When I listen to Geoffrey Canada I don't hear someone who wants to bleed public schools for profits.

[dkf]

I hear someone who is personally devastated by the idea that a good education means the difference between poverty and a good life. He says it is not about charter schools but about the effort to innovate in the schools and the roadblocks that are put up mostly by the teacher's union. I believe him.

Governor Christie recounted the story of a mother who came up to him and told him the charter school lottery is the difference between her son going to college or going to jail. I have to admit that hit me hard.

This is the civil rights fight of our generation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Unrec for not paying attention

and listening to unproven talking points.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

15. For 'not paying attention'? Or for not being intimidated by the

organized "Teachers all are PERFECT" police on this board?

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Teachers are far from perfect

They also aren't to blame, as Mr Canada is claiming.

[msanthrope]

41. But teacher's unions definitely are part of the problem. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Does typing it on the internet make it true?

If so, you are correct. Of course you have to ignore the unions' role in reform, teacher training and policy. But hey; if it works for ya, then go for it.

[msanthrope]

47. "Unions' role in reform, teacher training and policy." Why aren't there threads on these issues?

Seriously--we keep hearing about how unions are taking the lead in all these things, and yet, there are no posts about it...

Now---New York City's union is negotiating the new contract---where are all your posts about how the union is proposing new evaluations, change, how to get rid of bad teachers, etc...

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Oh bullshit

You are so out of the loop on this. Not even keeping up with DU's posts on this topic. Sad.

[msanthrope]

54. Didn't find any threads, then? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I'm going to let you do that

You appear to need a task.

[Catshrink]

64. Don't you just love how she wants you to do her research for her?

I get the same crap from my students.

[msanthrope]

77. Actually, I looked--I just couldn't find anything but complaints about the reforms of others.

I tried "union-based innovation" Nothing but complaining, as opposed to a post about reform instigated by a union.


So I tried "union-based education reform." this was the number one thread---more complaints...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9174705


So if you know of a better search term, or cache of threads I'm missing, why don't you educate us all?

I would like to be wrong.

[Catshrink]

79. As I tell my students, look harder

maybe your research terms aren't quite right. But I NEVER do my students' research for them. Since it's your issue, I can't do your work for you.

[msanthrope]

93. Okay--but posters here are not your students. We are other adults who vote and pay taxes.

Now, one thing I have noted before and I will note again---

Invariably, (with some stand-out exceptions) the teachers who post on these education theads simply do not 'entertain' questions from anyone that they view as having an opposing position.

Questions are not answered, and debate does not happen.

Ironically, this only serves to further the purposes of the 'deformers.'

Why?

Because the DU audience is made up of lots of people who work, pay taxes, and send their kids to school. Oh, yeah...and they vote, too, and send their kids to charters.

When the teachers on this board behave in the manner they do, the invariably lose support outside their own echo chamber....

You seem to forget that you are making an argument to other ADULTS, who, by and large, expect to be treated as such, and have their questions answered.

Keep doing it...you only make the "deformers" job easier.

[Catshrink]

98. And I've noticed that the anti-education crowd is lazy.

They won't do their research and expect others to do their work for them. This is hard work - it's easier just to sit back and blame teachers unions for everything wrong in education.

And because you're a taxpayer I have to bow down to your demands that I looks something up on an internet message board for you? That's not what I'm paid to do, I'm paid to teach students and be a collaborative member of our school's staff. Would you ask a firefighter to work at the DMV?

[msanthrope]

112. Perhaps--but you are an educator, right? If I'm missing those threads, then

why don't you simply post them for my edification?

If there are magic search terms I should have used, then post them---I would take less time than your previous post.

I may be lazy--I am a lot of things, but if I am missing these threads, I truly would like to read them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

110. And I've noticed that we've had discussions on these topics going back years

And until Arne was crowned, almost no one other than a few teachers here even cared. Then when the party loyalists realized we were criticizing a Democrat, all hell broke loose.

Now if these same loyalists had joined us 6 or 7 years ago when we were criticizing Bush's education policies, I might not be such a pessimist.

[Radical Activist]

126. "Just shut up and sit down because you don't know enough!"

That's the usual response on these threads when something is challenged. Your post is exactly right. Everyone has a stake in public education.
I used to oppose charters. I'm giving them a second thought after the series of paranoid persecution narratives I've read on DU.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msanthrope]

80. It's called 'inter-disciplinary research' :-)

[DailyGrind51]

144. Not every teachers' union in every city or state, but occasionally a few pose impediments to reform.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

119. Don't you think high teacher turnover in poverty-area schools is part of the school effectiveness

problem?

Are teachers just as effective their first or second year after certification as they are after some of them have become experienced master teachers?

Perhaps schools impacted by high teacher turnover should have access to resources for extra mentoring of new teachers by master teachers? Perhaps districts could fund team-teaching with a master teacher for every 1st and 2nd year teacher for part of every day in schools with, say, more than 20 percent 1st and 2nd year teachers.

