. Often, they did not have the ability to properly fight the fires. They were often slow to arrive, since the station was not centrally located in that part of the country. That is why my father decided to turn out his department to all fires within the influence of the city. Usually, by the time the county truck and it's two firefighters arrived, the fire was already out and my father's department was getting ready to leave.

Nobody got anything for free. Everyone was assessed, but the more capable and responsive fire department turned out, even when the fire was in the outskirts of the city. It was one community. The fire department served the community. Artificial borders were not observed. It didn't cost the city much to do this, and the firefighters weren't paid for those fires outside of the city limits. They did it because their neighbors, family, and friends lived in those houses, even if they were outside of the city limits. They did it because they were firefighters.

I say, good for them.

[Romulox]

28. LOL. You "collectivism" extends to receiving benefits only.

When it came time to PAY for the service, I betcha that everyone went back to observing "(a)rtificial boundaries" again.

Basically, what you've described is the very soul of the libertarian/free rider mindset. It's easy to hang out when somebody else is buying. But when is it YOUR turn to buy a round for ME?

[MineralMan]

36. Actually, everyone did pay, as I pointed out. It's just that they were

poorly protected by the county fire department, so the city department stepped in to help their neighbors. You find fault with that? Amazing.

[Romulox]

38. They did not pay enough to provide sufficient protection.

"It's just that they were poorly protected by the county fire department, so the city department stepped in to help their neighbors."

The switch to passive voice betrays the weakness of the argument. What you mean is that the outliers refused to pay enough to support an effective fire department.

"You find fault with that? Amazing."

Funny how cause follows effect, isn't it? You don't put enough resources toward fighting fires, and therefore your fire department is ineffective. Do I find fault with that plan? No. Fires find fault with that plan. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

58. amazingly, i agree with you.

[MineralMan]

63. Not so amazingly, I disagree with you.

[Egnever]

24. This

+100

Lets all just take advantage of city and county boarders to pay as little as we can while still collecting as much as we can its the Liberal way!

[VioletLake]

21. I don't always agree with you, but I like your posts. nt

[MineralMan]

23. That's very kind of you to say. Thanks.

[bvar22]

22. I rarely agree with you,

but I do on this issue.
My wife & I are both active Volunteer FireFighters for our rural district.
The thought of letting someone's house burn is abhorrent to us, and to every other FireFighter in our department.
We kill fires.
We do NOT let them burn.


We feel the same way about Health Care.
Everybody deserves Health Care.
Its a basic Human Right, not a For Profit Commodity.

[MineralMan]

25. I've never met a volunteer firefighter who felt any differently.

Never. Thanks for posting and for being a firefighter.

[Raster]

37. Good response back to the M-Man. You have become one of my favorite posters on DU.

Progressive, intelligent and a "take no prisoners" attitude. I agree with you. I rarely agree with Mineral Man, however, his OP is right on the money. Decent people do the right thing--whether it's putting our fires or helping a neighbor. Thank you.

[VMI Dem]

27. Rec.

[uncle ray]

30. but they don't put out the fires in neighboring cities jurisdictions.

just like the fire dept in this weeks news. your father drew the line at the name of the city in the mailing address, this department drew the line at who pays. very little difference, really. in fact, it could be argued that excluding service because of geographic location is even more heartless than based on whether you paid the tax.

[DevonRex]

32. Except that in this case there was a county fire department that was struggling

with doing the job. Mineral Man's father's decision helped relieve some of the responsibility from that county department. Hopefully with this help, they were better able to protect the rest of the homes in their jurisdiction.

[gristy]

31. I contribute every year to my town's volunteer fire department

I would be aghast if they didn't put out a fire because someone didn't contribute.

[craigmatic]

33. To let somebody's house worth thousands of dollars burn for a lack of a $75 fee isn't just

stupid and immoral but also just plain old bad math.

[DevonRex]

34. Your father was a wonderful man. He had the values that the Tennessee fire dept chief

lacks. Of course, that TN department was run on conservative "values." We liberals actually help people in need.

