The real clash of cultures is between Progressives and Libertarians

[divideandconquer]

As long as Libertarianism is considered a reasonable political philosophy, reality based politics faces endless moral hazards like this Tennessee house burning down.

How many of these same people complaining about this fire department are the same people complaining about illegal Mexicans getting help in hospitals or their kids going to schools?

[leftstreet]

1. Does anyone know if voters in that county chose to go pay-per-burn?

Was there ever a time when tax assessments included contractual coverage with the city FD?

Did politicians manipulate sentiment with the neoconlib call for "Lower Taxes!"

:shrug:

[merqz]

3. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but it may be...

The city FD is actually IN ANOTHER STATE than the county. The city of Fulton is in Kentucky. That may be why the county (in Tenn) cannot collect mandatorily. Or not...

[JustAmused]

22. Not quite correct.

The city of Fulton is inKentucky. However the city of South Fulton is in TN, separated by, I believe, State Line Rd.

[seabeyond]

19. the county voted to not collect the fees and leave it optional. 19-1

i believe

[provis99]

2. so where do the teabaggers and Sarah Palin fit in?

[LAGC]

4. Agreed, they aren't exactly model libertarians.

Even the official right-wing Libertarian Party is in favor of open borders/immigration. Angry teabaggers don't qualify.

[Odin2005]

6. They are social dominators, not libertarians at all.

they are "libertarians" only to the extent they they believe they have a right to dominate others, why do you think they are so enamored by Ayn Rand?

[Odin2005]

5. Correction: RIGHT-Libertarians

A lot of of us Progressives consider ourselves LEFT-Libertarians, as does Chomsky.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. +1000!

[Luminous Animal]

25. Chomsky on being a libertarian socialist... for most people, it does not what they think it means...

http://videosift.com/video/Chomsky-Libertarianism-vs-American-Libertarianism

[applegrove]

7. In the 19th century people used to have a sign on their homes saying which

fire fighters they were with. I think people collect those old cast iron signs. Amazing that we have come full circle.

[TorchTheWitch]

9. what's amazing is

that so many DUers approve. I could puke.

[Fumesucker]

11. There's a bunch of DUers who approve of the individual health insurance mandate..

A mandate that has no guarantee at all getting actual health care..

What is the essential difference between an individual health insurance mandate and a fire department subscription?

I mean other than the fact that health insurance costs waaaaaaay more than $75 a year?

[TBF]

14. It's the DLC element on this site - they are more conservative.

They believe in the free market, and after 30 years of very conservative rule in this country I'm not surprised they have managed to take over the party. But I hope progressives will continue to speak up, whether it's through this party or via their protests.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. In ancient Rome Crassus built his fortune on 'fire insurance'

Marcus Licinius Crassus 115 BCE – 53 BCE.

"Most notorious was his acquisition of burning houses: when Crassus received word that a house was on fire, he would arrive and purchase the doomed property along with surrounding buildings for a modest sum, and then employ his army of 500 clients to put the fire out before much damage had been done."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Licinius_Crassus

A right-libertarian hero. The wealthiest man of the era. Also one of the major thugs who helped end the republic.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

10. I think Thom Hartmann will have to change his definition of Libertarianism.

Now he will have to say "Libertarians are Republicans who like to smoke dope, get laid, and watch their neighbors houses burn down." :(

[Warren Stupidity]

12. that is an ideological not cultural division

the so called "culture war" is about homophobia, xenophobia, racism, misogyny, the war on some drugs, and the effort to transform this nation from a secular republic into a theocracy.

For the most part, although Ron Paul is an example of when this is not true, right-libertarians are on the same side of the culture war as the progressive left.

For the most part the leadership of both major political parties embraces some or all of the agenda of the rightwing culture warriors.

[LiberalAndProud]

13. Sometimes I think it's a codependent relationship.

I am almost certain that Libertarians, left to their own devices, would soon destroy themselves. Progressives would save them from themselves.

I presume that Libertarians believe the reverse is true.

[depakid]

15. "I presume that Libertarians believe the reverse is true."

FWIW: In my experience, libertarians (on both sides of the spectrum) would prefer the "choice" to destroy both themselves and others rather than assent to often very basic elements of the social contract.

Left to their druthers, prompted in short-sighted selfishness by corporate interests would be feudalists, life in society ends up both as Hobbes describes: "nasty, brutish & short" and yet also as Rousseau notes: "free, but everywhere in chains."

[Iterate]

18. Oh well done.

Finding a one bit of rare clarity per day has been enough to keep me mousing here.

I've been haunted over the past few days by the line "we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." I hope it's not too quaint.

And I hope we don't mistake temporary allies on a few issues at the limits of personal liberty for our new best friends, because when they hear the words "community" or "common decency" they break out in hives and run for their exurban enclaves.

[Tsiyu]

16. Progressive: The Netherlands; Libertarian: Somalia n/t

[immoderate]

20. Which definition of libertarian?

My dictionary (M-W Collegiate) says:

1 : an advocate of the doctrine of free will
2 a : a person who upholds the principles of absolute and unrestricted liberty especially of thought and action b capitalized : a member of a political party advocating libertarian principles

Politically, people who call themselves Libertarian, adhere to small government, deregulation, and free market principles. Whereas, social libertarians, or libertarian socialists (note the lower case l) don't want the government legislating individual morality.

I think most people outside of a metaphysics course would buy in to the idea of free will. People think they have it.

Most of the Libertarians I bump into are followers of Ayn Rand. They are "atheists" but read Atlas Shrugged as if it is scripture. These are narcissists who find it easy to summon up enough sociopathy to totally disregard the plight of the poor, the sick, and the victims of their own game of capitalism.

--imm

[Mimosa]

21. Disagree

There are more rightwingers than genuine Libertarians.

[SargeUNN]

23. It is time DU define what it stands for and who it is

The decison on this issue certainly has been one that goes against the very principles we hold not only as Liberals or Progressives, but as Democrats. I know about the survey and have filled it out so I have tried to not get into mentioning the cancer this growing here at DU not only in this topic but others. I don't believe for one second it reflects the overwhelming majority here, nor do I believe such inhumane views are appreciated or even worth hearing by most of us. I understand being fair and decision but that begs to question if a child molester came in and promoted child molestation here that wouldn't walk (at least I hope not) and yet the idea someone's house being allowed to burn and all the defense of it, is criminal and anti-american because it over punishes and is cruel punishment. I think DU needs to define what it stands for because frankly I am no longer sure what it stands for and why.

[Gaedel]

24. Hey insurance company

Sell me some flood insurance, the river is a-rising.