[The Magistrate]

2. Union-Busters Are What They Are, Sir....

[dkf]

6. It's not about busting the unions...it's about doing what is needed to educate kids.

If teachers want to negotiate wages that is perfectly fair. But when we let the kids suffer and don't try to fix things how can we leave things be?

I just went through 18 days taken out of the school year as we dealt with this downturn. The teachers fought to keep their paid non-instructional days because it had been negotiated by the union in return for drug testing, which they have still refused to implement. They finally agreed to turn paid non-instructional days into instructional days for more money. From this experience I know exactly what the problems with innovation will be.

[The Magistrate]

7. No, Sir: It Is About Breaking The Unions

[dkf]

10. Arne Duncan talked glowingly about one of the unions he is working with.

It isn't about the unions, it's about those that resist efforts to improve things.

[The Magistrate]

11. Duncan, Sir, Was Our Worst Superintendent Since Willis

You need to cultivate a sharper eye....

[defendandprotect]

87. Obama/Duncan are pushing a "Charter schools" agenda which is PRIVATIZATION....

of public education ---

[YvonneCa]

12. Sorry, you don't.

Your words, "But when we let the kids suffer and don't try to fix things how can we leave things be?"

WE shouldn't...but who is 'we'? You? Me? Society? Teachers? I am a teacher and I did not "leave things be" for over 24 years. I worked hard...as most teachers do...to make things better. Not because of a union, but because that's why teachers go into teaching. To do what is needed to educate kids.

You had one little short experience with the structure of public education (which does need fixing, BTW) and now you know exactly what the problems are for innovation? Do you really think that? You know more than education professionals and education researchers?



Really?

[dkf]

13. Actually that was two experiences...one where they negotiated for non instructional days

And a raise by promising drug testing which they then refused to do and then a number of years later, when they insisted all furlough days be instructional days instead of non-instructional days.

Do you support those decisions?

[YvonneCa]

14. I don't have enough information on either of the two situations...

...you cite to know if I'd support them or not. But, just from your post, it sounds as if you don't understand much about the negotiation process between school districts and unions.

The contract that exists between teachers (and their union) and the school district where they are employed is constantly re-negotiated. The contract covers pretty much every issue that there is, from heath care, vacation time, hours worked, etc. It's a long list. :7

I will tell you that most contract days are instructional days for teachers. There are very few (probably 2 or 3) non-instructional days per contract year. These are needed for room prep at the beginning of the school year and often used for meetings and staff developement...when the district insists.

I live in California and furloughs seem to be becoming a fact of life. It would be a natural process to make this part of contract negotiations. In your first situation, unions do negotiate for raises and non-instructional days...in my district, these days were requested for parent/teacher conferences. Not enough info on the drug testing part to hazard a guess. :) The second situation is interesting. Still not enough info, but I'd wonder how many non-instructional days they now have per year and ask 'Can they afford to give any away?' If they have 2...they need them to start the year for planning and preparation.

[dkf]

17. Exactly why innovation will never be able to take place.

Thank you for making my point.

[The Magistrate]

25. On What Ground, Sir, Do You Imagine Innovation Will Constitute Improvement?

What do you consider to be 'wrong' with education at present?

[dkf]

42. When the rest of the world puts more hours into schooling and we are unable to because of every

Union contract that must be renegotiated It will be impossible. We can't keep up with the rest of the world which has more flexibility in how they run their schools.

[The Magistrate]

55. Cute,But No Cigar, Sir

Children here spend more time in class than children in many countries which seem to do a better job of educating their children.

In this context 'flexibility' means nothing but 'fire at whim' and 'slash wages'....

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Nice talking point but not true

Some of the best schools in the world are in Finland, where 100% of the teachers are -GASP!- in a union.

[Catshrink]

84. Norway.

[Hannah Bell]

123. euope's teachers are unionized, so are japan's. your talking points = shit.

Japan Teachers Union (日本教職員組合 , Nihon Kyōshokuin Kumiai ?, JTU), often just called "Nikkyoso" (日教組, Nikkyōso?), is Japan's largest and oldest labor union of teachers and school staffs. The union is known for its critical stance against the conservative Liberal Democratic Party government on such issues as Kimi ga Yo, the Flag of Japan, and the screening of history text books since its near continuous one-party rule since 1945.

Established in 1947, it was the largest teachers union until a split in the late 1980s. The union functioned as a national federation of prefectural teachers unions, although each of these unions had considerable autonomy and its own strengths and political orientation. Historically, there had been considerable antagonism between the union and the Ministry of Education, owing to a variety of factors. Some were political, because the stance of the union had been strongly leftist and it often opposed the more conservative Liberal Democratic Party. Another factor was the trade union perspective that the teachers union had on the profession of teaching. Additional differences on education issues concerned training requirements for new teachers, decentralization in education, school autonomy, curricula, textbook censorship, and, in the late 1980s, the reform movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Teachers_Union

[Nevernose]

34. Do you even know when teachers have time to innovate?

To discuss schoolwide the latest innovations and figure out a way to implement those best practices? It's on those "noninstructional school days." That's what they're for. Contrary to popular belief, they're not days off with pay (though I, personally, take 30 minutes for lunch instead of the usual 20).