[Raster]

39. Thank you for posting. I grew up in small town in southeast Arizona, one only served

by a volunteer fire department. Many, many is time time the fire alarm would go off and a group of men would drop whatever they were doing to race to the firehouse, grab their tools and trucks and rush to the emergency location. They saved lives, they saved property and they were good men. And they never worried if anyone paid their subscription fee or worried where the property was located. They did what they volunteered to do. They were never paid a dime for their tremendous efforts. They came to my rescue several times over the years. My hat is off to them--and to your father. Thank you.

[MineralMan]

43. Yeah, that's how the department in that city worked, too.

As it turned out, the department had one of the fastest response times in California. Most of the firefighters worked within a few blocks of the firehouse, and drilled frequently to improve their response. A typical residential fire saw at least a dozen firefighters and two fire trucks respond to it, 24/7. At night, firefighters who lived near the firehouse went there and drove the trucks. The other volunteers responded directly to the fire's location, in full turn-out gear. I can't tell you how many times my father had to leave the house in the middle of the night to respond to a fire. It was a standing joke that he never got to eat a Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner. Since both my brother and brother-in-law were also on the department, many a holiday meal went without those three.

Based on the response time and the size of the response, the city had a top fire protection rating, which saved everyone on their homeowner's insurance.

It was an excellent system. Such a thing can't work in larger cities, of course, but it sure worked in that town of 6000.

[NYC Liberal]

40. Let's just say that if this had happened to a DUer, how many here would

(rightfully) support them? I bet almost everyone.

It's easy to say "Serves them right!" or "Too bad" or the like when it's a stranger hundreds or thousands of miles from you. I bet all the people who are against compassion and human decency in this situation would quickly change their tune if it was their house or the house of someone they cared about.

[MineralMan]

47. Indeed. We can be pretty selective, can't we, when talking about

principles? A shame.

[Abq_Sarah]

50. The homeowner was irresponsible

On many fronts, from refusing to pay for service to allowing trash to be burnt next to his home.

That said, If the town is going to offer rural service to county residents, it's in their interest to put out any fire in their service area. An out of control fire doesn't respect property boundaries.

Every single resident of that county who, over two decades, voted for commissioners who refused to levy a tax to pay for fire service are irresponsible as well. Fire service is one of the most basic services that should be provided. Even if they didn't put up their own volunteer fire stations, they could have paid the surrounding towns for service.

[Hannah Bell]

59. particularly since the towns are very small (south fulton = 2500 people) without much of a tax base.

and the county has a higher median income than south fulton.

[sandnsea]

42. That's how it's been in rural areas I lived in

Some people can't afford to pay the money, some people forget, some people are freeloaders. But in a time of need you don't judge people - you just help. Your dad had it exactly right.

[MineralMan]

44. Collectivism at work. From those who can to those who need.

It's such a simple equation.

[Abq_Sarah]

51. First put out the fire

And then take them to task.

[Hannah Bell]

60. that was the previous policy. more than half the beneficiaries never paid a dime.

and the city had no jurisdiction to collect from the county residents.

there's a long history that brought about this result.

[MineralMan]

62. Think of the children, Hannah. The children.

For pete's sake! Read my OP again. I will not say to you what my father would say. He could be quite abrupt with people who did not behave in a civilized way.

[Abq_Sarah]

65. If South Fulton

had changed their policy and not taken rural subscribers, the county would have had to work out other methods long ago.

[awoke_in_2003]

45. if any one disagrees with your father's statement...

they are assholes, plain and simple.

[CBR]

46. K&R nt

[Hannah Bell]

52. This city has 2500 people. The county has 32K, & no fire service. 75% of the city's calls

were from outside the city. Under the previous policy, the city charged costs when it came to fight a fire. More than half of the county residents never paid a cent.

The county has a higher median income & a larger population than the city.

It's not about "decency". it's about a small town avoiding bankruptcy.

[madokie]

55. I agree

[_ed_]

68. Two kinds of people on DU

People that agree with your Dad, and people that agree with this guy: http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/05/beck-producer-mock-firefighters/

[msanthrope]

70. This is an excellent OP.

I am of the opinon that the FD should have assisted with the fire, and then the city should have sued the snot out of the farmer for the costs.

Especially since it seems like the repeat firebug is the guy's grandson.