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. You didn't get any breaks? Lunch? Planning time?

I don't eat lunch most days. I go outside and sit in the grass under a gorgeous tree and read DU and a couple other websites, and check my email and phone messages on my iPhone. When the weather gets cold, I'll go to the library or some other quiet place in the building. If you think that makes me a bad teacher, I really don't care. It's called a break.

But maybe you can start keeping records. Write down the time of day all of the DU teachers are posting on DU. Then you can move on to the other professionals you hate who post here. Sounds like a great plan for you on your work breaks. :)

[msanthrope]

57. I ate lunch with my kids. On breaks, I peed.*** Planning time, I spent on the kids, too.

I never had time to post during the day---but then again, I wasn't one of those teachers who had to do mounds of work at home and on weekends, and then had to whine about it....

I was highly efficient, and was paid for it.

***and got more coffee.

On edit--note, lunch with the kids was a requirement that our local union went NUTS over. We cared. We ate with our kids, who liked it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. So why did you quit?

If you were so highly efficient, why did you leave?

[Catshrink]

66. Was it voluntary?

[msanthrope]

69. I went to law school.

I like being a student, and have the resources to do so.

[msanthrope]

68. I went to law school.

I always wanted to. So I did.

[Catshrink]

63. I don't have to do mounds of work at home but I'm a good teacher so

I do it. I want to give my students feedback and with all the distractions of the school day and no break except lunch, that's when it has to get done.

You know, when teachers defend themselves against charges of "only working from 9 to 3" or whatever and having summers off by explaining their workloads and effort, it isn't whining. What's with you anyway? You claim to have been a teacher yet you don't seem to understand the intricacies of the job. We did have a teacher that fit the profile you self-describe - we fired her last year for incompetence.

[msanthrope]

74. I rarely took stuff home. If I had to stay late, or work a weekend at term/finals,

then I did it.

Interestingly, in my Master's program, it was stressed that traditional teachers tended to take stuff home, thus ensuring a dark school after 3 pm. This, in turn, encouraged students NOT to stay and do homework, use the library, and the facilities. It also tended not to welcome parents, and did not build a community. Taking mounds home is not what a professional does---a professional works in an office.

My school stayed open, and teachers either worked 7-3, 8-4 or 9-5. None of this 9-3 crap--you were expected to be present

[Catshrink]

83. I'm at school from 6am-4pm

and often later. But I have a long drive and need to let the dogs out to pee so am always out the door by 5. That's putting a lot of stress on the pups. I have 175 students during the day - that's a lot of work.

It's not the teachers darkening the buildings, it's the transportation system. Kids take the bus, the bus gives them 10 minutes after the dismissal bell. You want to blame that on the teachers unions too?

I could grade by scantron but that doesn't tell me how well a student understands something. I need to see the students' thought process. Of course, if they keep increasing our student load I'll have to. I cannot humanly do more than I am right now. That will diminish the student's learning and I'll get blamed for it. You see, that's one thing teachers unions can do - bargain for keeping class sizes managable for the benefit of the kids. No union, no bargaining rights. Who really suffers? The kids.

[msanthrope]

105. Actually, I disagree with you about class-size bargaining.

I found, in practice, that having parents negotiate the school classroom size as part of the school policy is better for the kids.

Why?

Because when it's a union issue, it's one of the first things the union will concede on for other perks---having it as part of the union contract also doesn't take into account the parents' wishes on the matter. I never had a problem with class size--only that I didn't have materials for everyone on the first day, which was remedied.


"Kids take the bus"--true for some schools. But not for all urban, or neighborhood schools. It's not true for kids in the extra-curriculars (and my school had plenty.) It's not true for kids using the after-school program, either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. Lots of after school programs provide transportation

Especially now with the feds funding after school programs.

[Catshrink]

59. Have you ever heard of time zones?

Or lunch break? No one tells me what I can do on my lunch break, that's my decision and my time. I need it to take a breath because it's the only break I get during the day. We do have short passing periods between classes when if I'm lucky I might have time to pee.

For the record - I usully have students in my room at lunch time making up work or getting extra help. But that's my decision to allow them to do that and I do so because many of my students take the bus and can't see me before or after school. How's that for just another teacher who doesn't care about kids?

Your hostility is disgusting.

[defendandprotect]

92. And YOU are monitoring teachers here who post regularly .... ???

Do you want to explain that?

Or name some of those you are monitoring and charging with this behavior?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

117. A bit of a ....

authoritarian mind-set there ... !!!

[Hannah Bell]

132. has anyone noticed how some posters *always* go to the personal?

they can't discuss politics without trying to defame other discussants.

it's really weird, i wonder why that is?

[YvonneCa]

145. If you're counting me in that...

...schedule, I'm retired. I post whenever I want to...now. :7

[dkf]

81. But for two years when we are cutting 17 days out of instructional time?

Really?

[defendandprotect]

94. We need more school funding and a more realistic approach ...

testing isn't teaching --

In fact, kids could probably educate themselves better in a day with access

to a computer than they could educate themselves by taking a TEST!!

[dkf]

97. And kids learn better when furloughs are taken on instructional days vs non instructional days?

I hope you are kidding me. And FYI the rest of the state workers took the furloughs and a 15% pay cut too. But the biggest part of the state budget is the DOE because we are the only one who runs a statewide system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. The biggest part of every state budget is education

Is there something wrong with that?

[defendandprotect]

115. Keep in mind that evidently the Federal Schools budgets often contained CIA money....

as much as 50% of the school budgets!!

This is one of the ways they hid CIA budgets in our legislation bills!!

There's almost no way to guess at how many of the budgets included money for

the CIA or other secret funding!!

[dkf]

150. The point is that the rest of the workers can't take enough pay cuts to leave education untouched

because education is most of the budget.

[defendandprotect]

114. Are you're saying YOU know what kids learn on "furloughs" from school . . . ??

What do kids learn over summers when they travel with their parents?

What do kids learn when they research for themselves on computers?

What do kids learn when they are in arts programs over summers -- ?

What do kids learn when they have time to spend with their parents and ask

questions?

So -- you also want teachers to take a 15% pay cut?

What we need is increases in taxes on the wealthy -- and a return to actually

funding our public schools -- and showing respect for public education and our

teachers and students! And the arts!

[dkf]

151. I know what my nieces did...they had a long weekend.

The parents at some schools tried to rent school rooms and hire the teachers to preserve the regular schedule. But they were told it was against the union contract for teachers to be compensated for any classwork that is part of the normal curriculum. These parents tried to preserve things on their own and many of the teachers wanted to do this for their students but they were told they couldn't.

[defendandprotect]

153. And now you want teachers to work on weekends?

Why shouldn't teachers, like everyone else, have a weekend or holiday rest?

And why wouldn't your nieces desire some change from the "normal curriculum" on their

weekend or holiday?

All of your thinking channels lead predictably to only one conclusion --

teachers are to blame for everything!!

[YvonneCa]

147. You are myopic. All you see is your one issue...

...instead of the big picture of improving public education. It's like the immigration debate when one side just keeps saying, "Fix the damn fence" every time you try to debate and make the case for COMPREHENSIVE immigration reform. Those fence people are either myopic...or they don't really want to do the thinking and the work to fix what really needs to be fixed.

In education...it's not, "Unions block everything!" They are but a small part of the problem. We need to get past debating what unions do and REALLY DEBATE how we get better schools.

[Catshrink]

88. Nope, doesn't know a thing.

Another education dilettante. An expert because he went to school once.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. The magistrate is correct; they are breaking the union

and educating SOME kids. In my America, we educate ALL and we have strong unions for our workers.

[msanthrope]

38. Um, dude--you refused to buy a union CAR, because you didn't think

they were as good as non-union....

So why can't you give the same respect to parents who make the same choice about their kids?

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Um, dude, that's bringing up another thread and injecting it into this one to slam my post

And I believe it's a violation of DU rules.

Now if what I am posting is that offensive to you, then put me on ignore. I refuse to take any of your constant anti teacher comments seriously anyway, so you are really wasting your time.

[msanthrope]

52. If you think I have violated a rule, then you know what to do.

But I note you aren't claiming it isn't true.

I happen to think it pertinent that you have posted previously about your non-union car-buying activities, and yet, here, post about how using charters are busting your union.

"Union for ME, but not for THEE."


************

I've not referenced a specific thread, but if you have a posting that refutes what I say, please show me and I will gladly remove my post--I do not wish to accuse you of doing something you did not do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. We can let the mods decide

I interpret this as a personal attack. You're doing that a lot lately. But don't worry. I know what to do.

[Radical Activist]

127. Call the hall monitor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9197402&mesg_id=9199513

[Catshrink]

70. What do you care about unions?

Your major theme here is that unions are bad. Let's talk about your hypocrisy. Claim to be a former teacher, nay a good teacher, yet you didn't take work home, you call other teachers whiners and hypocrits, and you clearly don't see the value of collaboration and collegiality. I'm so glad I didn't have to work with someone like you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Actually only teachers unions

The others seem to be okay to our 3rd grade class monitor law student.

[Catshrink]

78. We're Baaaaad to the Bone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djj7jW6ny2M

[defendandprotect]

116. Don't think anyone is complaining about anything being "union" or

"union-made" ---

the standards of car makers are set by the owners -- not unions!!

Same with schools -- teachers aren't designing the system -- elites are!

Nor do teachers have control over the funding and where the money goes -- elites do!

[defendandprotect]

85. It certainly is about "union busting" -- and the teacher's union is the largest

and a huge target --

Evidently, you're finding unions inconvenient?

What has done harm to our schools is underfunding and inappropriate funding through

property taxes which gives wealthier communities greater advantages in educating their

students.

Evidently, often CIA funding was hidden in our Federal school budgets -- as much as

50% of the school budgets!


Plus we've had 4 decades or more of right wing attacks on the schools --

[ibegurpard]

19. I honestly believe it's about more than just busting unions

but they have to bust the unions in order to make it happen.
Corporations want to control education and curriculum.

[laughingliberal]

22. Ding Ding Ding Ding! Winner! nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Busting the unions is just the first step.

[SoCalDem]

35. and it's also about real estate

The Charter schools call themselves "public", and slide into buildings that are already built by taxpayer money, pushing aside neighborhood kids who should have been entitled to use those schools.

[defendandprotect]

96. Excellent and interesting point ....

[defendandprotect]

95. Teacher's Union is the largest union .... highest we ever had was 39% unionization in America...

now down to something like 7% -- so obviously this is BIG for the elites/privatizers!

But I do agree that behind it is certainly CONTROL of curriculum -- and destruction

of public education --!!

[blondeatlast]

149. We have a winner! Exactly. nt

[Radical Activist]

121. There are union charter schools in Chicago.

And there are charters started by unions.
NEA will claim it's about busting unions and hating teachers because their agenda is being set by long-time teachers who want to preserve seniority based pay rather than merit based pay. The fixation on seniority pay and tenure doesn't serve many students or even many of their own members well.

[The Magistrate]

3. Union-Busters Are What They Are, Sir....

[Dawson Leery]

4. The Lottery is really fair way to get a better education.

:sarcasm:

[dkf]

8. Sad isn't it?

[Dappleganger]

5. "roadblocks that are put up mostly by the teacher's union"

Nice anti-union rant. Looks like you've bought into Gov. Christie's lies hook, line and sinker.

[dkf]

9. Geoffrey Canada was probably talking about his inability to get teachers to extend the schoolday by

An hour a day.

That wasn't Governor Christie. He didn't really address the unions.

[DeltaLitProf]

20. And of course that struck me as malarky given

. . . that every teacher I know does work well before and well after the bells ring. I smelled malarky nearly the whole time Mr. Canada was talking.

What I can never get these people to answer is this question:

If you bust the teachers' unions and teachers' salaries and benefits plunge further down (which of course they will as a result of the loss of collective bargaining), then how will that reverse the already nearly 50 percent five-year attrition rate for those entering the profession?

Won't it in fact make those who would be more likely to be good teachers LESS likely to choose the profession? Wouldn't it make those who will have their pay cut seek even earlier exists from the classroom?

They never want to answer that question.

[defendandprotect]

99. "Idleness is the beginning of all wisdom" ---

The school day is long enough -- it's enrichment of student's minds and lives

that we're short on!! And it's a LIBERAL education which provides that enrichment --

not testing vs teaching!!


Gov. Christie's right wing agenda is quite clear to everyone!

[HEyHEY]

16. Yeah, fuck them gay folks! THIS Is the civil rights fight.

Come on, man. This isn't about civil rights as much as it is about good management of education.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Amen

I am not as familiar with other institutions as I am with education. But yes, the management sucks. And we are blaming the workers, who have zero control over the management.

[defendandprotect]

102. Exactly!! -- and most of us thought that the right of LABOR to organize was a civil right---!!!???

[ecstatic]

134. Why can't both issues be a civil rights fight? nt

[DeltaLitProf]

18. So how do unions . . .

. . . talk Republicans into cutting taxes and keeping taxes on the rich low so as to force cuts to education budgets? I'd like that explained to me.

[ibegurpard]

21. Unrec

You're comparing corporate hijacking of public education to civil rights struggles?
:puke:

[laughingliberal]

23. Unrec. nt

[TexasObserver]

24. Unrec. A quality education for everyone is our goal.

THAT is the civil rights issue, a battle that has not ended. Ever since integration was mandated in 1954, those who have wanted to segregate students from the general population have used every trick in the book to do so. First, they simply refused to do it. A dozen years after Brown v. The Board of Education, many schools remained 100% segregated. As federal courts broke that strangehold racists held, integration became the way of the land.

The racists and those who like to segregate haves and have nots scurried to fill private schools, to create new ones, and to hide away from all those ordinary kids their children. For religious reasons, for racial reasons, for class reasons, segregation of kids was accomplished.

Magnet schools are a way to cherry pick the best students with the most motivated parents, and create little enclaves of success at great cost, both economic and social. As always, the weaker schools and students in them end up like a puppy relegated to hind teat. They struggle to get by, while everyone can polish up the magnet school stars and pretend they've created the template for change.

[stray cat]

31. Then achieve your goal! Because you are ignoring the poorer communities and denying them

A good education

[TexasObserver]

32. Don't mischaracterize what I posted.

I'm not ignoring poorer communities and I'm not denying them a good education.

But the window dressing campaign called magnet schools are. They give people who want to ignore the larger problem some schools they can hold up as examples as right wing successes. They don't solve the problem. They help cloak it behind a thin veneer.

[stray cat]

30. Education is civil rights -wealthy can choose where they live so they get good schools

Many in the middle class also choose where they live so they can get good schools. The poor do not have that fiscal freedom but few care whether their public schools educate - we care about middle class school districts, unions but not the poor who are excluded from competent public education. How many middle class progressives would choose to send their kids to public schools in poor distrust in Harlem oe the Bronx or rural Mississippi?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. It's not the schools these parents reject, it's the kids who attend these schools

We saw it repeatedly when a federal judge ordered a massive desegregation program here. New schools were built. Beautiful buildings. Magnet programs with awesome educational opportunities for kids. All part of an effort to reverse white flight and desegregate urban schools. But the same white parents who rejected the urban core by moving out of the school district weren't interested in bringing their children back to school where they had to sit next to kids who lived crime infested neighborhoods.

Until we fix the crime, poverty, homelessness and all the other things that cause people to abandon our urban care, we won't be able to desegregate the schools, no matter how wonderful we make them.

[defendandprotect]

107. Sounds more like a vote for re-segregating the schools ..... !!!

And that's exactly what has been going on in America --

Elites want an identifiable "non-white" slave force -- and depriving those of color

of education has always been the way --



Apartheid in Our Schools

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9197779

[CBR]

33. I agree with you. nt

[msanthrope]

39. You might like this article----

It's been pooh-poohed here because Hentoff likes to swing the political spectrum, but I think this Villiage Voice article about Black parents and the teacher's union might be of interest to you...

Black Parents vs. the Teachers' Union
Union intransigence hits a low point

In Harlem—as elsewhere in this city, state, and nation—there is a sharply rising struggle between teachers' unions and black parents. That dispute is over parental choice of schools, especially in regards to publicly financed charter schools which can, and usually do, refuse to recognize teachers' unions. Geoffrey Canada, whose Harlem Children's Zone is nationally known for making charter schools a working part of the community, recently sent out a rallying cry to black parents everywhere when he said, "Nobody's coming. Nobody is going to save our children. You have to save your own children."

SNIP

As a union man since I organized my first union at 15 during the so-called Great Depression at a Boston candy store that employed students on nights and weekends—and then helped unionize radio station WMEX in Boston where I became shop steward—I am plain disgusted at the low point that the union crusade against charter schools has reached. Dig this from an April 29 Daily News editorial: " perniciously turned the world on its head by complaining that, because charter schools are concentrated in poor minority neighborhoods, they segregate 'African-Americans and Latino students in a separate school system.' " Bill Perkins also makes this "segregation" charge.

As I've reported here, there are now more segregated public schools in big cities than when the Supreme Court ruled public-school segregation unconstitutional (1954). The betrayal of that decision began and continued long before there were ever charter schools, because of lower federal court decisions ultimately confirmed by the Supreme Court (Elena Kagan won't be asked what she thinks about it at the confirmation hearing).

My question to leaders of organized labor (including the other big national union, the National Education Association): Are these black parents stupid or so gullible that, seeing so many other parents mobilizing for charter schools, they go with the crowd?

http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-06-01/news/black-parents-vs-the-teachers-union/

[CBR]

43. Great article! nt

[msanthrope]

46. I think it captures the utter hypocrisy of the teacher's unions----crying "segregation"

about charters, and yet, doing nothing to improve schooling opportunities for minorities, and suggesting that minority parents who use the charter system are somehow the dupes of 'elites.'

[Catshrink]

48. Teachers in those schools give their all every single day.

That's all a teacher can do. "Schooling opportutnies" are an adminstrative and public policy issue - you can't hang that one on teachers or teacher unions as much as you want to. Your hatred of teachers and their representative bodies is misplaced. The teachers do their jobs in the communities you allude to - who doesn't do their jobs are parents, administrators, public officials, etc.

I don't remember if you have experience in education beyond that of a student. Have you ever been a classroom teacher? Do you understand the intricacies of the job? Do you understand learning and pedagogy? It's so easy to look in and pass judgement -- just remember that we in the trenches can spot a phony a mile away.

[msanthrope]

62. "who doesn't do their jobs are parents,"

Thank you--that encapsulates perfectly the stance that teacher's unions tend to have toward parents.

[Catshrink]

65. Where do you think we got that?

Do you think we pulled that statement out of our butts? No, it's based on years of experience. My students who do well and make a good effort have involved parents, those who don't give a rat's ass reflect the attitude of their parents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. In elementary school we have parents who can't manage to make their kids attend school

Several every year in every school where I work. It's unreal.

[Catshrink]

91. How can I get my kid on a schoolbus ?

Where do you live, ma'am?

Across the street.

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. That's a keeper

:rofl:

[JackDragna]

73. I'll even add to this..

..that teachers have typically been advocates for social services for the poor and for other progressive causes. They've also fought constantly for districts to spend more money on their school systems, have more paraprofessionals in schools and a suite of other things to make public schools better. Yet, this is constantly ignored by the public.

[Catshrink]

104. These actions aren't as sexy as raging against the big bad teacher unions

How dare those teachers negotiate for benefits and rights! Who do they think they are? As public servants they should be glad to have a fucking job and bow to the will of school board and state politics.

[JackDragna]

131. It's never easy to deal with the root causes of social ills.

..because it often involves fundamentally changing how society does something. It's much easier to blame someone and be led by the opinions of demagogues. The poverty rate in America is skyrocketing, budgets are getting slashed, there's a dwindling talent pool for teachers, but apparently we've become the central problem with education.

[defendandprotect]

109. It is "Apartheid in Our Schools" --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9197779

Elites, undeniably, want a slave labor force of identifiable uneducated citizens --

and depriving people of color educations has been their favored means of doing that.

[JackDragna]

61. It's not a matter of being stupid or gullible..

..it's a matter of those parents wanting the best education for their kids, but not realizing the institutions into which they wish to enroll their children are part of a systematic process to weaken the influence of public school systems. If the charter school supporters have their way, the guarantee of a good school for every child to attend will fall by the wayside. Instead, we'll have a handful of exclusive institutions in each city, run by private organizations, and all the rest of the kids who "don't measure up" (those with behavior problems, learning disorders, etc) will be assigned to educational gulags. I wonder what the parents of kids, black and otherwise, who don't get into charter schools will say about them when these schools take over public school spaces and produce an artificial segregation much worse than what the author bemoans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. +1

[msanthrope]

128. So, it's about Black parents 'not realizing' what they are doing?

Not seeing the larger picture?

[JackDragna]

129. Yes.

..though it's not limited to any single ethnic group. I don't blame anyone who's poor and is worried about their kids making a better life for themselves for trying to put their kids into what seems like a better situation for them.

[msanthrope]

138. Have you considered the possibility that "the poor" can make well-reasoned decisions that

differ from yours?

Or do you think that poor people's brains don't work as well as yours?

[JackDragna]

152. Have you considered the possibility...

..that your question is nothing more than a personal attack on me in your attempt to deflect legitimate criticism from people on this board regarding charter schools? Don't class-bait me. You're better than that. The problem is that going to the charter school model isn't a solution. It exacerbates the problems with American education, rather than making them better. And hey, since we've now devolved into personal attacks, perhaps it's you who's not bright enough to realize that creating a system of education that kicks out unions, provides little public oversight, allows for the expulsion of problem kids and turns kids into machine-like rote-memorization test takers is a bad idea. But, hey, what do I know? Keep class-baiting me. It'll get you far.

[msanthrope]

139. Have you considered the possibility that "the poor" can make well-reasoned decisions that

differ from yours?

Or do you think that poor people's brains don't work as well as yours?

[Catshrink]

40. Is that you, Arne?

[madfloridian]

71. There are concerns about Canada's schools. Obama plans them around the country.

Arne and Obama are spending hundreds of millions building Canada's schools around the country, even though a NY neighborhood is fighting back. I also address your civil rights' statement.


First, the 7 civil rights groups which lodged a complaint against Arne's ideas, pulled back from a press conference because the president and Arne shoved the press meeting by taking it over.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6516

"What's even more interesting is that a big event planned to release the framework this morning in conjunction with the National Urban League's annual conference was mysteriously cancelled (or postponed, depending on whom you ask) after a lot of press releases went out last week trying to drum up interest. The official explanation is that there was a "conflict in schedules." However, I can't help but wonder if the facts that President Obama has agreed to deliver a major education reform speech at the conference on Thursday, and that Duncan is scheduled to address the conference on Wednesday, had something to do with it. Surely the Obama administration was none too pleased to see that these groups planned to criticize his education reform agenda.

In addition, the National Action Network, led by the Rev. Al Sharpton, was listed on the press releases that went out late last week announcing the event as a supporter of the new framework, but in the framework released today, the group is conspicuously missing.

The groups that signed on to the framework want Duncan to dial back his enthusiasm for and "extensive reliance" on charter schools as a solution for turning around persistently struggling schools in urban areas. They also object to core components of his four models for turning around the nation's worst schools, saying that school closure and wholesale changes in school staff should only be used as a last resort. And they take sharp issue with the Race to the Top program, declaring that a reliance on competitive funding and hand-picking winners means the majority of low-income and minority kids, who may reside in the losing states, will not benefit from additional federal funds."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/harlem-childrens-zone-to-_n_735017.html

"In 1997, Geoffrey Canada founded Harlem Children's Zone, a comprehensive system of programs and charter schools designed to help Harlem children succeed. Children enter the program as infants and graduate college-bound. In just over 10 years, Canada revolutionized a broken education system in a community where poverty and drop out rates ran high.

The program's incredible success has made Canada one of the nation's leading advocates in education reform. Canada is profiled in Davis Guggenheim's education documentary, "Waiting For 'Superman.' "

Now, the federal government has announced Canada's program will be reproduced in 20 communities across America.

The New York Post reports,

President Obama has requested $200 million in his fiscal 2011 budget to help implement the 21 projects that are being planned this year, along with $10 million for additional planning grants."



http://dnainfo.com/20100904/harlem/residents-group-fights-plan-build-charter-school-st-nicholas-houses-park-space

"HARLEM— A plan by the Harlem Children's Zone and the New York City Housing Authority to build a charter school on open space at the St Nicholas Houses has sparked opposition from some residents.

Under the current proposal, 93,000 square feet of open space at St. Nicholas Houses, between West 127th and West 131st streets and Adam Clayton Powell Jr. and Frederick Douglass boulevards, would be sold to build a charter school for 1,300 students. West 129th Street, which now ends in a cul-de-sac before Frederick Douglass Boulevard, would also be opened up to through traffic. Construction is slated to start this year.

The president of the tenants association supports the $100 million plan, but residents William Danzy and Sandra Thomas say their group, Citizens for the Preservation of St. Nicholas Houses, has gathered 700 signatures from the more than 3,300 residents of the complex in opposition. At least one other opposition group has been formed.

Residents have not been fully consulted about the proposal, they say, and they are concerned about the future of public housing. More than 60 residents attended a Community Board 10 meeting earlier this week to express their concerns about the project.
Read more: http://dnainfo.com/20100904/harlem/residents-group-fights-plan-build-charter-school-st-nicholas-houses-park-space#ixzz10YhJjqkG

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. They dropped plans to do that in my city

There were several problems with Canada's plan. Can't remember them all because it's been a couple years ago. But one thing I remember is he wanted to target ONE zip code. Yet there are 5 or 6 zip codes that are struggling with poverty, etc here. The community leaders who brought Canada here couldn't agree on which zip code to target and how to justify ignoring the others. And they had no funding to do anything he proposed.

He struck me as a dreamer with an unrealistic agenda. I love what he wants to do and have said for years we need to create community schools that include all the services our kids need to thrive. But Canada wants to do this for only a select few. I can't support that.

[madfloridian]

90. Using taxpayer money for his dream.

Not a good idea.

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. And here, where taxpayers haven't supported the schools for 40 years,

the question was - WHAT taxpayer money?? LOL

[madfloridian]

108. Amazing how they are doing it. Just pushing right ahead...

hoping no one will notice.

[defendandprotect]

111. We've had a 40 year and more attack on wages and communities ....

especially those of people of color!

[Radical Activist]

125. You take a very patronizing attitude to those civil rights groups.

It's extremely condescending to suggest they backed down just because Duncan scheduled a press conference. I take them at their word that many of their questions and concerns were addressed. And linking to your own journal does not give your claim credibility.

[defendandprotect]

82. Teacher's Union is the enemy ... ???

What garbage --

Charter schools are the latest avenue to apartheid in our schools --

and increasing exploitation of children for profit --

not only of the testing companies, but for those intersted in privatizing public education!!

[Greyhound]

86. If these bloodsuckers were about education they would be pushing for the time-tested model

that has existed for well over a century. That being the education provided by places like the Phillip Exeter Academy, a model I might add, that the backers of this destruction all benefited from.
:kick: & U

[defendandprotect]

113. K&R for your post --

[Arugula Latte]

89. What a steaming load.

Unions aren't the problems at all. They are part of the solution.

[Ikonoklast]

118. Funny, when I read your posts they're all right-wing talking points.

Every time.

Unrec for anti-union bullshit.

[mkultra]

142. yup, his pattern is BASH:soft sell RW:BASH:BASH BASH: soft sell.

[Hannah Bell]

122. "the civil rights fight of our generation" -- gag. quoting the hedge funders, i see.

like those prep school grads know shit from civil rights, or care.

[KamaAina]

124. No, you do not.

What you hear is someone whose sincere beliefs are being cynically used by those who do, in fact, want to bleed public schools for profits. :eyes:

Maybe someone could ask the teachers' union -- which is, after all, composed of teachers -- what innovative ideas they have. In NYC, for instance, they've opened up their own charter: "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!"

[ecstatic]

130. I'm with him 100%... after seeing the huge disparities in public

schools (rich vs. middle vs. poor/ black vs. white) I was disgusted and hoping someone would take a serious lead in fixing this problem. That mother was absolutely right--but a lot of people on DU are so sheltered that they probably have no idea what she is stalking about. When the education system fails entire communities, then something is wrong and you can no longer just point the finger at students and parents.

[Hannah Bell]

133. lol. and high-stakes testing, destruction of unions, & charter schools run by private corps are the

answer to inequitable funding.

riiiight.

[ecstatic]

141. It's funny to you because you probably don't personally

know anyone who went to/or is currently going to a failing school.

[Hannah Bell]

143. yeah, that's the ticket. because it's allll about *me*. not the fact that every school

deform initiative, voucher initiative, charter initiative shows results no better & sometimes worse than public schools -- plus fraud & increased segregation by race, class, language & disability.

[Pisces]

135. There are a group of posters with an agenda. Unfortunely children in need are not the focus.

I agree 100% with your post. Most of us do not have a clue what it would be like to send our kids to those failing schools. The difference between jail and college isn't the reality of most posters on this
board.

[Angry Dragon]

136. Follow the money and you will

then learn why duncan and the rich want to control the schools

[elleng]

137. You are correct, and don't let the nay-sayers around here affect your pov.

:thumbsup:

[elleng]

140. dupe

[LWolf]

146. The teacher's union doesn't put up roadblocks to innovation.

At least, not to innovation that has to do with curriculum and instruction. Innovation that has to do with union-busting? Sure. But we don't need to bust unions to innovate. We just need to be less authoritarian. Teachers have all kinds of ideas about doing things differently. Those aren't the ideas that make it into politician's committees and the media.

Unfortunately.

[YvonneCa]

148. EXACTLY. Great post. n/t